I think I have changed my point of view

[leftofthedial]

I have been an ABB, stay here and defend my country, true progressive patriot kind of guy for my whole life. I've always disagreed with those who say they prefer to leave Murka while the getting is good. "Hell no!" I'd say. "I will stay here and fight for America until the end." I'm so frigging old that I went through that phenomenon over Viet Nam and now again over the GOPNAC junta.

But now, I'm not so sure anymore. I don't know if I want to live in a country where someone with the great ideas, ideals and commitment of a Dennis Kucinich can only muster 2% support among so-called Democrats.

I'm thinking that I'm a fish out of water here. I'd rather find a country where people are not blinkered reactionaries.

[liberalhistorian]

1. As distressing and discouraging as it is for me

to even think this, I have repeatedly said on here that if the Bushistas are still in power come Inauguration Day 2005, I'm taking the kid and getting the hell out of here to Canada, I don't give a good goddamn if I have a job or not. I have a college degree and a paralegal certificate, with research and writing experience so it shouldn't be too hard to find something.

I believe strongly in standing and fighting the good fight, and it breaks my heart to see what is happening to the country I love dearly and was once so proud of. And I will fight with everything I have until election day, 2005. If it doesn't go the way it needs to go to save the country, in the immortal words of that disgusting repuke Dennis Miller, I AM OUT OF HERE!

I will NOT stay in a country that elects the likes of him after all that he's done, and I will NOT stay and watch the rapid destruction, trashing, and total ruining of this great, beautiful country. I think he'll be far worse in a second term, since he won't have reelection to worry about, and I don't think we've seen even half of what he's really capable of. And I will not have my son used as cannon fodder for the gratification of his ego and the furtherance of his political and imperialistic ambitions.

[Deja Q]

8. Do that and Bush wins

I know how you feel, I've thought of leaving as well.

But your loss also means the loss of a Democratic vote.

If DU has helped to keep me from voting Green in critical races, the least I can do is to respond.

We must continue to fight.

And I worry he will be elected in 2004. :-( :scared:

[leftofthedial]

17. I would likely never leave

And certainly not before 2004.

But it is now in my mind as a distinct eventual possibility.

[Guaranteed]

24. I've been saying that for awhile now.

There's not a whole lot of reasons not to. The best are family.
When it comes to loyalty, your loyalty is only to your countrymen. But, you know, there comes a point where your countrymen have given you no reason to stick around and fight for them.
And the United States has trailblazed a path for democracy in the world. There are great things going on over in Europe right now, thankfully. There's no reason not to move there when the culture here is self-destructing. There's no reason to go down with the ship.
It's alright.

typos

[onebigbadwulf]

2. Me too

I'm applying to medical schools in Oceania, I can't take this place anymore.

And it's all because we can't make a simple thing like...

A LIBERAL COALITION

[RichM]

3. I agree. It speaks badly of a party, that a guy this good finds virtually

no support. This reflects far more on the party than on the candidate. So-called "liberals" are so gutless that they'll seriously consider nominating a creature of the military-industrial complex, who isn't a Democrat & isn't a liberal, rather than supporting someone who is both in the best sense of the terms. Today's liberals are ashamed of who & what they really are. They desperately hope they can make people love them more, by pretending to be something they're not.

[w4rma]

12. gutless

So, do you consider "liberals" who would move out of the country instead of fighting for it, "gutless"?

IMHO, if this problem isn't stopped here in the U.S., then eventually there will be nowhere safe from it. Remember that the U.S. has the largest military in the world and some pretty crazy people are running the show here now, if they aren't forced to moderate, then our current problems will be small potatoes to what is coming down the pike.

[RichM]

13. "No" on the first question, but I agree with you on the second.

I certainly believe there's really no hiding from this crisis. It's global in nature, & people who think they'll escape it by moving somewhere else are kidding themselves, for the most part.

I don't have a pat judgement about individuals who want to try to move. I can imagine why one might call them "gutless" - but I don't see them that way. It's actually kind of brave to undertake the risk & adventure of moving to another country.

[leftofthedial]

18. Until recently I *did* consider such emigrees "gutless"

I do not hink that even with four more years of GOPNAC American fascism that the whole world would become some neocon dystopia. Political necessity might push some European governments superficially to the right and probably some would in fact become truly repressive, I suppose.

But I'm talking more about the character of the people, not the political malleability of their "leaders." Having lived through both Nixon and Reagan winning landslide second terms, I'm not one to expect much political good from the American people, but these days, I have started to seriously doubt the intrinsic goodness of the American character.

We have either become a nation of fascists, by fascists and for fascists, or we have become a nation of sheep, happily and irredeemably manipulated by fascists for fascists. There is ample evidence for both possibilities. Perhaps they are ultimately the same thing.

[FlemingsGhost]

4. "Nations" are nothing more than lines on a map.

(O.K., sometimes there are walls, too)

Go ahead... become the global citizen that--sooner or later--we all recognize ourselves to be, shed the guilt-laden myth of loyalty to country and spread your wings. Fly high.

Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. ain't the only game in town...

[Zorra]

5. I'm already gone, left

after the 2000 election. I had made a decision, and preparations to leave, in case * got elected. I waited until the Supreme Court decision, heard the decision, cried in my backyard, then split. It was a great decision.

Save lots of cash if you plan to leave. Latin America can be very inexpensive once you learn the ropes. It really helps to know Spanish.

[uberotto]

6. Maybe instead of complaining about it...

you should use some of that energy figuring out why Kucinich is polling so low.

I'll help you get started...

Politics is 99% perception, so what is it about Kucinich that causes people to not perceive him as a good fit for the job of President?

What would you suggest he do to change this perception?

What can you do to help him to change this perception?

Here's another clue...

What you are doing now, isn't it.

[leftofthedial]

7. are you seriously suggesting that anything I might do

would make several hundred thousand alleged Democrats around the country change their opinions of DK?

I think that's ludicrous. I have swayed many people to support him, but I can't do much more than what I am doing now.

[E_Zapata]

10. Hey Friend, you just turned my vote to Kucinich!

No kidding. You did. It is absurd that alleged liberal democrats refuse to vote for the coined 'unelectable'. I was going with Kerry due to his lead over Kucinich. But I don't really want Kerry as prez. I want Kucinich.

Thanks!

And, I want to get out of this god forsaken land of hypocrisy as soon as possible. Can you envision the sheer numbers of people trying to leave this country mid-Nov 2004?

It will be the 1st time in history that other countries will have to decide whether to harbor American refugees or not. And, given that the Bush clan is so vindictive, do you think it would be in a country's best interest to take in refugees? I don't.

If Bush steals the election, there won't be a lot of immigration out of this country.

[leftofthedial]

16. Thanks for cheering me up a bit

If only a few hundred thousand more of us were here at DU . . .

I don't know if emigration will become more difficult after a Bush win (and I certainly hope that catastrophe does not come to pass) in 2004. But I do believe many other countries will be forced further to the right by the further entrenchment of American fascism, especially with bullying vermin like Shitforbrains in charge and with nothing to lose for 4 years.

[E_Zapata]

9. Perception is created by the MEDIA.

What do you suggest we do about the media?

For god's sakes!

[onebigbadwulf]

20. Why Kucinich is low

you should use some of that energy figuring out why Kucinich is polling so low.

1. He has a bad political record

2. He looks like a gnome

[WillyBrandt]

11. BOOOOOO! BOOOOOO!

What a bunch of self-indulgent tripe. America is an utterly wonderful country, ruled by evil, stupid crooks who do horrible things and hate what the US is supposed to stand for.

But yet: What is to be done?

It took the Right half a century to get to where it is now--at a point where it can chip away at the progress we made in the 20th century. And that strangehold on power that it appeared to have is starting to look a little illusory and the numbers fall and fall.

At the same time, liberals are in fits and starts organizing and fighting and waking up. (It hasn't been 100%, but anyone who denies this isn't paying attention.) This is the moment in which we've got to fight to take our country back. Either we abandon it to the nuts and to hell, or we fight to let AMERICAN IDEALS (not right-wing crackpottery) of fairness and equality and opportunity trumph.

Leave the country? What are you talking about? So DK is not on the short list of many Democrats. Here's a secret: it's not merely a matter of ideology. Some of us think, for many reasons, some cynical, that DK cannot beat Bush for reasons utterly unconnected to ideology. He's too short, and isn't good at giving a moderate, centrist gloss to progressive ideas (which is how you win). DK is a wonderful, wonderful human being and I wish he was Speaker of the House. But our challenge this election is not electing a person who can speak to our hearts, but who can help us save our nation, and resurrect its deep, albiet latent, progressive soul.

Some of us think that not only can we use this upcoming election to eject the Fraud, but we can use to to begin to turn back the right wing assault of the last half-century. To stay on my high horse a bit long--some of us think that this is a truly wonderful country that can do good both at home and abroad, and it must not be abandoned when it is under attack from ideologues.

It's a long, hard fight, but we've got to fight it. Don't leave. Get a place in Madison, WI, organize, and let's steer this nation aright again.

[leftofthedial]

15. At the risk of adding more tripe to this menudo . . .

I'm no Pollyanna. I'm a political pragmatist. Despite my personal progressivism, I truly believe that Joe Lieberman is a marginal improvement over Bush and would deserve my vote if nominated. I have never believed that Kucinich was likely to win. My best hope, barring a miracle win, was that his ideas would help to inform the debate during the primaries and influence the outcome. Instead, he has been marginalized to the point that his ideas are not even discussed. At best they are ignored; at worst they are discredited. There apparently is no room at the national Democratic political inn for the candidate with the truest, best articulated Democratic principles.

That said, my point is not that I've become some sort of weepy jaded idealist. To the contrary, I'm simply becoming less and less convinced of the truth of your second sentence.

I see the biggest state in the union unapologetically "elect" a lightweight, right wing, serial sexual molestor with no discernible policies at all to be their governor. I see 98% of so-called Democrats rejecting Kucinich's message (and I don't buy the argument that most of them simply prefer someone taller). I see fully half of all Americans stating that they believe that the current parasite occupying the White House is doing a good job and deserves reelection (sic), despite a transparently dismal three-year record of failure, catastrophe, scandal and crime. Yeah, it's wonderful that it's not 92% of Americans anymore, but it's still half!

I believe in the fairy tale America they taught me about in school: freedom, democracy, equality. That America was a wonderful place. Sadly, those principles--if they ever really existed in practice--have become just so much empty rhetoric to most Americans. Like slobbering Pavlovian dogs, they reliably jump to attention and slap another flag decal on the window of their SUV when you ring the "patriotism" bell, but they seem little interested in the true expression, practice or defense of the ideals that flag was supposed to represent.

In one sense America is a wonderful place. I like the mountains and the prairies and all, but it seems to me there are a couple of hundred million people here who will never be on our side and who aren't worth saving.

Meanwhile, there are other wonderful places on this planet, populated with people who really do care more about truth and justice and their fellow humans than they do about purchasing an even bigger monster truck on worthless credit and fuck everyone else.

[lostnfound]

23. Very well said (except for 'not-worth-saving')

Everyone is worth saving.

"Like slobbering Pavlovian dogs, they reliably jump to attention and slap another flag decal on the window of their SUV when you ring the "patriotism" bell, but they seem little interested in the true expression, practice or defense of the ideals that flag was supposed to represent." LOL - that's a keeper.

[lostnfound]

22. He'd make a GREAT speaker of the house, wouldn't he?

Truthfully, even I'd probably be happier with that than DK as Pres (assuming, of course, a suitable Pres could be found).

[leftofthedial]

25. I just hope he finds a leadership role

of some sort. We need someone to fight for our ideals.

[HornBuckler]

14. I Hear Ya

I For One Am Gonna Fight Tooth And Nail Until 2005, And If That Rat Fink Fuck is Still In Power, I May Have To Leave. But Others Bring Up A Great Point. If We All Leave (Or A Sizeable Sum) What Dems Does That Leave? But In All Honesty, I Weigh The Positives And The Negatives And I Don't Want To Live In A Country Full Of Idiots.

[rhite5]

19. I hear ya, too.

It is hard to face the fact that Kucinich issues are being ignored. The media has completely wiped him and his issues off their radar screens. We have to resort to writing letters to the editor to even get his name in the paper.

I had hoped, even expected, that his issues would become part of the public discourse. I was sure they could influence the platforms of other candidates, at least a little. I think they did a bit on the $87 Billion appropriation, but we saw that message sure did not reach the Senators.

At the same time, I keep meeting people who love Kucinich and his entire program. They are everywhere. Not just in the Peace and Justice movement. Many, many supporters of other candidates have honestly said the Kucinich program is the one they would prefer.

We have to trust that the seeds have been planted and need to be nurtured. They will grow in time and we can help that to happen.

In the meantime, we DO have to defeat the Right Wing cabal and win the White House. I have decided to work on getting information out on specific issues like Public Power and globalization and electronic voting, rather than continue to campaign for Kucinich.

My vote will probably go to Howard Dean. I believe his populist campaign can win, and it is a genuine populist campaign, not a pretend one. That part is important to me. We disagree on some issues, but I can compromise for now.

If I were younger, I might consider leaving. If I had near draft-age children I would definitely consider leaving.

[rucky]

21. Please Vote Before You Skip Town...

for OUR sake

[leftofthedial]

26. I always vote

and I will this time too.

Especially this time.