Now I know why Democrats lose and lose and lose.....

[virtualobserver]

The ban on partial birth abortions that recently passed and was signed
by Bush was pretty depressing to me.

It was a clear example of Republican issue dominance in American politics. They take a rare event that few people find to be pleasant, like partial birth abortions or flag burning, or symbolic issues like the preservation of the "right" to fly the confederate flag and they base their entire campaign on that.

Finally, someone like Howard Dean stands up and speaks to white southerners and tells them that they should stop voting based on the confederate flag, and vote for someone who will take care of their economic future.

So what is the reaction of the Democratic establishment?

1. We don't want those voters.
2. Howard Dean is race insensitive.

Rather than join the attack on Republicans for trying to manipulate voters with this issue, the Democrats instead play directly into the hands of the Republican strategists.

I don't get it...Why do the Democrats keep losing with this brilliant strategy?

[Guaranteed]

1. You are correct, sir.

Hit the nail on the head.

[Bread and Circus]

2. I see it very different from you...

I think his statements yesterday were the worst
possible thing he could have done. If that is his
idea of a "Southern Strategy" then we are doomed.

[virtualobserver]

10. the only "doomed" "Southern Strategy'" is ......

the ‘‘I don’t want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks,’’ strategy from people like Gephardt.

[Q]

26. But the question should be asked:

- Why did he even HAVE to mention confederate flags and pickup trucks? It makes it look as if he's 'pandering' to yet one more special interest group.

- Democrats should try to appeal to ALL Americans. Such polarizing rhetoric has no place in Democratic politics.

[virtualobserver]

32. he mentioned it because the point of his statement was that the focus...

of Republicans was on things like the flag, and he wanted to shift the focus to economic issues. His point wasn't merely to mention economics.

[sangh0]

35. Spinning

Dean wasn't talking about Republicans. He quite clearly said he was focusing on getting the votes Democrats. And Dean specifically denied that they are focused on the Confederate flag.

[virtualobserver]

45. he WAS talking about the way that Republicans manipulate that issue

and get people who should be voting Dem. to vote Repub instead.

[sangh0]

53. Then again, why mention the confederate flag?

It seems obvious to all but some Dean supporters that Dean's use of the confederate flag DISTRACTED from the point he was trying to make. And yet, they continue to argue that not only was there nothing wrong with it, but that the statement will HELP Dean.

It was a mistake to mention the confederate flag. It was SO stupid mistake that even Dean publicly says so. But some will still argue that it's going to help Dean.

[Eloriel]

59. Yeah, it distracted from the point he was trying to make

because people insisted upon taking the one phrase completely out of context and making a big, fucking issue out of it.

On its own, in context, it's not at all distracting. In fact, it gets the attention of the very people people he intended to reach.'

Dean didn't say stupid, he said clumsy. It's clear from your comment that YOUR interest in this is merely to put him in a no win situation: he was excoriated when he wouldn't apologize, and now that he did, he's excoriated again.

Why do you imagine you can have it both ways?

Eloriel

[sangh0]

61. *Gasp* You mean politicians took advantage? I'm SHOCKED!!!

If Dean is too dumb to realize the possibility that his words would be twisted, and instead fell right into it with his careless rhetorici (and it's not the 1st time for Dean) then how is he smart enough to be President?

Do you think the politics will stop immediateely after Election Day 2004?

Why do you imagine you can have it both ways?

I've consistently said it was a stupid statement. You, on the other hand have tried to argue that "Yes, it distracted from his point", but Dean didn't make any errors in saying it. Dean was wrong, but Dean was right.

[sendero]

87. just what we need....

... another mealy-mouthed pink tutu punk who runs every sentence he is about to utter through the "how can idiots twist this" filter.

No thanks.

[blm]

76. Dean was remarking on his NRA support to the reporter, and NOT

discussing race relations at all. He switched the reason for his remarks. The parrots followed.

[Hep]

90. It would be nice

if you could respond to my request for more information. It would be even better if you could refrain from making this claim until you do.

For months Dean used the confederate flag/pick up comment in reference to talking about race. According to your allegation, this is an instance in wihch he used the reference in regard to something else.

Can you please sho wme the source of your information that Dean changed the subject?

[blm]

98. All day yesterday and today

he has been on tv saying he made clumsy remarks about the flag when he was just trying to start a discussion about race relations. Many of his supporters here have posted the same.

Except, he made his clumsy remark in support of his NRA stance, NOT about race relations as he is now claiming. And using his past remarks from Feb. to confuse people about his intent.


 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>> 
 

[rucky]

81. Is he pandering or is he polarizing?

mutually exclusive, aren't they?

unless, of course, he's pandering to a group we don't want to have around.

But I don't think he was pandering at all. He wasn't being dishonest, he was saying "I'm not like you, but I want your vote." And the common ground he found is healthcare.

[alwynsw]

15. First things first.

The whiners need to take remedial English so that they can identify a metaphor.

Secondly, let's get on about substantive matters rather than looking for offense where none exists.

Get over it, folks.

[sangh0]

21. Tell that to those uppity blacks

who are always whining about the Confederate flag. First, it was about how their lives were for sale. Then, it was about how they weren't allowed to vote. Now it's the Confederate flag. When will those "whiners" learn that they should just "get over it"?

[virtualobserver]

25. Yep, the Republicans have won.

Think about the flag...white southerners...think about the flag....
Think about the flag...black southerners...think about the flag....

Don't come together over economic issues, that might get Democrats elected. It is much better to have Republican Governors and Senators and Presidents. Only then can progressive policies be pursued.

[sangh0]

34. The irony

of accusing others of engaging in defeatist policies while insisting "The Republicans have won" 12 months before the election. Your argument is so weak it needs the rote repetition of your slogans and the invented justifications like "Don't come together over economic issues" as if anyone said that.

[virtualobserver]

40. not invented since that was the point of Dean's statement.

Dean has been saying this for months.

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Dr. Howard Dean

DNC Winter meeting

February 21, 2003

He has said variations of this many times in the interim.

The republicans have won (the argument) as long as the issue is discussed on their terms.

[sangh0]

49. Yes, invented, and add disingenous to the list

Earlier, you said "Don't come together over economic issues, that might get Democrats elected. It is much better to have Republican Governors and Senators and Presidents. Only then can progressive policies be pursued."

In that statement you were characterizing/inventing the opinions of progressive Dems. I pointed out that no progressive or Dem ever stated such an opinion, and now you're trying to say that it was Dean who been saying this for months. Dean has NOT been saying "Don't come together over economic issues, that might get Democrats elected. It is much better to have Republican Governors and Senators and Presidents. Only then can progressive policies be pursued." No one has. You made it up.

Dean has been saying this for months.

I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

And no one complained about that statement. The complaints are about his recent statement that he's the candidate for "White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back" unaccompanied by the arguments you quote. This is just another attempt by a Dean supporter to confuse Dean's earlier statements with the one that stirred up the controversy.

The republicans have won (the argument) as long as the issue is discussed on their terms.

And it's your opinion that "confederate flag" is NOT the Repukes term?

[Q]

33. Hopefully you're being sarcastic...

...I can never tell because of the way you phrase your sentences.

[alwynsw]

38. You're perpetuating the problem

Whose lives were for sale? Certainly not those alive today, therefore the lives that were for sale belong to dead folk. Dead folk cannot speak (except through mediums if you believe that sort of thing - i do).

I find it hard to believe that there are so many mediums about.

Most folks eligible to vote today never experienced the Jim Crow laws, so that argument doesn't fly for most. (Let me categorically state that voter intimidation DOES take place today, although it is not just race based.)

Research a little Irish history to see the comparisons between the Irish then and now and blacks then and now. The parallels will astound you.

I'm of 100% Irish descent. I can whine about past and present wrongs, or I can move forward. I choose the latter. Living the past (as opposed to remmebering it and using its lessons for molding the future) is counterproductive at best.

[sangh0]

54. Now it's my fault?

I thought it was though uppity blacks who wont "get over it" I guess you should be telling them about how their complaints are "counter-productive" and they should stop "living in the past"

That's the way to solify the support of a group that votes overwhelmingly (more than 90%) Dem. We are so lucky to have someone who knows what black people should do and think, and isn't afraid to say so. There's a real shortage of that in this country!

[MadHound]

I think you need to do a little more historicaly research there

While the Irish faced the choice of immigrate or die, African Americans were forcibly seized from their homeland, bound and shipped to the US. While both groups suffered horrendously on the passage over(I have Irish ancestors who died in that passage), African Americans suffered by far greater mortality rates.

Once here, while the Irish were forced into a loose form of indentured servitude, African Americans were shackled into slavery. While the Irish were able to rise in society through luck, fortitude and back breaking work, African Americans were kept on the bottom rungs of society, forced to pass their lifes in back breaking slavery. While the children of Irish immigrants had even better chances to rise in our society, the children of African Americans were kept segrigated to the bottom tier of society, even after the civil war was over and the slaves were freed. While the Irish were able to assimilate into US society, African Americans were kept in perpetual segragation, a second class society, forever apart. The Irish oddessy in the US lasted about one hundred years, during which they went from being virtually indentured servants, castigated for their religion to being part of the mainstream, even honored and memorialized, rising to the top of the societal wealth and power ladder. African Americans' oddessy in the New World has lasted for four hundred plus years.
They suffered for most of this period of time under a brutal form of slavery unknown before in the history of mankind. Following that they were castigated as second class citizens, kept in virtual indentured servitude and poverty, with few rights, and even those were violated regularly and at will. It is only in the past fifty years that African Americans have even come close to enjoying the rights, privleges, and societal standing that the Irish have been able to take for granted since before the turn of the nineteenth century.

Yes, the Irish have suffered here in the US. But to compare it to the plight of African Americans is ludicrous on the face of it. The Irish experience is much more akin to any of the other poor, European groups. First generation suffers hardships and prejudice, but their children and grandchildren have a much easier time, assimilating into a society that accepts them.
African Americans experience has been one of apartheid, brutal poverty, slavery, and being the second class citizen in the land of the free. Fifty years of a society approaching normalcy vis-a-vis African Americans doesn't make up for the four hundred years of oppression. The bad old days of the Irish past lie with your grandparents and great grandparents. The bad old days for African Americans lie with their mothers and fathers, and in some areas of society they are still going on.

[Dhalgren]

84. Also, there are plenty of folks alive and voting today

who experienced Jim Crow personally. I can clearly remember "Whites" and "Coloreds" sign from my childhood and there are plenty of folks older than me (at least I hope so).

[betio]

88. Think of how many flag-bearing southerners there are...

They're not breaking any laws by displaying this flag. In many cases, they are not making a racist statement by displaying it- I know several people who display the confederate flag as a protest against an authoritarian federal government.

To them, it has nothing to do with race. For some, it still may, but I believe the "message" of the flag has mutated over the years.

The racist aspect coloring all other aspects of this issue is ultimately an individual's problem.

Now, to deny by our party that these people exist, vote, pay taxes and are citizens of this country is to gift them to the other side.

[newyawker99]

92. Hi betio!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Uzybone]

3. If Dean had guts

he would first tell them to repudiate the confed flag, rather than first pander for thier votes.

[Guaranteed]

23. Don't their kids deserve health care,

confederate flag or not?

There's no need to make this goddamned flag an issue. THAT is what the poster is referring to when he says YOU'RE PLAYING INTO THEIR HANDS.

[Uzybone]

29. Believe it or not

a significant part of the population (and hard core dem voters) see that flag the same way some people see the swastika. It may just be a goddamned flag to you but to millions its more than just that. It reflects a way of thinking that says "know your role boy". I cant understand why many white liberals dont seem to care much about the message the confed flag sends.

If Dean had guts he would first repudiate the flag. We all know everybody needs healthcare, why did he have to bring up that goddamned flag in the first place?

[Eloriel]

60. You may not have ever heard that

it's easier to get people to listen to you -- which is precisely what Dean wants (in order to point out to them that we all have more in common than we have differences) if you don't alienate and antagaonize them first.

Gephardt and the others are trying your method; let's see how far it gets them.

Eloriel

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. You know, I'm not a Dean supporter, but

I can't believe that so many people misunderstood what he said.

He wasn't talking about appealing to the racist vote per se, but getting people to realize that their economic issues should supersede their racist sentiments. In other words, he was telling them to vote with their minds instead of their guts.

This is just anecdotal evidence, but the Dean statement was topic number one during the tea break at choir practice last night, and everyone (at this very liberal church) was wondering what the fuss was about. The one African-American member of the choir was the one who brought the topic up, and he said that everyone he knew was wondering what the fuss was about. (Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but there you have it.)

Dean is probably fourth on my list of candidates, but I find that this deliberate misunderstanding of his statement on the part of his closest rivals to be a sign of desperation. If you're going to attack Dean, do it on the basis of something he actually said, not by choosing to misunderstand one of his statements.

[sangh0]

94. Everyone understands that

and none of the candidates have said Dean is appealing to the racist vote. Even Sharpton acknowledged that Dean is no racist. The only deliberate misunderstanding going on here is the effort to misportray the critics as people who think the remark was racist.

It was a stupid and polarizing remark, and it distracted attention from Dean's point.

[tsipple]

4. Because the Democratic Party Establishment...

...Doesn't have much use for democracy, apparently.

[virtualobserver]

50. democracy has gone out of fashion, I guess

Bush doesn't like it either.

[highlonesome]

69. It's meaningful debate that's gone out

Democracy hasn't gone out of fashion at all. It's the climate meaninful debate and education that have eroded.

I have a personal theory for why this is and it has mostly to do with the evolution of the ideologies of the conservative and liberal camps. During the 1970's and 80's each side began to form concrete, explicit philosophies or ideologies around which to build their political platforms. I hate to sound like an elitist, but I suspect that most voters and concerned citizens don't know what these are.

On the conservative side: the philosophies of the conservatives -- namely Republicans -- has been that of the monetarist economists, especially Friedman and Hayek. These two thinkers(and some of what they have to say is truly insightful) espoused a philosophy of economic liberterianism allowing economic systems to basically develop and evolve according to a system similar to natural selection. They argued that the less govt meddles in the economic affair of its constituents, the more free the constituents are to plan and create a robust economic system. That is, one that exists because it is viable and not propped up through taxation and subsidy. However, the split personality of the conservative is that while they may be economically liberterian, they are in fact socially determinist as influenced by the religious right. cont'd...

[highlonesome]

71. On to the liberals....

The development of the conservative ideals were in many ways a reaction to what was happening on the left during the 70's and 80's. Within many academic institutions during this time, prominent leberal thinkers were beginning to embrace what was known as intellectual Marxism. Now don't get me wrong here -- I'm not invoking communism as a dirty word, just pointing out in as detatched away as I can. Basically, this is a philosophy that imposes a Marxist model on all sorts power systems -- gender, race, etc. -- in the same way that Marxism breaks down economic systems. That is, it views them as class struggles, ie women are oppressed as a class, minorities are oppressed as a class.

But since you can't generate profit by equalizing all these classes, society has to be subsidized through taxation of the oppressing groups -- namely the wealthy and the middle class. This has lead to an outlook of social libertarianism and economic determinism -- the very antithesis of the conservative outlook of social determinism and economic libertarianism.

[highlonesome]

73. so what's the problem?

Well the problem is that in essence not only are liberals and conservatives at odds with each other, but the very philosophies they base their value systems on have internal conflict.

In a free society, relative levels of social and economic freedom are not exclusive of each other, but are instead inter-related. Equality and liberty as absolutes cannot exist together in the same system. In a monied society the flow of cash is a largely determining factor in a person's civil liberty. If you limit a person's choices as to what to do with his cash, you've in turn influenced civil liberty and therefore therefore the level and value of true social libertarianism. Conversely, if you somehow are limiting a person's social liberty, certain avenues of economic liberty no longer exist.

So the truth of the matter is that neither is correct and each changes with the times. The debate should always be about the nature of the relationship between liberty and equality.

[newyawker99]

93. Hi highlonesome!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[trof]

5. Another who agrees with you.

http://www.theangryliberal.com/11-06-03.htm

[mhr]

6. It Is Amazing That We Are Still Fighting The Civil War In This Country!

eom

[alwynsw]

20. I'm amazed

[highlonesome]

31. I'm not amazed

Frankly, I'm not amazed at all. If you look at the Civil War as a whole with all of the factors involved in going to war -- brother against brother -- without quite so much focus on the issue of slavery, it becomes apparent that the issues fought over in that conflict are nearly the same issues that exist today, but with a different set of specific circumstances. What I mean by this is that once a democratic nation has been conceived, the debate turns to one regarding the nature of democratic government: the power of centralized federal government balanced against the power of smaller local government, balanced against the power and liberty of the individual.

All of the debate in a free and democratic society, to me, is a debate on the nature of the relationship that exists between the balance of liberty and equality.

[alwynsw]

44. Well stated, I concur with your reasoning

For those just skimming, my reference was to those who continue to rehash the past without offering substantive solutions.

[msmcghee]

56. Welcome to DU highlonesome.

I'm happy to see you here. I notice that you are bringing some "deeper" thoughts to the table. I always find those more interesting than the emotional reactions that often prevail.

And I especially appreciate any poster who takes enough time to form complete grammatical sentences and does a little spell checking before hitting the submit button.

Does your screen-name highlonesome have any connection to bluegrass music? Just curious.

:toast:

[highlonesome]

66. Yes!

Thanks for the welcome -- you have a nice smile. Just to let you know -- no spell check needed I'm a good speller.

And yes it is a reference to bluegrass music for which I have a terminal illness. I can't get through the day without at least some small injection of the high lonesome sound along with intensive therapy during the summer festival season. My favorites are the Greyfox Bluegrass festival in Hillsdale NY and the Fox Family festival in Old Forge -- little plug for Ms Mary Doub and Kim Fox.

[msmcghee]

67. I have the same problem . .

. . out here in the Northwest - summers totally full of festivals. So it was easy to pick up on your screen-name.

I mostly do banjo and guitar - how about you? I've been working on a guitar lead for "Road to Columbus" for a few weeks.

[highlonesome]

74. Big Rice bros fan

I'm mostly guitar these days -- a Martin D-25 and a Santa Cruz Tony Rice model I picked up earlier this year. I play in a band out here, lead and rhythm guitar and high tenor parts.

[msmcghee]

80. I just bought Tony's classic "Does Bluegrass" CD

It's amazing how every tune on it is a keeper. I fell in love with "Carolina Star".

For all you non-bluegrassers here - please excuse this diversion.

OTOH - there is an on-topic lesson here.

Whatever kind of music people love - whatever color their skin is - whatever decals they put on their pickups - once you get to know them you'll probably find they are pretty much like you and me. Most of us are not hateful toward others (though we all slip at times) - and we are seldom hateful in a one-on-one situation.

Politicians who understand that and can bring people together based on their common traits and the inherent goodness that is inside almost everyone - will make better leaders for our country - our states - and our school districts.

End of sermon.
:donut:

[highlonesome]

83. I disagree!

Just kidding....

[meegbear]

7. keep losing?

We won the last 3 presidential elections.

[virtualobserver]

13. I'm talking about races for the house, senate, gov.....

and we should have won the Presidency by a landslide.

[Le Taz Hot]

22. Who is in the White House?

And who has the majority in the Senate and the Congress? Where was the DNC when the Congressional Black Caucus stood on the steps of the Senate building BEGGING just ONE Senator to challenge the Florida vote? Where were the DINO Democrats in the House and Senate when MILLIONS of Americans were contacting their reps, BEGGING them to vote "no" on unilateral war with Iraq? Or the Patriot Act? Or the Homeland Security Act? Or $87 billion UNACCOUNTED dollars for the Iraqi boondoggle?

In the last month we've lost the governorships of California, Kentucky and Mississippi. In 2002 the Republicans increased their lead in the Congress and gained the majority in the Senate.

Ring ring. CLUE PHONE! We ARE losing. We're losing our asses and as long as the DNC party boys refuse to even consider any other alternative other than their "third way" (abandoning the base and going for those all-important corporate bucks and the mushy middle), we'll continue to lose.

There are several Democratic candidates who challenge that "third way," as they should. It's a losing strategy. People like Gebhardt, Pelosi, Kerry, Edwards, Daschle and Feinstein are dinosaurs who are well on their way to extinction. People like Dean, Kucinich, and Mosely-Braun represent the future of the Democratic party and the future of this nation. Continue with the "third way" and continue to lose or realize that the Democrats had it right the first time and start winning some of these battles.

[SammyWinstonJack]

42. We are all fully aware of whom is in the WH

and why/how he is there, neither of which include winning the election.

[liberalmuse]

8. You're right

We, as a whole (the Dem party/liberals) are so concerned with honesty and fairness that we are overly critical and way too hard on ourselves. The 'pubs don't have this problem because honesty isn't an issue--they don't have a problem lying to themselves and others.

When I saw the pictures of those 7 men at Bush's bill signing yesterday, grinning in self-satisfaction, it made me sick. All men. That was probably the most disgusting spectacle I've seen in a long time. Of course one of them was Hatch, the bastard. Ef them all. We liberals have to start being real a-holes. I'm already there.

[Military Brat]

37. A little harsh, but I agree. I would also like to point out:

Conservatives have a high tolerance for intolerance (remember that psychological study that had them outraged?) Thus, racism is not a factor in how they vote, whether Repubicannibals and, to a lesser degree, white Southern Democrats. Hit them on education, education, education. The Dems always want a better life for their kids. The Repubs already know their kids will have a better life.

Edited for clarification.

[brainshrub]

9. Well said!

Howard Dean is going to be the anti-Reagan.

[HootieMcBoob]

11. on the money

you said it.

[mmonk]

12. The Conferate flag issue

isn't a burning one that will determine the vote for the presidency, even here in the south. Best to just let it die and talk about real issues facing America. Local fights over the flag in the few states where its an issue should be left there IMO. For example, let South Carolina find out for itself what it is losing concerning the issue. Its been a windfall for us in NC and they are bound to see it.

[virtualobserver]

16. it would not have been an issue, if not for the desperation.....

of other candidates. The flag wasn't the point of Dean's statement except to illustrate that Republicans were using it as a political tool.

[sangh0]

24. Which is why Dean's statement is so DUMB!

Using the Confederate flag as a symbol for southern male voters distracted people from the point that we need to get those votes for Dems and turned it into a dispute over racism and the Confederate flag. After having several of his statements "quoted out of context" I would have thought Dean would have wisened up to the fact that the media does that sometimes, and that he is now under extreme scrutiny.

[virtualobserver]

30. but it wasn't the media that took it out of context.....

It was his fellow Democrats.....Which is why I posted this.

Desperate Democrats playing the race card for short term gain and playing into Republican hands is a very depressing sight to see.

Dean can handle this....I'm just tired of nonsense like this from Democrats.

[sangh0]

36. Poor baby Dean

Did the idiot really think his opponents, the ones he compared to cockroaches, were going to ignore the opportunity his foolish words presented?

[virtualobserver]

43. the opportunity to divide, while playing into Republican hands...

What a glorious opportunity.

on edit: added r to opportunity in title.

[sangh0]

62. Can't you answer the simple question?

Or are you too busy repeating your defeatist slogan while accusing others of defeatism?

Is Dean so dumb he thought his words would always be accurately repeated in full?

[AP]

68. My real concern is not that it was dumb mistake...

...it's that Dean is trying to create the perception, intentionally, that white people are the victims of racism.

I think he isn't interested in the black vote, and he's going to try to make up for it by going after right of center voters who think that they are the victims of racism, whether it's in the sense that race is this big problem in society which they wish would go away, or in the sense that racism is bad because of what it does to poor white people, rather than what it does to black people.

[sangh0]

97. I dont think that's the case

I don't like Dean. That's pretty clear by now. But I dont think Dean is a racist and even I don't think Dean is so opportunistic that he would exploit the race issue like that. I think he wants the black vote, but he's not going to risk the white vote eithere.

[quinnox]

14. Dean apologized to Sharpton, give thanks

that Sharpton is a minister, and thus a forgiving type.

[virtualobserver]

17. Yes, I am so thankful that Sharpton played into the hands of Repub..

strategists. Many thanks to Rev. Sharpton.

I'll take Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr.'s take on this issue any day of the week.

[alwynsw]

18. That's funny

A forgiving Al Sharpton. Can you say oxymoron?

[Cocoa]

19. If Lieberman had said this...

it would be seen as PROOF that the DLC is FORCING the dems to abandon their base, and pander to the racist republicans.

It would be an absolute OUTRAGE to many people who are now sticking up for Dean.

[yolatengo]

41. maybe it's a big tent

Perhaps Dean feels that if we welcome economically disadvantaged
white southerners who have in the past been taken in by the GOP's
crypto-racist rhetoric it will be the first step towards changing
their attitudes and eventually they won't BE the type of voters
Gephardt 'doesn't want'.

The Democratic Party can have the old Wallace vote AND the black
vote if they strive to change the attitude of the former, and don't
just pander to them at the expense of the latter. Get their votes
NOW, and slowly change them later is better than "let's think up
some obscure and complicated equation for winning without
getting a single vote from Zell Miller's South".

How are things ever going to change if there is nothing but
suspicion on both sides? How will white Southern GOP voters
ever realize they are being fooled by wedge issues to blame
and hate blacks and others at the expense of their own
economic stability if the Dems constantly say "we don't
want any of you cracker *ss racists in our party EVER".

Saying "you change your evil ways first then maybe we'll
let you in" is not a successful strategery.

It worked better when Dean said it because some think he's
a small, rural state, non-ruling-class 'maverick' who seems
to not be anti-gun. Lieberman is perceived as a Washington
Insider Connecticut suburban Jew who hates guns and
Christianity.

Bigby

[Brush_Hill]

27. Blame Terry McAuliffe

We will not win the big elections until this boob is gone. I would not be suprised to find out one day that he is actually a Repug mole. Please put a firebrand in there. I am so sick and tired of having this apologist lead our party into obscurity. Ann Richards? Paul Begala? Bill Clinton? Someone needs to take charge and get the truth out there.

[sangh0]

39. "We will not win the big elections"?

You mean three Presidential election weren't enough?

And it's funny that two of the three names you mention fully support McAuliffe. Clinton appointed McAuliffe.

[Q]

47. Winning and actually taking office are two different things...

...and to this day the DLC won't admit that Gore actually won the 2000 election.

- That Gore wasn't able to take office and that the Democratic party leadership did little to challenge the bogus election results pretty much sums up the sad state of the party.

[Brush_Hill]

57. I Knew That Would Haunt Me

when I made the comment about the "big" elections. Gore won the popular vote and lost in the electoral college. There was indeed no backbone. The DLC should have fought for the election. My god, the friggin' Repugs had a stupid mini-series on Reagan pulled from CBS but we did not have the balls to see the election thru to the end?? Come on. I know that Clinton annointed McAuliffe. What worked a few years ago just does not work anymore. The game has changed. And unless we can effectively get the Democratic message out there, we will see more and more Repugs taking our country away from us. And those freaks say that we don't love our country. Well, maybe not the country that they are recreating.

[sangh0]

64. "The DLC should have fought the election"?

I think you're confusing the DLC with the DNC.

And though I agree that "the game has changed", but if that's your argument, then why muddy it with the false claim that the DLC can't win elections or the Reagan mini-series?

[Brush_Hill]

79. DNC/DLC

Sorry. I guess my point is that the "message" is just not getting delivered. The repukes seem to be able to get their "one message" out consistantly. I will take the silly Reagan special. The darned thing had yet to be seen, but the Drudge Report and other conservative outlets we trashing it and sainting Reagan at the same time. Where was the liberal outrage when the Bush propaganda machine had the Showtime special a few months ago regarding Bush and his actions (or lack thereof) on Sept 11? Nowhere, that's where. This site, Buzz Flash and a few others may have voiced concerns, but that was it. The DNC really needs a pit-bull to hammer our message home. And we need a consisant message. The beating up of Dean the other night was pathetic. The Confederate Battle flag? PLEASE. Substance is needed.
Gay marriage? The repukes are the ones bringing this issue up. Anything to distract from the business of ther nation.

[newyawker99]

96. Hi Brush_Hill!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Duder]

28. Yup, just like this cartoon...

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/wasserman/

[CWebster]

46. because they would rather destroy the party

to position themselves politically.

[virtualobserver]

48. we had to destroy the party in order to save it.....

I guess.

[CWebster]

51. Save it from what ? Dean?

Destroy it for who? Kerry?

[HazMat]

52. Dean didn't originally say

"they should stop basing their vote on the confederate flag".

He said " I want to be the candidate for the guys with the confed flag decals on their pickup trucks".

That implies that he thinks there's nothing wrong with their reactionary views on social issues as long as they go along with his economic plan.

You're right, the GOP wins because they win symbolic battles like partial birth abortion, the Confederate flag... the battle of perception.. after all perception is what politics is all about. The GOP are masters at propaganda and shaping perception -- and it works. Democrats tend to think of symbolic battles as silly because "there are bigger fish to fry". The problem with that is that perception is everything.

Which is why Dean is WRONG on this issue.

Democrats should be fighting the GOP hard on these symbolic issues.

Dean likes to fancy himself as the candidate who "takes the fight to the GOP", but seems to have no problem siding with them when it's politically expedient.

There's no point in bringing the "confederate vote" back to the Democratic Party unless they've come to see our side of the argument. They left the party during the Civil Rights era because they fervently disagreed with the party's liberal direction. These voters still feel the same way, and the only way to get them back would be to move to the right of the Republicans, which is where the old southern Democrats were.

[CWebster]

55. Then you are just perceived as a PC elitist.

Symbols give the powerless a sense of entitlement and inclusion.

The question to ask is what are they being left out of.

[HazMat]

70. they chose to leave

because they're reactionary views didn't fit with the party's progressive direction.

Fighting racist symbols/messages/slogans/imagery has nothing to do with PC elitism, unless Dean considers civil rights and dignity for minorities "PC elitism".

Screw the "oppressed Southern white man". Let him put down his racist symbols and then we can talk.

Until then, the Republicans can have them and they can continue to suffer. The truth is, I don't give a shit about "giving their kids healthcare". The racist fucks can all go to hell until they are willing to open their ignorant fucking minds.

[CWebster]

75. In other words they are written off

and you wonder why Democrats labor under the "elitist" image when they are unwilling to make inroads towards....winning hearts and minds.

[HazMat]

95. Yes - they are written off

Moderate Southern Democrats like Clinton and Gore were willing to meet them half way, yet the majority of white conservative southern males still voted Republican, and in fact hated Clinton.

Moderate to conservative Dem governors like Musgrove were beaten yesterday. These are center-right Dems who supported gun rights and all the other issues Gore supposedly lost on (which is BS NRA propaganda, Gore won on those issues in the states the NRA spent the most money contesting ). What about Cleland? He "reached out" to these bigoted confederate assholes and they had no problem with what the GOP did to him.

You don't get it -- the GOP isn't even far right enough for them. These people are looking to move much farther right than way they are now, much less even move an millimeter to the left on any issue. As I've stated, the old Southern Democrats were to the right of even the current GOP.

We would be better served trying to win back the MODERATES who defected to the Republicans in 1980 (the Reagan Democrats).. the people Clinton (and Gore to a lesser extent) made inroads with.

Isn't ironic that the DLC is severely criticized (as they should be sometimes) for reaching out to the center, yet Dean is reaching out to the far right and it's just dandy. You people will defend anything "the cult leader" does.

[mmonk]

58. Perceptions

can make you or break you. Dean better hope he gets it right.

[blm]

63. Why bait and switch? Dean was talking about the NRA, and NOT race

relations when he answered that Des Moines reporter. Why are you saying he was trying to start a discussion about race when his answer was about his longtime support for NRA positions?

[Hep]

72. Because

his remarks caused a racial stir.

You know how others responded to it. Why are you even asking?

You know, Dean's position on gun control is on his website. What specific part of it do you have a personal problem with?

[blm]

78. I have a problem that he is LYING about the reason for his remarks.

He was answering the reporter's question about the NRA. Dean has changed the story to say that he was trying to discuss race relations. Why is he lying about his reason for the remark he made last week?

[Hep]

85. Where, please

He was answering the reporter's question about the NRA. Dean has changed the story to say that he was trying to discuss race relations.

Please post a link to where he says that he was trying to discuss race relations when he made that one comment.

Make sure your source shows that he has made strikingly similar comments in the past when talking about race. In other words, make sure your source doesn't confuse the comment he made to the Des Moines register with the comments he has made dozens and dozens of times in the past.

Why is he lying about his reason for the remark he made last week?

Please show me the lie.

[msmcghee]

65. I don't get cable . .

. . but last nite on NPR I watched as Sharpton and Edwards viciously attacked Dean for his statement about trying to attract voters in the south who typically have confederate flag stickers on their trucks.

The reality is that poor white male southerners are one of the main reasons the pukes have a lock on the south. It's their southern strategy from 1968 - that just keeps on keeping on - working better for them each year.

There are almost no unions in the south. If you are a white laborer or have any low paying job - then it's easy enough to appeal to your racism and fear. That's what the pukes do - and that's why they vote for them - and that's why they have those flag decals on their pickups.

Dean was saying that he understood why they were doing it - i.e. that they were acting out against the fear that the pukes had been baiting them with for 30 years. He was saying that he knew that many (most) of them were really not bad people after all - and that if we open an honest dialogue with them rather than attack them for their decals - they might discover that we aren't such bad folks either - and that maybe they will realize that we represent their needs better than the pukes - who have just used them to turn Americans against each other in the south for the last 30 years.

To whatever level Dean is successful at this - those decals will not be quite so popular in the future. They will slowly come down as people realize that they are hateful and because they no longer enjoy so much sticking them in the faces of us liberals - who are actually on their side in many respects.

It's too bad people can take this honest, creative approach to leadership - that actually tries to unite people rather than feed their hatreds - that actually could result in one or two southern states going for a dem candidate in the next election - and turn it into so much demagoguery for political ends - sounds like another party I know of.

Their southern strategy was really far more brilliant than they realized at the time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. Recommended reading:

Studs Terkel's book Race.

One of the most striking stories in the book is about a former Klan member. He ran for and was elected to the local schoolboard to protest what he saw as "anti-white" policies. However, when he got to know the black schoolboard members, he discovered that as someone from a working class background, he had more in common with them than with the local wealthy whites.

[CBHagman]

86. Look up "cognitive distortions," virtual observer

You're starting from the premise that Democrats lose every time. What we have is a divided electorate and divided results. You can't get a pattern 100 percent defeat from what you're seeing in races today. Stop and think about it.

[livinontheedge]

91. Fair enough . . . better question, why do republicans control almost

everything? The WH, both houses of Congress, more governorships, more state houses, etc.? I believe it is because 30% of voters are staunch democrats, 30% are staunch republicans, and 40% are "right-leaning" independents. Those independents hold the key to democratic victory. We have to frame our issues in a way that appeals to these independent voters. Clinton is right. You have to run to the middle to get elected.

The right has effectively defined us as the party of affirmative action, abortion, high taxes, appeasement, anti-business, anti-school choice, and gun control. Of course, we have defined the right as the party of the rich, etc. etc, etc. Problem is, a lot of the independents don't envy the rich and would like to earn $100,000+ a year themselves. They don't get upset if tax rates are lowered as long as the effective tax rates on the rich are higher than the effective tax rates on the working poor.

So, how do we combat this sterotype? It's simple, we nominate Howard Dean who can reach these independent voters on an emotional level. If we do not persuade them emotionally, we can't overcome the steotype.

[realFedUp]

89. Depressing to me also that Dems voted for this

Voting against the Constitution isn't a good idea
and then to threaten to arrest doctors doing their
jobs to save the lives of women isn't either.