Who takes a bipolar man who's off his meds onto an airplane?

[MercutioATC]

There have been a few threads on DU questioning the acts of the Air Marshals but none questioning the actions of the woman who actually brought him on the plane.

Did she warn authorities beforehand that the man could possibly become unstable? Wasn't it incredibly irresponsible to fail to do so?

I'm not blaming her for what happened, I'm just suggesting that the incident could have been entirely avoided if somebody had realized that taking a bipolar person who's not medicated on an airplane might not be such a hot idea.

[Loonman]

1. A stupid idiot

People are on meds for a reason. Hell, I'd even say she's culpable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Why?

He is an adult. Was she supposed to have him arrested for not taking his meds? Or maybe you think she could have held him down and forced him to take them?

[Loonman]

31. She is an adult as well

Adults should behave responsibly. It's not anybody's problem why he's not taking his meds, but his spouse or his doctor. When people are off their meds, they can be harmful to themselves and others. She is quite possibly culpable in his death for not informing the authorities of his condition prior to the outburst.


Jesus, people want a fucking nanny state to take care of them from the cradle to the grave. You give up your personal responsibility, and you can go get fucked and who cares what happens to you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Think about what you just said

You believe in personal responsibility yet you expect this guy's wife to take HIS away???

[Ladyhawk]

85. At a certain point, a mentally ill person can no longer be personally

responsible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. And a court must be involved to make that determination

His wife can't just step in and decide he is not capable.

[MercutioATC]

120. No, but she can alert authorities to the problem.

That might have resulted in a different outcome.

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. And stay in Equador

without meds or access to a doctor or hospital?

Sure, that makes sense. :)

[MercutioATC]

128. Slightly better than what wound up happening, no?

She obviously didn't expect him to act up and get shot. However, she COULD have taken actions to minimize the possibility of that happening. Foe whatever reason, she didn't (you're ASSUMING he was involuntarily off his meds...I haven't seen that reported anywhere).

[EFerrari]

39. Now, that takes the cake.

You have obviously never lived with someone who has severe mental illness.

:eyes:

[Loonman]

42. Yes, I have

And it took three incarcerations into the hospital's watch ward, 3 court trips and a restraining order so they no longer lived with me.

[EFerrari]

49. Sounds like it was a roaring success. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Ah she should have just handcuffed him and shot him full of

sedatives. I know we do that to my sister all the time. :sarcasm:

[Loonman]

47. I'm just saying, you are responsible for you and yours

This whole unfortunate incident could have been avoided.

I'm sick of people making excuses, from the government on down, everybody has an excuse for something, "oh, it's society's fault, oh woe is me!"....

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. And I'm just saying there is only so much the family can do

The laws favor the mentally ill person. You can't have a person declared insane as easily as you once could.

[emdee]

126. And even when you do....

the mentally ill person may know the system so well that he/she is out within days, literally - rather than the six months you know is needed. It happened to us more than once (five facilities this year alone). If they decide not to take their meds, no one can make them. And, no one can stop them if they cause a scene. It is heartbreaking.
emdee

[sojourner]

144. it isn't just knowing the system...

the system (here in California) doesn't want them anymore than family or court does. Sad but I've lived it multiple times.

[emdee]

149. This is true....

You are right. My dad is a retired police officer. In his day, if they picked up someone who obviously needed mental help, they could take them to the facility themselves but these days that person has to go to jail and be sent to the facility by a judge, which could take days or longer sometimes. I would venture to guess (and think I've read it somewhere) that most of our homeless and many of our jailed are bi-polar because of these laws to "protect" them.
emdee

[emdee]

145. One more comment....

This is a true story...

A phone call comes in from a hotel eight hours away. "I'm going to die today and wanted to say goodbye." Click.

We call the police in that city and tell them. About an hour goes by and the police call back. "She tells us that she doesn't know what you are talking about. She never told you that, she says. We can't do a thing unless we hear her say something off the wall and she isn't doing it. She's speaking very coherently." They leave.

The bi-polar person can turn it on and off at will sometimes. It is possible that if this woman had told someone and they approached him, he would make her look the fool for saying anything. They can be very smart to get their way.

Yesterday I heard that over 20% of bi-polar people commit suicide. This has been one of our fears for my sister. It wouldn't be inconceivable that this man was actually committing suicide --- I'm not suggesting it, but it would be possible. They don't want anything to appear to be their own fault.

emdee

[sojourner]

147. it's called suicide by cop and it's way too common

[emdee]

150. But at whose will was it done? His own, perhaps?

Maybe is all I'm saying. The wife could spend her life blaming herself but she shouldn't, imo.
emdee

[sojourner]

160. I agree...for one thing she probably NEVER expected him to

do what he did - medicated or no. For another I doubt she considered that there would be armed personnel on board who would shoot first and ask questions later. I'm not certain we've all absorbed how much things have changed ---

And his role in what he did is something we won't ever know - but could he have been thinking that this was his chance to "get out of Dodge?" -- cuz regardless of what else folks around here think, I don't think people with mental illnesses have it so great in our supposedly "enlightened" society.

[emdee]

164. I agree

They don't have it great at all and neither do family members. Probably when they got on the plane, she breathed a sigh of relief thinking they'd be home soon and whatever she'd already been through would be behind them. Who knows. But, I do know that she shouldn't blame herself. Sure, there are always a thousand things one might do differently *but* what I've learned is that there is no way to predict what a bi-polar person will do. Whether on or off their meds (as someone pointed out, many times they are on the wrong medication to begin with). They are the most unpredictable people I've ever dealt with and the laws we have now do not protect them or their families at all.
emdee

[KC_25]

193. I suggested that this incident

may well have been suicide by cop...
Off his meds, big argument with his wife, runs off the plane, reaches into a bag when cops have told him to lie down..No one seems to even acknowledge that possibility...

[MercutioATC]

50. Alternately, she COULD have just warned airport personnel.

Maybe the outcome would have been the same.

Maybe they would have refused to allow him to board.

Maybe the Air Marshals would have handled things differently if they KNEW about his situation beforehand.

Nobody's suggesting treating the mentally ill like prisoners or animals. It might be a good idea to let authorities know what's going on in situations like this, however.

[EFerrari]

53. Geezus. We don't even know if he was on appropriate meds

or if they were even available to him.

But, let's blame the WIDOW.

[MoonRiver]

78. She might have saved his life had she acted responsibly.

Sad as that is to face, it's reality.

[EFerrari]

89. She didn't pull the trigger AND you don't know how she prepared

for this trip.

To blame this woman for this shooting when she probably has spent their whole marriage taking care of her partner is pretty disgusting.

[Cathyclysmic]

73. Thank you!

I think I read a stat saying 80% of mental health patients do not take their meds according to instructions.

[Ladyhawk]

92. That's very true. It doesn't help that so many are against drugs

of any kind. I see a lot of bashing of anti-depressants on this forum. I admit they don't seem to work for me, but for some people, taking them is a life and death matter. Advising someone to stop taking anti-depressants can be akin to advising a diabetic to stop taking insulin.

[EFerrari]

95. And on the other side of that one, I've fired six doctors

before we found one who could adequately prescribe AND monitor. And that includes Los Angeles County. It's a full time job for YEARS sometimes just getting that far. A study in the UK said, the average time to get the meds you need is 8 YEARS. And that's the average. :(

[Cathyclysmic]

167. Me too

since I was 16, I've seen dozens of doctors and have been diagnosed with everything from an iron deficiency to chronic fatigue syndrome. It took a trip to the psych ward(because I thought my Grandma wanted to kill me) to finally get a doctor to see what was going on. And,yes, it was years(I'm 31 now) until the meds were sorted out and taken correctly(if I can afford them at $50 a month)

Not to be dramatic, but, I feel like one of the lucky people with a mental illness that was caught before I hurt myself or someone else. From what I've heard on the news about what happened on that flight, I'm really ashamed of what happened and so many people could have stopped it...including family, friends and doctors.

[EFerrari]

179. Or, some combination. We really need our networks.

Ours make our lives possible. There is no way I could support Doug alone, although I have had to many times, and my own health has been compromised in the process. This is the lesson, if nothing else, we need to consider about these two poor people.

[Punkingal]

90. You don't know what you re talking about.

I am very close to a bi-polar person, and the doctors won't do SHIT when he goes off his meds. I feel nothing but pity for the wife, because I know how helpless she was to do anything.

[MercutioATC]

100. Maybe not "helpless"...

"She said it was her fault that he was bipolar," said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger. "He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane."

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051207144209990016


All I'm saying is that it appears as if different decisions could have been made BEFORE the man lost control, too.

[Punkingal]

135. Well, I didn't know she convinced him to get on the plane.

That was foolish. But I'm even sorrier for her than I was before, if she thinks it's her fault he was bi-polar. What a tragedy....any way you look at it, it's just a tragedy. People used to be able to get help with mentally ill family members, and it is just getting harder and harder to do that these days. And I apologize for my tone...it's just impossible to explain the frustration of dealing with someone who is bi-polar, and no one can possibly imagine what it is like unless they have been there, and sometimes I let that pain and frustration out in anger at those who don't know. Peace. :hug:

[MercutioATC]

138. Neither did I when I started this thread.

I just saw the quote.

No offense taken. This is a difficult issue. Peace :)

[sojourner]

175. her fault he was bipolar?

how the hell is that possible? she inject him with bipolar virus? --- she felt responsible...like a mother whose child walking across the road and hit by car feels responsible for letting him be in the crosswalk instead of safe at home

course everyone knows that mothers should not allow their kids in crosswalks.

[MercutioATC]

186. No, but she convinced him to get on the plane.

[bahrbearian]

200. I see your at it again give it up.. your acting "Childish"

[MercutioATC]

201. I'm sorry, I don't recall addressing you....

I was responding to another poster.

If you're going to interject your opinion, you could at least have the courtesy to HAVE one...or do you plan to continue to spout one-liners?

[bahrbearian]

203. You nailed it ,, for you One -Liners

[MercutioATC]

204. At least we know where we stand.

I can't imagine why somebody with a differing opinion would choose to sling petty insults instead of debating the issue, but you're certainly entitled to do that if you wish.

[athena]

208. The article says no such thing.

Where did you get that?

[emdee]

113. I know too.....

There were several instances that I've witnessed from my bi-polar family member that would have gotten her shot if she'd behaved that way in public - especially at an airport. One of those instances happened right on my back porch - a bi-polar rage cannot be stopped by anyone, least of all family.
emdee

[WI_DEM]

161. I've known people who insist on not taking their meds

What was the woman supposed to do? In the end it was the man who was responsible to take his meds--not his wife and not anybody else--you can't force somebody to do something if they are inclined not to. I will say, however, that she could have warned the airline if he had been acting strangely and given them a reason prior to the flight.

[Texasgal]

2. You have made an EXCELLENT point!

If she knew that he was NOT medicated and could be possibly erractic...why would they fly?

Very good point.

[MoonRiver]

5. She wanted to get where she was going, and was hoping for the best.

Very stupid and irresponsible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Have you ever lived with or been close to a mentally ill person?

They go off their meds. There are many reasons - affordability is one. They also get to feeling better and denial sets in and they decide they don't need their meds anymore. Med compliance is a big issue with many people who have mental illnesses.

[MercutioATC]

12. I'm not disputing that at all.

I'm assuming that you have direct experience with somebody with a mental illness.

If that illness was bipolar disorder and there was a chance that the person could behave erratically (in a way that could be percieved as violence) when they were off their meds, would you think taking them on an airplane was a good idea?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Depends on where we are going

Could be a plane is the quickest way to get to the psychiatric hospital.

We also don't know if this guy had a history of violence. Maybe this was the first time he did something like this.

[MercutioATC]

41. Point taken (about the possibility of this being the first time).

Even if you felt that it was absolutely necessary to take a plane, wouldn't you consider it irresponsible to not let authorities know there could be a problem?

(I'm assuming a history of violence)

[DoYouEverWonder]

108. Please delete - dupe post

[DoYouEverWonder]

109. Do you think this woman had a crystal ball ?

How the heck is she suppose to be able to predict anyone else's behavior when they got on the plane? Just because someone is bi-polar doesn't mean they act crazy all the time, even when they are off their meds. Maybe the flight attendants should have noticed there was a problem with a passenger and done something about it when he started acting up? I thought they were trained for this sort of thing?

[MercutioATC]

125. No, but she KNEW he was bipolar and she KNEW he was off his meds.

(and, apparently, she had to talk him into getting on the plane)

She had the ability to notify airline personnel about the situation. It seems that would have been the responsible thing to do.

[DoYouEverWonder]

139. There are probably a lot of things she 'should' have done

but she didn't shot him and she tried her best to prevent him from getting shot when things got out of control. However, it is the armed and trained professionals who are supposed to know how to handle these situations without discharging their weapons in a major airport. Give the victim a break. It's the marshals who killed him. They are the ones who are responsible. Especially, since the circumstances surrounding this incident appear to be 'evolving'. I saw a report this AM that the marshals did have him under control at the front of the plane. Then they were walking off the plane with him and people heard shots being fired in the bridge. Maybe we should wait to find out more about this case before passing judgment on his widow.

[MercutioATC]

140. That's all I'm saying.

There's been a lot of talk about what the Air Marshals did AFTER the man freaked out. I wanted to discuss some of the decisions made BEFORE the incident that could have been made differently.

[RobinA]

218. Oh, Get Real

Every time a person with mental illness goes off meds one is supposed to notify some authority? That's ludicrous. Ya know how many people are on a plane at any given time who are mentally ill and off meds? Or in the grocery store, or driving down the street?

[sojourner]

163. From reading the account, doesn't sound like there was time for

anyone to do much. Flight marshalls took most proactive stance according to training, I'm sure. Assumption out the door is that anyone doing anything out of the ordinary is "terrorist". How much more so if he/she actually says "bomb" and runs away and doesn't follow those hollered commands to "Stop! Drop to the ground NOW!"?

And once upon a time I didn't realize that nobody in our society is actually trained to deal with mentally ill persons. Except psych workers. And THEY are hesitant to deal with anyone who they suspect might be violent. So, far as I can see...if you have mentally ill people in your life --- you are screwed! Or if you are the one with the illness, maybe even dead. One way (shot by cop) or the other (homeless under the bridge, murdered or suicided).

[EFerrari]

60. My husband pretty famously threw our Christmas tree

out a closed window. (Holidays being another trigger!)

That was the first public time. And everyone treated it as spousal abuse -- except me and his therapist. And it took the three of us five more years to get him stable.

He could have been shot that night, easily. He was paranoid as hell and he thought me, our son AND THE RESPONDING OFFICERS were all trying to kill him. We should just kiss the ground every day that those days are over.

In fact, I'm going to find some ground to kiss, right now. :silly:

[MissB]

66. Wow.

:hug:

[RobinA]

217. Having Dealt

with people with serious mental illness, I think a large part of what that is about is hoping for the best. You can't lock them up in a padded room.

[Texasgal]

17. Yes...I can agree with that...

I had a boyfriend who was bi-polar and very erratic. He wouldn't take his meds...etc...

But when he got like that his parents would take him home and take care of him until he got better. ( we were in college ) I realize that this particular scenario may be a luxury to some, but if she KNEW her husband could have possibly be combative, maybe she could have alerted airline officials? Stay home? Do something?

The deal here is... it's very tragic, any way you look at it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Do you think they would have let them fly

if she alerted airline officials? I honestly don't know but I am not sure I would have said anything if I was her.

[Texasgal]

28. Exactly the posters point...

SHE had the ability to either tell someone or NOT fly KNOWING that her husband was not medicated and could possibly be a danger to himself or others!

[Fovea]

18. Give the poster a cigar

Trying to control my 13 years older, bipolar martial arts instructor brother when he went off his meds (and did not tell anyone) provided me with some of my more impressive scars.

[MercutioATC]

27. That's exactly my point.

I'm not dismissing the difficulties of dealing with the disorder. In fact, those difficulties are sort of the point.

If your brother were an adult and still prone to those episodes when he was not taking his meds, would you take him on an airplane?

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Study up on the law

You can't hospitalize people anymore against their will - not like we used to be able to do. There is only so much a family member can do. His wife's hands were tied. Even if she had said something, the airline folks could have decided he seemed lucid enough to fly.

[MercutioATC]

43. Or maybe they wouldn't have let him fly...

My point is that it seems she should have, at LEAST, let the authorities know about the situation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Maybe she didn't know he was off his meds

until they got on the plane and he started acting strangely. Mentally ill people can be masters at manipulation. Chances are she had no idea he had stopped taking his meds.

I feel sorry for the woman. I just can't buy in to criticizing her after she lost her husband in such a tragic way.

[MercutioATC]

56. I think the whole situation is unfortunate.

We now have a dead man, a widow, a planeload of passengers who were scared, and two Air Marshals who have to deal with the emotional trauma of a shooting. Bad all around.

I'm not trying to criticize her...I'm trying to discuss the decisions that were made prior to the shooting. Plenty of people have already discussed the actions of the Air Marshals, I thought it would be constructive to look at the events and decisions that led up to the event. It seems to me that some poor decisions MIGHT have been made which contributed to the eventual outcome.

[RobinA]

219. "The Situation"

means nothing. Bipolar people are off their meds all the time and they don't go around charging the cops normally. Rarely, they do.

[Fovea]

162. I would not be taking him on an airplane

I might accompany him on an airplane, but as an adult, he would be a free agent.

That is different than a mentally ill 12 year old, whom I might actually be taking somewhere.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. I have a sibling

and we have to bribe her and threaten her all the time. It's been 30 years since she was initially diagnosed. So yes, I understand why you have scars.

She just called me. We had a frickin blizzard here last nightand she wanted me to take her somewhere because she doesn't like driving in the snow. I told her no. And I am hoping something else will distract her and she will stay at home. But I have a feeling . . .

I better go clean off my car. LOL

[emdee]

156. They don't handle "no" very well, do they? n/t

n/t

[mondo joe]

88. All the more reason to take precautions and use communication

to try to pave the way for as easy a way as possible.

[MrMonk]

191. "Only crazy people need these med's. If I stop taking them,

then I won't be crazy." Seen it, lived it.

[verse18]

4. Your talking about this mentally ill man

as if he is a piece of fucking luggage. That WAS her husband.

So you plan on restricting every mentally ill person from flying on airplanes?

[Sandpiper]

7. The Air Marshall's only mistake

Was that he didn't shoot the wife too!

Kill 'em all, I say!


:sarcasm:

[Loonman]

9. Nobody said that

It's called personal responsibility, if you've heard of it, or do you need the government to hold your widdle hand 24/7?

[MercutioATC]

19. No, I'm questioning the decision of his wife to bring him onto a plane

KNOWING that he was bipolar and KNOWING that he wasn't medicated.

You're trying to paint my statement with a pretty broad brush. Every mentally ill person isn't a possible hazard. Somebody who's bipolar and not medicated IS a possible hazard. This man obviously WAS a hazard.

[EFerrari]

25. There is a larger point here, too.

Travelling is very stressful for people who struggle in their daily lives with serious mental health conditions. Period.

So, someone in that situation IS more likely to have an episode on an airplane, during a long road trip, in an unfamiliar hotel. These things can be predicted.

[sendero]

34. You know...

... "bipolar" covers an incredibly wide swath of mental disorders, very unlike most others such as depression, schizophrenia, etc.

People who are bipolar can also have other mental problems. Frankly, going nuts on an airplane is not particularly bipolar in nature, if you understand what I mean.

It sure is easy to second-guess and armchair quarterback. It is quite possible this woman has managed her husband while he was "off meds" many times without incident.

We really know almost nothing about what really happened, including the idea this guy made a bomb threat. Based on what I'm seeing so far, I doubt that he did.

[AngryOldDem]

93. Maybe, maybe not

>>>This man obviously WAS a hazard.>>

I've seen and heard some pretty bizarre stuff from people who have been diagnosed as bipolar, schizophrenic, etc. Would I consider any of them dangerous? No, not really, but then again, I know them, and know what their illnesses entail. An air marshal, flight staff, and passengers on an airplane, however, have no such idea. All the more reason why knowingly taking an unmedicated bipolar patient into such a closely confined environment was irresponsible at best and reckless at worst. For all we know, the situation of being on an airplane might have triggered his outburst. In any other place, who knows if he couldn't have been brought under control. A tragic case, all the way around.

[davekriss]

192. I agree with you, very tragic

I have an adopted bipolar daughter. She's extreme. Early-onset, rapid-cycling. Comorbid PDD, ADHD, ODD. It is just plain unbelievable what can happen. Spend a day with us and you will appreciate how inane it is when someone says "you're crazy" ... most people have no idea!

When I shared this story with my wife yesterday (who is extremely generous and empathetic), the first thing she said was "unmedicated? -- she (the wife) should've alerted a flight attendant."

I characterize BP as having no internal brakes. Once a mood gathers some momentum, there's no stopping sometimes until they hit something hard and unyielding ... like, in this case, a bullet. The "mood" can be giddy, joyous, angry, anxious -- anything. The triggers can be totally irrational to us. What triggers a melt down one day can be met with disinterest the next. Very perplexing disease, and a not very promising prognosis for many saddled with it. Great numbers can't finish school, maintain social relationships, hold a job -- and end up homeless, in jail, or dead.

I'd have to know more before I could decide blame needs to be assigned. But to blame the wife in these circumstances is just plain cruel. She did not take on the responsibilities, nor possesses the capabilities, of an MD, PhD, or MSW, when she said "I do". She most likely has felt desparate and helpless for years.

Please, blame the disease, not its victims!

On EDIT: I want to add, although the prognosis can be pretty bleak, the bipolar are disproportionately represented in the creative professions too. My daughter, just 14, is a wonderful writer. There can be a gift in the madness, a silver lining (so any of you out there who are BP, don't give up hope!!!).

[bicentennial_baby]

20. ....

:applause:

[Texasgal]

21. Ofcourse not!

That's ridiculous!

Just don't scream that you have a bomb, and when authorties tell you to STOP and LIE DOWN, you'll be okay....

[TX-RAT]

51. So you plan on restricting every mentally ill person from flying on airplane

If their uncontrollable and non-compliant with their meds and their loved ones can't control them, YES.

[sojourner]

166. I'd say that's coming down the highway real soon....

that or get used to the idea that your mentally ill loved one may just be the next casualty of the post 9/11 world.

For folks who say she shouldn't have gotten on the plane with him...I don't imagine many of you have tried to get medication or any kind of service for a loved one when outside your home town. Cuz it's freakin' impossible!!!!

Getting him home was probably her only hope for getting him safe. If she realized he was off meds. She may have feared that saying something to authorities would get them booted off flight. I believe I've read of that outcome several times recently. I don't know what kind of fucking miracle people expect her to have pulled out of her ass.

I gotta go blow off some steam. This topic hits too damn close to home!!

[Warpy]

8. Somebody who wants to get him home and to his shrink!

My extended family is full of bipolars, and trust me, they are not easy to deal with. They will do fine on meds for years, but they'll miss those "highs" and go off their meds periodically, self medicating with alcohol to try to mellow the worst of it. They end up being grandiose, which makes them paranoid, and alcohol puts a layer of belligerence on top of that.

My guess is that his wife was desperate to get him back to his doctor and back on his meds. I don't fault either one of them.

This is just a tragedy born of a deranged guy, a wife who wasn't listened to, and agents who unthinkingly did what they were trained to do, unthinking being a part of that training.

[EFerrari]

10. She may have not had a say in the matter. And it sounds as

though she was doing her best to buffer this situation.

I've been in that situation many, many times before we found adequate treatment for my husband. He wasn't as visible as this poor guy but every bit as out of touch with shared reality. My husband is 6'10" and weighs 250 lbs. I couldn't really keep him off a plane if he was determined to be on it.

There's a very high per centage of people with mental health problems that have police contact -- mostly because only a small per centage get good care. :(

[MercutioATC]

30. I'm not trying to second-guess every detail, but she COULD have

alerted authorities about his condition. They would have refused to allow him to board or, at the very least, the Air Marshals would have been aware of the situation beforehand.

[EFerrari]

I wonder who, if anyone, she tried to get to help her.

I once spent an entire weekend at a payphone in Las Vegas, calling home and trying to get a doctor to help me. Doug decompensated just after we checked in. It was pretty scary. That was before I knew about travel being a trigger or even, exactly what was up with him. He wasn't diagnosed until he was 40! And I'd only been married to him for about a year.

The family really can do a LOT but there's no place they can go to Carer School. We are on our own pretty much, and in the US, horribly left out of the loop by the medical profession -- as if there are no consequences to us or others. We have to self start to a degree you wouldn't even believe.

/typo

[MercutioATC]

63. I'm relying on the info we have to date.

Should that information change, I'll certainly review my impressions.

I agree with you that the recources available to family of the mentally ill are almost nil, and that's a travesty. I have a friend that was medically retired from the Navy and bounced from VA hospital to VA hospital. On one visit, his fingers were burned because he smoked and they had him so medicated that he forgot that he had a cigartte in his hand sometimes. I spent the next two hours trying to deal with nurses and doctors and got absolutely nowhere. It took me two weeks to get him out of there.

[EFerrari]

69. So, you've seen first hand the consequences of being

on medication.

A lot of times, people go off of them because they can't tolerate the side effects. It's a tough negotiation.

[MercutioATC]

72. I completely agree, and I can sympathize to a degree.

I've never had to deal with it 24/7 for an extended period of time, but I have gotten an idea of what that might be like. I'm certainly not trying to minimize the issue.

[sojourner]

168. I think she coaxed him onto the plane. Sounds like she just needed to get

him home and to the doc. We know what it would have been like if she'd tried to get him any help in Miami (assuming she had the funds to hire a taxi or rent a car, get a hotel for the night, etc.) -- on their way back from vacation. Might have been dead broke. I usually am on my way back from a trip.

[EFerrari]

183. These poor people.

:(

[Not Sure]

11. I don't know what control she had or did not have...

of this situation, but some people behave quite well until agitated when they are "off their meds."

I have a bi-polar friend who de-medicated himself, drove to the airport, bought a one-way ticket to Hawaii and within a couple hours of taking off, panicked. He was brought down and restrained by passengers and crew until he was given to the authorities at the airport where the plane made an unscheduled landing because of this incident. He's finally out of prison for this incident, but is not allowed to fly again. I'm feeling fortunate not to have lost him given the outcome of yesterday's events.

[EFerrari]

15. Welcome to DU, twominuteshate.

:hi:

[Quixote1818]

52. She actually convinced him to get on the plane

"She said it was her fault that he was bipolar," said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger. "He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane."

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051207144209990016

[sojourner]

169. welcome and allow me to share your "phew!" moment....

those of us with mentally ill loved ones have entered a really perilous time in history, IMO (Perhaps not the MOST perilous but more than I imagined possible in an educated and enlightened society)

[Sanity Claws]

13. Not all bipolars are violent

When bipolars go off meds, they don't necessarily become violent. In fact, this guy may never have had any violent tendencies. That could be why his wife never said anything.
Have you ever heard of suicide by policeman? He may have been so depressed that he took actions that he knew would cause a police officer of some kind to shoot to kill.

[hlthe2b]

I agree she should have warned authorities...

But, there were cultural/language barriers, it sounds like. Perhaps she was afraid they wouldn't let them travel? or....?

Extremely tragic but not really unexpected. I'd bet few of our law enforcement officers get much training in recognizing/dealing with mental illness.

[EFerrari]

33. There is a movement, backed by NAMI and other groups

to encourage police officers to undergo special training for this, actually.

And, two cops started the Consensus Project after two schizophrenics were shot and killed in a midwestern city -- maybe Chicago? Milwaukee? When I read that, I called and thanked those cops. My hubby came this close to ending up as roadkill on more than one occasion.

www.consensusproject.org

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. In the small suburb where my sister lives

they have cops trained to deal with the mentally ill. And they are wonderful. Last time we had an 'incident', this cop was called at home and he came off duty to go over to my sister's house and talk her in to committing herself to the psych ward. We had called 911 and the operator sent another cop over to sit with us while we waited for him to arrive. And it took him maybe 20 minutes. The first cop was there in 5 minutes. I was so impressed and will be eternally grateful for the way they handled the situation. They also let my sister and I drive her to the hospital instead of calling an ambulance and alerting the neighbors to a 'problem'.

We are very lucky to have excellent services for mental health in this county. We also have a fairly active NAMI group.

[EFerrari]

67. It's really good to hear that. I used to have a "Mental Health

Report Card" page at Doug's site that "graded" communities. People from all over sent in reports about incidents they were involved in. Awful, awful stories but also encouraging ones, too. I'd post them with the community's name. Then, if a good report came in about a PD or about a hospital staff, I'd call the entity, thanked them and invited them to read the report.

It worked really well. And I know police departments especially liked it because they are in the trenches right next to families yet, few people seem to appreciate that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. My sister was hopitalized for 5+ years at Menninger's

in Topeka. That was a wonderful wonderful hospital (and smack dab in the middle of Kansas of all places :) ). When they released her, the docs told us to never let her move out of our county.

When she was admitted 25 years ago, her care was $12000 a MONTH. My mom's insurance covered 100% of the cost. I shake when I think about how mediical care, insurance and treating mentally ill people has changed since then.

We have been incredibly fortunate.

[EFerrari]

83. I've heard very good things about Menninger's!

She has been very, very fortunate to have such a supportive family. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Thanks, we try

She is now living with our very senile mother and doing an awesome job taking care of her. We try so hard to keep her as stress free as possible. But she insisted we let her take care of Mom and not put her in a nursing home. So far, it is working. They are very happy together, but talk about some strange days. LOL

Did you know that Menninger's closed? It was a huge blow to Topeka. I think they were bought out by a large health care consortium and moved to Texas somewhere. I don't think any of the original Menninger family members are affiliated with the hospital anymore.

[davekriss]

195. (it costs us $40,000 per month)

for my daughter. Costs have ranged over the years from a low of about $35k to a high of $50k. We're at around $1.5 million spent so far (and she's just 14!).

Many of us know that mental health is generally only partially covered by job-related health insurance (until you get way up the corporate hierarchy where the coverage is better). Though we've been ruined several times over, at other times we've gotten the bills paid and thus the care. It varies much from state to state (we've had to move state to state), but Title 19 Medicaid exemption programs have been a Godsend. Our good/bad luck is our daughter is very sick (no quibbling on that part) and I adopted her sibling, too, who is autistic (so there is quick state recognition that we are in extreme circumstances). The good side of all this, though, is entirely my wife's, who is a ferocious and gifted an advocate as an ill child can ever find. (Hats off to you, babes!!) Trust me, you never want to stand between her and what she thinks her children need!

[hlthe2b]

155. I empathize with you and am amazed at some posts here...

There seems to be some expectation that the family can totally control an adult family member with severe mental illness--or perhaps the expectation would be that the family could charter a private medical flight to get their loved one back home for treatment? I'm sure most of us have an extra $200,000 or more around, right?

Those who belive mental illness to be a personal weakness are so frighteningly in denial, it amazes me. I had the supervisory experience of trying to get a colleague back from an overseas assignment, where, she had a psychotic break that was very likely the result of anti-malarial medication she had been put on. Fortunate, I guess that we could get her back (accompanied) via military transport, because I would guess she would have been at risk for this kind of thing as well. Her acute mental break was due to a drug reaction... That should give some posters here (who are suggesting that they would have shot the person in the back themselves, twice), some pause...

[EFerrari]

181. Yes! See my #153. n/t

[punpirate]

14. He and his wife had just come from...

... Quito, Ecuador. Maybe he ran out of medication in a foreign country, or maybe it was in bag lost by the airline, or maybe his wife feared he was was going to become uncontrollable at some point in the future and wanted to get him home to his doctor as quickly as possible. These days, warning the airline ahead of time means you don't fly....

Cheers.

[bicentennial_baby]

23. All excellent points

Especially this one:

"These days, warning the airline ahead of time means you don't fly...."

[Texasgal]

36. These days, warning the airline ahead of time means you don't fly...."

He would be alive then..... maybe a warning is what needed to happen in this case.

[Thorandmjolnir]

151. Maybe he did not think he would get shot!

Maybe they never contemplated that he would actually being shot, for not having his medication!

Why is killing a person always the first option, and not the last?

[MercutioATC]

Actually, ordering the man to stop was the first option...

...the FAMs did that. Shooting WAS the last option.

[Texasgal]

172. Well...

They did try non-vilent means to take this man down ya know...

They commanded him to STOP and LIE down, which he did not do.... I believe shooting was the SECOND option in this case.

[davekriss]

196. Excellent, excellent point!! (eom)

[MercutioATC]

37. Maybe flying wasn't such a great idea in this case...

There are reasons they might not let an unmedicated man with bipolar disorder on an airplane. Unfortunately, this situation shows one of them.

[blue2helix]

24. Just Trajedy, No Need For Blame

It's just tragic period. Sometimes shitty things happen. We later try to analyze the pieces and construct the illusion the we have control of all things all the time.

I don't blame any participant for anything, I'm just sad that someone died.

[MercutioATC]

45. Again, I'm not trying to place blame...

I'm just attempting to bring another facet of the situation into the discussion.

[EFerrari]

55. And, that's why I think this is a useful question.

It can take YEARS -- like more than five -- for a bi polar person to be correctly diagnosed and put on meds that work for that person.

We are going to see this again.

[blue2helix]

61. I'm just pointing out that sometimes we emotionaly react to news

Well, being that a human being is now dead. It certainly warrants an investigation of the facts.

I'm just pointing out that sometimes we emotionaly react to news, we usually want to assign cause or blame to an uncomfortable situation because it makes us feel better and in control, when in fact, existence can be very chaotic and very much outside of our control.

Can we really anticipate 100 percent of the time the consequences of each and every decision we make every single day? Have you (generaly speaking not personal) every made a bad judgment and nothing bad happens simply because the odds were in your favor and it didn't? Like fiddle with the radio while driving, or looking the wrong way while crossing the street, etc...

The dice are WAY bigger than we are.

[raccoon]

116. Excellent post. nt

[davekriss]

197. We really control so little in our lives

Letting go and moving on can be so important.

Be at peace
Keep your peace
Forgive
And be patient

The above are words that came to me like a gentle dove after a morning of prayer. It preceded my daughters latest round of breakdowns and hospitalizations. They have been a strength to me.

[murray hill farm]

26. this story has a lot of questions unanswered at this point.

Was the man actually off his meds...what is meant by this...was he traveling on business..to visit relatives...had he chosen to not take his meds so that he would be more alert for his trip...this sometimes happens. meds used to treat bipolar are effected by so many things..other meds will react...or was he taking a new med...and on his trip realized that he could not deal with the side effects..these things happen. the main question i would have is why..why did he stop taking his meds? The wife, it looks like did what she could...it is difficult to deal with a bipolar spouse...u don't know...u have seen him without his meds..and he seems ok...u think and hope this will be the case..it has been before, etc. Another question i would have is why did they shoot to kill..and gunfire might have well set off explosives if he had been carrying them in his carry on luggage..especially if he had his hand in it to set it off...i would think common sense would require other forms of weaponry on board a plane. What is the history of this man? Too many questions, i would think..to make any judgment, at this point.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. With all the delays and cancellations in the airline industry these days

his meds could have worn off during the travel process.

I don't know, but it's a possibility.

[nomaco-10]

38. He and his wife were in Equador doing missionary work....

I don't know how long they were there. Maybe he ran out while out of the country. Maybe he thought his faith could overcome his illness. Who knows. Whatever the reason, it's a real tragedy and probably a preventable death for many reasons.

[mopinko]

46. i missed the handout of free crystal balls! can i still get one?

oh, and the wands of perfect control of mentally ill people, and the chaos they spread in the lives of those around them. i would like one of those, too.
wake up people! you do not know what the fuck you are talking about if you expect someone to be in control of their mentally ill family members.

[Quixote1818]

54. Read this

"She said it was her fault that he was bipolar," said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger. "He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane."

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051207144209990016

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Well if the alternative was staying in Equador,

I think I would have wanted him on that plane too if I was her.

[bloom]

76. It's not her "fault"

that he was bipolar. That's ridiculous. I don't care if she said it or not.

[MercutioATC]

82. Maybe she actually said "It's my fault. He's bipolar."

We're dealing with a third-hand quote, so it's difficult to say...

[bloom]

123. I still don't see her having fault.

She didn't cause him to be bipolar. If he didn't take his meds or ran out of meds - that would still be his fault.

[mopinko]

103. yeah, you do feel responsible when shit happens to your

mentally ill loved one. you turn yourself inside out to take care of and protect them. but in the real world you can't. even legally, you usually can't control them or the rest of the world.
if you have never walked in those shoes, don't judge. if you have, you wouldn't.

[Love Bug]

154. For one, that's hearsay. If she did say those things wouldn't that be

guilt and grief talking? Good grief, the woman just saw her husband killed in front of her yet some here want to hold her responsible for that based on that statement that she may or may not have said.

Ask anyone here who has ever had to deal with a mentally ill family member (especially a child) and let them tell you how they have had these thoughts themselves. We who are healthy sometimes blame ourselves for the illnesses of our loved ones even if we are not responsible.

Who are any of us to judge, especially based on "facts" from a medium that promotes the sensational at the expense of the truth? Will Rogers used to say, "All I know is what I read in the papers." Well, all we know about this is what has been reported by the Media, and we know how accurate and truthful they are. :sarcasm:

[mopinko]

157. we blame ourselves and

lots of idiots blame us, too. what bullshit.

[expatriot]

58. you may not be blaming her, but she is.

Okay, so she did something she shoudnt have done. He didn't want to get on the plane in the first place and she convinced him. Yes, she should have known better but she probably just thought it was the quickest way to get home and get him his meds, etc. maybe she had to get to work and she just thought it would be all right.... but now she has to live with it. she has to live with seeing her (obviously much loved) husband gunned down in front of her because she convinced him to go on the plane in the first place. Does her punishment fit her "crime." I don't think so. I am not bipolar but I am very, very adhd and at times it is almost like i am bipolar... i just read about this story and I nearly cried with sympathy for this woman because I could see my wife making the same decisions that this woman made just to get us home and I thinking to herself "we can make it" and I know how my wife would be unable to cope with the guilt of having made those decisions.

on edit: I realize you are not blaming her, but other respondents have taken it in that direction.

[flordehinojos]

62. SUE JEB BUSH'S OKAY CORRAL! SHOOT FIRST - ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

[emdee]

64. No, No, No.....

Sorry but I've been there --- there is NO way to control a bi-polar person who isn't taking his/her meds. Believe me. The very subject took up the first half of 2005 for my family.
emdee

[MercutioATC]

77. Well, it seems she DID manage to convince him to get on the plane...

"She said it was her fault that he was bipolar," said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger. "He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane."

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051207144209990016


I know what you're saying and I do sympathize. However (the fact that she actually had to talk him into going on the plane aside), she could have notified airport/airline personnel what was going on. Had the Air Marshals known the situation, the outcome might have been very different.

[emdee]

99. I understand what you are saying....

but, please believe me, there are times that you just do what you can do and the sick person has to take responsibility for his/her own actions, imo.

It's a helpless feeling. AND, if he is anything like my relative, if she had talked to anyone without him hearing what she said - she would have been considered his enemy. Maybe she already was considered his enemy. They treat those who will help them horribly. Horribly. The woman probably is emotionally spent and probably was so before they got on the plane.

I know I am emotionally spent with my relative. And, it hurts. And, the family feels guilt but for all their effort in getting help, they only meet brick walls. To tell you the truth, after what we've been through as a family, you reach the point of knowing (not thinking, knowing) that "they system" is only there for the patient not the victims (I meant "family" but "victim" is what we are much of the time).

It's a terrible illness - one that families cannot always help solve but only help clean up whatever mess is made.

emdee

[sojourner]

174. I know your stance - but if she'd said anything he wouldn't have been

allowed on the plane in all likelihood. Your assumption is that the outcome in such a case would be better, which is not necessarily so.

You overlook that virtually NO help is available for mentally ill...hard to obtain what little there is. You usually have to be in your own backyard to have access to public assistance with meds (which are simply unaffordable without some sort of insurance). I'm afraid that getting him home ASAP was probably her best option - at least in her own mind (and I think I might have thought so too).

I commented below on incident where my (not) daughter-in-law was placed on airplane (pre 9/11) by the hospital in Hawaii. Unmedicated and delusional as hell. They flew in her brother to travel with her. I don't believe anything was said to the airline. They just called family to come get her and provided the tickets. So even trained personnel have made similar decisions. (She is schizo-affective, which closely resembles bi-polar disorder BTW)

You also assume that the wife might have had access to alternative forms of transportation. Like renting a car? Taxi? If his condition was deteriorating the plane would have been fastest route and she likely had her fingers crossed praying they could just make it home before anything happened.

And as he continued to deteriorate, it could have turned out much the same - except on some Miami street or hotel room.

It's just a shitty situation all the way around. And it WILL happen again.


edited for grammar/spelling

[bloom]

65. Since when do adults have the right

to tell people (spouses or not) with bipolar or any other illness what they can or cannot do. Do you have any idea what percent of the population has some kind of mental illness.

Yeah - let's blame it on the wife. :eyes:

Maybe you're crazy and should be kept off of message boards. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[emdee]

70. Families have no rights these days....

I understand that "way back when" men would drop their wives off at the mental institute and drive away happily with their girlfriend and so the laws had to change but it's so hard these days to get help for someone who needs it. Nearly impossible. Especially when the patient knows exactly how to work the system. I had relatives telling me that I shouldn't let my family member drive she was so out of it and actually dangerous. But, legally, I couldn't stop an adult woman from driving her car - or any other activity she in which she wanted to partake. It's hell on the family - their hands are tied.
emdee

[EFerrari]

107. Here is a group who are trying to negotiate the situation.

No, they are not in favor of tossing people into locked facilities but they are trying to get legislation passed so families can be more helpful when their loved one can't take care themselves.

www.psychlaws.org

[emdee]

115. Thank you very much for the link....

it could very well come in handy for me and my family.
Things are quiet now - but it's never for long.
emdee

[EFerrari]

122. They are very cool people -- most of them are themselves

dealing with their own illness but in a more productive way. There is a state by state listing of the laws they have helped pass. :hi:

[emdee]

129. I'm saving the link....

and will look in depth later tonight when I have more time.
This has been a rough year for us, to say the least. My dad and I were "enablers" we learned by allowing her to call us at any time day or night from anywhere in the country and off we would fly to clean up the mess and bring her back, only to face rage after rage after getting back. Since my dad was diagnosed with cancer, my sister (I might as well just say it: it's my sister) has settled down a bit but she's also a couple of hours away and so we might just not be "in the know" at the moment, which is my guess - and that's ok. But, I stay on edge not knowing what to expect next.
Thanks again,
emdee

[davekriss]

199. My heart goes out to you and yours

Remember to take care of yourself first. It's not selfish. You can't help your sister if you yourself become overly stressed to the point of illness.

[MercutioATC]

91. Did you read the entire OP?

Iven if she didn't have the right or ability to stop him from boarding the airplane, what prevented her from alerting airport personnel to the situation?


Actually, there's a report now that she talked him into getting on the plane:

"She said it was her fault that he was bipolar," said Mike Deshears, a Flight 924 passenger. "He was sick and she had convinced him to get on the plane."

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051207144209990016

[Cathyclysmic]

71. Good Point..but

The wife either didn't know hpw intense this cycle was, or didn't want to put up with people's pre-conceived notion's of mental illness. I think that was why she didn't say anything to warn authorities.

Also, I see alot of people asking why they would go on a plane without his meds. Unfortunately, there are alot of loopholes and even financial reasons why someone would be off their meds. It happens and life can't stop every time. Hell, I'm going to be off my meds for a couple days until payday. I wish it didn't, but it happens.

But even if this man said he had a bomb, did they have to shoot him FIVE times? Would it not be more advantageous to maybe use a stun gun and then ask him where the bomb was? I mean, this thing that happened on the plane sounds like an episode of '24'.

just sayin':shrug:

[MercutioATC]

131. I appreciate your question, but

stun guns occasionally don't work on some people. I wouldn't support using them in a case where there's an imminent threat.

[Cathyclysmic]

171. True

But five shots?! That is excessive, unless the guy is on PCP and is wearing a bulletproof vest.

[MercutioATC]

185. There were two Marshals firing. That three or four shots each.

Officers are trained to fire two shots at a time, so it's not really that many.

[Cathyclysmic]

210. Thanks....

I heard that latter, so it makes a little bit more sense.

[AZBlue]

74. I'd like to know more about her reaction - she yelled that he was off his

meds but who heard it? How loud did she yell? I'm not blaming or judging her at all. I just want to know if the marshals really had any chance of hearing her say this or if it was just the surrounding passengers that heard her.

To your point about taking him on the plane at all - I'm not pretending I'm an expert, but I do know something about mental illnesses and it seems that in his condition he either shouldn't have flown or the airline should have been notified - for his own sake foremost. Even if he hadn't had such an extreme episode he still could have had problems on the flight and if the staff knew in advance they could help out instead of reacting incorrectly. If it were my husband or family member or friend, I would be concerned for them and want them to have the safest and most pleasant flight possible.

One thing I noted in the thread that also make me curious - the quote where the wife says it's her fault he's bi-polar? I wonder what she meant by that? Did she mean to say it was her fault he didn't have his meds? Because there's a world of difference between those two statements!

[MercutioATC]

79. About the "It's my fault he's bipolar" quote.

I took it as a misqoute. "It's my fault. He's bipolar." seems to make much more sense, but who knows?

[EFerrari]

119. Which suggests that she was being traumatized as well.

That's another element here. How many days into this event are we talking about? If it's even one, that woman wasn't operating on all cylindars either. Being alone with an out of control person can be frightening and exhausting. After even a few hours, your own brain starts to shut down to protect itself. :(

[MercutioATC]

127. Agreed. That's a possibility, too.

Again, I'm not trying to place blame. I'm trying to suggest that there were decisions made before the incident that, had they been made differently, could have resulted in a better outcome.

[EFerrari]

153. The decisions you are pointing to are community decisions,

not family decisions. Let's run them down.

First, mental illness is the bastard child of our culture. Why do the airlines ask handicapped people to board first but never ask if there is anyone on the flight that needs "support"? Ignorance and stigma.

Had this woman notified the airline (and we don't know that she didn't quietly chat to one of the flight attendants, do we?) the chances are just as good that they would have been bounced as helped.

Second, mental illness is not confined to one brain or to one family. It doesn't stay under a roof. It has consequences for the whole community. But, at the moment, we rely on exhausted family members to do the heavy lifting or alternately, law enforcement. Neither is a tolerable solution and if we continue on this course, people will continue to die instead of get the world class tech that we have in this country.

Cops know this and that's why cops started this project: www.consensusproject.org.

[sojourner]

178. agree with this interpretation.

my fault (talked him into getting on plane) - guilt/responsibility

he's bipolar - explanation of his behavior

[AZBlue]

182. I just happened to look again at the article

I was actually looking for something else, but this caught my eye. The quote has been changed to: "'She said it was her fault, that he was bipolar,' said Mike Beshears..." which is very different than "she said it was her fault that he was bipolar." Maybe msnbc.com reads DU, LOL!

Didn't we all learn anything from the book, "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"?

[calico1]

80. I say arrest this woman and send her to

Gitmo! How dare she put the safety of the air marshall and the passengers at risk by taking her loony husband on the plane? Where is the personal responsibility? If your husband, wife, sibling or child won't take their meds the its your job to sit on them and jam the meds down their throats. If you can't be responsible, don't fly and don't bring your nutty relatives with you! I think the shoot first ask questions later is a good policy. It lets passengers know the air marshalls mean business! :sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

84. Nobody is suggesting that.

The discussion is meant to look at the decisions that led up to the incident. No need to get so upset...

[DS1]

87. Fine

The Air Marshalls did the right thing. This thread is fucking ridiculous. Oh waah, he's on meds, he needs help. He was on a plane yelling that he had a bomb. Two shots to the head, SAS style. Fucking done.

[MercutioATC]

118. If you'd reread the OP, you'll find that it doesn't say that...

"This thread is fucking ridiculous" is, perhaps, an overreaction.

[DS1]

132. The thread being ridiculous comment was directed to those

who seem to think that a man running around in a plane yelling that he has a bomb is going to have a change of heart after a nice relaxing talk with the onboard therapist.

[MercutioATC]

137. I may not agree with your delivery, but I agree with your premise.

In situations like this, taking the time to "calm somebody down" isn't an option.

[AngryOldDem]

81. I have to agree

Personalities of people who are off their meds can turn on a dime. Anything can set them off. I think it was irresponsible of her to take him on the plane. I'd be interested to know his behavior on previous times when he was not under medication.

I see people like him frequently on the job. Sometimes, if you've been around someone long enough, you know the signs when they are about to snap. But others can be perfectly normal at one moment and totally delusional (as this man apparently was) the next. I really can't blame the air marshal for doing what he felt he had to do.

[DS1]

86. I, for one, would have blasted him myself

twice.

[blue2helix]

94. You must be really Brave and Strong!

Such nobility and srength of charactor!

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blue2helix]

101. I'm glad for people like you!

Make me feel safe. Please protect me with your fantastic justified violence.

[DS1]

102. There's the problem

I don't give a shit about you, either.

[MissB]

105. .

:spray:

A fascinating exchange. Shall I welcome him to DU?

[blue2helix]

106. Hostile?

Are you a bitter hostile person? Sense much anger in you do I.

[DS1]

112. Shit I find much in you

:shrug:

[blue2helix]

114. Change background to Lightning & Thunder!

You should change your background to lightning and thunder!

It would look much more righteous and terrifying. Scare away all those bad people.

[sojourner]

180. obvious from the get-go n/t

[nomaco-10]

104. Yeah, don't you just feel better knowing....

people like him and bill o'reilly are looking out for us. lol

[blue2helix]

110. Maybe too Many Video Games?

Perhaps?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davekriss]

205. DS, you sound to me like a dangerous man

Please do not board any airplanes. Sorry if this infringes on your rights, but you sound a bit hair-triggered to me. ;)

I respectfully disagree with your point of view. The world will not fit nicely into your black and white picture. Note that I think we have here a tragedy, not a criminal act. But I would question why 5 shots were necessary while in the jetway. And I'd sure check out what the man actually said before expressing so bold an opinion (all we know right now is what the MSM reported as said, but the situation demands investigation before judgement).

I take it that you were 100% behind George Bush's immoral war, too? Bought into the first sign of imminent threat as mushroom clouds over Chicago scenario, did you? Feared anthrax sprayed over Kansas by Saddam's toy airplanes? We fired first, better for "me and mine" to be safe and f**k the other as long as he's not "me", right?

...law of the jungle... thank you for helping prove the validity of evolution...

[aura]

117. He was too hot looking to be shot...

Those air marshalls were out of line. dubya is to blame and his atmosphere of holiday fear. I hope the twins have a major hangover on New Year's day. And throw up all over Laura's bush.

The poor guy was slain in vain. It's an atrocity.

[DS1]

121. Mercury was in retrograde, and his aura was blue

There was no way he was going arrive at his Star-Charted landing zone

[Initech]

130. More importantly...

Who the hell allows an air fire marshall to carry a loaded .357 magnum on an airplane? Isnt this supposed to be one of the most powerful handguns on the market today?

[MercutioATC]

133. Ummm...that's part of their JOB.

What sort of gun would you suggest?

[DS1]

136. Perhaps a popgun that shoots florally colored streamers

and puts the target in a more festive mood :shrug:

[Midlodemocrat]

142. LOL

:thumbsup:

[davekriss]

206. LOL -- it could've worked, pop-gun with streamers!!

It could have flipped his mood!

[Initech]

165. I dont know but you dont want that thing going off in flight!

[MercutioATC]

187. Agreed, but that's why they're trained.

We're not talking about passing out guns to strangers at the door...the FAMs are well-trained in their use.

[DS1]

134. 9mm rounds have crappy stopping power

When you shoot someone yelling that they have a bomb, you don't want to give them time to realize they've been shot and trigger it. You want them dead on their feet.

[sojourner]

141. don't be so quick to judge...

the mother of my grandson (loved like a daughter-in-law) had her first "psychotic break" when she was in Hawaii. I had to fly over and get my grandchild from foster home where he spent one night after she was admitted. The hospital in Hawaii kept her two weeks, then called and said they thought she needed to be back closer to her family (they/we all lived in same area) -- she was unmedicated and delusional but they popped her onto an airplane (her brother flew over to ride back with her).

Treatment of mental illness in this country is despicably below any standard for human care that it is maddening. Oh I know...there's been improvement. And don't forget that the mentally ill (right or wrong - not for me to decide) have the RIGHT to refuse medication. So I think everyone -- law enforcement, the mentally ill, the families of the mentally ill -- are between a rock and a hard place.

[MercutioATC]

152. I'm not judging, I'm questioning if decisions made BEFORE he lost it

had been made differently, could the outcome have been different (I believe so).

[DoYouEverWonder]

143. You sure have a fixation about this woman?

or have you just lived a charmed life and have never had to deal with anyone with mental illness? The answers are no where near as easy as you make think? Once again, she's not the one who pulled the trigger. That is the person whose actions need to be questioned, not this poor woman.

[MercutioATC]

148. Not at all.

I'm just suggesting that some decisions made before the incident may have contributed to the outcome.

[athena]

209. I think it's the "blame the woman" syndrome.

Our lives suck, and we blame our mothers. A woman who can't swim doesn't risk her life to save her boyfriend's drowning kid, and she gets put in jail while the father goes free. Martha Stewart goes to jail, and the Enron people roam free for years. Both Judith Miller and Matt Cooper refuse to reveal their sources, and Judith Miller is the only one vilified, even here. Look at the level of hate directed at Hillary Clinton.

Women are always the ones who get blamed. I strongly doubt there would be a similar thread if the roles had been reversed.

[SoCalDem]

146. The need to "get home" can sometimes cloud judgement.

She might have thought, "this trip is almost over...it's just a short hop and we're home"..

I have flown before when I was on pins and needles, just praying to get there.. not due to mental illness, but due to a sick child. Our son was a patient at Mayo Clinic, and I had to get him to Rochester in a hurry due to post op complications.. he was about 3 at the time, and the doctor in Colorado advised me to fly to Mayo Clinic ASAP with him. He was in quite a bit of discomfort, so the pediatrician basically drugged him, and we headed for Minnesota by air.. I was so afraid that he would get worse on the flight, but if we had "alerted' the crew, they would have never let us fly.. (It was not a life-threatening situation...just a case of not wanting some local doctor to go monkeying around with him).. That was the longest 7 hours of my life.. (We had to change planes twice)...

[RB TexLa]

158. Themselves, there is nothing to prevent them from buying airline tickets

[MercutioATC]

159. In THIS case, there was another person involved.

One who, apparently, actually talked the man into getting on the airplane.

[goodhue]

170. Who leaves a biopolar man who's off his meds in Columbia?

Bipolar folks not on meds are not uncommon and certainly fly on planes just like other folks.

[MercutioATC]

188. Yes, but it's (obviously) a crap shoot.

In this case the man was already upset when he boarded the plane. That's not a good position to start in.

Hey, if this can serve as a lesson to some, perhaps that's the most positive thing that can be taken from this unfortunate episode.

[progressivebydesign]

173. The widow actually apologized.. FWIW..

She said it was her fault for taking him on the plane knowing he hadn't had his meds. I also read that she was screaming "my husband my husband" in spanish... but was unable to communicate what the situation was in time. She convinced him to get on the plane, and she is beside herself with guilt over this... I think that she accepts her part in this. From my experience, it looks as though the man was off his meds and was afraid to get on the plane, she convinced him, and he used the running and screaming and saying he had a bomb as a way to get off the plane... In his mental state I'm sure he had no concept that air marshalls would shoot him.

My first plane trip (almost) when I was in my thirties.. I was VERY nervous and bolted from the medium sized plane before they closed the door.. and took off toward the airport door, across the tarmac. I realize that now I could have been shot for that, as I was pretty freaked out. Odd thing was is that my boyfriend at the time had a temper tantrum on the tarmac, screaming and jumping up and down.. and the airport personnel asked ME if I wanted them to call security. What would have happened if that went on today?

I say, the widow has enough guilt over this... and realized she made a mistake. Let it go.

[EFerrari]

176. There but for the grace of Something. n/t

[goodhue]

213. link?

She said it was her fault?
She was speaking spanish, not english?
Can you provide a link to back up those ideas?

[goodhue]

214. Okay, I found account of her being apologetic.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/nation/13365357.htm

WIFE `APOLOGETIC'

In the minutes after the shooting, his wife -- who had apparently returned to her seat to get a carry-on bag -- tried to go up to the front of the plane. But she was stopped and told by a flight attendant to return to her seat.

''She was very apologetic,'' one passenger, Mike Beshears, told The Associated Press of the wife. ``She was explaining to us as we sat there in the row, she felt it was her fault, that she had convinced him to get on board, that he wasn't ready. He was bipolar and didn't have his medications. She felt like she was to blame.''

[Loge23]

177. Probably many people

To answer your lead question, it probably happens more times than we would guess.
The entire sad incident reveals several issues:
- Yes, armed marshalls (2 in this case) are onboard certain flights (that's a good thing)
- Our response to potential threats needs work. This could've been anything from a domestic argument, to a mentally-impaired (as opposed to emotional) individual acting out, to a claustrophobic attack. Should we be shooting everyone who ignores "STOP!"??
- Is deadly force necessary? Can this situation be solved without killing people?
- Why were the rest of the passengers brought out from the plane guilty? Is this the procedure? Everyone leaves with their hands up??

I do not blame the marshalls for doing their job. I do not blame the victim (or his wife) either.
It's a tragedy that could have and should have been prevented.

[NVMojo]

184. have you ever tried to force someone bigger than you to take his meds??

I worked in a psych hospital and we frequently had to put bipolars in four-point restraints, requiring at least two techs, to get a shot of thorazine or whatever in them to calm them down.

[MercutioATC]

189. Nope, but I sure as hell wouldn't convince one to get on a plane.

[AndreaCG]

190. I am part of a bipolar group

Some of us do not take meds yet are n danger to anyone.

[MercutioATC]

194. I understand that and I'm not trying to imply that ALL people who suffer

from bipolar disorder are dangerous.

In this case, however, there was a man who was already agitated, bipolar, and off his meds. He had to be convinced to get on the plane by his wife. I'm just suggesting that different decisions could have been made my his wife that MIGHT have resulted in a different outcome.

[laureloak]

198. Bipolar patients are not usually violent. Abe Lincoln and

Winston Churchill were both bipolar. Besides, a patient could secretly stop taking their meds and it wouldn't be apparent until something out-of-whack happened.

[MercutioATC]

202. Yeah, but his wife KNEW that he was agitated and off his meds.

That's my point. There were other options that could have been exercised.

[athena]

207. It is not clear that he really was bipolar.

He was having an argument with his wife when he got up to leave. His wife followed him with their bags, explaining to the other passengers that he had not taken his medication. Maybe she was embarrassed about the fighting. Or maybe she was angry, and saying he was mentally ill was her little revenge.

People who know him say that he did not appear mentally stable and was never aggressive. The passenger on the plane who saw him before boarding says he looked normal.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1973728#1974552
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1973728&mesg_id=1974485

Note also that the only people claiming that he said anything about a bomb are the air marshalls.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1974759

Furthermore, supposing he was really bipolar, "off his meds" can mean simply that he was a few hours late taking it that day because of all the traveling. Or, he might have forgotten whether or not he took it, and in such cases, it may be safer to wait until the next day than risk taking an overdose. People can also forget to take their medication with them on a trip. They can put it in their checked luggage, and then their luggage might get lost. These things happen when you have a drug you have to take every day for the rest of your life -- especially if the condition you're treating is not particularly severe.

[EFerrari]

211. His family members have confirmed that he was bipolar.

And at least one other passenger noticed that he seemed afraid to board the plane.

And there is no indication from anyone except the people who shot him dead that he was aggressive in any way. He was trying to get off the air plane.

This just adds to the number of mental ill people that are shot to death because law enforcement isn't trained on handling them -- or, hasn't been. Many PDs are now training their forces because it is a recognized problem nationwide.

[goodhue]

212. Anne Buechner

She happens to know a little about mental illness. Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership based in Towson, Md., a nonprofit organization focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness.

http://www.thecouncil.org/contact/102/anne-buechner

Staff Directory

Anne Buechner

As The Council on Quality and Leadership’s Florida’s Project Lead, Ms. Anne E. Buechner coordinates all CQL’s quality enhancement activities with our Florida partners. With more than 15 years of experience, Ms. Buechner creates opportunities to better support our partners and staff in ensuring that the people receiving services lead enriched and fulfilling lives.

CQL is the organization at the forefront of the movement to improve the quality of services and supports for people with disabilities and people with mental illness. CQL has been leading this effort for more than three decades. CQL’s fundamental belief
is that everyone has a right to a life of dignity, opportunity and community inclusion. CQL’s journey continues today with the daily work of establishing real connections between disabilities’ theory and practice.

Ms. Buechner works to maintain the vision of CQL through collaboration with our partners, support to our employees and through her public presence. Her focus remains enhancing personal and community quality of life for people with disabilities while strengthening partnerships to design, measure and evaluate creative, responsive and accountable systems of support.

Ms. Buechner graduated with a Bachelor’s of Art degree and has completed Public Administration Master’s Degree coursework at the University of Central Florida.

[goodhue]

215. Here is press release from CQL . . .

http://thecouncil.dreamhost.com/pdfs/CQLmediastatement120805.pdf

[Rich Hunt]

216. since when are so-called 'bipolar' people violent??

It used to be called 'manic depression', too. Now they're not using that phrase, even though it
is the appropriate clinical term.

However, I can't recall ever reading that people with such a diagnosis (as I have NEVER had) were -violent-
or should be feared if you're riding a plane with them...even 'unmedicated'.

So who are the real bigots against psychiatry and those who see psychiatrists here?

And why do they use such curious language and such inaccurate portrayals of 'bipolar' individuals?

Or is 'bipolar' another code the media worms use?

The DSM-IV says nothing about an alleged 'bipolar' person's propensity toward violence.
And now certain 'liberals' are playing fascist nanny and saying that anyone who might
be 'bipolar' (could be the old cop tactic, too - slander) should not be allowed to fly in planes.

I dunno - sounds like the logic of fascists - namely Scientology and the cops to me.

[stickdog]

220. Exactly. Hadn't she heard of the War on Terror Attacks!

Didn't she realize our country was already under marshal law?