RW'ers say the US was founded as a Christian Nation...

[ck4829]

I'm not sure that the Founding Fathers wanted that.

BUT, I am sure that the Founding Fathers of the United States of America never wanted this nation to trade in it's freedom for the illusion of extra security.

Let's remember this as we fight for the truth.

[datasuspect]

1. america was founded in the spirit of the french enlightenment

and that means DEISM, not christianity. in some cases, the founders were ANTI-CHRISTIAN!!!!

[FreedomAngel82]

21. And also bring up

how Christmas wasn't celebrated until the 1840's. Before than it was not any sort of holiday because it was seen as a pagan holiday (which it is).

[greyl]

2. America is two continents.

'Can't forget that either. ;)

[Bluzmann57]

3. Ask them to point out where in the constitution

it says anything about the USA being a Christian nation. The easy answer? It says it...nowhere. Separation of church and state is mentioned prominently though. It does not say anything about abolition of religion, just that religion and Government should be kept separate.

[FreedomAngel82]

22. God isn't mentioned anywhere in the Constiution

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. One of my favorite quotes. Which is very applicable today.

"Those who would trade their freedom for security, deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin

[shenmue]

5. Oh the heck it was

The Bill of Rights specifically forbids establishment of religion.

The Founding Fathers were trying to get away from the policy of official religions that had caused so much pain in the days when we were colonies, as well as earlier throughout history.

If they wanted state religion, why did they bother to break away from England at all?

It's such b.s. The First Amendment refutes them right off the bat. It takes away the official religion status that the colonies had established.

The RWers couldn't be more backwards if they spun in a half-circle.

:mad:

[FreedomAngel82]

23. And bring up this goodie

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion."~ John Adams

Thomas Paine was also against religion. He wouldn't have allowed it I'm very sure from reading about him.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

6. When it comes to RWer's assertion that American was

founded as a Christian nation. They are simply lying.

[MadHound]

7. Next time some RWer feeds you that line of BS, hit them with this

1797 The Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

This passage was passed unanimously by the Senate, and signed into law by John Adams. Though it isn't clear, most historians believe that the treaty was written either by Adams, or even Washington himself.

It has been clear from the inception of this country, we are a secular nation, not a religious one. Everybody is free to practice whatever religion they wish so long as it doesn't intrude on other citizens, and that the church is to be kept seperate from the state. Anything else is simply RW revisionist history trying to justify their lust to turn America into a theocracy.

[BrotherBuzz]

24. futhermore, article six of the constitution validates treaties

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

[Lochloosa]

8. America was founded by Religious FANATICS

fleeing the persecution of their government and church. That is the reason for the FIRST amendment. They were deathly afraid of the church and state becoming one.

[LynneSin]

9. We were founded because we didn't want to be persecuted for our beliefs

In England you either supported the religion of the month (floated between Catholicism and the Church of England) or you were burned at the stake as a heretic.

People came to America because they wanted the freedom to practice the religion of their choice without persecution from the government.

That is what we were founded on and yet even now we persecute. Maybe there isn't any 'stake-burning' but there is emotional abuse going on if you do not support the religion of choice.

Sad isn't it!

[FlaGranny]

10. I think they are confusing the

"founding fathers" with the Puritans and Pilgrims, but in the span of 150 years the Pilgrims EVOLVED (maybe even by intelligent design - their own) into much more reasonable folks. Those Puritans banned any celebration of Christmas. I wonder if the RWers know that.

Interestingly, I've been doing a lot of research on the subject working my my genealogy. I've found that my ancestors on my mother's side almost all were Pilgrims of the early 1600s. Even discovered I have some of the same ancestors as the Bush family - ARRRGGGHHHH! - even Nixon and Ford. It helps, though, that I also have some of the same ancestors as Churchill and FDR.

As a side note, are you guys aware that Dan Quayle is descended from Myles Standish and John Alden? The things you learn!

[David__77]

11. Yes, and there goes the "emerging realignment of Jewish people."

Jews are recognizing that the right will try to Christianize them. "Jews for Jesus" are their model Jews. Those who refuse to worship their god are evil in their eyes. They want Christianity to dominate the public realm.

[long_green]

12. Yesterday, someone put up a link from a Fundie site

that called Christianity "America's founding religion." There is no talking to people who have the capacity to invent history like that.

[MrDale]

13. neosons also...

insist that there is nothing about seperation of church and state in the constitution too.

[datasuspect]

14. they also think the holocaust didn't happen

historical revisionism is nothing new to them. or at least their masters. the rank and file of the lunatic mainstream of the republican party is woefully ignorant of history at best and functionally illiterate at worst. and i'm being charitable here.

[Strong Atheist]

15. Most of the founders

seemed conflicted over religion. Many were Masons, and practiced religion themselves, but were leery of a "state" religion. I think that is the balance we are always trying to strike, so far reasonably successfully, I think.

[MrDale]

16. here's a neo-con response

i posted this on my message board to get a rise out of the neocon response and this is what came back...


haha, what a joke, a misinformed atheist and a pseudo-christian, bringing up that tired old treat of tripoli ploy again....

in a nutshell, the one whole statement you bank your argument on is suspect to begin with as you are taking it so far out of context, the statement was made to assure the radically muslim nation of tripoli, that we, the u.s. wouldnt depose the muslim government and FORCE a christian rule of government over them.

article 6 of the treaty continuously shows the differnces between christian nations, and muslim pirate nations like tripoli...

in the book Jefferson\'s War by joseph wheelan, it shows that jefferson was actually in the first war against the terrorist muslims:

\"jefferson\'s war pitted a modern republic (note, no democracy listed here kenny) with a free trade entrepeneurial against a midevil autocracy whose credo was piracy and terror (not unlike today) it matched an OBSTENSIVELY CHRISTIAN NATION against an avowed islamist one, that professed to despise christians\"

also in the same book:

\"except for its native american population and a small percentage of jews, the UNITED STATES WAS SOLIDLY CHRISTIAN...\"

an reasonable survey of the state constitutions, national pronouncements and official declarations of the thirteen states would show the muslim inhabitants of tripoli of the overwhelming christian founding of this nation.

the treaty was drafted to ensure the government of the muslim nation that we had no intention of imposing christianity on them, that is all that the infamous statement is about, not about the true christian bed rock of the u.s. government...

next up , why dont you goofballs dig out your copy of the elders of zion and start lying about that too.....

[Strong Atheist]

35. Actually, there were many

different religions being practiced, including the Quaker beliefs. Jefferson himself was hard to pin down on his beliefs. This wingnut comes off as a bit incoherent ...

[MrMonk]

38. Here's the entire quote

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The statement about the foundation of the government would be superfluous if it's only intent was to assure the rulers of Tripoli that the treaty would not be broken on the basis of religion.

Also note that the nation may very well have been considered christian due to almost the entire population being manifestly christian, such a condition would not control the nature of the government formed under the Constitution. The nature of the government is secular. There is no reference in the Constitution to the government having a godly foundation. The men of that age knew how to state their propositions clearly. No where in the Constitution or, as far as I know, in the deliberations that led to the ratification of the Constitution, was there a stated intent to found the government on christian principles.

[Tsiyu]

39. Wheelan?

Talk about your revisionist history!

You'll need a better source than Wheelan to sell your argument here.

[rpgamerd00d]

17. Send them this info: (Warning: Long)

To all of those who believe that our founding fathers founded this country on religion, most notably Christianity... please re-think your position. These are the same founding fathers who are viewed as great men, who are quoted unequivocally and whose ideas and laws are considered the best-laid of any in history. You could not be MORE wrong about this country being founded on judeo-christian ideals.

The Constitution of the United States:
* Article VI, Section 3: "...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
* First Amendment: "“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

James Madison:
- "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
- "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
- "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

John Adams:
- "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’" (From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756))
- "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
- "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. … It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. …Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery… are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind" (A Defense of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787–88)

Thomas Paine
- "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
- "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Thomas Jefferson:
- "The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
- "The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible"
- "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
- "It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825)
- "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814)
- "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." (Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823)
- "I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789)
- "They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." (Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800)
- "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." (Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813)
- "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
- "...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’" (From Jefferson’s biography)
- "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814)

George Washington:
- "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."

Abraham Lincoln:
- "The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."


Lastly, Article 11 of The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified and unanimously approved by the Senate in 1797, and signed by John Adams:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion..."

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

These men founded our country and these are their opinions... stop throwing that "America was founded on Christian beliefs" crap at us... it's just NOT TRUE.

Great links:

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/dispatch/fathers_quote2.htm

[ourbluenation]

18. read my signature line for all you need to know. eom.

[mitchum]

19. That's because they are ignorant and uneducated fuckwits

[FreedomAngel82]

20. When I hear that nonsense

I ask them why there is the first amendment. Freedom of press, speech, of religion and from religion. The first amendment allows people to worship other beings besides God. Christian's are just to worship God so if the founding fathers intended this to be a Christian nation why is that law in the Constiution by them? And the Jefferson Bible. He left out all the important parts of Jesus. His virgin birth, death, ressrrection, miracles. Some Christian eh?

[seabeyond]

25. founding father quotes, opposite of what is said about them

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

- Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

- Thomas Jefferson

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

- John Adams

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

-James Madison

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

-James Madison

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Patrick Henry has been quoted as saying that, but as to the context, and the source I am not sure.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible), of which I own a copy. It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it.

John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams again:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Still more John Adams:

“...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

James Madison again:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Finally, a word from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[Protagoras]

26. Great list

Copied for posterity.

[rpgamerd00d]

27. Hey! I posted it first! :p

No respect, I tell ya, No respect!

:D

[Protagoras]

28. well thank you too!

great list! Thanks for it to you and everyone who reposts it so it can grow and grow and populate!

[seabeyond]

31. lol lol i perused to see if i saw the list. it is getting around, that is

a good thing. i didnt see it. didnt mean to step on toes, bully for you bah hahaha. the more that have the list and can copy and paste when we here this garbage nation was founded on christian religion, the better for us all. keep posting.... truly appreciate. and.... i say this,...... in total respect

[MrDale]

29. great lists...

thanks to BOTH who posted these lists. i threw them up and am waiting for the screwed up response. i will probably get the constitution crap i always seem to recieve, but who knows.

[seabeyond]

32. let us know. thanks n/t

[NashVegas]

30. The US Was Founded on the Principles of 18th Century Enlightenment

In which religion played a small and conflicting role.

[MN ChimpH8R]

33. Jefferson and company

were at most deists. Jefferson loathed the clergy and organizsed Xtianity and scoffed at the "divinity" of Jesus. Adams stated that the United States was "in no sense a Christian nation." Someone posted an amazing collection of quotes by the Founding Fathers on religion a couple of weeks ago. Their scorn for organized Xtianity was quite remarkable in its depth.

[Lexingtonian]

34. if Christian Nation means

going into the Middle East to kill Muslims, steal oil from them, impose religion-based totalitarian government on them, and treating Americans who choose or live an Islamic life as criminals and noncitizens...I'd say that isn't Christian in any serious meaning of the word.

But these idiots don't mean 'Christian'. They mean what lies behind the facade of Christianity, all the paganism of their medieval and pre-Christian ancestors. They want the mores and outlook and world of the European people who did burned and hacked up war captives under a pretense of religion, drowned homosexuals and adulterers in swamps, hung 'blasphemers', bludgeoned the mentally ill to death, let deformed newborns die, plundered the natural world, hung idols on their walls and trees, and considered drunkeness the state of consciousness in which visitation from the Gods occurs. They had intricate, complicated, excessive rules in which the powerful always turned out to be right and the poor and weak turned out to be invariably in the wrong. And the priests were never wrong. In short: these people and their ancestors are desecrators of what is actually sacred and, in pretending to be more than human, simply inhuman. When Christianity first came to Europe, the weak and poor saw in it their liberation from this barbarity and materialism...but the elites quickly corrupted it, made it back into the Old Religion with a cute Biblical facade in short order. We've had centuries of war about whose Christianity was more pure by various standards since.

The Founding Fathers saw this 'Christianity', this paganism masquerading as the religion of Paul whose great desire in the Americas was to steal land and wealth and murder and enslave the aboriginal people, and kept it out of their Constitution. Now its last great mass of Believers, in their great final stand for a country that they desire to represent and consist of this paganism, are trying to take over the Constitution and use it against all those who consider them sanctimonious criminals and obsolete.

Wave good-bye to them. Their Last Days are upon them.

[shanti]

36. the founding fathers were deists

"GOD" is found in most religions, not just xtianity.

[AgadorSparticus]

37. you know, you CAN believe in God and NOT be a christian.

I think the founding fathers may have believed in a God, but that doesn't make them Christians. And it doesn't make this a christian nation.

Christians do not have a monopoly on God.

Just as republicans do not have a monopoly on patriotism and the American flag.