If you are worried about a US attack on Iran...

[WilliamPitt]

Read this:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-10/31/content_387140.htm

China, Iran sign biggest oil & gas deal
(CRI)
Updated: 2004-10-31 08:51

China's oil giant Sinopec Group has signed a US$70 billion oil and natural gas agreement with Iran, which is China's biggest energy deal with the No. 2 OPEC producer.

Under a memorandum of understanding signed Thursday, Sinopec Group will buy 250 million tons of liquefied natural gas over 30 years from Iran and develop the giant Yadavaran field.

Iran is also committed to export 150,000 barrels per day of crude oil to China for 25 years at market prices after commissioning of the field.

Iran's oil Minister Bijan Zanganeh, who is on a two-day visit to Beijing pursuing closer ties, said Iran is China's biggest oil supplier and wants to be its long-term business partner.

...more...

====

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3970855.stm

China to develop Iran oil field
BBC

China has signed an agreement to buy oil and gas from Iran and to develop Iran's Yadavaran oil field, according to state media from both countries.

The deal was signed in Beijing by Iranian oil minister Bijan Zanganeh and Ma Kai, head of China's National Development and Reform Commission.

China, which has longstanding ties with Iran, is searching for new energy reserves to drive its booming economy.

The agreement will be carried out by Chinese oil company Sinopec.

Wider implications

The prospect of Beijing increasing its reliance on Iranian energy sources may spark concern in Washington, however, as the US is spearheading international efforts to curb Iran's nuclear programme.

Success may depend on China's support, as it is one of five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council.

The UN has asked Iran to suspend all uranium enrichment or face referral the Security Council, but Iran's parliament has voted in favour of a law making it obligatory for the Iranian government to pursue uranium enrichment.

China and Iran share an alliance as developing nations and visits by senior leaders are commonplace. In April, Iranian Vice-President Mohammad Setarifar co-chaired the twelfth China-Iran Co-operation Commission meeting in Beijing.

...more...

====

http://mondediplo.com/2003/10/09debt

US: the world’s deepest debtor
By Philip S Golub

ONE of the curious features of US hegemony is that it depends on the apparently limitless willingness of US allies - and even of some future competitors, such as China - to finance the apparently limit less budget and trade deficits of the US. Over the past 20 years the US has become the world’s leading debtor, its net foreign debt rising from $250bn in 1982 to $2.2 trillion in 2001, 23% of GDP - almost equal to the $2.5 trillion owed by five billion people in the whole of the developing world.

Thanks to President George Bush’s $600bn budget deficit (although he actually inherited a surplus from Bill Clinton), a persistent trade deficit with Asia and near zero savings rates, US net debt is growing, requiring daily inflows of billions of foreign-sourced dollars to cover the difference. These public and private flows are invested in sovereign debt instruments or the equity markets. As the US Federal Reserve noted in its latest quarterly report, foreigners now own 38% of US Treasury securities, more than twice the amount a decade ago.

This means that the US has mobilised an ever-greater share of world savings to finance US consumption, economic growth, living standards and military expansion. Most of those savings are from East Asia. Japan, China, the newly-industrialised countries and middle-income countries, such as Thailand, have accumulated vast resources that are not locally consumed or used for productive purposes but invested in dollar paper assets. Flows into these assets keep US interest rates low and boost the value of the dollar, allowing the US to import cheaply from the rest of the world. East Asia finances US debt in return for continued unrestricted access to the US market. This arrangement suits Asian exporters but inhibits the use of resources in other ways.

...more...

====

Put it together.

China and Iran are now major oil partners. China's economy is booming, but the one thing they lack and need is oil. Iran will now supply that necessary element.

China also owns a giant chunk of our debt, which means they own a giant chunk of our economy.

If we attack Iran, we are in many respects also attacking China, their economy, and their oil pipeline.

We do not want to attack China. They can annihilate us without firing a shot.

We will not bomb Iran.

[undeterred]

1. Don't bomb the hands that lend to you...

[EuroObserver]

68. Brits on the plate, here! n/t

[sarcasmo]

77. IMHO, Israel will start the bombing and the new Amerika under MR Danger

will just join in.

[cantstandbush]

122. This time, i think Israel will bite off more than she can chew. The US

is in no really good position to strongly back Israel this time. We screwed up in Iraq and the rest of the world doesn't really like us or Israel for racing to unseat Saddam. Israel's only recourse will be to use nuclear and that will be a disaster for Israel and everyone else in the region. Can you imagine using "hot" gasoline in you car?

[woodsprite]

2. A sane pres. or administration would think that way, but remember...

Everyone in this admin is 9 cents short of a dime.

[WilliamPitt]

5. Recall

two events in the last few years:

The collision between our plane and China's plane, during which Bush bowed and scraped and kowtowed to China;

China's passage of their We-will-invade-Taiwan-whenever-we-damned-well-please law, and Bush's wimpy non-response.

They may not be sane, but they are indeed bullies. Bullies tend to back down in the face of bigger, stronger bullies. China has our nuts in a vice. The bullies in this admin know it.

[Beetwasher]

21. Dupe

n/t

[bananas]

27. Sy Hersh says Bush is serious about changing the middle east

President Cuckoobananas is on a Mission from God.
China can negotiate with the new Iranian government for oil.
Have you seen Syriana yet?

[dooner]

90. Saw Syriana last night...

GREAT movie for helping put news like this in context. There was a line in the movie about China and oil... The US was proud of the fact that China has been blocked from getting enough oil to grow their economy and become a real player/threat to us. When China got close to signing a big middle east oil deal in the movie, we couldn't let it happen.

HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE MOVIE, I haven't seen it discussed on DU?

[bananas]

110. It reminded me of "The Godfather"

I've seen threads about Syriana, but I didn't read most of the them because I didn't want any spoilers (I just saw it on Sunday).

I did read and save this thread, read the full article she links to:
"Absolutely MINDBENDING "Syriana" info...Really! REALLY!"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5673334&mesg_id=5673334

[dooner]

124. Thanks! n/t

[flyarm]

54. I NEVER THOUGHT THE DAY WOULD COME THAT I WISHED

a communistic country would have our balls in a vice and twisting in the wind...but i sure am happy China has check mated * and the neo cons...i have waited and waited for a democratic country to step up to the plate and stop these son of a bitches...
i can only imagine that germans under hitler felt the same way..those who were evolved and understood what was happening..they waited helplessly...for a democratic country to come to their rescue...and stop the damn evil within their nation...

now it is "we" who await help from outside..because our own are so damn stupid..lazy...and do not understand or are ignorant of history...or are so "one" minded..and by that i mean "one issue" dumbed down...

now i find myself praying for a communistic country to come to our rescue...wow...who would have thunk it..my whole generation lived with the evil of cold war and the threat of a communistic country...ducking under our school desks and marching to metal bunkers..from school...and sitting in hallways in our schools...with our coats over our heads....and the very people we were taught to fear..may be the very ones to save our democracy...

sometimes i think i will go crazy with the stupidity with this nations people today...

even my husband last night was more taken with his new ipod and ignored my telling him what was going on...and i thought..ok..so you think that ipod will save you??
and when your democracy is gone..kaput..zap..gone...will that fucking ipod save your sorry ass?????????????????

no..seems the chinese possibly will..the same chinese my dad told to get the "f" out of his way as he drove a truck through the china wall during wwII..

thanks Will for this uplifting news,..i only hope and pray..the chinese powers stopped * in his tracks..and actually did "check mate" *..

i know somehow some way my child will pay for all of this...and that is my greatest fear in life..in fact my only fear....

* will never ..ever... make me live in fear from outsiders..it is only his bunch of mother fuckers in this white house who give me any fear!!

fly

[EuroObserver]

67. Hey, please be easy/patient with Hubby, flyarm

You love him, remember?

[flyarm]

97. ahhh naaaa..he is usually 10000% behind all my activism..

and all the work i do...for the good of this nation..just once in a while he thinks i pod is more important!! lol..and that pisses me off..that and football..

he is not active in any way..but he supports all i do..so i am not all over him..i do love him..and he always supports me with the $$$ necessary to get this bastard out of the wh...and with his emotional support..but once in a while...i loose patients with his blase' attitude..thats all...

i love him..and he puts up with my activism...so all is cool...if he would only put the ipod down and turn the dang football game off once in a while..well you get what i mean!!...

and i have been at this since the day of 9/11 ..sooooooooo...and we housed the field rep for kerry..for 7 mos...and our kitchen table was headquarters for many many months...sooooooooo he has had more than most men would deal with!!
so ok..i give..he is a good one..and my rant is over!!


fly

[wiggs]

59. Hard to grasp why the administration doubled the national debt held

by foreign countries over the last five years. Shortsightedness? Mistake/incompetence...didn't realize it would limit US influence over China? Greed? Underestimation of China? Looking for an all-out winner take all conflict in Iran while we are still the only superpower?

I don't get it.

[Gronk Groks]

82. All the above...

...since shrub thinks he is above the U.S. Constitution, the courts and the American Public; how would ever consider the Communist Chinese a threat???

[YourBrother]

114. or

has a vested interest in more shots being fired

[Marlie]

3. Thanks Will

I think you are right, we will not attack Iran but the fact that China owns us
is indeed frightening. It seems as though everyone is become strong allies with
everyone but the United States. The Latin American countries are bonding with
each other and attempting to exclude us. The World really does hate Bush and
the American people will be the ones to suffer in the long run. This poor
Administration, what will they do if they can't wage constant war?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

6. Then read this - is it a matter of weeks?

In light of the information coming our of Germany -

read this background:

http://www.energybulletin.net/2913.html

The Real Reasons Why Iran is the Next Target: The Emerging Euro-denominated International Oil Marker

[WilliamPitt]

11. Global Research

can come to some shaky conclusions from time to time.

"Numerous articles have revealed Pentagon planning for operations against Iran as early as 2005."

They better hurry; only a few days left in 2005.

None of this essay recognizes the economic gun China holds to our head. It is a significant factor.

[alfredo]

17. Other than cutting off our line of credit, how would China

foreclose? Maybe we can give them Alabama and call it even?

[WilliamPitt]

18. I'm from Alabama, and so is half my family

So no, that won't get it done.

You say "cutting off our credit line" like it's a small deal. Imagine our economy after every Treasury Bond becomes worth less than the paper it is printed on. Etc.

[Selatius]

38. I heard they want to stop reporting M3 money, I believe?

Couldn't Bush resort to something foolish such as simply printing more money and using it to pay off the debt? (I know, it'll cause hyperinflation, but Bush doesn't seem like he cares what happens to the rest of the country)

[EuroObserver]

72. Printing money? They're doing that massively already, Selatius.

Check out Stock Market Watch, for example, every working day here in DU.

[alfredo]

46. bush's friends are multimillionaires and billionaires, they don't care

what happens to the rest of us. They would become even more powerful if the economy collapsed. Imagine millions of people willing work for near nothing endure the harshest conditions just to survive. It's a capitalist wet dream. They will have total information control, over a population too hungry, too scared, and too desperate to rise up against them.

Considering the direction in which bush is sending this country, China might end up being a better deal. they are slowly liberalizing their economy and politics. Though they have a long way to go on human rights, they seem to be in a situation where they will have to start listening to an educated, wealthier population. The people will demand it.

America is going in the other direction into an authoritarian theocracy where poverty, brutality, and ignorance is the norm.

[No Exit]

94. I have a slightly more hopeful view of it.

I believe that the bigger you are, the harder you will fall. I think that it is the rich who stand to lose the most if the economy fails. I mean, he who has little, has little to lose.

I would almost be willing to be wiped out, if I could only see those rich, warmongering, bastards standing on the same street corner next to me, begging for a bowl of soup.

[alfredo]

96. I think there are some of the rich that have a clue. They are

puzzled why bush is lavishing on them tax cuts they don't need or necessarily want. If we get another neo con controlled government in 2008 there will be an uprising.

Read about the Republicans and Leo Strauss. There is no doubt they desire a totalitarian state run by a small elite.

[No Exit]

112. Oh, don't worry, I know about Strauss.

I think those rich people who actually got money b/c they were clever and resourceful, well, those character traits will help them to land on their feet no matter what happens. But, the rich people who just got what they have by stealing and cheating, they will have to steal and cheat a lot more, in order to keep their heads up, in a crisis. And the people who just happened to end up with tons of money, they won't have a clue.

But those who have less, will lose less.

I wish there WOULD be an uprising to protest any neocon government we might get. But frankly, some of us thought people would take to the streets over the stolen election. But they didn't. And when people DO take to the streets over the war in Iraq--again and again, good people, out there, trying to get the message to the bastards in D.C.--it's treated as though it never happened. Bush appears to not even react. It disgusts me.

James Wolcott had a really good column a while back about the Straussians. He also went into the background of Wm. Kristol's parents, Gertrud Himmelfarb and Irving Kristol. They're still living, I believe. I remember years ago when I used to read Jonah Goldberg's scribblings. I remember him saying that Irving Kristol was his ultimate hero. At the time, I didn't have a clear view of this poisonous "neocon" bunch. I do now.

[YourBrother]

117. MONEY!

It's a gas ...

i'm alright jack keeps ya hands offa my stack!

[hfojvt]

47. imagine their economy

if we were not buying tons of their stuff. The jobs losses would have a huge ripple effect. It is also highly unlikely that Treasury Bonds become worthless. Loss of many investors would just raise the interest rate, as the interest rate goes up it becomes more attractive to other investors. The Chinese, meanwhile, have lots of US dollars. What are they going to do with them? Sit on them, and watch them lose value? They either have to spend or invest in America with American dollars, both of which, in theory, should create, or support, American jobs. They depend on us quite a bit too.

[alfredo]

51. Remember Japan came in and bought up a lot of property and

businesses. Of course when their economy stagnated, they sold much of their holdings off.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

62. People forget...

That our Great Depression was part of a world-wide recession. It's in their best interest to keep us barely afloat.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

53. Imagine the NeoCons caring about anyone but the Top 1%....

...they couldn't possibly care any less for what the American people will be going through if such a scenario should take place.

[sexybomber]

61. If such a scenario should take place...

I think it will end up being in their best interests to care.

If we end up in the situation of a total, catastrophic economic collapse, the top 1% will be faced with the other 99% of the populace, who will be hungry, freezing, destitute, and VERY, VERY ANGRY at the people who caused it.

Think thousands of angry ex-workers storming the bastions of capitalism and the houses of the top 1%. I'm not entirely sure they'd want to deal with that, since at that point, it would affect their own selfish livelihoods.

Although I doubt many of them are farsighted enough to realize the inevitability of such a scenario, given their current business practices.

on edit: No, I don't wish for such a scenario, but I'm afraid it may well come to pass.

[No Exit]

93. I'm from Alabama, and they can have it

at least, as it stands now. Drayton Nabors on the Supreme Court. No thank you. Don Siegelman the subject of ANOTHER phony, trumped-up, republican-engineered indictment. Roy Moore. Troy King. JEFF SESSIONS. They can f**kin' have it.

[EuroObserver]

71. Sweet home Alabama.

Thing is, your/our fiat currencies become worth less every day. What's to back them up, other than force of (no, not arms), culture?

[Coastie for Truth]

81. I have been saying that - and called all kinds of names--

, see also - wake up folks - it's all about OIL not "Greater Israel" or Sharon -- but Dave O'Reilly (CEO of TexacoChevron) and Lee Raymond (CEO of ExxonMobil). For a more progessive view see James Howard Kunstler's "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century" and actually read PNAC's - it's all about OIL.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tularetom]

7. Easy for you to say

but the asswipes making the decisions don't have your ability to see the big picture.

[WilliamPitt]

9. Read post #5

[Jed Dilligan]

8. But who in Washington

has the intellect AND the power to bring this to the attention of the pinheads in charge??

[WilliamPitt]

10. Read post #5

It doesn't take a genius to understand the implications of a gun barrel pressed against their head.

[ozymandius]

12. Remember that Japan has been doing much the same for three years now.

Japan signed a contract to "manage" western oilfields in Iran. So let's see... Currently we owe Japan over $700 billion. We owe China almost $200 billion.

The fact that we must import $2 billion every day to keep this dog-and-pony show running makes me wonder why the United States would want to go to war against their real central bankers.

[European Socialist]

13. An attack on Iran would be a catastrophe--war anywhere in the world...

is getting harder to justify.

[Oversea Visitor]

14. It will get scary

when Russia, China start giving out warning to US on Iran.
They will speak out if there is any real intention.
I for one think WP is right
But I also noted the increase in Russia strike capabilities
And also all those war games between China and Russia.
India is an unknown elements so far but I think India likely to swing with China Russia in future.

Bush can talk but he better no do. Some big bad dude watching him hey. They slap him around bad when he try to do.

[eleny]

15. China also has an oil deal with Argentina

I'd conclude that attacking or messing with the governments of either nation would be unwise. But w is such a lunatic sociopath.

[The Stranger]

16. Eastasia, Eurasia and Oceania . . .

War is Peace . . .

[EuroObserver]

73. Love is hate

Truth is lies,

Freedom is slavery,

2 + 2 = 5

[TomClash]

19. Right answer, Wrong analysis

The Chinese hold approximately $260b in UST securities, less than half what Japan holds and slightly more than British investment in the UST. And Iran is not the only contry China has signed energy deals with - Venezuela, Ecuador, Kazakhstan and Canada have also recently agreed to Chinese energy deals.

It's the cozy relationship between fascist Chinese government and US multinationals (and the Bush crowd) that is worrisome, not the debt. US multinationals have seen China - the land that human rights forgot - as a double market benefit - a very cheap labor market and an enormous new market for goods and services. These three whores (the Chinese Government, the Global Business Elite and the Bush cabal) will sell, kill and maim to keep those two benefits. So there's no doubt that if we successfully invaded Iran, we'd be selling Iranian oil to China.

The US will not invade Iran because we fear the consequences. Think about Almadinejad's recent pronouncements - he can deny the Holocaust and refuse UN inspectors - because he knows he will not have to pay a price. But that's not because of China - it's because he already has an effective deterrent against the US and Israel. At least one analyst has speculated that Iran may already have jumped the shark - I fear he's right.

[cliss]

25. Yes, that's the conclusion I came to, also.

When Bush started the saber-rattling last year about Iran, lots of people were understandably nervous. Will he invade Iran? Is it even possible to do it, considering we're broke and short of manpower?

I always felt that while these things would never be an obstacle to Bush, there are other things that ARE. Namely, China, India, Russia. I believe these 3 powers got together to make sure Bush would not do such a foolish thing. Russia has sold missiles to the Iranians. Hugo Chavez has made some high-visibility visits to that country.

Iran is beyond Bush's reach, much as he lusts for that country. I've read that while Saudi Arabia's oil fields are stagnating and will soon sputter their last drops, Iran's oil fields are JUST STARTING. I've actually read that it will be Iran, not SA that has the world's #1 supply of oil.

There is no question they have the world's #1 supply of natural gas. So they are unbelievably resource-rich. Bush just keeps jabbing away at them, trying to ferret out some weakness, or maybe a cunning way of breaking them down. I'm positive the US has operatives in that country, trying to foment dissent.

Conclusion = Iran is out of his reach.

[WilliamPitt]

30. Want to win a war with Iran?

Park a satellite in geosynchronous orbit above Tehran and beam down MTV, BBC News and ESPN 24/7/365. 75% of the country is young, and does not bear great animosity toward the West. Most have satellite dishes.

[depakid]

104. Just don't beam down the vast majority of crap

on the cable & network channels. LOL. That'll lose their hearts and minds for sure. In one short season!

[Beam Me Up]

28. "If we successfully invaded Iran, we'd be selling Iranian oil to China."

That sentence deserves a lot of eyeballs.

Indeed, Iran may have already 'jumped the shark' and have a nuclear capacity.

Does the US care? Don't they WANT a world in which the use of nukes is accepted as necessary?

[newspeak]

41. it would be the disruption of oil flow

that would concern China. Look how this administration has handled the oil flow in Iraq? I don't think the Chinese would allow the disruption-they've seen how this administration has handled Iraq.

[Cleita]

20. A less ideological and smarter administration wouldn't

attack or bomb Iran considering the reasons you posit. With the present company in power now though, I wouldn't put anything past them. They seem to be driven by a belief that it is their destiny to do exactly what they are doing. The PNAC website makes this pretty clear.

However, I hope you are right and saner minds prevail in this.

[Hubert Flottz]

23. If Gawd tells Junior to strike, Junior will strike!

We know Gawd loves to stir up the shit!

[Beetwasher]

22. I'm Of The Mind That We Should All Probably Start Learning Chinese

or at least start teaching it to our children to prepare them for the future.

Hey, happy holidays bud! Hope all is well!

[onecent]

31. Funny that you say this, it just showed our our Channel 4 news

at noon that some schools in the Johnson County of Kansas (part of Kansas City, MO) is offering Chinese next year in their senior high schools. Creepy!

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. That's not new

I live across the street from where the International Studies School in Shawnee Mission was located until just a few years ago. It moved to another building. And last I heard, they were still offering several foreign language classes there, including Chinese. Maybe you heard these classes would be offered in the high schools? That would be new, but Chinese language classes in Shawnee Mission are not.

[Beam Me Up]

24. If rational people were in charge of our foreign policy, I'd agree.

However, I'm not sure they are either rational or sane--or that they ultimately give a shit about what happens to the United Staes or its economy.

[oblivious]

56. Yes, rational thought is a big assumption in this discussion.

In Washington it is hardly a secret that the same people in and around the administration who brought you Iraq are preparing to do the same for Iran. The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President Dick Cheney’s office, has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons. Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites. Many of the targets are hardened or are deep underground and could not be taken out by conventional weapons, hence the nuclear option. As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States. Several senior Air Force officers involved in the planning are reportedly appalled at the implications of what they are doing—that Iran is being set up for an unprovoked nuclear attack—but no one is prepared to damage his career by posing any objections.
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html

[Beam Me Up]

60. And anyone who thinks this new war is going to be "over there" is equally

crazy. What we saw in New Orleans as a result of a (we assume) natural disaster is nothing compared to what we'll see if there is an attack against one of our cities. And this administration has told us there WILL be (not if but when). The citizens of the United States are in a dream world, still believing it 'can't happen here.' It can and it will so long as these people are in charge of our 'national security'.

Thank you for your link.

[EuroObserver]

75. Condi was in charge of your national security

on and prior to 9/11.

[bpilgrim]

26. reminds me of iraq prior to that invasion

with the PNAC fucking crazies at the helm anything is possible.

peace

[emulatorloo]

29. kick and nominating n/t

[billbuckhead]

35. I think they will attack Iran even with the terrible consqences

This would give them a chance to impose the martial law they love so much.

I hope I'm wrong but nothing scares these thugs, they make money one way or another and have no respect for human life. Everything for them is based on what they can get away with and they think they can get away with anything. A war with Iran would start some sort of world war and this is what I think they really want, an opportunity to drag America kicking and screaming into a real war.

[gulfcoastliberal]

32. K&R

I doubt we'll do something leading to a total petro-economic emargo. We'll face total economic collapse.

[IndyOp]

33. Soldiers/Allies briefed on Iran attack--Israel, AIPAC ready to attack Iran

My son says get ready to invade Iran: I spoke with my son just now(he's in Germany),and he said that they are briefing some of his friends about Iran.
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5686585#5686598>

Speculations over US attack against Iran
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5686585#5686637>
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5686585#5687168>

AIPAC has just sent a letter to Bush on the Iranian issue...
They believe he is not being agressive enough. <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5686585#5686796>

Israel is planning to bomb Iran's nuke facilities:
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5689976#5690057>

[specimenfred1984]

34. Here's a Theory

A "terrorist" attack happens to the U.S., U.S. forces and/or Israel, and the attack is blamed on Syria and Iran by the propagandized media and the U.S. attacks Syria while Israel attacks Iran.

The world powers like China and Russia stand down because of the worldwide horror of the attacks like 9/11. Russia and China plan to move into Iran when the dust settles and loot whatever they want in combination with the U.S. looting. The U.S. dedicates our entire military forces to protect Israel so they remain protected.

As long as human life is completely ignored in this theory, it's feasible. U.S. loss of life will be accepted as a necessary price for retaliation and future safety by a majority of U.S. citizens.

Also in this theory is that it must happen before the Nov. 2006 elections because if the dems get control of a branch of gov't, the powers that are trying to pull this crap off may be impeached and imprisoned or at least counter-balanced enough to stop it.

[randomelement]

45. Bingo! n/t

[Beam Me Up]

55. My worst fear, too. n/t

[EuroObserver]

76. Jesus Christ

... and/or the Galactic extraterrestrial civilization ... help us out here, please?

[Beam Me Up]

85. I contacted them a couple years ago.

Opened the Intergalactic Hyperdimension and, after being propelled through the fractalized trans-dimensional wormhole, asked the Tykes: Hey, do you guys know what's going down on planet Earth? The disconcertingly nonchalant telepathic answer was, "Oh, yeah, we know."

It kind of put things in perspective, I guess. :shrug:

Edit: html

[Telly Savalas]

101. Here's another theory.

1 in 6 children in the United States are living in poverty and nobody is going to do shit about it because the Right doesn't care and the Left is too busy concocting improbable worst case scenarios for events on the other side of the globe.

[YourBrother]

36. it's a good point, but

your obviously looking at this from the perspective of a civilised, intelligent and rational human being

can you inform me when US foreign policy has followed any of these character traits in the past 50 years say?

now imagine for a second your someone who does not give a toss about any of that, is quite looking forward to starting world war 3 and has a vested interest in doing so, being the head of most major rackets profiting everytime a shot is fired, or something is blown up OR needs rebuilding and anyway, they've built the bunkers so you might aswell use them right?:D

now then, from that perspective ...

world war 3 sounds like a nice little earner doesn't it :D

if you dont bomb iran, israel is going to, are you going to stop israel?

ARE YOU BALLS!
:rofl:

[mtnsnake]

37. Well, we gotta find SOMEONE to attack. How about Cuba?

Okay, so we don't need sugar. Mexico then? hmm, too many Catholics there.

I got it. Iceland! Surely we could take them. And besides, Bush could become a folk hero if he brings Bobby Fischer to justice!

Anyway, thanks for the post, Will. It is reassuring, although the only worry that I have is that Bush is too stupid to foresee that an attack on Iran could lead to WWIII. Then again, no one can be that stupid, can they?

[YourBrother]

113. stupid?

everything they have done since being given the stick has led to greater corruption, poverty, misery, lies and death

what makes you think they dont WANT world war 3?

they make money everytime a shots fired, or something needs rebuilding

gotta look at it from their point of view, it's a dream scenario

then bush gets to turn around and say "look the world hates america, let's nuke the fookers" which isn't true, we hate what is being committed in your name, and so do you by the sounds of things

so lets stop it, the only thing they respect is money and violence, i am at present not prepared to stoop as low as them, so let's make them poor

stop shopping at walmart, stop buying their papers etc etc

if your ignorant to their revenue streams you cannot help but support them through funding

all the best

[Hapameli]

39. War is over, if you want it, war is over NOW!!!

Thanks so much, Will... add this story into the mix and note the date:

Analysis: U.S. Preparing for Iraq Exit

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer Sun Dec 25, 5:19 PM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051225/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_getting_out;_ylt=A9FJqamyhK9DcPMAoQqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-



Happy Christmas! War is Over!

So this is Christmas
And what have you done
Another year over
And a new one just begun
And so this is Christmas
I hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young

A very Merry Christmas
And a happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear

And so this is Christmas
For weak and for strong
For rich and the poor ones
The world is so wrong
And so happy Christmas
For black and for white
For yellow and red ones
Let's stop all the fight

And so this is Christmas
And what have we done
Another year over
A new one just begun
And so happy Christmas
We hope you have fun
The near and the dear one
The old and the young

War is over, if you want it
War is over now

Happy Christmas

From John and Yoko

[newspeak]

42. thank you for the lyrics

I was humming that song on our way to relatives for Christmas. Best Christmas song, ever!!!!

[Kralizec]

43. Wow. It feels sorta nice when I agree with this Will Pitt fellow! (nt)

[understandinglife]

44. What China wants is the oil. They don't care who sells it to them. The ...

... neoconsters plan to be selling it to them, sometime soon. Just as they have been selling Iraqi oil since shortly after March 19, 2003. And, the Chinese have zero interest in even a tiny bit of expansion of Islamic fundamentalism, anywhere, and we know how they feel about the Uighurs activities in Xinjiang.

I doubt the neoconsters have any intention of ever leaving their strategic bases in Iraq (which they have been robustly operating their air-war over Iraq and the Syrian border), relinquishing their current control of the Euphrates-Tigris water basin, and their control of the sale of Iraqi oil. It's merely a matter of when they make those intentions so explicit as to eliminate any possible confusion.

China might make some noise, but if the flow of oil and natural gas was un-impeded and the bulk of support for Islamic fundamentalist was vaporized, I think they'd just keep building their economy. They're interested in stable global markets, not religion. Let's face it, how many political organizations have eliminated tens of millions of their own citizens, and didn't shed a tear.

For China, the neoconsters are ideal business partners, because the Chinese know the neoconsters have zero tolerance for anything disrupting cash flow, and the Chinese can tell the US State Department to, once and for all time, STFU about "human rights."

Just a thought.

Happy New Year, Will, and thanks for your provocative and outstanding writing.

Peace,
Bob

[me b zola]

65. Brilliant and frightening analysis that I agree with

I was reading your post to my Mr. Zola, and his response was, "Maybe WWIII has already begun." His theory, that I also agree, with is that WWIII has (largely) nothing to do with nations or boarders. It is the global economic war which is waged on the working people of the world. Total global domination of the multi-national corporations. Any nations that fall in this war are similar to a hostile corporate take-over.

Perhaps the reason that China has signed now with Iran is BECAUSE they know that the US is definetly going to take over. China & the US are all about business & the bottom line, Iran--not so much.

[understandinglife]

83. "China & the US are all about business & the bottom line, Iran--not so ...

... much."

In_deed.

"WWW III" is effective economic globalization.

Bush and the neoconsters can deal with a few whack-job theocratic dominionists when ever they decide to obsolete them.

But, what the Carlyle Group, a variety of multi-national corporations, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, and Japan can not tolerate are millions of zealot Islamists - and they won't.

It's merely a matter of constructing both a magnet (increase the density, thereby limiting the amount of real estate one needs to attack) and an excuse. The "magnet" is well under construction, and an Iranian President doing the "Holocaust denial, move Israel to Germany or Austria" ditty is getting really, really close to the excuse. I anticipate some serious glass production in the near future.

And, the symbiotic financial relationship between China and America is not something anyone in the central Chinese government is going to disrupt. Sure, they'll do deals with Chavez and Iran and ..., but those are business deals, not ideological alignments.


Peace.

[me b zola]

87. "...glass production in the near future"

I believe that will happen as well. Mr. Zola, though, disagrees with us, he believes that they will use conventional weapons on the Iranian infrastructure. I hope that neither scenerio takes place.



Peace to you, UL.

[gristy]

48. The US may attack China for the very reasons you say they will not:

if one of the neocons' goals is to destroy our country. I have seen lots of evidence that it is.

[bigtree]

49. When we invaded Iraq we voided all existing oil contracts

China was owed billions by Iraq. We voided that debt. That did a great deal to cause China to look elesewhere for oil. Their demand is growing like crazy.

And they've got missile deals that China expects will make Iran even more receptive to selling their oil to them at reasonable prices. Hell, they even have a deal where Iran will sell them cars. http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0504240240112602.htm

And, don't forget India and Iran want to build a pipeline (Peace Pipeline). http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=39126&NewsKind=CurrentAffairs
http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?ArchiveNews=Yes&NewsCode=39122&NewsKind=CurrentAffairs

Pakistan and China already have a strategic relationship with uranium transfers and missle sales . . . and there's Russia fueling the fire with their own transfers of military tech.



But, there were also economic and strategic alliances and obstacles that should have prevented us from interfering in Iraq. Iraq has the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world, I think. Russia initially pushed off China to support our invasion, perhaps looking to capitalize on the oil there. But this is a complicated dance that will not occur without China's hesitation to directly confront our own military predominance. It's not clear yet, but I think the EU would be more cohesive and compliant to any military or economic action against Iran than they were against Iraq.

here's a 2004 article that offers a slight rebuttal of your premise, with regard to action in the U.N.-http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2004/november/china_iran_61104.shtml


CHINA REFUSES TO HELP IRAN AT THE UNITED NATIONS

Saturday, November 6, 2004

{snips}

“If the Iranians think that China would take their side against that of the United States at the UN, they are wrong, no matter that Tehran and Peking have signed a colossal natural gas deal worth 100 billions of US Dollars”, Professor Hermidas Bavand who teaches political sciences a Tehran University told the Persian service of Radio France International, adding that among the five nations that have the right of veto in the Security Council, China is the one that has used this power the least”.

“It is not in the Chinese policy to use veto at the Security Council unless there is something that affects directly its own interests, like the case of Taiwan and Li’s explanations about the limit, prerogatives or ground for using veto means very politely that Tehran should not count much on Peking for engaging Washington at the Security Council’, he added.

This view was confirmed by the Head of the Supreme National Security Council’s Foreign Policy Committee Hoseyn Moussavian in an interview with the hard line daily “Kayhan”, a mouthpiece of Mr. Khameneh’i.

"We would be mistaken if we thought China would ever stand up to the Americans and engage in an embroilment over Iran’s nuclear activities", Moussavian told the daily, quoting an unnamed Chinese diplomat as having told him once that the volume of our trade transactions with the Americans is “thousand times more than that with Iran”.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. That's assuming that the NeoCons are sane, isn't it?

[Angry Girl]

52. My very same thought... *sigh*

Merry Christmas to us all and Good Will toward all mankind

[Deja Q]

70. The human condition in of itself makes predictions impossible.

No matter how much I vent or conjecture with hyperbole, I always keep an open mind. I think the lay term is known as "flip-flopping". :7

[many a good man]

57. Your flaw and the REAL reason we won't bomb Iran

Control over the worldwide marketing and distribution of oil has been at the center of American geopolitical strategy for at least the past 70 years. This control gives us leverage over the industrialization and development of other nations.

We would not overlook the Iran-China deals unless it was on purpose.

I believe the right wing in America has made a secret alliance with the right wing in Iran (and other countries).

The escalation of tensions is a boon politically for the hardliners in the US, Iran, Israel, Russia, and the Arab dictatorships. It puts them all on a war footing and provides a great excuse to crack down on dissenters. It rallies moderates to their side. Why would they give up such a good thing?

Why else do you think America has allowed SCIRI to take control over the Iraqi military? Why is the terrorist group Dawa given political legitimacy and allowed to organize death squads directed at the "US-backed" secular moderates? Peace and security would lead to calls for US disengagment from Iraq.

I can't pretend to know the details of the back room deals being drawn, but its obvious China's rapid industrialization is endorsed by the US govt. Furthermore, if oil exists its always going to be extracted and marketed no matter who controls it. I can't shake the feeling that if we allow the Iranian oil bourse to proceed that means an epochal transition in the global order is quietly under way.

[Peace Patriot]

58. I tend to agree with Woodsprite--but not for the same reason.

Will, you lay out a rational, sensible case for an administration that wants to act in the interests of the people of the United States. There was also such a case--and a very strong one--not to invade Iraq. Invading Iraq (besides being morally abhorrent and illegal) has stoked the jihadists, empowered the mullahs and bankrupted the U.S., not to mention alienating the world. It is just about the worst thing they could have done as to our national security. And the upshot of it is that the Bush Cartel now has oil contracts in THEIR interest with the Kurds and Shias, who will now be permitted to destroy the Sunnis (who previously controlled the oil in the interests of Iraqi SECULAR government) out of view of the American public.

And, after having set this all up, in THEIR interest, the Bush Cartel now MUST act to prevent the Iraqi Shias from joining forces with the Iranian Shias. And Iran's oil contract with China is very likely one of the reasons they have to do this. The Bush Cartel wants to control the Iranian end of that contract.

And how did the Bush junta get into this terrible position of China holding our debt? They did by creating the debt--by, a) invading and occupying Iraq--at enormous cost; and b) multiple tax cuts for the rich and extensive corporate welfare.

But I don't think that the Bush junta is insane. I think it is acting in the interests of the Bush cartel--oil companies and other global corporate predators and war profiteers--and to some extent in the (wrongly construed) interests of Israel. The Bush Cartel may in fact wish to invade Iran for the very reason that China owns us--that is, controlling Iran's oil will give them leverage in China, the new economic powerhouse of the world, which has no tradition of democracy. But I don't for a minute believe that they would be invading (or bombing) Iran in OUR interests. Most likely they want to corner as much of the earth's last oil reserves as possible in order to gouge China and its citizens with unfair prices.

I don't believe the "chaos theory" of the Bush junta--that they are crazy and incompetent. I think their prime motive is greed. I think they are plenty competent (if that's the word) as robber barons, looters and pillagers (Rumsfeld: freedom = the freedom to loot), for whom chaos and incompetence (which they deliberately and strategically create) are opportunities for thievery. If Katrina taught us nothing else, it taught us this. Who got the first no-bid, no performance standards, profit guaranteed contract in the Gulf Coast? Halliburton. And who profited most from the disaster, besides Halliburton?--the oil companies, in an orgy of price gouging against Americans.

The Bush Cartel obviously DOESN'T CARE about, a) US solvency; b) US manufacturing capability (except for the oil/gas infrastructure); c) US national security, and d) the health and welfare of US citizens. They are acting in the short term interests of pure greed, and the long term geo-political interests of giant multinationals that have no loyalty to the US whatsoever, and who despise democracy, and want to break our will as a progressive, generous, peace and justice loving people. They are deliberately and methodically corrupting and destroying every institution that makes us strong as a people: our election system, our educational system, local community infrastructure (fire, rescue, police, hospitals, road repair, National Guard, etc.), our regulatory capability, our commitment to lawful government, our military's commitment to codes of ethics (such as the Uniform Code of Military Justice), and much else.

What would be in our best interests right now--instead of invading Iran--would be a total national commitment to complete conversion to alternative fuels within, say, ten years. Stirring up the hornet's nest of jihad and lighting matches to the Middle East tinderbox are not in our interests--for oil or anything else (and could destroy the entire planet). It would be in our interest to STOP the outsourcing jobs and entire industries, and the flood of raw materials, to China and Asia. We need those jobs and industries and raw materials HERE--and we need one of those resources, forests, in the ground, to help fend off global warming. So, it seems to me clear beyond any reasonable doubt that our value as the "Golden Goose" of consumers, as hard and loyal and skilled workers, and as a highly educated, inventive, and creative people are no longer of any consequence to our Corporate Rulers. They are looting and trashing everything that makes us a strong, cohesive society--including, very importantly, our commitment to international law and our ability to require that our leaders support and obey it, and they are using our military capability as a brutal wedge to extend THEIR interest and control into places where international law and order forbid them to go.

And when they invade (or bomb or nuke) Iran, despite all the RATIONAL arguments against it, it will be of no consequence to THEM if China calls in our debt as a result. They will profit from it, you can be sure. They likely have huge investments there already. China and other Asian countries will become the new "cash cow." And THAT is the point at which all these Nazi 'laws' and precedents they are putting into place here will be activated--when we are crushed. They will then proceed to squeeze every last penny and drop of blood out of us, as slave labor and cannon fodder, as a final insult--for we will be of no importance to these mega-corporations at that point, except as trouble-makers.

I hope you're right, Will--for the sake of the thousands of innocent Iranians who will be slaughtered by the Bush junta, in any invasion or bombardment. It's possible that China and Iran have outmaneuvered them. My predictions tend toward the Dark Side, because I see OUR helplessness, as America's people, in the face of the Bush junta. Our say in these matters was taken away when our Corporate Rulers installed the electronic voting machines. But maybe that view (our point of view, as US citizens) is myopic, and it's certainly possible that I don't really understand the economics of this situation--for instance, the ability of China to cripple the Bush junta, financially, without significant harm to itself.

However, the Bush junta is following the near identical PR plan they used to invade Iraq. Demonizing Iran--constantly. Saber-rattling. Maneuvering in the U.N. to condemn Iran for wanting to defend itself (by getting nukes). Talking of "regime change." Talking now of "withdrawing" forces from Iraq (to be stationed where? to be used where?). Pushing, pushing. Killing Syrian soldiers and bombing Syria/Iraq border villages (throughout Katrina, and on-going). Syria may be first, because it's so weak. Then Iran will stand alone as the only non-US backed, non-sheikdom in the Middle East. It's hard to see the point of all this, if it's not a plan to invade or bomb Iran, and get control of its oil.

It's interesting that China and Venezuela are forming an alliance. China holds our debt. Venezuela supplies 15% of our oil. Either one could deal us a devastating blow if they wanted to. That's what I mean by our (my) myopia. We--US citizens--are not the only ones in the world who want to curtail this junta.

[kywildcat]

74. Exactly, we are collateral-expendable

It is hard to believe anything else. It is myopic view we hold to believe that mass causality estimates and population shifts are not accounted for in long term financial planning.
I do believe Bushes last trip to china was indeed to work out the details of acceptable gains and losses (Iran oil and the security of having North Korea buffer china from direct western influence on its border)
Hatred and anger while fueling discovery also blinds us to the epiphany that we are nothing more than chattel.

[gristy]

79. Peace Patriot, you are one wonderful writer

Your post here is just excellent.

[BeHereNow]

102. BEST POST EVER.

America is about to be known by a new name.
"Katrinica."
You are spot on Peace Patriot.
You are correct, we are no longer the "golden goose of consumers."
The Chinese are, which is why western banks and their
credit card operations are now setting up in China.
The Chinese are the new credit customers/consumers.
Thank you for your post.
BHN

[BigBearJohn]

63. Excellent post! Magoo! You've done it again!!! K/R

[H2O Man]

64. Russia had signed agreements

with Iraq shortly before we invaded. I recognize that is not the exact same thing, but the similarities are worth noting. I think there is about a 10% chance that there could be strikes on Iranian facilities. Certainly there is a benefit to increasing stability -- including through the use of the UN etc -- but there is still a small yet very real potential for things to move out of control very fast. Human beings rarely control violence; rather, violence tends to be a force that controls people.

[rainbow4321]

98. India/China/Syria: "India, China pin down $573m Syria deal"

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/GL22Cb06.html

India and China, the most aggressive shoppers for oil and gas assets in the world, and normally archrivals in the race for overseas oilfields, have finally come together to pursue their energy security in the global arena.

China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) and India's Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC), the two largest oil companies in the respective countries, announced on December 20 that they had jointly won a bid to acquire 37% of Petro-Canada's stake in Syrian oilfields for US$573 million. ONGC and CNPC, both state-owned, will have equal stakes in the al-Furat oil and gas fields.


In addition, in the past 12 months, Chinese oil companies have been consistently outmaneuvering India in just about every oil property the two countries chased. In their bid for oil security, the two countries, allege oil industry analysts, have also contributed immensely to the record high oil prices this year.


<snip>

But this cooperation could be bad news for Western oil companies. Analysts said that if the two countries teamed up on a regular basis, it should worry Western oil majors. "The Indian and Chinese companies are willing to pay a higher premium for assets. The pressure is certainly on the majors," said Praveen Martis, an analyst at consultancy Wood Mackenzie, in a Reuters report.

[H2O Man]

106. Interesting. Very interesting.

That needs to be considered in the context of PNAC.

[rman]

111. afaik Syria is past production peak

Sharp decrease in Syria's oil exports expected
Syria, Economics, 11/17/2004
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/041117/2004111709.html


http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/eastmed.html
Syria
Syria's oil industry faces many challenges in the years to come. Oil output and production continues to decline due to technological problems and depletion of oil reserves. Since peaking at 590,000 bbl/d in 1996, Syria's oil output has fallen, to an estimated 460,000 bbl/d in 2004, as older fields, especially the large Jebisseh field discovered in 1968, have reached maturity. Syrian oil production is expected to continue its decline over the next several years, while consumption rises, leading to a reduction in Syrian net oil exports. If this trend continues, it is possible that Syria could become a net oil importer within a decade. Export levels, which had been temporarily buoyed by illegal imports from Iraq, fell sharply after the invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

[Protagoras]

66. I'd even suspect the timing of this deal

was meant to head off an attack. China is playing for the long term energy/industry win. They let us get ramped up...then they step in with this kinda shot over the bow.

I believe we would attack Iran if we could get away with it. I believe Iran and China know this. I believe they just moved to check-mate us on this.

And I think you are right. Bush isn't ready to take on China. But he desperately wants to hit someone...syria perhaps? He's gotta maintain that whole "war president" thingymabobber.

[Deja Q]

69. what did * say about countries who help terrorists? Oh, it gets better:

China is now in the same boat as Iran. Bush said it, not me. China is helping the terrorists; Iran has a long history of this sort of thing. At least back to 1984 when the US finally labelled Iran as such (so much for rescuing all those hostages... looks like they weren't victims of terrorism. :eyes: )

So, how will * deal with corporate executives? Especially with all the jobs, equipment, and information being given TO China...

It's quite a pickle, wouldn't you say?

And until our economy collapses, the corporate elite will want to move themselves over TO China or where-ever they think they will have the greatest chance in surviving. In business, things like loyalty to your home country mean nothing. (that's their mindset, not mine.)

The name of the game is 'king of the hill'. And they're not going to nuke the hill. The situation is way too complex (or convoluted?) to be so simple in its resolution.

[Beam Me Up]

86. "they're not going to nuke the hill"

Famous. Last. Words.

[YourBrother]

119. yeah

except the USA has been the biggest sponsor of terrorism around the globe itself

so nowadays, a terrorist is someone who wants to stop them terrorizing

funny old world eh ? :D

[libhill]

78. I don't think

that that would have happened anyway - we can't bomb our own warehouse, too many goods are imported from China today.

[Junkdrawer]

80. Well, Yes and No...

Yes:
I've noted for a long time that China and Iran are partners and that China would not sit idly by while the US grabs all the oil in the region.

No:
As others have pointed out in earlier threads, China owning our bonds is China's problem. If they threaten action, we refuse to pay and they're screwed.

My speculation is that Bush was in China last month to address just this problem. Perhaps a deal was struck? :shrug:

[oblivious]

84. Iran poised to become world's largest RPG-7 maker.

Iran's RPG Surprise
Posted 23-Dec-2005
Iran's Defense Industries Organization (DIO) will be the most significant player involved in RPG-7 production during the forecast period. Iranian licensed production of the RPG-7 will account for 4.25 percent of all new man-portable anti-armor and bunker buster weapons production, worth 2.88 percent of the total market value, through 2014."

That translates into a production total of over 80,000 weapons.

That's this weapon - takes out helicopters and tanks:
http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/rpg.htm

1998 report on the history of the RPG-7: The RPG-7 On the Battlefields of Today and Tomorrow
by Mr. Lester W. Grau, Foreign Military Studies Office, Fort Leavenworth, KS
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1998/infantry-rpg.htm

[tavalon]

88. And if a saner administration was presiding

I would believe that they would understand that as well as we here do. I'm certainly not at the chicken little stage yet, but I'm concerned because these idiots only talk to their own echo chamber yes men. It's the only administration I could ever imagine doing something this stupid and being totally unaware of the consequences.

[butterfly77]

89. And all the while this dumbass is ..

hopping and skipping onto airforce one and helicopters,smiling and laughing like he's taking care of business. I bet his dumbass dosen't even realize how messed up this country is.

Then he sits at the table to sign a bill with repugs and dems standing around him (depending on the bill) and most of the time the bill is about some simple shit that is none of his business in the first place.

I talk to people trying to get them to see what is going on ,some I scare the shit out of, maybe they will start looking at the news and reading. This dumbass skips around playing president I guess he dosen't care because he and cheney and the rest of the crew have their bunkers prepared and ready.

[redacted]

91. But Will, why do you think there's such a parade of U.S. officials

meeting with the Turkish government? Heads of the CIA, FBI, and also of NATO have passed through Ankara just within the past couple of weeks. What does the U.S. and NATO want from Turkey if we aren't going to strike against Iran?

[RazzleDazzle]

92. Well, that would be just dandy

if we were dealing with sane people in this administration; we are not.

And if it's not enough that they are too arrogant to think losing is a possibility, or even to acknowledge or admit having lost once the reality is inevitable and can no longer be denied, they also fantasize in favor of Armageddon, remember?

Hope you didn't pay too much for those rose-colored glasses.

[pitohui]

95. we were never gonna bomb iran

that was just tough talk to fool the stupid people

we went to war, v. deliberately, w. iran's great enemy to empower iran and to throw off the balance of power in the middle east

iran did not put reagan/bush in office in 1980 to get bombed in 2006, the bushes know who put them where they are today, and they have always repaid loyalty

all the sword-shaking was a game, and all knew it, except the naive

[mmonk]

99. Will, you're thinking rationally.

Have you ever thought about thinking like a neocon?

[LibertyorDeath]

100. It's possible that China & Russia have come to an equitable agreement

with the neocons with regard to Iran & the
rest of the remaining Oil in the ME.

Not probable but possible.

[dutchdemocrat]

103. Another important reason - rarely mentioned is geographic

Don't forget that Iran has a nuisance capacity which is far greater than its real military power, even without the bomb.

By its position in the Hormuz strait, Iran can disrupt tanker transportation in the Arabic Gulf, and even, with a small effort, the transport of goods from Asia to Europe and the Americas East-Coast through the Red Sea. This trade route is the most important for the world economy.

Simply sending fast ships to attack container vessels, bulkers and tankers in the area would be enough to increase by 1 or 2 factors the price of all goods and energy we use. They would not need to actually destroy one: hassling boats would automatically increase the price of insurance.

This is also a significant deterrent.

[NewJeffCT]

105. I think you're right - our economies are too inter-dependent

If the US economy collapses, China loses by far the largest market for all those Chinese-made goods. While the old adage of "if the US sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold" may no longer be true, it is probably now more like, "if the US gets a cold, so does everybody else."

While China's economy is growing rapidly, they still have a lot of economic problems: their banking system is reminiscent of the US in the 1920s with many banks saddled with huge debt; their infrastructure & power grid needs serious upgrading, probably even more than the US infrastrucure; they have a large problem with unemployment & potential unrest because of it; they have serious environmental problems; and there is Taiwan, which has the potential to be like a Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan to China.

[clixtox]

107. It is said...

that the more you owe the bank, the more you own it. The more of our national and private debt that is held outside the USA the more it actually gives us more power over them, our "banks". ie: China, Japan, European countries, whoever.
The real "bottom line" is "Might makes Right..."
We are the meanest, nastiest, most dishonest, hypocritical and embarrassing country from any time or place. There I said it!
There seems to be no limit to our greedy, evil ways lately.
So very sad for us and the world.
Happy Holidaze

[NewJeffCT]

108. Check out how much debt China & Japan have

As a percentage of GDP, Japan's debt is much greater than the US'... I found that out not too long ago to my surprise.

[ComerPerro]

109. So, you're saying that Bush won't attack Iran, because he doesn't

want to start a war with China, one that would be long, drawn out, messy, and cost a lot of lives?


Why would he care?

I think a losing war is even better for Republicans than one they can actually win. That way, it ensures that people rally behind him, because "you gotta support the President during wartime"...

[Walt Starr]

115. If the Busheviks cut a backroom deal with China to provide Iranian oil

Then China won't give a shit.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

116. Gee....some people stated that Herr Busch wouldn't attack Iraq.....

...because of a major deal with Russia.

Oops.

FYI: The NeoCons operate from an agenda that's NOT based on common sense. How many times do they have to prove that before we know that it's true?

[Javaman]

120. Click the WWII replay button...

Why did Japan attack us?

Months before Pearl Harbor, the U.S. demanded the Japanese to withdraw from Northern China. Japan refused. We cut off steel and OIL from them. tick tick tick...Japan was in desperate need of OIL. So they struck back. The long term plan was: if all went successful, they would have invaded Hawaii and taken the oil reserves on the main island, but because of the defense of Wake Island by the marines and civilian employees there, it delayed their invasion, thus allowing the U.S. more time to quickly rebuild and outfit their navy.

Soooooooooo, boys and girls, frankly, I don't think it will be us dropping bombs on Iran, it will be Israel. I don't know if we have a mutual aid agreement with Israel but I wouldn't doubt it. Whatever the case, we will get involved somehow.

Stopping or slowing the oil flowing into China would be very interesting indeed to watch.

Strap yourself in, I have a feeling that the next two years will make the last 5 look like the "good old days".

:popcorn:

[stellanoir]

121. "We will not bomb Iran"

. . .from your keyboard to Cheney's speaker phone.

[agincourt]

123. They'd have to call up "Tim"

to plant a dirty bomb, or have a lot of back-pack boys in our subways to get it to fly. They also have to get the public to swallow that Iran was behind it. The Tammany-taliborg would be rolling the dice on this one. Hard to say, I have some doubt now that they'll bomb Iran, but these guys are pretty arrogant on what they think they can get away with.

[ddeclue]

125. Bush will not attack Iran (or Syria or N. Korea..)

1) No political support at home for it. It would guarantee immediate impeachment.
2) Gas prices would hit $5.00/gallon because Iran has enough military power to prevent access to the Gulf and we would piss off the rest of the middle east that isn't already pissed at us.
3) No troops available to fight such a war.
4) It would piss off China who would supply Iran with money, arms, and training (if not actual soldiers).
5) It would piss off China who provides a huge chunk of manufacturing capacity to the United States and who loans it huge amounts of money.
6) It would also piss off Russia who is busy selling it nuclear reactors and weapons systems.
7) No believable pretense exists and Bush has used up all his "trust me" cards with the American people.
8) We are already busy losing one war in Iraq and another in Afghanistan. A third war would be a really bad idea.

Doug D.