They fear Dean.

[Renew Deal]

I was at a political event in NY yesterday. It was about the organization for the petitioning process. I was talking to a long time DNCer. He worked on the McGovern campaign. He also said that he was a regional coordinator or chairperson for Gore (don't remember which one).

He told me that people are "scared" of Dean. He said these people were the DNC, including senators, congressmen, and other elected Democrats. The fear is that Dean is so polarizing and beatable, that it would ruin Dems in other races. They think that he would be a poor nominee. Basically he says that they feel Dean would be a 49-1 loser.

My thought, dump Terry M. He is as much part of the problem as anyone. Someone suggested Dean or Trippi should become DNC chair if Dean loses. I like that idea.

:scared:

[wtmusic]

1. And watch them

all jump on the bandwagon should Dean be nominated.

All the gladhanding will turn my stomach.

[Renew Deal]

2. Of course they will.

They will not have a choice. I wonder how he would handle it.

[Ficus]

3. Don't you want

the party to unite behind a nominee, esp. if that is Dean?

[Tansy_Gold]

20. This is what scares me about Dean, ficus.

. .. .that his supporters will prove more dangerous to the Democratic party and the democratic process than he will.

I've just run into two other Dean supporters, off this board, who have been so angry, so vicious in response to ANY hint of criticism of their candidate that I hesitated even to ask further questions regarding his stance on an issue that very much concerned me. Worse, I've run into many other Democrats who are working on other candidates' campaigns who have said they've encountered such animosity from Dean people that they can't even begin to work with them on Democratic events.

I don't think the question is whether or not the other candidates and their campaigns will support a Dean nomination, but rather it's whether or not the Dean supporters will let anyone else in.

I think Gov. Dean is correct in his sentiment -- if not his choice of words, and I know even that comment will draw flames -- that the winning candidate has to reach out to all kinds of people who will benefit from a Democratic administration. But I am finding more and more often that the people around him, the grassroots supporters who have flocked to his campaign and his ideals and even to his Washington outsiderness, are not so willing to be inclusive.

There isn't a single candidate in this Gang o' Nine :-) with whom I agree 100%. My choice will ultimately come down to who I agree with most closely AND who I think is electable, because I think it is absolutely imperative that the Democratic Party put out a nominee who is electable.

The polls frighten me. At least one shows Howard Dean leading for the nomination, but John Kerry having better numbers against awol. I don't know how the numbers break down by states, caucuses, delegate votes, etc. I still worry that if there isn't a clear leader after the primaries, with a first-ballot convention nomination in the bag, we will have lost valuable and unrecoverable time.

I worry about the vast amounts of money being spent in this primary, money that WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE to fight the GOP warchest when it really counts. It's being wasted, squandered, thrown away by all the candidates (except those who have none, and they're in debt and will have to raise the funds to pay off the debts and that money won't go against the bushnazi either). the issue of whether or not to accept matching funds isn't even relevant, I don't think, when you consider that all this money is being spent on the primary -- so who's going to be left with anything to contribute in September and October next year, especially in this piece-of-shit economy?

I don't like the animosity being generated in this campaign. I don't like it at all.

[Ficus]

37. Great point Tansy_Gold

Dean USED to be my #2 choice. Which living in a caucus state is important since I'm a Dennis K. guy, and he may not get enought support at my caucus site, and I may have to switch. Unfortunatley, since his so many of his supporters act in the above way in which you describe, Wes Clark is now my #2.

:dem: :dem:

[quinnox]

38. Fantastic post

I think you should start a new thread with this post, it nails it.

[haymaker]

39. Thanks for the "my wife's, cousin's, friend's dad account"

I'll just chalk that up to hearsay. Thanks for the effort on behalf of so many here.

[Tansy_Gold]

114. DU is nothing BUT hearsay, haymaker

We all post our personal experiences, first-hand or second or third. You don't know me, I don't know you, so like everyone on this board who doesn't know everyone else, we try -- or some of us do anyway -- to take each other on trust.

Each of us has an opinion, too, and we don't always agree with each other. But the uncivility, as pointed out at the beginning of this GD forum, has been getting out of hand. And maybe it's the heat of the campaign and maybe it's the dedication of the supporters, but I have personally been on the receiving end of some of the uncivil comments.

What I find more disturbing than ever, after reading back through the posts subsequent to mine, is that I don't get the feeling that the more "robust" Dean supporters would even welcome the support of the Kerry or Gephardt or Edwards people if it were offered. I get the sense, not only from reading DU but from working with other Democrats in person, that the Dean people (not necessarily Dean himself) would almost rather go it alone even if that means going down in defeat, than accept the help and support of others for whom Dean wasn't their first choice.

I have not seen a similar attitude from the other camps. From some individuals, yes, here and there, but it seems to me -- and of course there is the possibility that I'm wrong -- that there are more go-it-alone Deaners than Kucinichers or Kerryites or Clarkies.

And maybe this is because Dean has brought a lot of people in who haven't been activists before, who haven't been energized and motivated to participate in a campaign and they therefore do have a particular and personal loyalty to Dean, rather than or primary to any loyalty to the party or even any anti-bush sentiment. After talking to some Arizona State students who are active in the Kucinich campaign, I understood how they had become enthusiastic about his campaign because they felt he spoke to them and their issues in ways that other candidates didn't, and certainly the party didn't. They had far more loyalty to Kucinich than to the party, and some even said -- horrors, more hearsay -- that if Kucinich doesn't get the nomination, they probably won't volunteer for any other campaign and probably wouldn't even vote.

I pointed out in my earlier post #20 that there was at least one poll, I don't remember which one, that showed Dean leading for the nomination, but Kerry faring better against awol. No one seemed to respond to that, but I think even the Dean supporters ought to be at least interested in it enough to suggest an explanation. Does it mean that Dean has enthusiastic support within the registered dem community, but Kerry would draw more undecideds, more repukes, more greens, more of the supporters from Gephardt and Clark and Graham and Lieberman? I don't know. I'm not a pollster, and I'm not a statistician.

I want the asshole out of the white house. I will vote for just about any Dem -- including Lieberman, if I have to -- who will oust the squatter. I will campaign for the Dem nominee, whoever it is, and I will do so enthusiastically, yes, even Lieberman.

But it bothers me enormously, given the almost universal desire to see the bushnazis removed from power, that there is all this animosity, all this bitterness, all this antagonism and exclusion right here on DU. Maybe that scares me more than anything.

[PVnRT]

45. Animosity is being generated

by all sides. Why blame Dean for it alone?

[Ficus]

54. DEAN=CULT

to many people who support him. Not saying all of them, but more so than any other campaign out there.

[Capn Sunshine]

62. I can't help but notice

you post this comment in every Dean thread

[Ficus]

91. actually

I've posted it 2 times. But I could post it 1000000x and it'd be true.

[Hep]

63. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

Yes, for some people it is totally a cult. And no one gets more of a kick out of that than those of us in the Dean camp who get to watch them flail about! Comedy aside, it is troubling when new people get turned off by the rabid support.

But I think there are more wacky Dean supporters because there are more Dean supporters. I don't know how else to put it. Whethre or not Dean has a higher PERCENTAGE of wackos, I don't know. The Kucinich folks are pretty wacky too.

[wtmusic]

66. He's so popular he can't be right

:eyes:

[Ficus]

99. I didn't make any judgements on

right or wrong. Nor even on popularity. Just on the way some Deaniacs handle critical comments of their guy. Some just can't seem to take it without taking it personally...:cry: Dean is not a god who can do no wrong. Nor are ANY of the candidates.

[Ficus]

93. This is probably the most sensible explanation

I've heard without being attacked for it. Thank you. Dean needs more intelligent supporters like you.

I'm mostly a Dennis K. guy, and yeah, some of those folks are WAY wacky.

[Hep]

98. It's all good

I know we agree on core issues. I'm really tired of playing that anti whatever game. And I'm tired of getting in trouble with the mods!

[wtmusic]

105. If people get turned off by rabid support that's their problem

I thought we were talking about the candidate, not how fun it was to join the campaign.

[Renew Deal]

69. I have thought this and heard it....

from my boss. Some Deaniac was trying to recruit him. He said that it's like he is in a Cult. This has been thrown around before.

[haymaker]

75. ANTI-DEAN=BUSH SUPPORTER

One idiot statement deserves another.

[Ficus]

95. KUCINICH=SPACE ALIEN

Here's another one.

Keep in mind I said it's a cult for MANY Dean people, not all.

[LuminousX]

80. Oh Yeah!

Please, don't use the word cult. It only makes you look ignorant.

[Ficus]

92. Call me what you want

but certain Dean supporters drive others away rather than attract those to him. Not my problem, it's yours Deaniacs...

[Classical_Liberal]

109. Kucinich supporters have been most fanatical in their

criticism of Dean. They are saying he was pulling a Bob Jones U now. On the other hand I personally stuck up for Kucinich when the DLCers were berating him for his 'antibusiness extremism'. Particularly in reference to opposing the the privitisation of utilities, and I stuck up for Clark when Kucinich people were calling him War criminal.

[Ficus]

103. Oh Yeah!

That Kool-Aid Man graphic is about the funniest thing I've seen all day!

[Capn Sunshine]

59. I guess you weren't around in 91 then

or 87, the fractiousnes of the candidate organizations was just as bad.

You don't think the repubs felt the same way when W steamrollered all those other candidates? Do you even remember whatthey did to MC CAIN after he actually won a primary?

No it's always about little fiefdoms that little minded party functionaries want to protect.

Next thinh you know, they are posting on DU about what a threat to the party so-and so is.

I wish folks would just let this happen without internal acrimony, but that has never ever happened in the history of politics dating back to the tribal conflicts of the Cro Magnons.

[LuminousX]

78. I got gut punched by a Kucinich supporter

I wouldn't expect such violence from them, but wow, she really packed a wallop.

[Renew Deal]

87. Was it Tinoire?

She's got some fight in her.

[Ficus]

97. Wow!

How did you set her off?

[Classical_Liberal]

110. Dean supported Afghanistan

Tiniore is pacifist. Many dean supporters were just against the Iraq stupidity, because it had nothing to do with Al Qaeda.

[mzmolly]

104. Every one has obnoxious supporters. Dean gets attacked here more then any

one else, thus the 'myth' that his supporters are "different." We are not.

[wtmusic]

23. Absolutely, and it will happen

What I don't appreciate is Al From, Bruce Reed and (behind the scenes) Terry McAuliffe thinking they have the right to choose the Dem nominee over the people.

The DLC spin is disgusting. They should be listening, not preaching.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

35. Of course, we'll all support the candidate who wins

and we'll stay with the ship as it goes down, what else are we going to do?

[Guaranteed]

60. These people are cowards.

I'm sick of them and their "walk-all-over-me" attitudes.

[bevenro]

89. Dean letter on Massachusetts Dems website

OK...this is NOT a DIRECT reply...but they wouldn't let me post (yet), so I figured it's close.

There's a big fat letter from Dean on the Mass. Democratic Party's website (www.massdems.org). It's legit, since they have on the site that they requested letters from all the candidates, but I bet the Kerry crew is really loving it..check it out. Maybe it'll entice the other candidates to pay some attention and get in touch.

take a look...some leadership doesn't seem afraid of dean

[vi5]

4. I really hate that argument....

"they are afraid of him". I don't care who it's used about, it's just silly.

And its especially silly about Dean. He'll have my support if he is the nominee, but there is no doubt in my mind that they relish the thought of him being the nominee. I'm confident that they ahve a ridiculous amount of stuff in their arsenal that they could use to smear him.

I'm confident that he can and will fight back, and that's a positive thing. But there is no doubt in my mind that they don't fear him.

[Renew Deal]

7. Those are his words...

He actually said that.

[vi5]

16. Sorry .....had to re-read your post....

I thought you meant Bush/repubs were afraid of Dean, which I can almost guarantee they are not.

If you mean the DLC/DNC then yes they are, because like a lot of people who aren't in any way affilliated with or in favor of the DNC/DLC, they are afraid that if Dean is the nominee we will get pummelled.

[Renew Deal]

17. DNC

DLC I don't know about.

[On the Road]

19. I Think a Lot of Centrists Fear Losing

In fact, there's a lot of fear in the air among long-term Democratic politicans. I see this in candidates like Gephardt.

Losing the presidency, the Senate, and various other races have been a blow. Regardless of what they say, people like Al From and Terry mcCauliffe are desperately trying NOT to lose. But just like in football, it's not a very good game plan.

From the perspective of a lot of centrists, Dean is accident waiting to happen. And he'll bring down the party with him. I just don't agree.

A winning candidate needs to energize, give hope, command the grounds of the debate, and win over swing voters. It's a matter of chutzpah, of art, and of will. Despite the accusations of negativity, Dean is the only one I can see doing this outside the core Democratic base.

[blm]

57. Dean IS the most centrist candidate.

Just because the corporate media is selling him as a liberal Democrat doesn't mean he is. They have their proBush agenda and they are sticking to it.

[Guaranteed]

65. You're correct.

People keep forgetting these things. Like those Deanies jumping ship, over to the Clark campaign. These people are just afraid. They're letting fear take them over.

[dave29]

53. They are afraid of everything

which is why they LOSE

[NewYorkerfromMass]

83. Dean is not afraid to lose

which is why he will.

[dave29]

94. I'm truly sorry you think so

I wholeheartedly disagree.

[wtmusic]

107. Fortunately most Dems

at this point disagree

[Forkboy]

108. whaaaaaaaa?

:silly:

[Hep]

5. Did he say

whether or not the DNC would withhold support if he won the nomination?

[Renew Deal]

9. No

but I can't imagine they would.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

6. if Dean loses?

oh c'mon lets not talk about that. we'll have bigger problems than who will be the next DNC chairman if our greatest hope is not even supported by the current DNC chairman.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. This Is Weak BS, IMO

Higher-ups like this have a choice: they can endorse someone else.

If they don't endorse anyone, and just make mealy-mouthed, behind-the-scenes comments like these, then that's just fucking lame, IMO.

If people want to call out Howard Dean, then at least have the guts to do it to his face.

DTH

[returnable]

14. I agree...

Lack of leadership, thy name is DNC.

[Capn Sunshine]

79. Hell Yes!

what he said

[meegbear]

10. If we are going to dump Terry M. ...

it shouldn't be because he's not ordering the other candidates out so dean can be the only one. It should be if he doesn't produce the results for the Democrats, both presidential and congressional.

[Renew Deal]

12. I want to dump him...

because of results. I am not a Dean supporter. I am your local friendly Clarkie. :)

[lameone]

11. This is true, but vice versa

Because I have an extremely conservative Bush* loving coworker who has talked with me about Dean. His philosophy on politics is that with the U.S. political spectrum split as evenly as it is, Dean is easily "electable". He says he is the most worried about Dean, because Dean comes across as a genuine, down-to-earth guy who will motivate people to his cause. What's even more amazing is my coworker says that Dean's politics doesn't even really matter, but that is charisma could trump Shrub's in the general election.

[Renew Deal]

15. Motivation... Good point

I was speaking with someone else last night. He is the head of Veterans for Clark. I asked him if we were going to keep fighting till the election no matter the nominee. He said YES. It's part Dean, but it's mostly anti-Bush*.

Disclaimer: I will fight for us no matter the nominee until November.

[Guaranteed]

68. That's right.

That's exactly right. Dean's most important characteristic is his integrity- people can see his sincerity, and it motivates them. He's someone they can really believe in.

[Minstrel Boy]

13. Dean is "polarizing" and Bush is what, a "uniter"?

I hate hearing this. The election is virtually guaranteed to be the most polarized in American history, and it has nothing to do with the Democratic nominee.

[ethimtemp]

25. What gets me is.....

These so-called "scared of Dean/Dean is another McGovern/He's too polarizing" pundits make out like Bush is such a strong candidate. He isn't!!

Folks just need to commit to backing whoever wins the nomination. period. Bush is weak on so many fronts that any concerted effort to contrast our candidate with what Bush is doing should be a no brainer.
Well........with the exception of GOP Joe ;)

[Guaranteed]

73. Yes. The country IS polarized.

What Dean is trying to do is bridge that gap.

These damned DLC people refuse to see that the way to bridge the gap isn't to try to "play ball" with the Republicans. The way to bridge it is to change the game entirely by retooling the Democratic party's positions, by showing leadership, and by restaking claims on issues that EVERYONE can get behind. Like health care, jobs, wages.

THAT is the key. PERIOD. If the DLC doesn't get it, they need to shut the FUCK up and GET OUT OF THE WAY.

[tsipple]

18. Of Course They're Afraid

In just a few months, Dean's mailing list is bigger (and much more effective) than the entire Democratic Party's.

They don't understand what's going on. It's like Bob Dole trying to figure out who this guy Ronald Reagan is (1980).

[Cogito]

22. Dean campaign is like McGovern's

This is not like Dole trying to figure out Reagan. It is like democrats figuring out McGovern. It was the McGovern campaign that revolutionized politics last time around by using direct mail solicitations so effectively. They raised alot of money from small donors, had an energized base etc. We know how that one came out.

[Hep]

32. Great logic!

Your partial recollection of history is great fun to read.

In your post you make it sound like his energizing th base and raising money from individuals had something to do with how his campaign turned out. You seem to be asserting that Because Dean is like McGovern in the sense that he energizes the base and raises money from me, that he will suffer the same fate.

Care to explain exactly how you come to this conclusion?

I'll point out for you that McGovern was anti-war. Not anti a given war, but anti-war in general. Dean isn't. Please explain your intriguing logic to me.

[Classical_Liberal]

111. That isn't true either

McGovern has stated that he is not antiwar in general in several recent opeds. He was a horrible campaigner. Dean isn't. Dean is appealing to people who are not blind supporters of war, but the sure as heck aren't campus radicals either.

[Capn Sunshine]

77. I'm noticing a lot of talking points here

from fairly new posters. I always wonder who they work for.

{i]ergo sum

[Cogito]

21. exactly

I fear Dean's candidacy for the same reason. Democrats ought to be scared because losing this time means total, unfettered control of government by Republicans. Think about that. If that does not scare you then I don't know what would.

[spooky3]

27. That certainly was my concern in the last election as well.

[quinnox]

24. They are right to fear a Dean nomination

Dean would unfortunately most likely not only lose to Bush, but cause the Dems to lose even more Senate seats, and the GOP would have a total filibuster-proof domination.

Dean is a disaster in the making, if he is nominated I will have no reservations about saying I told you so when Bush is re-elected. Of course, it won't do much good then, and I hate to think how all the Deanies would feel, knowing they were wrong all along about Dean's chances.

[wtmusic]

28. And I hate to think how you will feel

when Dean is elected, knowing how wrong you were about Dean's chances...
;-)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

84. Your unwillingness to contemplate a converse result

is what scares us.

[wtmusic]

115. Likewise!

;-)

[AP]

26. How your paragraph 3 follows from paragraphs 1 and 2, I don't know.

Long time Democrats who know about winning and losing think Dean is a loser. Get a clue.

[Renew Deal]

30. I know I worded it funny.

I should have written that as an aside I would also like to dump Terry. It is kind of random.

[AP]

31. "Random" logic is the only kind that can make sense of Dean's candidacy.

No?

[haymaker]

40. Who's your guy or girl again, AP?

I have seen you bash Dean many times but I cannot for the life of me remember who you support. Not Bush right?

[AP]

56. If I supported Bush, would I be criticizing Dean?

Really. Would I?

[haymaker]

61. I say again, who do you support?

Just want to know. You know, for a point of reference.

As for critizing Dean, uh, yeah you might support Bush.

[AP]

86. From my criticisms of Dean, who do you think I support?

I think Dean's bad on taxes, bad on race, and has a biography that's way to close to Bush's, and I think his campaign strategy (a libertarian running as a progressive) is terrrible.

Take the opposite of those positions and tell me, who do you think I'd like?

[haymaker]

88. I give up, who?

Do you mind just saying it?

[Eloriel]

34. Yeah, and they thought a lot of other things about Dean

that turned out to be dead wrong too.

Get a clue yourself, friend.

Eloriel

[wtmusic]

36. Those same long-time Democrats who gave away

our majority in Congress? Get a clue.

[RetroLounge]

42. Long time Democrats who know about winning

Well, they must be VERY old if they remember winning anything besides Clinton's elections.

[PVnRT]

49. And OBVIOUSLY they're right

I mean, their super-psychic powers have given them insight into the future, so they know exactly what is going to happen. You'd think they could get me some useful information, like, say winning horses at the track, or something like that.

Prognosticators are full of shit, always have been, in every walk of life. Half the time, they're just guessing.

And I find it funny that the ABD crowd whines and complains constantly that they are attacked by Dean supporters, yet show up with snide comments like "get a clue." Maybe you yourself should try picking one up.

[Guaranteed]

76. Lately they know a lot about losing.

See my post #73 above.

[spooky3]

29. If the DNC had any leadership ability

they might want to talk to the OTHER candidates about coalescing behind one or two DNC approved types, with the others that the DNC would otherwise like, dropping out. Then, they could more quickly and more cheaply see whether their "vision" will be supported by the citizens.

[JNelson6563]

33. Gee I get a bit of a different view from

Senate aide friends.

The fear is there alright but not the sort your DNC pals talk of. Terms like "establishment" came up in the discussion re: fear of Dean. Also "realization", "coat-tails", "underestimated" and "acceptance".

I know those I speak to have no horse in the race and stand to lose little or nothing regardless of who gets the nom. The views are of interested observers and they are very interesting.

Nice to get inside info from unbiased but interested parties.

Julie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I Could Never Bet Against My Own Football Team-The Dolphins...

my own party, the Democratic party but I fear 2004 is going to make 1972, 1984, and 1988 look like picnics...

I fear we will be down to forty two or forty three senators,one hundred eighty or so representatives and seventeen or eighteen governors...

Then we will be flooded with reactionary legislation, reactionary jurists, and reactionary rulings...

This is the darkest time for the Democrats since the post Grover Cleveland period....

[haymaker]

43. Then I got a good idea for you,

bash the shit out of Dean. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I'm Not A Basher.... Never Bashed Any Candidate....

Just a seeer....

The party's over....

At least for a generation...

It sucks....

It's a Greek tragedy....

[haymaker]

46. That's fine, the party's over.

Evolution is slow. When do the babyboomers start collecting SS again?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. 2010, 2015

I just think the party has profound problems that transcend who our candidate is in 04...

[haymaker]

58. That may be true,

but becoming the Republican Party is not going to attract voters.

Keep this in mind, most people don't vote. We don't know what would happen if most people did. Only 70% are registered. Usually and lately, less than 50% of those show up. Why? Well they think it soesn't make any difference who they vote for. So becoming even more like the GOP is not going to help the Democratic Party. They need to become less like it and see if it sticks.

[Skwmom]

48. Plus he'll help silence the Democratic minority in Congress

and leave the Democratic party in tatters. If the Democrats can't get their act together and nominate a winner when there is so much at stake, it really says something about the party. With Dean Rove gets a lot of bang for the buck.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. We Shouldn't Make This About One Candidate...

The party is in so much trouble....

[PVnRT]

51. Oh, please

Explain to me how Dean is guarenteed not to win. I dare you. I'll wait.

[Hep]

67. Your magic 8 ball and mine conflict

I just asked if Dean's nomination will result in bad things for the party, and:

[Capn Sunshine]

52. Sure Sounds like you were talking to a Lieberman guy

Hey, Zell Miller has advice for all of you guys on how to vote.

[DrFunkenstein]

72. Deanie Logic

If they're against Dean, it must be the PNAC BFEE Bush-lite centrists. I know plenty of anti-war people that think Dean is an arrogant little man with no chance of winning. And I don't consider Clark supporters centrist.

[haymaker]

81. More negative points for the Doctor.

Good job.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. Lieberman's A Loser Too.....

NT

[blm]

55. Matches internal polls I heard about. Dean at the top weakens

the WHOLE ticket.

Some of his more selfish supporters will not care, though. They are too narrowminded and new to politics to understand what that means.

[Hep]

64. Yeah, we're evil

for wanting our guy on top!

I'm going to start Underachievers for Dean, dedicated to getting Dean the SECOND place finish in the primaries! Thanks for the inspiration!

[blm]

96. I said SOME...if it rings true for you, well, that's your call.

I'm not making that call on individuals.

Some of those new to political activism don't understand about the top of the ticket and what it means to the rest of the ticket. Dean's fine for those in safe seats. Not so fine for those in competitive seats.

[wtmusic]

106. LOL you mean about Gore being the top of the ticket

and the Dems' rousing success in 2002?

[Guaranteed]

85. We

NEED SOMETHING NEW. Don't you get it??? THIS....ISN'T....WORKING.

We have LOSERS running things right now. ENOUGH!!!!!!!!

[blm]

100. You'll have entire Dem tickets losing

thanks to that attitude. Cold comfort for 2005.

[Guaranteed]

101. Too late! nt

[Scott Lee]

70. Dean scares the mud out of Statists who run the DNC

..and that's a good thing. It's time to overturn the whole lot of them and do an ideological cleansweep of a losing strategy.

It never ceases to amaze me, how conservative the ruling elite of the Democratic Party can be. They bitch and rail against conservative rethugs, but cling to that same conservatism themselves in their leadership. Can they even see that this has been a failing formula for Democrats over the past many years?

McAuliffe grins like a cheshire cat as his party continues to get its ass handed to them by the rethugs. Congressional embarrasments like Lieberman, Gephardt and Kerry continue to assist in the shredding of constitutional responsibility when it comes to the waging of war, then have the temerity to pretend they never sanctioned it during the Democrat contenders debates. Is it any wonder the DNC is the laughing stock of political debate in this country?

If nothing else, Dean has done a huge service to the Democrats by slapping some sense into them. He is, in his own way, attacking and dismantling the sickening statism and undefined mission statement of the party. He is the Kali-Ma of an infirm organization; challenging it, taking it apart, dancing on the bones of its disease and making the way for it's rebirth.

It seems to me that any real Democrat would relish a chance to cleanse and revivify the party. Am I wrong here?

[DrFunkenstein]

71. So Typical - This Is All Terry McAuliffe's Fault?

Whenever Deanies hear something they don't like, they single out a bogie man to set up in effigy. This is not about Terry - its about the whole friggin' party knowing that Dean will amount to enormous fundraising for the GOP AND a lost Presidency by a anti-war, civil union Governor of about 600,000 people.

http://www.gop.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/TLvideo2.htm

A couple months of Dean looking like a maniac? I'm sure America will fall head over heels.

[Renew Deal]

74. Not Terry's fault.

I should have worded that better. My fault.

[haymaker]

82. More negative points for the good Doctor.

Good Job!

[bevenro]

90. test

test--ignore this...I'm new here....wondering if my other post went thru..

[JackRiddler]

113. This whole thread

is nonsense! Honestly. Spin after spin. Invented categories. Labels. Deanies this, Clarkies that. Blah blah.

It is coming from the perception, now widespread on all sides (even among Clarkies) that Dean has locked up the nomination. This may or may not prove faulty, but it is certainly the strong flavor of the week.

You would see the same rhetoric applied to any of the other candidates, if they were perceived to have swen it up. You'd be hearing variations on the exact same themes - that a horrible mistake had been made - that this guy is a sure loser because because because - that professionals say he'll blow it - etc. etc.

Deal with it: the game is called RISK, for a reason! The adversary will ALWAYS go for the jugular. From the Bush side you will hear horrible things about the nominee, whoever he is, and when you do, don't imagine it would have been different with another nominee.

Any one of the viables (top tier) can win against Bush, and any one can lose. And the main determinant is almost certainly going to be Dubya & his crew. By this time next year, they will have imploded (or been imploded by the CIA). Or they will have successfully turned the Chimp back into God-King.

The results will almost certainly be pre-determined. I think the most likely variant is that Bush will be enormously unpopular, for many reasons. His "shield of protection" has been seriously scratched up, the elites are turning against him, the CIA is after him, and besides, any logical self-interested person can see he is failing on many fronts. All he has left is his monied interests, which can go a long way on its own of course.

Fact is, Dean seems close to locking up the nomination for a reason. One reason is surely that he is at least as "libertarian" (in the classic sense of individual liberty, not the modern conservative perversion of unlimited rights for corporations) as he is "progressive," and this is a good thing! (Libertarian ain't no dirty word to me, sorry.) You want him to capture undecideds, don't you?

Another reason is that he really has mobilized people who yesterday didn't have a hope, and he did so by going for the Bush jugular.

He is taking the key risks. What do you think the flag flap was about? It may have been a poor move, but it was active, strategic. Do you realize how important that is?

You cannot win this game by hoarding your chips!

This is a very good instinct, and the question is whether he learns and gets better as he goes along. My impression is, he does. Never mind how he "looks." Fer chrissakes, look at how Dubya looks (and smirks), and so many people call him "a good man"! These things are intangible... you cannot say how people will react to him when they first see him (most people have yet to "first see him," by the way). There will simply be risk.

Now spin that wheel. Rien ne va plus!

--------

Finally, the "cult" aspects would apply to anyone. Step back and see it: so many people are looking for a leader to fill whatever they lack inside. They are everywhere. This is a near-universal phenomenon, not just in politics, you see it in families, in relationships, in classrooms and gangs, at workplaces, even in temporary situations like parties. Pointless to complain about it in this context, as opposed to any other. Clark is waaay cult, Kucinich is soooo cult, even sorry old Gephardt is cult. (Only Joe lacks a cult, so far, since the potential members of that cult all left for the neocons long ago.)

[DrFunkenstein]

116. The Cult Rocks!

"So many people are looking for a leader to fill whatever they lack inside."

Actually, I'm looking for a leader to fill what I believe a President should be. I have enough non-political heroes to fill my lacks. If I had the courage to write like Gabriel Garcia Marquez, for instance. Or play trumpet like Miles.

I have a pretty practical relationship to Kerry. I think he is right for the job. I think the job is important. Hence, my efforts.

On the other hand, the "he can do no wrong" people around here have some issues to work out. I'm just glad Dean is not asking people to put on Nike's to go ride the comet, because it would get very quiet around here.

<>

PS - Dean has the race locked up? He has a marginal percentage of a 9 person race. And many of the candidates have a less than postive relationship with him. Hardly a lock.

[Larkspur]

112. The only DNC/DLC folks who should be afraid are...

the primary architects of the Nov 2002 election debacle, which was not designed by Dean. These folks deserve the boot in their fanny.

[Hippo_Tron]

117. You kind of have to jump on the bandwagon if he gets nominated

Or Bush will get re-elected.