Is our goverment wasteful...

[alljunkmail]

Poll question: Is our goverment wasteful...

Using my great-grandfather's old login to ask this one...but, is our government, on any level, wasteful???

TheProdigal

[GOPisEvil]

In my experience with state government...

...there is no incentive to economize, as doing one's function with less money than is allocated will certainly lead to a reduction in future funding. :crazy:

[RichM]

1. Wasteful beyond hope: corporate welfare & the military-industrial complex

As Willie Sutton said: "That's where the money is..."

[ComerPerro]

2. Yes, its wasteful, but

part of that waste, I feel, is most evident in Bush's tax cuts and rebates.

Its just irresponsible to cut taxes in times of surplus, and then either cut social programs or horribly underfund them and use lack of revenues as an excuse.

In any large organization there is going to be waste.

I would like to see some solutions to this concern, maybe ways to make it more efficient. I feel this would help us silence conservatives who want to reduce the federal government just so they don't have to pay for someone's medicare or social security.

[Cat Atomic]

3. "Government waste" always seems to refer to welfare and medicine

for some reason. The real government waste is in the defense industry.

[angeleyes]

4. Actually.....

The biggest waste is the pay raise the politicians just gave themselves. What have they done to deserve this?

[VermontDem2004]

6. No the biggest waste is all the money spent on defense

[GeekLife]

35. No

While there is a tremendous amount of waste in the military, the biggest waste is the money the federal government (and governments at all levels) spend on things that are not the proper, nor constutionally proscribe functions of the government.

I know, your going to ask for examples. If you have to ask for examples you are not paying attention. Surely you can think of many many things government at all levels spend money on that they should not be.

And you think "all the money spent on defense" is a waste? To take your comment literally means you want to see NO money spent on defense. Surely you can not believe that. Do you?

[VermontDem2004]

38. I didn't say I wanted NO money spent

Interesting how you twisted my words around like that, but even Kucinich presented figures of the pentagon budget and there was way too much money invested into that. I think most of the waste is on defense, I mean 87 billion for Iraq could be better spent elsewhere.

[GeekLife]

41. $87 billion

could easily be found in waste in the defense budget. But $87 billion could easily be found in things that the government shouldnt be spending a dime on to begin with.

The military budget is a favorite whipping boy for fraud and abuse, and rightly so. But it is not the only place where massive fraud abounds.

And I didn't twist your words. You said, "the biggest waste is all the money spent on defense."

Words have meanings. And ALL has a definite meaning.

I poked at you on this to get you to try and better choose your wording.

[VermontDem2004]

5. Yes

Way to much money spent on defense.

[angeleyes]

12. So.....

You think it is ok that the politicians get a pay raise and you and I are struggling to keep our jobs? Or how about all those people who don't have a job?

[VermontDem2004]

14. Go out and get elected

Only select few are elected and their job is to vote on issues that effect us, I think that is a very important job. But the waste is clearly in the defense budget, I don't care how much my Senator makes there is much more waste out there.

[zoidberg]

21. All fed employees get a raise each year

It's a very nice perk. But only Congressional increases get the bad pub.

(And there is plenty of waste in government, not just in defense.) I bet anything that every department could take a 10% cut in funding and not have to cut services.

[VermontDem2004]

23. I agree

But I feel that the defense budget is extremely bloated.

[trotsky]

7. Waste is everywhere.

Even the most efficiently run private companies have wasteful spending. We're humans, we make errors.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

11. certainly

but should we be attempting to fix it rather than ignore it or make it worse???

TheProdigal

[salin]

25. Always

we should always be reviewing, assessing, addressing and fixing.

We should also recognize that the capacity for waste expands in large institutions - especially large monopolistic organizations (like - 1 of 2 possible contractors for a major govt contract due to sheer size (and political connections).

There seems to be this myth that business is inherently efficient. I suggest the large the business, the more two things happen: a) more bureacraticization (inherently - though ironically - inefficient); and b) more places for the greed impulse to be fed (more players at more leverage points). I think that very large corporations are excessively inefficient. Give me midsized or smaller businesses anyday - where the concepts of competition really DO play in real time.

I also find many nonprofit organizations follow the same pattern. The large the entity - the more leverage points for inefficiency - and fraud. The midsized and smaller organizations have to make due on very little, yet have to perform (or not be able to get funding). These are much more efficient organizations.

So yes, I think there is waste in government. I do not think it is inherently MORE wasteful than private industry (esp with BIG organizations). Where it is most blatantly wasteful is in 1) duplication of services (huge!) and 2) in pork projects that are political spending rather than necessary funding. Love that Newt used to bring BIG coast guard dollars back to his district...even though it is a land locked district!

Oh ya - there is inherent waste in government spending when it comes to protected bidding for HUGE projects (protected being - giving dictated by political considerations) this can be both like the egregious examples highlighted in Newsweek about Iraq reconstruction spending, but also in funky targeted "tax break" programs (tailored to fit only one or two companies - and that do not bring any inherent good back to the tax payers).

Thus - I believe that there needs to be good oversight. Frequent reviews on what needs are supposed to be addressed - are those still needs - are monies spent in ways that address those needs - are those monies spent efficiency. Reviews should not be like an audit - looking for a clean bill of health (though that should be a component) - but really the priorities (needs), (should those be adjusted??), study whether the programs meet those needs (evaluation, and change in programs if NOT meeting needs) etc.

I also think that periodic review of private costs for similar services is a good thing. I am not against all aspects of privatization - I just think review needs to happen to study efficiencies (so many states just jump to privatization - look at Jeb! - and in many cases it has been documented that costs have increased to the tax payer due to privatization - what good is that?!) - and best forms of deliveries - which very well might be private, but I believe often - is not.

I favor (gasp the heresy!) Block grants - where the goals (even standards) are set at the federal level (for federal monies) and then distributed to the state and local level for distrubution (private or public) to ensure that public needs are being met.

How is that for a long - convoluted - and probably a bit off the mark of what you were looking for - answer.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. great answer

and definitely not off the mark.

As you point out there is waste in almost every large organization especially where you mention. I do believe that many places in gov't are probably more wasteful due to lack of oversight...but you may be right about that point. Oversight is the answer...but a big answer, indeed!

TheProdigal

[GeekLife]

36. One advantage that private companies have

This is in regardes to your obsrevations about very large companies and their waste. The big advantage private companies have in their ability to fight waste and try to elminate it when it is found is that they have a far freeer hand and ability to fire people, lay off people, and cut spending on these things. They can also sell off or totally eliminate entire divisions, projects, etc...

That doesn't happen in government very often. In fact, almost never.

[Padraig18]

8. Nothing is scarier than an efficient bureaucracy!

Waste on! :P

[On the Road]

9. It's Fixable, but the Fixes are Difficult

Some things, like the incentives to ask for as large a budget as possible and to spend all your budget money, are a function of the organizational process and management culture.

Japan does a much better job at providing low-cost government services -- that shows it can be done. The Japanese just approach it with a different attitude. It's been done in war time in the US and Europe. Or in small organizations with a specific purpose, like FEMA, NOAA, or NIST.

Waste also exists in the private sector, but there are more incentives to get rid of it.

In a system like ours, part of it has to do with the attitude of the public. Legislators who bring wasteful spending into their districts are rewarded by their constituents.

I believe there needs to be a lot more study of how to design and manage public organizations.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. agreed...

excellent points...

TheProdigal

[zoidberg]

24. NTSB too

I've heard nothing but good things about the folks at NTSB. Guess because it is relatively small. I'm shocked at how much office space the DOT takes up.

[GeekLife]

37. Dead on

Some things, like the incentives to ask for as large a budget as possible and to spend all your budget money, are a function of the organizational process and management culture.

It is all to common that if every penny of the years budget hasnt been spent by a department they go on a spending spree for nonessential items at the end of the year to justify their budget and existence.

Waste also exists in the private sector, but there are more incentives to get rid of it.

It sure does. It is very common, and has happened repeatedly at my various employers over the years. A very large financial company I was with always had a standing practice of rewarding the discovery and elimination of waste. 10% of what was discovered and eliminated was paid to the employee as a bonus. My uncle got a $20,000 bonus a couple years ago for this from his employer.

[Braden]

13. got me there.

I thought Alljunkmail had somehow returned.

I think our Government is obscenely wasteful. Shamefully so.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

15. i don't think his resurrection

would be a possiblity though I would love to see him again. I miss him terribly sometimes...

TheProdigal

[ComerPerro]

18. I would like to add

That I appreciate you coming here, and ever since the post you wrote last spring I have had a great amount of respect for you.

For this reason, I try to keep my posts to you civil, and try to keep those responding to you civil as well.

I know you are conservative, so I know it might be difficult for you to be surrounded by a bunch of "whacked out communist America haters". But, I for one am glad to have you.

Besides, its nice to have the other viewpoint.

We have several posters who offer the right's perspective on certain issues (well, more of a centrist-right view, not hardcore right wing) and I always find their threads interesting.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

19. Thank you, ComerPerro!!!

I love coming here and see why my great-grandfather did, as well. Most of the time the points made here are very lucid and well thought out and have been a real eye-opener for me in many ways. I don't think I lean nearly as far the right as many of the other posters here think!

Thanks for the wonderful debate!

TheProdigal!

[ComerPerro]

20. It's good to see that your eyes are being opened

Like I said, I didn't have much time to talk to your great-grandfather, but from what I knew of him he was a wonderful man.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. thanks again!

I miss him, and wish he and I could exchange ideas once again. He was a rarity in this world.

On another note, a while back I lost my computer system at home and even though backed up, I have been unable to retrieve the lovely threads that soooo many people posted on here that were a tribute for him. That just makes me sick. I have spent some time seaching the archive but can no longer find them. EarlG was very helpful in recommending searches, to no avail!

TheProdigal

[ComerPerro]

27. I wish I could help you with that

Have you asked around? Maybe someone bookmarked it?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. not yet...but good idea!

I will ask now for anyone on this thread...did any of you happen to bookmark the threads related to the passing of my great-grandfather? I would love to see them again and have managed to shoot myself in the foot regarding that and they have been lost.

Thanks,
TheProdigal

[ComerPerro]

32. Try posting that as a new thread either here or in the lounge

That should turn out some responses.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. working on lounge thread now...

:-)

TheProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

16. 1...2...3...

punt...kick...boot...

Boards are really moving today

:kick:

[swinney]

17. Govt Waste--read this book

"when the pentagon was for sale" make you very sick on how many billions reagan-bush gave away.
[email protected]

[AP]

26. We've been wasting a lot of money on Bechtel, Haliburton, and rich lately.

Clinton actually reduced the size of the Fed gov't and got a lot more bang for the buck.

The Republicans, on the other hand, raised the debt limits, and look what we got.

[GeekLife]

40. Come on

Clinton actually reduced the size of the Fed gov't and got a lot more bang for the buck.

I don't care how many times people cite his claim of "the era of big government is over" it just is not true.

The size of the federal government has NEVER gotten smaller. Show me a single year where the budget of the federal government, its regulatory control and power, or its scope and reach into our lives got smaller during Clintons years (or any presidents years).

Some often cite, and you probably will as well, that the number of federal employees went down under Clinton. Yes and no. Taking out the reduction in the size of the armed forces tells a different story, and the number of contracters hired by the federal government instead of direct hiring is a monumental number.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Put me in the OTHER category

While there is government waste, the IRE of this waste is directed at the wrong agencies. Some agencies are wasteful because they are regulatory agencies and are DELIBERATELY understaffed or underfunded by those that disagree with the agency's regulatory accountability in the first place. The USDA is a greate example of an agency that looks good on paper but is underfunded compared tot eh task at hand which is the safe delivery of our food.

The FDA could be another example but there no matter WHO occupies the WH, what you see is a revolving door where industry lobbyists get appointments, then administratively alter the law to suit their industries, then return to their industries.

Others have already commented on Pentagon and defense industry waste. In fact, a barely read article a couple years back noted that the Pentagon cannot find 2.3 TRILLION dollars...one is flabberghasted to wonder how 2.3 TRILLION dollars is lost unless one is as cynical as me and largely suspects it isn't lost at all.

The Grace commission of the 80's was barely acknowledged, except for those aspects that suggested privatization..they were heeded but mostly resulted in private conpanies with LESS accountability tot the taxpayer getting contracts for previously poorly administered programs.

All avaliable data at least suggests that the Clinton administration DID do what they could to eliminate obvious waste. There is a report online by Al Gore, a study he commissioned and acted upon. (can't find the bookmark at the moment but if and when I do i will come back to it)

To get the REAL scope of what happens when the taxpayer is left out of the equation though, all one needs to do is look at the current ENERGY LEGISLATION being crafted by high level republicans. Even the CATO institute has a very critical editorial about it today.

A Complete Waste of Energy
This 1,700-page bill fails to address the fuel and power needs of the average American.

By Jerry Taylor and Dan Becker, Jerry Taylor is director of natural resource studies at the Cato Institute. Dan Becker is director for the Sierra Club's global warming and energy program.


A House-Senate energy conference committee is about to disgorge a 1,700-page legislative abomination that should cause both the left and right to choke. Although the bill has yet to be released, enough is known to conclude that it will be three parts corporate welfare and one part cynical politics. The bill is a shocking abdication of the administration and Congress' responsibility.

The centerpiece of the bill is a $16-billion package of tax breaks and production subsidies designed to further rig the market to favor well-connected energy producers (almost all of which enjoy plenty of federal handouts) at the expense of others.

The biggest winners will include nuclear power, small domestic oil producers (which dispense some of the highest-cost oil in the world market today), "clean coal" technology (which has yet to produce a commercially operable plant despite billions in public subsidies) and various exotic energy technologies that can't attract much private capital from skeptical investors.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-taylor29oct29,1,5150089.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions


Therefore, I reject the term WASTEFUL, when rigged for larceny is more appropriate.

BTW: Got a warm smile when I saw Junk's handle..thanks for that :D

[ProdigalJunkMail]

31. got it...OTHER for NSMA

I am sure Junk is reading :-) O8) Great to have you weigh in! It looks like oversight is so sorely needed...

TheProdigal

on edit : NothingMeShocksAnymore...damn, I still cannot type

[ProfessorGAC]

34. I Picked Yes, but I Can Live With It

Look, one of the canards of conservatism is that gov't is inherently less efficient and more wasteful than a private business.

There is waste in any large conglomerated financial construct. Gov't is no different.

However, if one looks at the re-engineering efforts, 6 Sigma initiatives, TQM efforts, external activity auditing procedures, that are done by large corporations, the initial results are always the same. Huge amounts of money are being wasted, and a there is a better way to do things to save that cash.

Now, if one looks at the U.S. gov't and compares the expenditures for which the value and return for the money is validly questionable, the percentage is actually lower than most multibillion dollar corporations. So, these firms are re-engineering, re-organizing, and triggering cash flow improvement initiatives to get better.

The federal gov't is no worse than the big corps. and it's operating budget is 15 times the largest corporation in the United States.

There is no waste in the Federal Gov't that is any greater than than that inherent in any huge conglomerate. The numbers (available in the Statistical Abstract of the United States) prove that out.

So, i said, sure there's waste, but i can live with it.
The Professor

[kentuck]

39. Is it possible to lose a million dollars and not know where it is?

How about a billion dollars? (That's a thousand millions)
Is it possible to lose a trillion dollars? (That's a thousand billions) And that is how much is missing from the Pentagon budgets and more! Waste? I'm shocked!

[alljunkmail]

42. i lose 5 bucks and I notice...

actually my wife notices and gives me hell about it! :-)

TheProdigal