Bi-Polar Guy Shot Dead On Airplane/ Innocent Brit Shot Dead In Tube

[stopbush]

Because some "well-trained" law enforcement officer got antsy, shot first and asked questions later. And we're supposed to think that the system is working???

[Ian David]

1. Freedom is on the march. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Got links? Got the whole story?

I could just as easily post about Jeffrey Dahmer "Man who sent Mother's Day cards executed".

I do not know the stories of which you speak, and so am hesitant to pass judgment based on a few words.

When did these happen? Where?

[MissB]

5. I'm not the OP

but the airplane guy was from a few hours ago. It should be in LBN and even on CNN's website.

The guy in the subway tube was months ago.

[unblock]

6. apparently he said there was a bomb and ran off the plane

and was shot after refusing to stop.


speaking as someone whose bipolar paranoid schizophrenic brother once announced that there was a bomb on the bus he was riding, i have to say shooting the one person who claimed to have seen a bomb is stupid, stupid, stupid on many levels. it's stupid if there is no bomb, and it's even more stupid if there IS a bomb as that's probably the most likely person to be able to HELP save you.

[Rabrrrrrr]

20. Yours is a very logical position!

Yeah, kill the only guy who might know where the bomb is...

And thanks for the link you offered below. I had't realized this was just breaking news.

[EFerrari]

38. When I saw this story, my blood just ran cold.

And, I hope I outlive my husband and this insane regime.

:hug:

[unblock]

10. link to an earlier lbn thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1971900&mesg_id=1971900

[rudeboy666]

3. I do not think that they knew he was bi-polar

Additionally, it appears that he was explicitly screaming that he had a bomb in his bag (thus different from the Brit case).

I could be wrong.

But If I am not, then this is a tragic situation.

[kitty1]

22. apparently his wife screamed out that he was mentally ill...

and not on his meds just before the shooting. Could they not have just tasered the guy.

[AZBlue]

24. I fully agree that would have been a preferable situation. However...

...if you are that marshal and it's your job to protect the other passengers and you don't have a taser on you, are you going to stop and radio for one or are you going to take care of the situation as it is right at that moment? Are you going to hesitate and potentially allow a bomb to go off?

Also, so far they've only had one passenger say she heard the wife say he wasn't on his meds. If that's the case, the marshal may have had no idea. If she did indeed scream it so that everyone could hear, well, that's another story! I hope they look at that angle.

[RedOnce]

4. Feeling safer yet?

[Poppyseedman]

18. Actually, I do. The system worked. Unfortunate for the man who died

Someone running down the center aisle of an airplane screaming he has a bomb in his pack?

The moment he reaches into his pack. He's a dead man.

..........or would prefer it be a real bomb and blow up the entire plane???

It is a no win for the agent

[Taxloss]

31. Good luck on that.

I attempted to rationalise the police position on the de Menezes case here on DU before it was revealed that the police were lying, and boy was that not popular among those DUers who are happy to imagine that Britain has Contra-style death squads roaming the streets and saying with the full weight of authority that the Brazilian guest worker knew that the 7/7 bombings were an inside job and was murdered by the state to prevent him spilling the beans, and the only reason that the Brazilian government declined to investigate was that Blair threatened to launch a nuclear strike against them.

I have the relevant threads bookmarked, if anyone is that curious.

[RedOnce]

35. "The system worked. Unfortunate for the man who died"

Sounds like a great system doesn't it?

There was no bomb, therefore I would argue that the system failed.
Let's fix the system.

[athena]

45. I hate to disappoint you, but there is no reason to expect

that a real terrorist would have run down the center aisle shouting that he was carrying a bomb. This incident proves nothing but that an innocent person can be killed for behaving strangely on an airplane -- that's not comforting; it's disturbing and worrisome.

[WI_DEM]

7. need to know the whole story particularly about the bipolar guy

before making a judgement.

[cornermouse]

8. Hint: Avoid airplanes and the subways.

[unblock]

9. of course it's not that he was bipolar, it's that he was delusional

although the illnesses are often linked, there are bipolars without delusion, and delusionals without bipolar disorder.

main point though was he was off his meds.

[RedOnce]

12. Good point. There are many types of bipolar behavior.

[stopbush]

14. Yes. I had that in the original header but I couldn't fit the rest

of the header in the charcater count so I deleted the adjective.

I could have made that clearer.

[mtnester]

17. I have a family member who is on medicine for bipolar, and ONE

drink (I know she is not supposed to DO that but she does) can make her a looney tune.

One beer.

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. They impose the immediate death sentence on crazy people

well trained law enforcement officer my ass.
I feel a lot safer knowing that there are "shoot first" assholes flying around in airplanes.

[stopbush]

13. Question to posters: what was your first thought when you heard

about this shooting?

A. They stopped a dangerous terorist/drug runner/whatever
B. They probably fucked up and shot another innocent guy dead
C. Other

Just wondering. Mine was B.

[KG]

15. B all the way.

i mean, somebody running around yelling they have bomb is a common terroist M.O., right? :eyes:

[unblock]

16. "b" as well, but the way we heard the news was a giveaway

had the guy been an actual evildoer, the fact that he was shot would have been about the 3rd thing you heard about the story, not the first. the first thing would have been "bomb found on plane" or "terrorist plot foiled" or something like that.

[LostinVA]

19. B. I thought it was probably another London Underground

What's coming out (in the LBN thread) makes me realize I was partyl;y right.... *sigh*

[Solly Mack]

21. B - my government doesn't exactly behave in a manner that warrants trust

so, well...I don't trust them.

[Larissa238]

25. C.

When I heard he was bipolar and not on his meds, I had a feeling that it was not what it seemed. I am bipolar myself, and I think that he was just flipping out. Maybe he had an argument, was mad, or something. If he was manic, he could have thought that if he was shot, he would have been fine. I think he just wanted out of there, no matter what, and so he had to run off the plane and go.

I think that its disgusting how they shot him even after they were told that he was mentally ill and not on his meds. He boarded in Miami. He had been through security. There was almost no way he could have gotten a bomb past them.

Besides, what suicide bomber brings his wife to die with him? She could be used to die with another bomb.

[Stockholm]

27. B.

n/t

[AZBlue]

23. Are you suggesting we get rid of air marshals?

'Cause if we do, I'm gonna be even less likely to fly than I am now.

The man ran down the aisle yelling, then got off the plane and was pursued. They told him to stop but he didn't and then reached into a bag. His wife was with him and said he was bi-polar and off his meds but it's not clear if the marshal heard that or not. Without more details, we won't know for sure, but it seems the marshal was acting based upon what he saw and the real threat that appeared to exist at that moment. It's a horrible tragedy and I feel awful for the victim and his family as well as the air marshal.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10367598/

[stopbush]

26. This reminded me of the CSI LV episode of the crazy guy on the

plane.

He was acting irrationally and tried to exit the plane while in flight. He was physically assaulting passengers. The passengers eventually took him down and killed him to protect themselves. It turned out that he had an undiagnosed condition of swelling in the brain that got worse under the pressurization of the flight. It made him crazy and he flipped.

All of the CSI's were of the opinion that the passengers did what they needed to do...until Grissom asked who was sorry for the crazed passenger who was in real distress. No one bothered to ask him what was wrong. No one tried to understand why he was acting stranger and stranger. They just assumed the worst and acted on their fears. He ended up dead. They ended up slightly delayed.

I know it's just a TV show but art seemed to presage life on this one.

[rinsd]

29. Art did not presage life....that actually happened.....

Not the swelled brain persay, but a man died when he freaked out and attempted to open the cockpit door. He was killed when he suffocated from people holding him down.

http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/features/2001_01_04/topten1.html

"The verdict is still out on why Las Vegan Jonathan Burton, 19, went berserk aboard Southwest Airlines Flight 1763 on Aug. 11. But after being subdued on the flight from Las Vegas to Salt Lake City, Burton became the first commercial airline passenger to die at the hands of other passengers.

The story goes that Burton­by all accounts a respectful, loving young man­was taking a relatively routine flight to Salt Lake City to visit relatives. Then, somewhere in flight, he lost it, kicking a hole in the cockpit door, then ducking his head inside and screaming, "I can fly this f­king plane!"

Terrified passengers finally held Burton down and kept him under control until the plane landed. Burton, however, died an hour later in a Salt Lake City hospital. Amid stories that some of his subduers stepped on his throat and jumped on his chest, a medical examiner determined that Burton's "immediate cause of death" was "compressional or positional asphyxia." Federal authorities made no arrests, surmising that passengers were acting in self-defense.

While a toxicology report found that Burton had used cocaine and marijuana in the past, blood tests detected no coke and only a little THC, the active ingredient in pot. Burton's family has not decided yet whether or not to sue Southwest Airlines. "

[athena]

46. I don't feel comfortable flying knowing that there may be a gun on board.

I don't care that it's in the hands of an air marshall; there should be no guns on planes, period.

It's much more important to test all checked-in luggage and cargo to ensure that there are no explosives. Does it really make you comfortable to know that there are air marshalls on board with guns who shoot innocent bipolar people, when the cargo has probably not been checked?

[Jack_DeLeon]

28. IMO the Bi-Polar guy deserved it while the Brazillian guy did not...

Clearly the British police fucked up, but IMO the Air Marshall did the right thing even if the guy turned out not to be a terrorist.

Being crazy and acting stupid infront of someone who is armed is a sure way to get yourself killed.

[stopbush]

30. Being crazy and acting stupid in front of someone who is armed

is a sure way to get yourself killed?

That's what they told us back in the 70s when we faced down Gov Jim Rhodes's goons while we protested Nixon's war, but in our case, it was 4 innocent kids walking to their classes who got themselves killed.

[Neil Lisst]

32. Bi-polar.

I did it myyyyyyyyy wayyyyyyyyy.

[Dark]

33. THE OFFICER DID THE RIGHT THING.

The man was shouting that he had a bomb, and was reaching into his bag.

The officer had little time to think, and he made the right decision.

[Curtis]

36. BINGO

If the cop had taken the time to psychoanalyze the guy giving him time to set off a bomb, all these people criticizing the cop now for shooting would be criticizing him for not shooting.

Monday morning QB's :eyes:

[RandomKoolzip]

40. Exactly. Thank you.

This ought to be the last word on this subject.

[leftchick]

34. Idiot face terror expert on CNN said this shows that HS works!!

:puke:

[MrSlayer]

37. You've got to be kidding me.

The system worked. Why isn't it the fault of the guy claiming to have a bomb? He is the one responsible for what happened, not the officer who was doing what he had to do to protect the other people. The mentality that some people have here that the cops are always wrong and the criminal is always innocent or right is disturbing.

[EFerrari]

39. I don't see DUers "always" siding against cops!

You know, we don't know what happened or what was said. We've only heard the official story. We haven't heard from witnesses and we sure as hell haven't heard from the marshalls because they aren't allowed to report.

Maybe we should calm the f down until we get the facts.

[MrSlayer]

41. I do.

And I didn't say all DUers, just some of them. There are some who will side against the authorities no matter what.

[EFerrari]

42. Sorry if I misrepresented your position.

There's a lot of reactivity on a public board, that's for sure.

As I have family members with mental health issues -- who would never tote bombs -- I'm sort of anxious to get a round picture of what happened.

[MrSlayer]

44. That's cool.

Yes there is a lot of reactivity and I am as guilty as anyone of it at times. But as I have no problem with admitting to when I'm wrong I give myself a long rope. Heh.

I certainly understand your concern pertaining to the man's condition. I'd hate to think he was just freaking out in another way and ended up dead for it.

Peace.

[ShaneGR]

43. Man screaming about bomb in bag, refuses to submit, reaches into bag

How is the marshall supposed to know he's not trying to detonate a bomb, that the man was screaming about being in his bag? How does a woman screaming that the man is mentally unstable and hasnt taken his meds supposed to make it easier for the marshall to not use force?

Lets recap:

1. Crazy man screaming about bomb in his bag.
2. Woman screaming that man is crazy.
3. Crazy man refuses to give up bag and surrender.
4. Crazy man reaches into bag.
5. Marshall makes decision that force is necessary, sadly, to prevent a possible bombing.

Nothing illegal in that, at all. What if the guy did have a bomb?

As for London, completely different:

1. Arab looking man (Actually Brazillian) is chased down in a subway that had just been bombed recently and is shot to death simply because he looked arab and ran away.


Big difference, huge difference. The two cant be compared to each other.