From the Net Nanny: Some thoughts about incivility on DU.

[Skinner]

Without a doubt, the most difficult job I have on DU is encouraging people to be civil to each other, and avoid personal attacks. There is a persistent myth that "disruption" on Democratic Underground is primarily caused by freepers and low-post-count newbies who are here to cause trouble. Not only is this myth untrue, but is also makes it difficult for us to address the real problem on DU, which is fellow members who deliberately ignore the rules and treat other members badly.

The truth is that we don't actually have very many freepers here. But we do have a lots of rude progressives. Are you one of them?

We have been logging all of the messages removed from DU by the moderators since early July. Many of these are insignificant, such as duplicate postings. But the vast majority of removed posts are violations of our personal attacks rule, our bigotry rule, our "respect the moderators" rule, or some other civility rule. These are serious violations which make this place unpleasant for all of us.

Consider the following statistics:

During the last 30 days, there were a total of 410,520 messages posted on the Democratic Underground message board. Of those, exactly 3,262 were removed by the moderators. In other words, less than one percent (0.8%) of posts are removed.

The 3,260 deleted messages were posted by 945 different people. Here's the breakdown for the last 30 days...

30+ posts removed: 6 people
20-29 posts removed: 11 people
10-19 posts removed: 58 people
01-09 posts removed: 870 people

THE WORST OFFENDERS

We then picked an arbitrary cut-off point of 15 removed posts in 30 days and took a look at our list. Who are the worst offenders? We aren't going to list names, at least not now. (However, I will note that the names on the "worst offenders" list remained relatively consistent over 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days.)

There are 41 people who had 15 or more posts removed in the last 30 days. Out of those 41 people, 11 had been banned as disruptors, leaving 30 "worst offenders" who are still members of DU. Here's where it gets interesting. Out of those 30 people...

26 people out of the 30 worst offenders have 1000+ posts. Four people have less than 1000 posts. The average number of posts for the 30 worst offenders is 4826, and the median is around 2700.

24 people out of the 30 worst offenders were members since before July 6, 2003. Four more of them registered in July, and the other two in August and September.

If we banned all 41 worst offenders, instead of just 11 of them, we could decrease the number of deleted posts by 871 -- A 27% decrease in deleted posts!

So, what's the moral of this story?

It seems pretty clear to us that our incivility problem could be improved significantly and immediately if we just got rid of the long-term members who refuse to follow the rules. But we don't think that would be fair.

Over the next day or two, I am going to send private messages to the 30 worst offenders, to notify them that they are causing a disproportionate number of problems on the message board. Hopefully, this knowledge will provide an incentive for these people to do better in the future.

Also, Elad is currently programming an automated warning system to inform members when their posts are deleted, to make it easier for the administrators to keep track of members' histories of deleted posts, and to better identify who the persistent problem people are.

We are not sure when the new system will be finished. But our hope is to have it finished in the next two to four weeks. You can use that time to practice being more respectful to one another.

Finally, I want to say one last thing: It is really not very difficult to follow the rules. If you are trying to treat other people with respect, then you won't EVER break the rules, and you will have no problems here. But if you are the type of person who is looking for ways to be rude to other people, then you will have problems.

It's very simple. The vast majority of DU members don't have any problems at all.

Skinner
DU Admin

[WilliamPitt]

1. ...waiting for my private mail...

*tapping foot*

Thanks, Skinner.

[Khephra]

3. Between us two

The average must have really been shot to hell!

;-)

[WilliamPitt]

5. Shut up, you DINO scumbag

Oops!

:evilgrin:

[VelmaD]

9. Hee

They need a special moderator whose job is just to keep you two in line. ;-)

[Khephra]

10. You should see us at work!

:evilgrin:

[VelmaD]

12. Is there duck tape...

and silly string involved? And if so, can I get pictures? ;-)

[Khephra]

30. Only when one of us is really naughty

or nice.

:evilgrin:

No pictures though. We'll have to get some when Will comes to Indy for you all.

[VelmaD]

32. Woohoo

This could be even more fun than pics of matcom getting frisked by the "cop". I'll even chip in for the silly string. :-)

[LynneSin]

125. You know, it was that night of loving in Philadelphia

You 2 should have never shared a room together.

[Brewman_Jax]

23. You two work together?

Is that why they have to separate you two to opposite ends of the building? :silly:

[Khephra]

26. We're so bad...

They have to keep Will and I in totally separate states!

[bpilgrim]

98. incredible team

:wow:

:toast:

peace

[goobergunch]

55. truthout.org, IIRC (n/t)

[KoKo]

101. I did once, but I'm still here!

:-)'s and forgave you all....and grew to really love one of you!
(stick your tongue out emoticom) which I can't find and don't know from memory! :D

[Khephra]

11. You you you....

Kerry supporter! Ewwwwwwwww!

:evilgrin:

[karlschneider]

89. For example of a statistical anomaly, consider mine...I'm offensive 99%

of the time!
:D

[Khephra]

2. I wonder how skewed I made that post average?

:evilgrin:

My apologies for my part. Consider me warned.

[Khephra]

I'll also add (for just today's postings)

That I've been sick from bad Mexican food and waiting on my cat, Ares, to get back from the vet. I just found out that my cat just has a cold and isn't dying or anything, so that's put my in a better mood.

The Mexican food is still screwing with my mind like in that one Simpson's episode with Johnny Cash as a Coyote spirt guid.

[VelmaD]

22. Take that...

space coyote. :-)

[Khephra]

13. I'll also add (for just today's postings)

That I've been sick from bad Mexican food and waiting on my cat, Ares, to get back from the vet. I just found out that my cat just has a cold and isn't dying or anything, so that's put my in a better mood.

The Mexican food is still screwing with my mind like in that one Simpson's episode with Johnny Cash as a Coyote spirt guid.

[Khephra]

14. I'll also add (for just today's postings)

That I've been sick from bad Mexican food and waiting on my cat, Ares, to get back from the vet. I just found out that my cat just has a cold and isn't dying or anything, so that's put my in a better mood.

The Mexican food is still screwing with my mind like in that one Simpson's episode with Johnny Cash as a Coyote spirt guid.

[Renew Deal]

19. Is this a joke?

Triple post. Way to bring up your numbers.

[Khephra]

21. See!

That bad Mexican food just keeps on coming back and hitting you time and time again!

(Those dupes were NOT on purpose, but they fit the joke. ;-) )

[slackmaster]

63. Next time try coating your stomach with hot candle wax

I didn't work for Homer but you never know.

[Lefty48197]

179. That's because he ate Guatemalean Insanity Peppers

everybody knows candle wax doesn't help.

[Kamika]

4. statistics

We all love it

[ProfessorGAC]

47. I Know I Love Statistics

Ask anyone who knows me. When i start talking numbers, the groans can be heard in Missouri. (And i only live 50 miles from Chicago!)
The Professor

BTW: I was going to ask Skinner who did the analysis and whether the numbers he quoted showed statistical significance. See! I can't help myself.

[LoneStarLiberal]

64. Maybe some factor analysis or time series?

This data sounds ripe for some factor analysis...

...or a nice little time series model with interventions where we see different flame-worthy topics pop up, like new intercandidate attacks or national news items on abortion or gun control.

[ProfessorGAC]

66. My Kind of DU'er!!!!!!!!!

OK! Now, we're talking!

Someone else who just thinks up stuff like this for no useful reason. Just like me!

Truly sympatico!
The Professor

[VelmaD]

6. How fun...

I've never had a post deleted that I know of. But I might have to try just to get a notification that I had one removed. Just to have one for posterity. ;-)

Just teasing. Thanks a ton Skinner for reminding us all that it ain't the Freepers that tear us apart - we do it all by ourselves.

[papau]

7. Dupe posts are removed and in the above count?

just curious

[Skinner]

24. Yes, dupes are included in the totals above.

But when we unveil our new system to track deleted posts, duplicates will not be included in your totals.

[THUNDER HANDS]

8. civility is certainly a cool objective

I hope you guys get this squared away as soon as possible. 99% - or rather, 99.2% of DUers are great people who support eachother.

:)

Keep up the good work.

[Renew Deal]

15. This doesn't include locked posts right? Is this just GD?

I have a couple dupes removed. But I have a few locked threads.

[Skinner]

This does not include locked threads. (nt)

[Nazgul35]

16. Raising my hand here....

I know of one incident in particular in the last two weeks where I had a few posts removed....

I'd be interested to know, of those 30 worst offenders, what is the number of ancillary posts that are removed....in other words, how much do their posts cause other members to submit posts in reaction which are also than removed?

I know most of mine are usually in reaction to something idiotic that someone else said....

:evilgrin:

[Skinner]

27. We generally do not remove replies to deleted posts.

On the old message board, we would delete replies to deleted posts. But we no longer do this on the new message board.

[pmbryant]

17. Very enlightening numbers

Thanks for sharing them with all of us.

--Peter

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. I know I have had some posts removed from the recent threads about women's

issues and "male rights."

This due largely to the frustration of dealing with members who deliberately like to link the issue of child support to abortion and a woman's right to choose as though one actually has anything to do with the other.

While I DO DO my best to get away from my computer before my anger does the typing, it does happen.

I am sorry for the work I make for the mods, but am not sorry for disrespecting people who disrespect me.


I certainly will do my best on threads that are mainly started for flamebait purposes mostly by people who really don't support this site, but I can't promise.

While I respect the rules and do my best to abide by them, it's an integrity issue for me to wax diplomatic with people who really show NO respect for me by deliberately obfuscating the terms of the debate mostly using right wing sources such as Christina Hoff Sommers to bolster their opinion. In fact, if the GD rules were followed regarding people having to EXPLAIN their reasons for posting a RW source such as Men's Right's Sites that USE Christina Hoff Sommers books to bolster their position, I doubt there would be an issue.

I guess if I get banned, then I get banned.

[Skinner]

29. Our rules do not include exceptions for people who "deserve it"

We have been very clear on that issue for a long time.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. You've also been very clear that we have a rule regarding sexism

It hasn't seemed to stop it or even alter the conversation much.

[Skinner]

40. I explained my position to you in a long private message.

I am sorry that it was not good enough.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. This isn't about that message.

I responded to you in that set of exchanges and meant what I said.

When threads such as the one last Friday are started, and allowed to continue being framed as they are ( purely as flame bait), people are going to break rules.

It's one thing to have posts removed on run of the mill threads in every forum for being a repeat offender.

It's quite another to end up with a post removed from a thread that was flame bait in the first place (as was ultimately acknowledged by admin when they locked it.)

[Selwynn]

59. Truest and most important statement in this whole thread:

"When threads such as the one last Friday are started, and allowed to continue being framed as they are ( purely as flame bait), people are going to break rules."

That's the long and short of it right there...

[Selwynn]

58. I absolutely agree

And I'm also not sure how "cool" it is to drop the ax on the "30" worst offenders" when they are so frequently baited by stuff that goes unchecked and ignored around here, like rampant sexism and prejudice.

[Forkboy]

62. That will be my defense

I get a lot of posts pulled in I/P,but I dont know how to respond to people who claim Arabs have their own smell or that Daniel Pipes is a respected scholar and intellectual :shrug:

[indigo32]

68. Wow

glad I don't hang around in IP...

[liberalhistorian]

123. That's why I don't hang around in I/P

anymore, with all of the flame bait and hyperemotion it just isn't worth my time and bother. Also, every thread there seems to have many deleted posts and a lot of those deleted posts didn't deserve to be deleted in the first place, they were just deleted because someone got supersensitive and couldn't handle certain facts. Hell, I've had some of my own posts on there deleted when I thought I was being very respectful and complying with the rules.

[RapidCreek]

166. Hahahahahahha

You made me weewee in my sweatpants!

hahaehehahehaha...

RC

[northzax]

133. the problem is not that longtime members are baited

neccesarily, the problem lies in a cult of celebrity that surrounds certain long time posters, and the sense of entitlement that fosters. See, for instance, the posts on this thread where people are celebrated for making jokes about the number of posts they have had deleted. Think of the sheer amount of volunteer work that went into processing 420,000 posts and selecting the several thousand that were deleted, and many of the most guilty parties think it's amusing, and people laugh with them. As long as that culture continues, the problem will exist. there is a double standard (and yes, I personally have taken advantage of that double standard when I have posted things that would have gotten a newer poster banned) and I welcome the cult of personality in the lounge, but when it spills into making GD or other fora a private playground, it is damaging and disrespectful.

[rasputin1952]

45. NSMA...YOU"VE had posts deleted...

I am SHOCKED; SHOCKED It tell you!

LOL, I had 2 deleted, but it was because it could be interpreted that I might do harm to bush. I realize that the SS and the other agencies that look into the net have no sense of humor, far be it from me to push the notion of harming people.

I do find it inappropriate however, for personal attacks to continue.
I have never met a DUer face to face, (that I know of), and I find it hard to condmen others without a little more than what it posted in anonimity.

Only time I've seen you torch a few, was when you were fired upon.
You are one of our shining stars, (alas, I am but merely a burned ouot husk). So hang in there and give 'em hell. Use your brains not your brawn.

:loveya:

[a_random_joel]

20. Good stuff, Skinner!

Thanks for helping us keep our eyes on the prize!

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wonk]

25. I think I could name at least 10 of those 24 off the top of my head

but I won't. I'm interested in seeing the complete list if Admin feels like posting it O8)

[gratuitous]

28. Most of the kidding aside

This seems like an eminently reasonable way of dealing with the problem. No sense banning folks outright and causing a lot of hard feelings, but the folks who are guilty (notes for the record that when one points a finger, three more are pointing back at that pointer) should have a chance to correct their "bad" behavior.

<Heads off to check private mail box, half expectantly, half dreadingly.>

[ShaneGR]

31. Taking bets.... I'm not on it.... 3-1 payoff if I am

Hehe.

[Forkboy]

33. I have to be in the 10-19 range at least

I admit I'm a sarcastic ass....not just online but everywhere,and sarcasm goes over like a fire at an orphanage.

I try to be nice sometimes,I really do,but my tolerance for idjits is just too damn low.

If I get one of those private PM's I'll try to behave.I'd hate to get banned but I can also think of worse things then getting banned for saying what I think :shrug:

[Renew Deal]

38. Saying what you think?

If you can't say what you think without at least not braking this rule, you don't belong here. Look at this rule: But the vast majority of removed posts are violations of our personal attacks rule, our bigotry rule, our "respect the moderators" rule, or some other civility rule. These are serious violations which make this place unpleasant for all of us.



You have to say some bad stuff to break it.

[Forkboy]

43. Thanks dad

see,sarcasm drips from my pores :shrug:

[bearfartinthewoods]

73. i'm sweatin' the 9-10 cut off

i have no clue how many posts i've had pulled. i hope not more than a couple but there are the is so and so gay threads and the bitch threads so i'm betting it's worse than i think.

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. i take that back

just reread and he's talking about monthly totals! no way i blowit ten times a month.

[Terran]

34. Hey, the new software pays off.

This could turn out to be a very useful tool for making the board better in unexpected ways. Excellent use of your resources, guys.

Dirk

[TrogL]

36. Isn't Net Nanny a registered trademark?

That confused me. I thought we'd been banned by Net Nanny. Frankly, considering some of the stuff going on in the lounge lately (yes, I did my share) I wouldn't blame them.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. will the auto respond messge contain the text or some indicator

of which post was pulled? thanks for the answer and the effort.

[Skinner]

41. Yes, the automated message will include the text of the deleted post. (nt)

[bearfartinthewoods]

53. personally, i thank you for that but i don't envy you your role in AA

when it rolls out. sheesh...it's been bad for weeks down there. you really are going to need the AA auto responder that someone called for earlier.

[info being]

39. Your opinion

Who says what is civil or not? How are you to reduce your opinions down to statistics?

[Skinner]

42. Short answer:

I say what is civil and what is not. ;-)

[GumboYaYa]

46. Oh my god,

you're my Mom. :)

<EDITED TO ADD SMILEY FACE>

[juajen]

165. LOL, good answer Skinner

May I take this opportunity to thank you for this board and all the great people who moderate and post upon it? Civil discourse is difficult at times. When I find a thread too distressing, I pull out. Has worked so far; don't know about the future. You do a terrific job. Since I don't wear a hat, my shoe is off to you and all the other elves who make this a terrific place to park.

[bearfartinthewoods]

44. at the bottom of almost every page on this forum is a link to the rules

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

there is a section there intitled civility.

[blondeatlast]

61. It's Skinner's board.

[Love Bug]

48. Question: What if the worst offenders don't change their behavior?

Will there be consequences or will they continue to be allowed to disrup because they're old timers?

[Skinner]

50. I am not handing out threats yet.

But we do expect people to improve their behavior. We have banned plenty of long-termers in the past.

[emad]

115. Not even a moderator-imposed 'incivility avatar'??

[ProfessorGAC]

49. As One Who. . .

. . .has never had a post deleted, let me say that i know it's hard sometimes not to get mad and take shots. I've taken some, to be sure, but i try to make them as innocuous as posssible.

So, i'm posting this to express sympathy to Skinner, Earl, and Elad for what has to be a difficult job. Enforcing civility! Not the easiest thing to do in a forum full of this many passionate people.

(Full Disclosure: I had one post edited by Skinner to take out the name of another poster. But, i was defending that poster and quoting some of the unfair accusations toward them. So, Skinner was just doing a fair job and i understood.)
The Professor

[rasputin1952]

51. Good idea Skinner...

I have no problem with civility, I encourage it.

I save my deepest jabs for the GOP anyway. I have always found it rough to fight with people in the same boat as I. Serves no purpose.

In any case, no matter where we go ion this world, there are always disruptors; I find it interesting that 0.8% is the rate of disruption, that is really low. Must be like 15% at FR! Those people are fools, at least we have brains.

:kick:

[KittyWampus]

54. I'll Try And Be More Diplomatic

Thanks

[Upfront]

I Say

Great!!!!!!!!!

[youngred]

56. Having just ever had my first post ever removed

I am very interested in these statistics.

You guys do an excellent job, and yes it is a VERY VERY small number of DUers who behvae poorly and continue to do so. Thanks so much for all the work you put in to making this the best board out there

[ulysses]

57. nanny?

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame12.html

Nah. More like...



http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame79.html

:evilgrin:

edit: :dunce: This was supposed to be in response to Skinner, not you, Zack.

[youngred]

60. LOL

that does look rather like me *primps hair*

:hi: uly!

[ulysses]

97. :)

Really is good to have you back here. :D

[Catherine Vincent]

65. I don't think I've had a post deleted.

How can I find out? There should be a section and have a list of all deleted posts.

[dsc]

67. I haven't kept track

but my guess is that I am probably in one of your higher groups. I am truely sorry for that. I know that there are times I honestly deserve to have posts removed. But I don't think it is all my fault that in my time at DU I went from rarely if ever having posts removed to having (my best guess) around 20 posts removed in the last month. Several posters have literally begged you to reign in the nasty threads. What you have done with GD is a great idea and frankly is desperately needed in PC. I am not happy with the deteriation in my attitude and for that reason alone have seriously considered leaving. But, I won't let what happened to Gore happen to Dean it is that simple. And if Dean losses then I won't let happen to our nominee what happened to Gore. I will work on being less tempermental. I really will. Again, I am sorry I really am.

[ursacorwin]

69. this may be unworkable

but why not try this:

send emails to anyone who meets your (admittedly arbitrary) "too many posts deleted mark" with a nice warning.

then, when that person breaks the rule again, apply a "limitation" to their ability to post. one post pulled- warning. two posts pulled- now you can only post a total of three remarks on any thread for a week. three pulled- you're down to one comment per thread.


that would allow them to have their little fits, and still express themselves, but not ruin a thread with silly personal nonsense.


i understand that sometimes emotion overwhelms us, and that sometimes what comes from that emotion is powerful, and even useful.

but there's a reason why this site isn't in my top five yet- the childish incivility and name calling is just embarrassing to me, and i cannot recommend a site to adults who are used to civil discourse a place dominated by schoolyard electronic pranks and name calling.

good luck with the newer rules/format.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

70. skinner please please don't ever tombstone me or i shall die...

i dwell in a red zone and am the only liberal for 300 square miles...and a tombstone would most definitely send me over the edge
no more churlish posts from this DUer...i pinky swear

[Noordam]

77. But you might look good in a tombstone

:evilgrin:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

118. hey you .....Noordam......bite your tongue!

:silly:
:P

[Skittles]

71. AM I ONE OF THEM

I'LL.................try to be better. :O

[Kanary]

72. Thank you!

I'm glad to hear there is going to be more enforcement. There are so many places on the 'net for people to vent their spleen and practice their flaming "skills", and I'm sure that has been brought up before. I *do* get tired of hearing so much sexism, and I'm also tired of the constant comments to the effect that someone who objects to uncivility is overly sensitive. Sensitivity is a great character trait, and needs to be respected the same as anything else.

Thanks again to the mods... I'm sure it's a terrifically fun job. NOT. ^_^

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

104. I second that. Thank you, Skinner.

I was starting to not like coming on the board anymore. It feels like every time I post something I'm just setting myself up for snide remarks. In particular if I even mentioned a Dem presidential candidate.

[West Coast Democrat]

74. I think I may just have a sixth sense about who is a Freeper

....even if it doesn't appear absolutely obvious to others when a particular poster is a Freeper. I can only speak for myself in saying this is what causes me to violate the rules. And I'm always pleased to learn when I've seen the suspects eventually tombstoned.

[Paragon]

75. Deleted message, name removed

Just thought it would be funny to get myself deleted on this thread, too. :D

Hey, I want the mods to enforce the rules -- specifically, "Do not spam the message board."

I generally don't use "ignores" or "alerts", and none of us should have to. There is a general intelligence prerequisite that comes with posting on a message board (much less being a Democrat), and there are some here who just don't meet it.

Thank you for reading this. You may now report this post to the mods.

[mitchum]

76. Guilty...

and this morning I resolved to do better. It really is stupid to be nasty to fellow Dems/Progressives (even though it may feel good at the time)
My sincerest apologies to ALL OF THOSE I HAVE FLAMED (and to the Administrators)
mitchum

[JanMichael]

78. Ah the joys of trying to be "the Adult"! I'm glad it's not me.

While I recall having a couple deleted recently I think I'm generally pretty civil to the sniveling f*ckwit trolls that keep popping up, and spouting off, here:-)

I'm guessing that I'm in the fourth tier with under 10. Although there's a tiny chance I might be in the 10-19 range.

My sincerest regrets for my more aggregious offences.

[NashVegas]

79. Great Job - I'm Glad You Did This

Once you see the patterns, it's quite something, isn't it?

[Kanary]

80. One question..

..and dilemma occurs to me... I've seen posts on the GenDis board which were personal disclosures, and people needing support. I've sometimes seen those moved to "Lounge" (although not all... see the one about being deployed). Having seen topic headings of "Lounge" in the "LObby", I know that certainly isn't something I would want to take part in.

Needing support is important, and something that is necessary if there is ever going to be a building of the Democratic Party. Is there some way to have a section where those posts can be safe from criticism and invective?

Thanks

Kanary

[Iverson]

81. Crouching Tiger, Deleted Message

I know that I have more than zero, and I do not always reach the ideal that I advocate, but I am happy to see a reminder about civility. We should all take these reminders in the most constructive spirit.

:donut:

edited typo & got fresh doughnut

[dreissig]

82. The F Word

The F word does not belong in any DU post at any time.

[slackmaster]

83. Usage is everything

The F word can be used for humor, or to express intense feelings in any direction about anything, or to describe sexual behavior, or it can be used to attack a person.

For example, I think responding to someone's post by saying "WHO THE FUCK CARES?" is inherently disrespectful and inappropriate. That has happened to me several times. When someone does that to me I don't feel obliged to read any more of what he or she wrote.

[1gobluedem]

143. F word never needed...

In my opinion, the great majority of DU'ers are thoughtful, intelligent, and educated people who should have extensive vocabularies. To me, people who incessantly use the f-word, no matter what the situation, have very limited vocabularies. It reminds me of sixth-grade boys' bathroom humor and, imo, is not very imaginative or funny.

I work on a college campus and can't walk to any other building without overhearing several conversations (cell phone and live) that consist almost exclusively of the words 'like' and the f-word. Is that how we want the next generation to represent us?

I think it's possible to express rage, passion, and every other emotion clearly and effectively without resorting to obscenities or vulgarities. Too much like Limbaugh and O'Reilly -- they have no effective counter arguments to people who question them so they resort to screaming, name-calling, and swearing. Immature.

So, thank you, Skinner, for bringing this up. I appreciate it.

[thebigidea]

85. you're right! I'd also like a ban on "damn," "shit," and "Coulter"

[alwynsw]

86. F'N A, BUBBA!

I admit it. One thread locked. But I was SOOOOOOO proud of finally getting a hearty "F U!" that I had to share.

Honestly, vulgarity is far overused here and elsewhere. What happened to respect for the sensibilities of others?

[Cronus Protagonist]

84. For the record - I'm not one of these people

Although I know there's dozens of people who would swear I must be :)

Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[DoNotRefill]

87. One point:

Sometimes, people get their posts pulled when responding to attacks made by third parties. Their posts don't necessarily violate the rules, but the mods will delete an entire sub-thread. Hopefully, those don't count against us.

[Skinner]

119. Actually, we rarely remove entire sub-threads.

We used to do it all the time on the old message board, but we rarely do it on this message board because it's not necessary.

[Vogon_Glory]

88. I Apologize If I Offend...

I apologize if I've personally offended anyone. I've seen a number of my posts disappear. I'd thought that I was acting civilly. If I disagreed with certain factions within the Democratic Party or allied with the Democratic Party, I tried to keep my disagreements confined to the ideological or to specific issues.

What I hope doesn't happen around here is that ideological uniformity doesn't become as ruthlessly enforced as it is in FReeperstan, that disagreeing voices aren't silenced, and that these boards don't become an echoing chamber for the would-be commisars and authoritarian-minded ideologues to attempt to do to the Democratic Party what their more "conservative" counterparts have done to debate within the Republican Party.

[markses]

90. Can we have a rule against ACCUSING other posters of Personal Attacks

Such a rule seems to follow from the current rules and from this new push to increase civility:

1) We have a rule against accusing other posters of being freepers. If personal attacks are a bigger problem than freeperism, and thereby constitutue a more insidious problem for civility and the smooth running of DU, we should understand a charge "You have attacked me personally!" as itself a personal attack, or at least tantamount to accusation of disruptions that are explicitly banned. Given the heft of the charge, it can easily turn into a a rather nasty form of argumentation that reduces the overall civility of the site. In essence, and especially after this post, Skinner, openly accusing another poster of a personal attack IS ITSELF A PERSONAL ATTACK in the context of this board.

2) The moderators decide. One of the greatest things about DU is the commitment of the moderators. They are prudent and, in my opinion, almost always as fair as possible. When one poster openly accuses another of engaging in a personal attack, that poster effectively diminishes the authority of the moderator. This is especially true in ambiguous cases where the post often appears before the moderator has decided. to the extent that the post remains after a moderator has decided that no personal attack took place, the accuser is allowed to frame a post as in violation without merit.

3) Finally, once the moderator has made a decision, the new software will alert violators to the specific problem post, and the reasons for its deletion. In this sense, it is unnecessary for non-moderators to alert the violators of their accusations (i.e., "You've attacked me personally so I'm alerting the moderators."). The full problem will be detailed by the moderator - who is the impartial judge - rather than the accuser, who is often involved in the flame war that spurred the alleged personal attack.

This rule makes sense, and is in line with the other rules, the overall spirit of civility and impartial monitoring by moderators. The rule could be a simple insertion, as follows:

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper; do not publicly accuse another member of engaging in personal attacks. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of these rules. If you think someone is a disruptor, or if you think someone is attacking you personally, click the "Alert" link below their post so the moderators can deal with it. Unfortunately, it has become all too common for members of this message board to label anyone with a slightly different point of view as a disruptor. We disapprove of this behavior because its intent is to stifle discussion, enforce a particular "party line," and pre-emptively label a particular point of view as inappropriate or unwelcome. This makes thoughtful and open debate virtually impossible.

[Guaranteed]

105. That's certainly an idea.

It would cut down on the number of fights.
I think in general you're right- things should be left up to the moderators.

However, it does seem that people should be able to defend themselves from personal attacks by pointing out that it's a personal attack.

But, you're right that calling people Republicans or freepers or any other name that implies "treason against the Democratic party" shouldn't be allowed.

[markses]

110. Those things are already not allowed

This is really a question of degree:

If calling someone a freeper is barred and - as this thread indicates - personal attacks are more damaging than disruptors to civility, then it stands to reason that accusing somebody of the worse offense (personal attacks) should be worse than accusing somebody of the lesser offense (disruption). How can tha rules prohibit the lesser offense while allowing the more severe offense?

It is precisely the point that the method of defending oneself is NOT TO "point out" that any one post is a personal attack, no more than one would defend the board by "pointing out" that a poster "is" a disruptor. It is not any one poster's decision to make to point that out. The method of defending oneself from a personal attack is to alert the moderator, kjust as the method of defending the board is to alert the moderator. It is not to point out or accuse in a post. That is the wrong method. It is the moderators decision whether any one post constitutes disruption, just as it SHOULD BE the moderators decisions whether any one post constitutes a personal attack.

The logic of the rules, and the data of this study, make it clear that posts accusing other posters of "personal attacks" are just as bad, if not worse, than posts accusing other posters of being freepers - and should be stopped on that basis.

[Cassandra]

91. Question for you, Skinner

I had a post removed, I think on a LBN thread on an I/P subject, that was removed with a series of other peoples' posts because the mods felt that we had moved too far off the subject of the original post. Personally, I would have preferred if the entire thread had been moved to I/P but that didn't happen. Would something like this count as an uncivil post, as I thought I was being pretty civil (no swearing, no insults, that I recall)?

[Skinner]

120. No, it would not count.

As long as your post did not break the rules, it would not count against you.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

92. Thank you for clarifying things

I know I have had posts deleted recently-I'll try to be better!

[David Zephyr]

93. 410,520

:thumbsup:

[MrPrax]

94. What a bunch of saints...

I am voting skinner-kooch ticket...
Hell I would have ban them already...

Patience is sainthood...
The disturbing part...

"26 people out of the 30 worst offenders have 1000+ posts. Four people have less than 1000 posts. The average number of posts for the 30 worst offenders is 4826, and the median is around 2700."

Wonder why the change? Have these folks been spoofed...hardtimes...baited...targeted for complaints...
seems strange...
carry on...

[neuvocat]

95. One thing I'd like to bring up:

We need to do away with posts from people other than mods or admin that start off with over-generalized calls on all members here to act a certain way, post in a certain manner, and so on. They are inflammatory and call for people to conform to a certain standard imposed by the poster.

Similar type of posts have in the past also have done nothing more than bash certain people for no apparent reason other than to scapegoat them. They may not be against individuals, but when you see dialog like "...you know who you are..." or "...yes I am speaking to YOU!" in the context, you know that those posts are bound to offend people in greater numbers and are certain to cause the lack of civility you are concerned with.

After all they do a lot to isolate and marginalize people in large numbers and many of them have in fact left DU and never came back.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. The short rules clearly say: Discuss the message, not the messenger.

Once a supposedly political discussion becomes about a DU member, I think we've strayed.

[neuvocat]

111. What about groups of DU'ers?

I think the same rules need to apply.

[Skinner]

121. We have cracked down on that in the GD forum.

If you start a thread trying to discuss a group of people, it will get locked.

[neuvocat]

151. Thanks.

Because when posts overgeneralize, criticize, condemn, and insult people by indirectly calling them lazy, that's bound to piss off scores of people who will in fact fight back with good reason.

Posts such as that do nothing more than serve a personal agenda and are no different than the "You liberals are...and you need to (start/stop) what you're doing because...".

Its really unoriginal and follows the same formula.

[CWebster]

96. I always think it is my fault.

I learned that guilt in Catholic school and by the age of 6 had a soul blackened with the stain of sin....according to sister Theresa.

[bpilgrim]

99. i hope we don't become like the u.s. senate

i like the commons better ;->

peace

[DrWeird]

100. It's not that I think my opinion matters...

but I liked things better before the personal attack rules. All though there were a lot of innane insult posts, it really didn't seem an less civil. It was sort of a source for venting. I agree that if it gets out of hand it's in everybody's interest for a mod to come in, tell everybody to shut the fuck up, and bust some heads. I think it's a whole other thing when a couple of people throw a few mild insults each others way, and some upjumped hall monitor comes along (not the mods, always respect them, but people who just read a bunch of threads looking for personal attacks with their fingers on the alert button) and spoils everybody's thread. I say if somebody's personally attacked and they get their feelings hurt let them hit the alert button.

But I shouldn't be the one to talk. The whole personal attack rules started shortly after I started posting. I guess I spoiled it for everybody.

Btw, has anybody ever gotten in trouble with the excessive use of the alert button rule?

[Skinner]

122. The board was much smaller then.

We instituted the personal attack rules about a year and a half to two years ago. The board was probably 1/4 the size it is now. As the board grew larger, so have the problems.

I also think that your experience shows a normal pattern for new users. When they first get here -- no matter when it is -- they see all the good stuff and think "WOW! This place is great." After three months of hard-core posting, they start to focus on the bad stuff, and think "Man, this place has gone to hell in the last three months." I think the truth is that there never was a golden age of DU, the flame wars have always been with us, and this place never was a friendly as everyone thinks it was.

[bpilgrim]

131. that's why you need to find BETTER solutions than PURGES imho

by letting all users rate and categorize all post you then let ALL your 'users' set their own filter on the CONTENT without purging the content ;->

well that's how one of the most trafficted boards on the internet deal with this COMMON issue.

DU is an AWESOME site just the same and i appreciate all your hard work :toast:

peace

[Kat 333]

164. lol ...

I've sometimes wondered about those "this place just isn't what it used to be" comments. When you have a group of bright, passionate, people, trying to discuss and discern a country gone mad - it is bound to draw fire now and again. Then add the few who are disrespectful, rude, know it alls, etc - I don't envy your job of trying to keep civility and order. I do, however, appreciate and thank you for your efforts that have made and kept this a refuge from the insanity of our current reality.

[KoKo]

102. It would help the tone if some Mods and Admins were polite, too. Some

have been more polite than others throughout the time I've been here.

But, the Leaders always need to "set the tone" for others to follow.
It's not always been true here, especially for us "oldies" who learned to follow the "new ways."

I'm being honest here in my criticism. I hope it won't be taken in a way I didn't intend it to be. I have usually tried to be polite, but have "freaked" out a time or two or three or whatever. But, a kind word would always set me straight. I'm sure I'm on the warning list. Have been feeling it coming :-(
Edited: typos

[Skinner]

124. I do my best to be polite, and to set the right tone.

And I expect the moderators to do the same. I am not perfect, nor have I ever claimed to be, nor do I expect the members of DU to be perfect.

[bpilgrim]

135. you certainly been a very reasonable 'NANNY'

but i imagine that role is the problem... not only for you and the mods but for many of your users :shrug:

but by me still here after all this time and many strongly worded post is testomite to your level handedness and it is certainly greatly appreciated :toast:

peace

[PapaClay]

103. So once again,

I find myself to be an underachiever.

Sigh....

:smoke:

[QC]

106. Skinner, does this meet the civility standards?

Counting votes, or anything for that matter, is a lost skill in Mississippi.

Poll workers Bubba and Sally Mae only have ten fingers each, for chrissakes!

Always remember: It's not the Red States vs. the Blue States. It's the Moron States vs. the Smart States.

Mississippi is very very moronic.

It's in the Mississippi Governor's Race thread. This particularly moronic bit of flamebait is still there, while the mods breathlessly rushed in within minutes to delete the considerably more tame responses to it.

Any idea what's going on with that? Are posts like this one considered acceptable discourse at DU?

[Skinner]

126. You've found the loophole.

Personal attacks against other members of DU are not allowed. Stupid, ignorant points of view are generally allowed.

[QC]

144. So insulting one knuckledragging troll is very very bad, but

insulting hundreds of active, loyal DUers is A-OK? With all due respect, that's the biggest load I've seen in a while.

I'm sorry to say that I just heard from one DUer, an active, loyal progressive and member of the forum, who is leaving specifically because of your response to my post.

I can't really say that I blame her, having left DU once before because the sheer hatefulness of the place got me down, and having wondered many times whether Southern Democrats have any reason to be here.

Perhaps it's time to leave this place to those who think that only agnostic vegans from Berkeley are pure enough to be Democrats.

[Skinner]

147. If it were the topic of a thread, it would be locked as flamebait.

In fact, the mods just locked a South-bashing thread in GD about 20 minutes ago.

For what it's worth -- there was a thread bashing hippies in the Lounge yesterday, and that was allowed to stay. I'm allowing your comment about "agnostic vegans from Berkeley" to stay.

There are frequent threads about supporters of various candidates, and they are often allowed to stay. There are frequent threads about Greens, far leftists, and DLC members, and they are often allowed to stay.

[Paschall]

149. Whew! I'm saved!

:dunce:

ON EDIT: A big THANKS to the ever-hardworking Mods and Admins! :applause:

[salin]

150. the hard thing with that post

is there are three responses - none terribly attractive:

1. ignore it (and then it stands - unopposed - as if there is tacit agreement in the sentiment)

2. respond with reciprocal sarcasm flipping the regions around - which is inflammatory to others and would generate a broader flame war.

3. call the person on the choice of words and problems with generalizations. For many posters who intentionally engage in taunting posts (eg those designed to be flamed) they will alert and push that this is an "attack" on them because they were called on their choice of words.

1 is hard to do - and again leaves tacit agreement on DU :(
2 and 3 are likely to get yanked.

The point, is the first post was taunting. I think that if a post invokes a series of flaming responses it should be viewed as a taunt and perhaps considering yanking the initial taunt might be warranted... Just viewed a thread with a post with a sliding taunt (sorta kinda skirts the rules) with a slew of deleted messages directly linked to that single post. Perhaps a few taunt type posts (when the post engenders such a broad reaction by many) should be viewed holistically - so even if the exact phrasing doesn't QUITE break the rules - its taunting nature and the ensuing (and probably intended) disruption should merit it, too, being deleted.

IMO, since primaries started kicking in, the sheer quantity of "taunting" posts has increased, and is just as incivil and disruptive as the responses those posts invoke.

[Robin Hood]

107. So, whatever happened to "It's like fight club but without the sweat"?

Those new rules don't seem to be working all that well. You're still going to have to get rid of long time contributors. I still miss Absynthe.

Absynthe where are you?

[CWebster]

114. Yeah, Absynthe...

an I\P thing? I could never moderate because I would never enforce the I\P gag law.

[youngred]

117. Actually they seem to be working quite well

can't account for taste I guess

[Skinner]

127. They are working quite well.

If your desire is less flaming and more thoughtful discourse they are working quite well. (Not perfect by any stretch, but there has been a modest improvement in the GD forum.) If your desire is no-holds-barred flame-bait posting, then you would likely not consider the current state of affairs in GD to be an improvement.

[bpilgrim]

132. what if you want BOTH?

you can have your 'cake' and 'eat it' too to boot.

we NEED a slash like method of moderation if you're interested i could elaborate :hi:

peace

[Skinner]

137. If you are looking for both...

just step outside the GD forum. I don't think you'll have much difficulty finding a flame war if that's what you want.

[bpilgrim]

139. well, i want it all

and i am suggesting possible solutions.

what do think about the solution suggested?

:hi:

btw: i am NOT 'looking for' 'flame wars'

peace

[Feanorcurufinwe]

138. slash moderation? no thank you

Slash moderation just leads to the tyranny of the majority. Unpopular viewpoints are modded down or not modded up and no one sees them. Reasonable moderators following reasonable rules works better.

[bpilgrim]

140. it is up to the end users to set their threshold

:hi:

peace

[Feanorcurufinwe]

158. Perhaps the 'Score' and 'Threshold' ideas are good

but the 'self-moderating' aspect is what I was talking about.

Let's say candidate 'X' has active supporters and candidate 'Y' has two supporters. All the pro-X and anti-Y posts would get modded up, all the pro-Y and anti-X posts would get modded down.

I believe the mods try to enforce the rules but self-moderating would simply reinforce the majority viewpoints. Just try posting unpopular opinions on slashdot, and see where they end up.

[bpilgrim]

141. here is even WORSE

here you are deleted.

peace

[Robin Hood]

155. Nope,

Sure can't account for good taste or adult behavior.

[youngred]

169. No you can't

which is why the rules were instituted actually

[Feanorcurufinwe]

109. Thank you!

I think the feedback on deleted posts will help. I've seen many posts with people complaining that their message was unfairly deleted -- and all they have to go on is their memory of what they said. But hindsight has a tendency to wear rose-colored glasses.

Bravo! I can't wait for the new software...

[TankLV]

112. I don't know about the rest of you,

and I KNOW I've been guilty of the noted abuses - even labeled one of my posts as a "personal attack" in the post - sometimes we just lose it - but back to my point -

I have spurts where I am absent from ed DU for stretches of time due to work or other reasons, and come back in to threads where posts are "removed" or "deleted" for some infraction or other, and I wish I had been there in time to see the offending post. My opinion is that somehow I've been cheated on seeing for myself what others have said. "Spice of life" and all.

Personally, I'd rather see the whole thread locked (everyone sent to their respective rooms for a "time out" to cool off) than to see the offending posts removed. Don't know if it's a "lookie loo" syndrom - slowing down to better see the accident on the other side of the road - but I feel like I've missed a good battle.

But in the end, you guys put your time in as mods, and I'm to0 lazy (or not as "perfect") to be one, so it's your call (stating the very obvious, obviously!)

Just my 2 cents.

Hey, maybe a fundraising idea: Maybe we can "pay" to subscribe to seeing some offending posts? I know, I know, I'm a sick puppy!

[bpilgrim]

134. lol

very good point though :hi:

i want it ALL, too ;->

peace

[bearfartinthewoods]

168. that won't work because you will have people willing to take the hit

and post flames with the specific intent of getting the thread locked.

it's one way of shutting down debate on stories they don't want to see or have others see. it used to happen often. two or three people flood a thread with flames and the mods would call it unredeemable and just shut it down rather than take the time to do all the deletions.

I really want to thank the mods who take the time to delete the posts and allow the conversation to continue.

[MaineDem]

116. I was confused

I had some posts deleted a few weeks ago and I'm still not sure why. I must have said something but I try to be civil all the time. It's funny how the "message deleted" thing really upset me. I was embarrassed, surprised, and confused.

I'll try harder. Sorry, guys!

[Skinner]

128. Thanks.

All we ask is that people try harder.

[loudsue]

129. I'm wondering about something you wrote, Skinner:

"The truth is that we don't actually have very many freepers here. But we do have a lots of rude progressives."

I've been sensing that DU Admins are desiring to take a more "moderate" direction on the board. When I first came to DU, shortly after its inception, progressives were in the majority, and were working very hard at research and political activism.

Lately, we've lost some great DUers who were driving forces behind political change to a more "populist" message. Some have been tombstoned, and some just haven't been back around at all. Actually, some of my "favorites"!

Are the progressive DUers now being considered the "rude" ones? :shrug: The trouble-makers?

[bpilgrim]

130. i hope not...

the mods will be busy if thats the case...

i have a SIMPLE solution.

1. let EVERYONE moderate (vote on value and categorize posts)
2. then let everyone set their OWN threshold FILTER

just like slash... it is the best way to deal with POPULARITY vs PURGES

my 2 cents...

peace

[Skinner]

136. No.

The rude members are now being considered the rude ones.

I think people from across the political spectrum have seen their "friends" tombstoned. The issue here is that people notice it when their friends are tombstoned and consider it unfair, but when their "opponents" are tombstoned they consider it justified and think "well, it's about time!"

ON EDIT: When I say "progressives" I mean that in the broad sense. I use progressive to refer to all of us, not to refer to the more liberal members of DU.

[RandomUser]

142. Question for Skinner

Is there any discernable pattern of where the deleted posts reside? Are they mostly in the I/P forum? Are they primarily in candidate bash threads? Or do they spread evenly all over the map?

[Skinner]

145. I don't know.

A random sample suggests that most are from the GD forum. But that's because most posts are in the GD forum.

[RandomUser]

146. Thanks for answering --- N/T

no text

[lovedems]

148. A word of wisdom?

I have seen some posts that look like they could have come from the "hate mail bag" (incidently I think the hate mail shows how utterly ignorant people can be.) To me, a "smart" person will attack the "argument/disagreement" rather than the person. If you resort to personal attacks I don't think you are showing creativity or a basis for why you believe the way you do. If you feel strongly about something you should be able to argue that on merit rather than personal attacks. Personal attacks and name calling are what the mouth pieces for the right do and I might not know everything, but I do know we are a hell of alot better than them. Just a thought from a new DU'er.

[ReddishPinko]

152. Were you joking when you said,

"Personal attacks and name calling are what the mouth pieces for the right do and I might not know everything, but I do know we are a hell of alot better than them."

:wtf:

[lovedems]

153. No

because those are the tactics Ann Coulter, Rush L., O'Lielly and the rest of the wing-nuts resort to and dems ARE better than that. They show their ignorance and intolerance for people who don't think like they do or agree with their %^$#ed up notion of politics. Would you prefer I was kidding and if so, why?

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lovedems]

159. Well,

I must be a hypocrite then because I do think WE (meaning DEMS) are better.

[JNelson6563]

154. I have a suggestion

I think you should lock threads like this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=654120

and force the hate-mongers to find something else to masturbate over.

I never thought I would see such hate and nastiness among my fellow Dems. I am very disappointed.

Julie

[Undemcided]

156. It's a bit like driving in traffic.

Lack of eye contact tends to make people act in a way they never would if we were all interacting in the 1st person. People will always disagree with each other but resorting to swear words and personal insults does little to advance your argument, in fact, it's probably the moment that you lose it.

[buddhamama]

160. i blame society

for that one time i broke the rules and had a post removed.

got the message. i'll do my best to be civil.

[1a2b3c]

161. So do you notify the top offenders?

Being in the dungeon i would imagine MrBenchley is one of the top offenders, does he get notified that he is pushing the wrong buttons? On the other hand, i havent got a message on a deleted post in months. Am i a regular or do you notify the regulars?

[Skinner]

167. Read my post.

The answer is in there.

[Generic Other]

162. So, if everyone has me on ignore

how do they know I'm not being civil?

Seriously, these rules make me worry about the future. Given enough time, I could see us all logging on to find 5 other folks posting on any given thread. Everyone else on ignore. Dangerous times we are entering.

What will happen to DU post-Nov. 2004? If Bush goes, will DU survive to see the victory party? Worse, if he doesn't go, will we run ourselvers off a cliff in a bloody stampede?

Could you bring grief counselors in for us all, Skinner? Just in case? A bunch of us folks are going to be ready to push up daisies in the real underground if we have to endure 4 more years.

I guess this worries me more than my deleted posts.

[jfxgillis]

163. Now that, Skinner, is a kick-ass

top-grade major-league job of MANAGMENT and ADMINISTRATION.

Just a gorgeous example of institutional policy implementation.

Even if I disagreed with everything you examined, decided and implemented, this would still be a monster event.

Makes me proud to be a member.

[slackmaster]

173. Skinner for President?

How about it? Is Skinner over 35 years old and a natural-born US citizen?

[Skinner]

174. Nope.

I'm 32.

I also would make a crappy president.

[xultar]

170. Can I tell Rush to eat

Shit? Is that bad?

[Skinner]

172. Not if you are starting a thread in the General Discussion forum.

Otherwise, that's allowed.

[bloom]

171. I was happy to see this today

I've been logging on less....

[karlspur]

175. Why can't I start a thread?

eom

[Maeve]

176. Because you haven't had enough posts till now

A minor rule that cuts down on the day-trippers who used to spam the board instantly with anti-democratic crap.

[MercutioATC]

177. In retrospect, because your first thread was locked as flamebait?

...Elad has made the DU software psychic.

[Terwilliger]

178. I think you should do what's necessary to run your website

like Democrats should do what's necessary to restore this country to the values we all truly share

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

181. Oh, what a blessed miracle! The dead have risen!

And have come to eat our brains, apparently.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

183. You lost me at "droopy drawers"

Pardon my confusion. Part of it stems from finding out that I am not old enough to vote, afterall. And the other is from the shock of being called "droopy drawers".

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

186. What do you mean, "rhetorical"?

We give literal blowjobs to Dean and Clark.

Since we are so money grubbing, as you so adeptly pointed out, we sell videos of it too.

Are you interested? Or do you find more than enough sexual release in disrupting political forums?

Your tactics of rogue "cut and paste" techniques have us all awestruck.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

190. So where might you suggest I look

For, you know, more appropriate discussion?

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

192. I have been to places where "free speech is honored"

Usually they are filled with immature assholes looking to get laid.

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

194. like Linda Hamilton say, "You're terminated, fucker!"