How serious are you about separation of Church and State?

[TX-RAT]

Theres allot of city, county, state and federal employees in the US. Are they willing to give up Christmas day as a paid holiday?

[Loonman]

1. city, county, state and federal employees

Government workers giving up a paid holiday?

:rofl:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. what loon said.

[electropop]

2. I'm in that category.

I don't care when the holidays are, as long as I get some.

[TX-RAT]

3. I'm retired from that category. 30 years total.

[H2O Man]

31. That's right.

The vast majority of the government employees in question are represented by a union. The unions negotiate things like the number of holidays the employees get off per year. It is not a religious issue per say; it is a union issue. As a retired government employee, who was active in union negotiations, and who worked numerous Christmas days, I can say that this is not an issue that involves the separation of church and state in any serious manner.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. I'm not willing to give up ANY paid holidays.

I'm not a government employee, however we've already made too many sacrifices to the almighty dollar and "productivity". It's to the point where a lot of people are lucky if they get two days out of the year where they can be relatively assured they will have the day off at the time as many of their friends and/or family. That can't be healthy.

[electropop]

11. What if the number of holidays is kept, but the dates are shifted

say, to all secular days such as Flag Day and Arbor Day?

[BOSSHOG]

5. As a Heart Attack

Holidays are irrelevent. Separation is the number one issue facing this country today. If it isn't clearly understood by everyone in this country it doesn't matter what the other issues are. There is a movement in this country which would set the constitution aside and replace with their religious book. That is not what America is all about.

[sonofliberty]

don't learn from history we are bound to relive it!!! N/T

[mmonk]

6. I side with the constitution.

I can't be bought.

[mondo joe]

7. As a practical matter, so many people would likely take that day off using

vacation that it would be impossible to be an effective business anyway. So: best to shut down.

[Clark2008]

15. This is true.

Despite the number of anti-Christian DUers*, the majority of this country CONSIDERS themselves Christian (and, yes, I know many who don't practice anything the Prince of Peace preached, but these people - they know who they are - still THINK they're Christian); therefore, they'd take vacation and business would shut down, anyway.

*And I mean that in the since that there are certain DUers who want to impose their lack of religion on those of us who practice non-Freepy Christianity. Some people's intolerence OF religion is as bad as the Freepy Christians intolerance of other religions or lack, thereof. Tolerance, people. Tolerance.


Edited for clarity.

[mondo joe]

19. I'm NOT Christian and I'd take the day off anyway.

So would many others.

And I don't think there are almost any "anti-Christian DUers".

[Clark2008]

25. Oh, yes there are.

The problem is that they think people who are Christians are all like Freepers.

It's their lack of tolerance OF religion that bothers me. I don't have a problem with anyone being of another faith or not practicing a religion at all. It's that I see so many posts by people who don't practice a religion who have no tolerance for people who do. They're as bad as Freepy-Christians who don't have any tolerance for anything but their own fundie view.

There are quite a few of us who are liberal Christians on this board - but there's an equal faction who think we're buying into mythology and constantly blast us with that belief.

This board should be more tolerant - is my point.

[mondo joe]

27. Then we disagree. I do think you're buying into mythology, but that's

your right - and I tolerate it. I think you may need to better tolerate other opinions.

But this is beside the point on the holiday question.

[Clark2008]

29. And I could say you're going to Hell... but I don't.

See - that would be the example of the intolerance I'm talking about.

Every time you say I'm buying into mythology, I could tell you that you're going to hell. I don't see the liberal Christians on this board saying that. We're more tolerant than you, apparently.

[mondo joe]

33. I don't care of you say I'm going to hell or not -- if you think it you

might as well say it.

I think it's pretty damn funny that you're holding back from saying I'm going to Hell.

TOLERANCE doesn't mean never disagreeing. It means RESPECTING THE RIGHT OF OTHERS TO THEIR DIFFERENCES.

[Clark2008]

36. My point is that I don't think it , which is why I don't say it.

I have TOLERANCE for your non-beliefs and I also believe that God makes the judgment, not me.

Have tolerance for my beliefs - that's all I'm asking.

[mondo joe]

39. If you don't think it, then you're not really holding back an opinion, are

you?

I tolerate your right to your beliefs, even though I think they're in error. Isn't that tolerance?

[TX-RAT]

40. Y'all are getting off track.

[mondo joe]

43. But I already resolved the issue: so many would take the day off anyway

that it would be impossible to effectively do business.

[TX-RAT]

47. And i agree with you.

Who says they would all be allowed to take that same time period off? A supervisor may say no, we have too many people off at that time, you need to reschedule to an earlier or later date.

[mondo joe]

48. Then you'd get into issues of violating civil rights.

An employer could hardly tell everyone of a particular faith they can't take their holy day off.

[TX-RAT]

50. Not sure thats true.

Where is it required, that employers have to give you a paid holiday. Around here the oil business is the major industry, it runs 24-7, it doesn't shut down for holidays. My wife is an RN at a local nursing home, they work all holidays.

[mondo joe]

51. Who says it has to be paid? Besides - you were asking about

govt employees, weren't you? They are by and large unionized, so days off are negotiated by the union.

But even unpaid, enough people would take the day off to shut the services down.

It's a cute almost "gotcha'" -- but it's not one that holds up to practicality.

[TX-RAT]

52. Not trying for a gotcha

I could have used law enforcement, state medical facility's, or state and federal prisons as an example.

[mondo joe]

59. Same deal. The number of people who would take the day off

would make most business unfeasible.

Essential services must continue.

But if I ran Joe's Atheist Bookstore I'd still be closed on Christmas - because it would be wasteful NOT to.

[Bill McBlueState]

42. who thinks that?

"The problem is that they think people who are Christians are all like Freepers."

Who could possibly think that? We're reminded daily here that not all Christians are like that whether or not it has any bearing on the issue at hand.

There are a number of wonderful contributors to DU who are drawn to progressive politics by their Christian beliefs. Thanks to them, I don't see how anyone could go around thinking that all Christians are Freepers. Still, I don't think that has to be noted every single time people post about the influential Christians who are Freepers.

[acmejack]

26. Ah, the evil "anti Christian Duers"

It must be hell being in such a persecuted group. My heart goes out to all those poor oppressed Christian people! Please, give it a rest...

[Clark2008]

28. Christians aren't necessarily persecuted in the real world,

but they are on this board.

If you don't know that, you're not reading the same threads I do.

Again, not all Christians are Freepers.

[mondo joe]

30. I read plenty of threads and I see a lot of sentiment that anytime someone

disagrees with someone they are "persecuting" or "oppressing" others.

I don't buy it.

[Clark2008]

35. I don't feel persecuted, but I do think there should be

more religious tolerance on this board.

Just because someone is of faith - any faith - doesn't mean we need to be told we're stupid (which is what we feel like when someone slams us with this "mythology" argument).

As I said above, the liberal Christians (and Jews and Muslims) on this board don't tell you non-believers that you're going to hell if you don't believe, so then, why should YOU tell us we're believing in mythology? You can believe that, if you want. I don't, personally, care, but there's no reason why you have to try to make us believers feel stupid (even if you don't succeed).

Again, I'm speaking of a tolerance issue - not an actual "belief" issue.

[mondo joe]

37. LOL --- so you think we're going to Hell, you just don't SAY it?

I don't know why having someone disagree with your beliefs would make you feel stupid.

And honestly, if someone doesn't share your beliefs, what else could they possibly think but that you have bought into a mythology? By imposing silence on the topic, what alternative can you be left with?

[Clark2008]

57. You're not listening, anyway.

I said I don't think you're going to hell and it's against my Christian beliefs to judge you. I've said that twice, now. I was posting that as an example and even SAID it was an example of what COULD be intolerance against non-believers BUT that I never saw it said on this board, proving that religious DUers are more tolerent of non-religious ones than vice versa.

My point is non-believing DUers could do more to be tolerant of religious DUers. The lack of tolerance I see on this board amazes me given that progressives are supposed to be about tolerance.

[mondo joe]

58. But you made a point of what you're NOT saying -

in particular, you make a fuss over the fact that you DON'T tellme I'm going to Hell.

But then you say you don't think it to begin with.

So why would you get credit for not saying something you don't even think?

Why would you compare you saying something you DON'T believe to me saying something I DO believe?

Furthermore, does it SHOCK yuo to know I think you bought into a mythology? Since I don't share you belief, what else could I possibly think?

Even though I think you're wrong I still value tolerance, which means respecting your right to believe as you like.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. I teach in a school district

and we haven't gotten Christmas paid as a vacation day in the 30 years I have been here.

I think a good compromise would be to allow every employee to take one personal day for religious purposes. If your religion happens to be no religion, that counts too.

The thing is, however, paid or not, for the foreseeable future most places are going to be closed on Christmas Day.

[TX-RAT]

14. allow every employee to take one personal day for religious purposes

As a paid holiday, or personal vacation time?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. As a paid holiday, separate from vacation time.

Then if you celebrate Christmas, you can use that day. If you don't, use another day. You would either show up for work on Xmas (if they are open) or not get paid for it.

Just as idea...

[mondo joe]

21. And how about the kids? Do they get a day off too?

Because you're right back at my point: If you have 60% or more taking the same day off, you have an effective shutdown.

[bleedingheart]

10. This is how serious I am...

I say give people 6 floating holidays to be used at their discretion (this is in addition to normal vacation hours)...they can use that to take off for the religious holidays of their choice......

If you want mandated holidays I think Election Day should be a paid holiday.

[Loonman]

12. Ya have to pick your battles wisely

This isn't the way to fight FOX "News" Channel's imaginary "war on Christmas". People love their time off, and they'll take a vacation or sick day, anyway as another poster remarked. We Americans work too hard for not much money to eliminate our leisure time on principle.

[sonofliberty]

13. Wow ..... separation of church and state wasn't that part of our

Constitution? by all means work christmas day lets find some other moronic reason to keep the masses divided and busy so they cannot unite for real change to this already bloated war machine (no matter the party in the 2 party system)run by international banks and industry. Where is the common ground for ALL people to unite in this country and others? it might take more than a poll to get pass the bloated over entertained lack of imagination afflicted U.S. public!! (sorry, ranting)

[Left_Winger]

16. I am a county employee and I'm not paid for time off at Christmas

I am a teacher and we are paid for only 190 days per year. So all the vacation time we have: summers, Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc. are unpaid.

So am I willing to relinquish it as a paid holiday? Sure, I never had it as one to begin with.

[TX-RAT]

22. Does that mean you'll be at work, if the 25th falls on a weekday?

[Bill McBlueState]

44. how would it mean that?

Sounds to me like Christmas Day is an unpaid holiday for the poster.

[TX-RAT]

49. Not before i retired from the county.

This came from a conversation i had this morning at the coffee shop. The individual basically said if it was a paid holiday, and not vacation time, then that showed it to be a recognition by the state. The individual in question is a dirt contractor in the oil fields.

[Left_Winger]

45. I would have no problem with that as I am not a Christian

I'm paid to work 190 days a year and it does not matter to me either way on which day of the calendar they fall.

However, I teach in the "Bible-Belt" and I seriously doubt that anyone around here would have December 25th as a school day.

[LaurenG]

17. No but I don't think all religious symbols should be removed

from federal/public property either. They could change the day to Holiday day and leave all the Christmas, Hanukkah solstice etc decorations they want. They can say Merry Christmas or Happy holidays or speak a hebrew or greek or wiccan or flying spaghetti monster blessing. I don't care. All the problem with this is ridiculous to me. Think of the education we could give to our children when we see and speak respectfully about all viewpoints.

[rman]

18. National holidays as such are not a religious matter

even though some are based on religion.

Seperation of Church and State is about the State not being founded on religion.

[sonofliberty]

23. Separation of church and state was to keep the "Church" out

of the governing bodies what boils me is we have the "church" backing every play and preacher justifying all the actions of our current administration ..... smacks of late 30's germany

[H2O Man]

34. Quite the opposite.

The separation of church and state is simply to keep the government out of the church business.

[Bill McBlueState]

46. it's both

The Establishment Clause keeps the church out of the government's business. The Free Exercise Clause keeps the government out of the church's business.

Those founders covered the bases pretty well.

[H2O Man]

54. Respectfully disagree.

The separation of church and state was not intended to keep, for example, Martin Luther King, Jr from organizing a movement that had social impact, including on legislation. Quite the opposite -- the constitution was Martin's friend.

[Bill McBlueState]

56. two different things

This is why the courts are kept busy interpreting the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses!

There's nothing unconstitutional about a person, who happens to be motivated by his faith, organizing a movement that results in social and legislative change that affects people regardless of religion.

The violation of separation occurs when religious leaders attempt to influence the government to secure a privileged place for their particular religion. That's what's meant by "keeping the church out of the government's business."

[unblock]

24. i have no problem with giving the 1st weekday after 12/24 as a day off

the problem is CALLING it christmas.

just call it winter solstice or winter holiday or even "25th of december", just as we (informally) call independence day "4th of july".

then again, as a practical and political matter, this is yet another LOSER issue best left alone. many bigger fish to fry.

[Bridget Burke]

32. I know plenty of non-Christians who are glad to take the day off.

Holidays can be a reason to take time off from the regular work or school schedule & observe the passage of time. For many traditional Christians, December 25th is the Fist Day of Christmas--not the day to watch football, think about taking down the tree & plan for the post-Christmas sales. Kwanzaa makes the days between Christmas & New Year's a time to celebrate a culture. The Solstice means that, even though the worst of the Winter is ahead, the Sun will return. And most of us get new calendars.

We need Holidays--let everyone find their own reason to celebrate.

[Toots]

38. Give up Happy Holiday holiday....noooo say it ain't true...

:shrug:

[Caution]

41. Very and Yes.

Is there any reason another day can't be a paid holiday? They would still be entitled to take the day off (just like Jewish people can take off Passover, of course us atheists continue to get screwed in the deal but hey that's just par for the course for us).

The government and religion should NOT mix. EVER. PERIOD. As soon as mixing of religion and government occurs people's rights get trampled on.

[porphyrian]

53. Just change the name, if it hasn't been already.

Who gives a fuck what it's called? Lots of religions have holidays around that time. If they don't make it a state holiday, they'll have a bunch of people taking their leave to be off anyway. It's not worth paying to have the lights on, unless you're a convenience store or restaurant or something, and enough of them are already open.

[SidDithers]

55. I'm very serious...

and I celebrate an atheistic Christmas, with Santa Claus and presents under the Christmas Tree, and turkey dinner with family, bad clay-mation Rudolph and Burgermeister-Meisterburger Christmas specials.

I'm claiming Christmas as a non-denominational winter holiday for people of all religions, or no religion at all. Keep Christ in Christmas? I say keep Christ in Church, and leave my Christmas alone.

Sid