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Why Islamic Radicals call us "The Great Satan", and some hope

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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 06:35 PM
Original message
Why Islamic Radicals call us "The Great Satan", and some hope
There are two reinforcing reason for this.

1.) FUTURE SHOCK - It is an old book, long out of print, but copies can be found on the book sites on the web. The premise is that for some people the changes of adjusting to the future are more difficult due to the speed of arrival of the future, (14th century to 21th century in two generations), and the adaptability of the culture. Islam is very ridgid and has difficulty adapting to the changes. Some people will rebel against the changes and try to go back to the unchanged world they knew. (Do we see any of that in our own national politics? - Rhetorical question.)

2.) MATERIALISM - From many of the posts that I have read I believe that most DUers do not understand the power and intensity of a deeply held religious belief. I was raised in an extremely fundamentalist denomination. No make up for women, going to any movie was a sin, evolution was the devil's teaching, Roman Catholics were the anti-christ, etc. You get the idea. Naturally I held those beliefs until later in my life I began to question them, and to think. (BTW - I am still religious, but have greatly modified my childhood teachings.) So, because I have been there, I understand how greatly the hold of a strong belief system can be. Further, the poor of any nation are usually far more devout that the wealthy, or even than the middle class. The poor are comforted by their religion in a world that offers them little other comfort. (That's also why the south is so conservative. Northern policies kept the south poor for almost 100 years after the war. Religion is usually conservative.) Also, the poor are usually less well educated than the wealthy and don't have the intellectual tools to think about their life with. Ignorance keeps them down.

The U.S., more than any culture in the world, is a materialist culture. No matter who is president, or what our foriegn policy is, our culture floods around the world like water from a busted dam. There is no escaping it. No laws can have much effect on that either. No amount of marches or demonstrations, or live protest art will change that. The fundamentalist Islamic leaders are seeing the young people listening to CDs, watching DVDs, drinking Coke, driving cars, wearing blue jeans, and (Horrors) having safe sex and only paying lip service to Allah. We are enticing them away from the path. That can not be permitted.

So, because we, the U.S., are the culture that brings about the most rapid changes, and because we are the culture that lures the youth away from virtue into godlessness, then we must be destroyed.

With such people there can be no reasoning. They, the radicals religious Islamic fundamentalists, will attack until they or we are dead.

Of course we have our own extremists and that doesn't help the situation any, but they would still hate us just as much if we didn't.

There is hope. They also hate their own gov't leaders, in all of their countries except in Iran, and previously in Afganistan. They don't think their leaders are pure enough. So they also throw bombs at their own gov'ts, as shown by today's bombing in SA. Since nobody can change the two forces I talked about, and since they will intensify, then so to will the terrorists. They will soon get even their own gov'ts angry at them, and then will begin true international cooperation to stop terrorism. When all the gov'ts of the world get serious about stopping terrorism and don't cut them any slack, then most terrorism will stop.

Of course, this means that the way to win the war on terror is by building international relationships and international cooperation. Occasionally a country that is really a state sponsor of and safe haven for terrorists may have to be taken down, but even that should be done in an international framework.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excuses, excuses, excuses
Edited on Sat Nov-08-03 07:24 PM by legin
The Arab world regard Western Society as a bunch of expansionist militeristic bastards, rather in the same way we regard Hitler, and they are damn right to do so.

19th century: Competing empires in Europe regard the Ottoman empire as the 'sick man of Europe' and as an oppotunity for one of them to make gains against the other competing empires. Russia continues its policy of pinching bits, britain starts annexing really big bits (Egypt).

1914: Ottoman empire backs wrong side in European War, and thus when the war ends it is decided to put the 'sick man' out of its misery by dismembering it. Occupation by british and the French.

1939 - 1945: a bunch of Europeans and Americans decide a part of Arab teritory will be used for as one of the theatres for one of their squabbles

1917-1948 and beyond: Europeans and Americans decide to dump a load of Arabs off their land to house a load of Russians.

1945 onwards: Europeans and Americans decide cost of occupation too high, so go for cheaper option of installing puppet stooges so that they can rip off assets of region for a decent price. Any signs of independace of thinking shown by anybody in Arab region is met with an invaison, Egypt 1956, 1967, 1973, Sinai Peninsula occupied for 20 years; Mossedeq dumped out of power in Iran; Libya bombed; Iraq supported in its war against the now fundamentalist Iran; Lebananon invaded and occupied for 20 years: etc, etc.

2001: bush* decides Arabs havn't been invaded for a while so starts invading them again.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. "Western society"
It is true that Muslim fundies hate the "West"(majority-white countries) but that is due to subtle racism. What exactly has Finland or Denmark done to the Arabs?

Since when is the Arab world against exapansionism and militarism? Their biggest heroes are first-class imperialists!
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Haven't heard about very much terrorism directed at Finland or Denmark
All of their tall buildings were still standing last time I checked too. Probably just a coincidence?

Don

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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. They are part of the "West"
Muslim fundies hate them too.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. One attack against u.s. home soil
is the greatest moral outrage against civilised values since the beginning of time itself.

100 attacks against Arab home soil is met by "Jeez, what are those friggin' sandniggers whining about now ?".
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Go back a little further
You might include that nasty bit of history where Muslims invade Europe as well.

When cultures interact they either get along or they clash. The West and the Muslim world have been clashing for hundreds of years. To merely include what happened last century is incomplete.

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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Those invaders are considered heroes in the Muslim world
Their hatred of the "West" is not based on a principled hatred of imperialism.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Add in our exploitation of the world and its resources
We waste oil and openly support the pigs who want direct control over their lands.

We use sweatshops and other means to exploit the peoples' of the world just so a few American CEOs can obtain greater wealth.

Those alone would make any civilized person puke up blood.

And you're right about the solution to the war on terror. But Bush doesn';t think like that. Hell, he doesn't think at all. He plays with his bombs. And that makes us Satan in their eyes. We look far more the terrorist to them and they are considering themselves as freedom fighters. Odd but true.
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. Sorry to see you have bought into this war on a tactic joke
Amazing that you already know who is responsible for explosions in Saudi
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. OK, I was assuming the usual suspects.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Small clarification:
The Great Satan refers not to the United States, but to

Reagan.

:evilgrin:
dbt
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. We were first called that when Carter was president.
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. We first heard it then, we were first called that after Iran cia coup
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. OK, I didn't know that. Thank You
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delhurgo Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent post. Two points:
1. They need to seperate Islam from State and give their people more freedoms. Otherwise they will continue to fail, get angry, and seek scapegoats - namely us and Israel. Somehow we've gotta help them to modernize. A tall task, indeed.

2. The terrorism will continue, but the war between Islam and the West is already over - and they know it. Like you've stated, our culture/values continue to flow into their countries like water through holes in a dam, converting their children, causing them to question their own beliefs and rebel. Thats why the true believers have resorted to such drastic actions. Its a last gasp though. Hopefully they'll figure it out like the communists did, before too much damage is done.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes. Skinnerian Psychology would say that too.
Before a non adaptive behavior extinguishes, it first intenifies, then crashes.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. Last year
I heard a talk in Portland by Karen Armstrong, the author of Fundamentalism and an authority on comparative religions.

She mentioned the "future shock" aspect of fundamentalism, saying that not everyone had benefited from the breakdown of traditional societies, and that on the rank and file level (as opposed to the leaders) fundamentalism was the response of people who had been hurt by social and economic changes.

However, she also had an interest comment on the epithet "Great Satan." She claimed that in Islamic theology, Satan is not the source of all evil, as in Christian theology. He has evil intentions, but is clumsy and clueless and doesn't always get his way. (People with more knowledge of Islam may want to comment.)

By calling America "the Great Satan," Armstrong claimed, the Islamic militants are saying that America is evil but bumbling.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Interesting. General agreement.
The "Future Shock" aspect took up an entire book by Alvin Toffler. I would certainly agree with what Ms. Armstrong said. It covers a whole lot more than can be touched on in a single post here.

Christian Theology's view of Satan isn't that different. From their viewpoint of believing in the ultimate victory of Islam, they would certainly have to believe that of us.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Satan in Islam...
...is an entity that tries his best to cause people to do evil things, and anti-Islamic things, such as drinking. I believe the phrase "Great Satan" was used in reference to America's cultural influence. He was whining about American cultural influence that was causing Iranians to do "evil" things, such as listen to music or talk to members of the opposite sex.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Thank you. Yes, Satan the tempter.
I didn't say it well, but that is exactly the thought I was aiming at. Thank you indeed.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Anytime
:)
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. Didn't you listen?! They hate our freedoms!!!
;-)
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