Tookie joked with executioner. "You doing that right?"

[MrSlayer]

According to the AP reporter at the press conference.

Apparently they were having some problems finding a vein for the needle in his left arm because of how muscular he was.

Regardless of how I feel about the case, that's ballsy, hardcore.

I always hated when Cagney went to the chair like a punk in "Angels with Dirty Faces".

I don't know.

[Occulus]

1. "because of how muscular he was."

NOT TRUE.

I have more than a bit of muscle on my arms and my veins pop out. Noticeably.

Every muscled man I've ever seen has very exposed, easily-located veins. Nurses love me. They never have a bit of a problem finding an injection point.

Just... FYI. That's all.

[MrSlayer]

3. Well why do you think it was?

They were just intentionally torturing him?

[Heddi]

7. Incompetent Staff? Meannness? Bad Veins?

Who knows. I really don't know. But I can tell you that the longest I've seen any nurse have to take to find a suitable IV site was about 8-10 minutes on an IV-herion user who had been shooting up for about 15 years and had absolutely NO veins to access. They eventually had to do a central line because she had no veins in her arms, hands, wrists, fingers, legs, feet, or toes.

[lady raven]

15. It's very possible...

I had a car wreck in Jan 99. In the ER, It took them 88 sticks (over 90 minutes) to get an IV in me. Maybe it's because I nearly died from hypothermia- I'm not sure. But they were concerned that they would lose me if it took much longer to get an IV in. They finally did it, and in surgery the next day I had a central line inserted.

I have tiny veins and the only time I've had blood taken easily was when I was pregnant. And no, I've never done drugs.

[Heddi]

5. It reallly depends

I just kind of posted on this below.

I worked as a phlebotomist and I'm also a student nurse, and have poked ALOT of people--from ex (and current) IV users with no veins, to people with veins so great I could poke them blindfolded.

Some, not all, people that are muscular have very visible veins, but the skin around the veins is tough and the veins themselves are difficult to get into. I think it depends on what kind of supplements you use, and if you've ever used steriods (that's what I've heard at least)

That being said, even on my first day as a phlebotomist, I'd never have taken 12 minutes to find a vein. Sheesh. That's quite a long time just to set up IV/needle access...

[AllegroRondo]

29. Muscular people are difficult to inject

I trained as a combat medic in the army, one of our jobs was giving IVs. Bodybuilder types had easy to find veins, but their veins tend to roll and move under the skin, making them difficult to get a needle into. Possibly because of lower body fat, which would cushion and hold the vein in place.

[Heddi]

2. I just heard it took 12 minutes to find a vein

and being a phlebotomist/nursing student, you can see the veins in his arms, as he is very muscular, but I've found that muscular people like that have veins that are very tough to poke and get a good line in. But 12 minutes seems a little long to me. I mean, *I* might take 12 minutes, but I'm also not a Dr.....

[Maddy McCall]

6. I know! That's a ridiculously long time.

I have "small veins" and it takes the blood folks a minute or so to find mine. But 12 minutes? That's way too long.

[Heddi]

8. way too long

I wonder if it was an MD who was doing this, or a nurse? I only ask because nurses, generally, do IV and veinipuncture skills far more often than MD's do. Here's a secret: never, EVER get your blood drawn or have an IV placed by an MD. NEVER. They may be able to remove my gallbladder through my eyeball, but they can't fucking put an IV in to save their lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Medics, doctors don't becuase of their oath

and nurses don't for the same reason... medics technically shouldn't but hey who'se counting?

[Kingshakabobo]

26. They DO have doctors performing "the procedure".

They discussed that issue and the ethics of MDs on that radio interview posted by the Nofury and Sapphire (sp?).

In fact, the surgeon that was speaking in opposition to the DP mentioned trying to track down the anonymous MDs and going after their licenses. It kind of pissed me off cause it sounded like the freepers going after abortion doctors.

[Horse with no Name]

24. Yes and No

Older docs were not taught IV skills.
However, in recent years they are teaching residents how to start IV's, especially the surgical residents.

[bmbmd]

27. Baloney.

In the old days, doctors even did their own blood analysis as medical students. We came to work at four, drew our own bloods, started our own IV's, and made rounds. I can start an IV on a turnip in the dark.

[Horse with no Name]

28. My apologies Sir

Shall I say the docs that I have worked with who PERSONALLY told me that they weren't taught these skills?

[T Town Jake]

4. That is a demonstration of a serious set of stones. I'll grant him that.

(n/t)

[donheld]

9. Makes me think Tookie had made peace with his fate

I'm glad he had.

[bklyncowgirl]

10. Sir. Thomas More also joked with the executioner.

As he was kneeling at the block he told the executioner.

"Don't cut the beard--at least that never commited treason."

Not that I'm equating Tookie Williams with Sir Thomas More (who was executed for opposing Henry VIII's divorce of Katherine of Aragon and his take over of the English Church) but there is precedent.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

11. I didnt hear a single witness say he was joking.

He was exasperated that it was taking so long.
12 minutes to find the vein?

[greenman3610]

12. was this on TV or something?

[Nickster]

13. Cagney went to the chair like that because he was sending a message to

the other kids who might follow in his footsteps. I believe it was the priest that asked him to do that so any little gang-bangers wouldn't see his execution as glorious.

[MrSlayer]

14. I know.

I understand why he did it, I just hated to see it.

[Nickster]

20. But it was the best thing to do all things considered no?

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

16. Maybe...

the executioners hands were shaking so bad he couldn't aim the needle properly.

Speaking of famous last words, I remember those of Gary Gilmore, executed a couple decades ago by firing squad, in Utah.

"Let's do it."

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Possibly "rolling veins"

It is very possible he had "rolling veins." No one knows for sure.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Yeah, but Cagney did that on purpose, so that kids wouldn't think he

was a hero, and follow in his rotton footsteps.

[BigMcLargehuge]

31. Beat me to it

that was an amazing scene!

[Walt Starr]

21. Why don't you like how Cagney went out in that movie?

The priest specifically asked him to do it in order to sway the kids away from a life of crime.

It was, perhaps, the noblest act the character performed in his entire life!

The ending made that movie!

[AllegroRondo]

30. Havent seen the film, what did Cagney do?

[Walt Starr]

34. Cagney plays a tough guy gangster type with major influence on a

neighborhood of kids.

He ends up on death row. The priest in the neighborhood knows he'll be a tough guy to the end and tells him about how it will cause another generation of kids to go down the same road.

In the end, Cagney throws the tough guy act overboard and starts screaming in horror as they're about to execute him. It causes the neighborhood kids to think him a punk and not want to be like him

[Horse with no Name]

22. Someone stated upthread

that being a phlebotomist and starting an IV were similar.
They are not. Just about anyone can draw blood. However, threading a large bore catheter into a vein takes quite a bit of skill.
To start with, mechanics are that dark skinned people generally have thicker skin than lighter skinned people.
Also, age is a factor on the skin turgor.
Add to that his drug abuse and scarred veins.
Then realize that you have to have a large bore needle inserted to deliver the drugs, otherwise, the execution would take longer than necessary.
Under difficult circumstances which these obviously were, 12 minutes is not a long period of time.
Seems like the physician should have just done an external jugular line and been done with it.
That is a fairly easy stick.

[holdensphonies]

23. He is one bad mother...

Hey man I am just talking about Tookie.

[newportdadde]

25. Might have had veins that 'roll'.

I have that issue. I've tried to donate blood 3 times and was only successful one time. This past time they had 4 nurses try it for over an hour and my goddamn arms were so sore my wife had to drive the car home(she had been done giving for over 30 minutes).

[Cleetus]

32. Tookie took it like a man

Tookie sure took it like a man, that's for sure.

I wasn't sure how I would feel after they came out and pronounced him dead. Generally I opposee the Death Penalty, but I wanted to see how I would handle it. Nothing changed. The families still had to live with their grief, regardless if Tookie did it or not. Nothing changed, other than a man being executed, that is. Life in prison would have been good enough for me.

12 minutes to find a vein? This seems like "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". I'm sure those 12 minutes were an eternity for the condemned man. 12 minutes? OMFG, if you're gonna do it, then do it.

As standard protocol, heart attack victims have 2 large-bore catheters inserted in their wrists ASAP. This takes less than 12 minutes, much less. Tookie at least deserved to have the process of execution take place as quickly as possible. His suffering in those moments before his death must have been unimaginabley difficult to endure.

[fishnfla]

33. I liked the line in "Breaker Morant"

"Shoot straight, you bastards, dont make a bloody mess of it!"