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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 08:36 PM
Original message
Tests Show Boys Even More Dumbed Down Than Girls
ERIC STEVICK AND SCOTT NORTH; The (Everett) Herald
Published: December 4th, 2005 02:30 AM

(Note: The Everett Herald is owned by The Washington Post and -- as a Post training school, is by far the best newspaper in Washington state.)

Boys across Washington lag behind girls in key areas of a crucial test that ultimately will determine who gets a high school diploma.
It is a problem that is showing up on the Washington Assessment of Student Learning. If the pattern isn’t corrected soon, the states’ high schools could be graduating far more girls than boys in 2008.

(cut)

“I think there is a lot more pressure on boys that it’s cool not to be smart,” (Gov. Christine) Gregoire added. “That is something that we need to turn around.”

(cut)

The analysis found that at many schools, the gender gap is wide, with as many as 40 percent more 10th-grade boys than girls failing the writing exam.

Overall, 60 percent of the boys in Washington’s high schools failed the WASL, compared with 54 percent of girls.

Full text:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5375711p-4861836c.html

Comment: For either gender, the percentage of failures is disturbingly high: further proof that dumbing down, like global warming, is a reality. But I will not attempt to speculate credibly on why the male failure-rate is so proportionately high: while there's no doubting the reality of the phenomenon, the analyses I have seen have been all skewed to support ideology -- whether of the right or the left -- and are therefore useless for objective understanding.

Not surprisingly the test-score failures (and the associated gender gap) is a phenomenon that has shown up in many other places, too: one of the many readily identifiable and documentable expressions of the fact even the most apolitical teens -- those who were often formerly the most vacuously hopefully -- are recognizing the American Dream is dead forever: that in its place is naught but corporate supremacy enforced by fascism, with abject serfdom for everyone who is not part of the oligarchy.

There was an interesting and very relevant thread on this topic on DU earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5515931



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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. We should have seen this coming in 2000...
Edited on Sun Dec-04-05 08:50 PM by mark11727
...when during the debates, Al Gore presented facts and figures, and * dismissed it all as "fuzzy math" --- and STILL nearly tied for votes.
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe This Explains Many Male * Supporters?
n/t
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. I was thinking the same thing
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. I asked a couple of kids about this and the girl said, "Uh-huh!"
and the boy said, "Nuh-uh!" and she was like all "Uh-huh" and he was like all "Nu-uh" and I killed them both with my shoe.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. keep em dumb and they become willing canon fodder. critical
thinking skills keep you alive.
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Spinzonner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I really hate having to clean that off my shoes
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. LOL ! (n/t)
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
49. LOL !!!
Too funny!!!

:D
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is not news
Boys have been lagging badly behind girls for the last 10-15 years. The gap gets wider each year.

Whatever stats you look at are showing widening gaps.

Boys get in trouble way more, fail way more, drop-out way more.

Girls are much more likely to graduate high school, much more likely to go to college, much more likely to graduate college, etc.

It's a bad trend.
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justabob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I spoke with a college professor about a week ago
...who said that the split male/female at university was 40/60 and widening all the time. I was surprised about that, and even more surprised when he told me that in his classes the split was like 30/70, and he is a science professor. It was an eye opener for me.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. Agreed. I'm glad Governor Gregoire seems interested
... in, if not actually doing something about it, at least taking note of it.

It really bugs me when people sanctimoniously blame this trend on the kids.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Has Nothing To Do With IQ, and School Testing Means Only So Much
I was on dishonor roll almost my entire high school career. I got suspended more times than I could count and was basically a social promotion. My IQ is 165 which makes me a genius.

My wife, on the other hand, was a straight A student. She graduated from college with a high GPA.

When it comes to common knowledge, book smarts, street smarts, politics, current events, news and otherwise, I run circles around her.

Even the other day we were arguing and she brought up how she was straight A and I was a horrible student. I said "yeah? what did those A's do for you? As a matter of fact, can you provide me ONE, just ONE piece of information that you can remember from H.S. that you now know because you were such a good student? Just One???" Well, she couldn't. I run circles around straight A students constantly. But it is because I have a high IQ, not because I studied well for test in H.S. of which contained such irrelevant crap most people can't remember 95% of what they got right on those tests 5 years later.

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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Such a charmer :) n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. no one is talking about the iq, except boys that have an iq of 165
are on "dishonor roll" and being suspended all the time. that is an issue

i have a high iq myself. and i didnt like going ot school, was too slow for me, and i didnt like being around groups of people. i didnt finish out school either

would have been good if i did. i did well, even though i didnt. i was lucky.

but i do see it as in issue in my boys going to schol. we embrace academics. we talk about the nation being dumbed down. and we see it in older nieces and nephews being proud of not knowing the difference between mexico and new mexico. i make sure my kids know, i dont think that is cute.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I agree with ya. It was just my response to an OP that seemed to want to
suggest that women are better than men somehow. At least that's the vibe I got from it, though lord knows I could be mistaken :)

Oh, reason I did so poorly is because I couldn't stand the structure, so I rebelled against it. I was also suicidal, depressed, and gettin the absolute crap beat out of me daily by my brothers and sometimes mother. But the biggest reason for my failing grades was refusal to do thinks I considered to be a waste of my time, such as most homework assignments. Like the rule that you HAVE to write out the questions and your answers. Well why? I would think. I know the answers off the top of my head! Why do I have to invest time and energy to write this crap out when if they just call on me I can answer it?

Oh, and testing. I knew what I needed to know, and thought the tests were a joke. In some of the classes almost every student would cheat. I refused to cheat. But I would make a mockery of the tests and answer the questions with wiseass answers. I still to this day remember one that made me actually laugh out loud as I was writing it. It was a question on a Fahrenheit 451 test I think. It said "identify hathaway". My answer was "It is the phrase used by the superhero Hath in the novel upon taking off for flight. e.g. Hathhhhh Awayyyyyy"
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. I agree with you..
Edited on Sun Dec-04-05 11:34 PM by PowerToThePeople
Public school system was so easy on me that I became a trouble maker for something to do.

Luckily, college was better on me.

edit- Queensryche rocks!
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
80. did your school literally have a "dishonor" roll?
That would be hilarious. :evilgrin:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. No LOL I made it up to compete with the obnoxious honor rollers
That way I could jump up and down too and shove the report card in their face and say "Woooohoooo! I made Dishonor Roll!!"

Ya shoulda seen their faces :evilgrin:

(I set the rules that dishonor roll was no more than one "D" and the rest F's. Course, I was proud of it then, not so proud of it now of course)
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Before around 1980, girls tested better in lower grade school and then
got dumb. People think it was because back then you couldn't be smart and get a husband. Or at least look smart. With women's right becoming more of a reality and there being less discrimination against girls in schools, I can see where the trend would stay throughout the school years. But for 54-60% to fail is unreal real. Why does hardly anyone seem to care? Education of children should be the #2 priority behind defense (real defense).
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justabob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Sports
Edited on Sun Dec-04-05 09:28 PM by justabob
the prof I mentioned upthread said that because of girls participating in more and more sports they were gaining more confidence and handling the trials of high school/college and the work place better. I don't know if I agree, but it made a certain amount of sense.

on edit: it doesn't explain why boys are doing worse though
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. If you ask teachers why boys are doing so much worse
the last 20-25 years, an obvious answer is that there are so many boys growing up in homes without fathers. Talk to teachers and ask them why their students are doing poorly and they'll point you right to the family structure.

Another big change is the disappearance of men from the elementary schools. When I grew up (60's - 70's) there were not many male elementary teachers, but the assistant principal and principal were always men.

Today,even the few male teachers are pretty much gone and now the assistant principal and principal are likely women too. In some elementary schools the only men are the janitors.

This can have bad results for the boys.It's known that in general boys and girls learn differently. Boys need to touch more, move more. Girls are better at sitting and listening. So what are schools doing today?

Getting rid of recess, reducing PE, putting zero tolerance rules for touching and running around. And what about the boys who just can't sit still?

Problem solved through one simple pill a day. It's a crime what we're doing to our boys with behavior-modifying medications. Someday we'll find out what the side effects are.

A quick example from my own life. I was a superstar student. Never gave anyone a bit of trouble. So one day in the fourth (?)grade I was sitting at my desk in the back row whittling my pencil sharper with my pocketknife. I had recently earned my Cub Scout tote badge allowing me to carry a pocketknife.

Well I remember Ms Napolitano jumping out of her skin and shrieking when she saw me (memory of ten year old from 35 years ago)and while I was explaining that I was authorized to carry the knife, I was pulled down the hall to the Principal's office.

I can still remember the terror, tears flowing that I felt being dragged down to the office, and the relief when Mr Gricci leaned back, said "so you got your tote card," and gave me back the knife. He told me I shouldn't take it out in class anymore because it bothers the teacher.

What would have happened to me today? Suspension for how long?

To me as a fourth grader, that one man in the line of authority meant all the difference in the world. If it happened today I would have been in the newspaper and suspended.

There are some serious problems going on with boys and most school districts haven't caught on to it yet. While girls are outnumbering boys going to college sometimes by 20 %, local districts are trying to think of programs to encourage girls to go on to college.



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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #32
83. Doesn't Make Sense That Divorce Would Make Boys Dumber / Girls Smarter
Bad homes affect both genders.

But the latter part of your post makes a point worth listening to.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Why do we always take this at face value
and never question the test itself?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. so what are you saying? n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I would want to see the test
and look at its validity and reliability before assuming we can trust the results.

So many of these news items about tests have a lot of holes in them.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Having been a print journalist in this country since 1956...
(not always continuously -- time out for an Army enlistment, five years of college spread out over three decades and several years of blue-collar jobs -- but nevertheless far more time as a reporter or editor than anything else), I am absolutely convinced the dumbing-down of America and the American shift to the right are statistically parallel and cause-and-effect related.

The methodical dumbing-down began in the McCarthy era in response to the observation that the more genuinely educated one was, the more one was likely to be a socialist (if not an outright Communist) -- to the extent that nearly all intellectuals, whether in the U.S. or elsewhere, were socialists, and most were Marxists as well. The corporate powers-that-be thus concluded the best ways to combat socialism are to discredit intellectuals and dilute education itself: i.e., dumbing down.

Hence both the steady decline in test scores (first noted on the results of exams for National Merit Scholarships, state regents' scholarships and college boards/ scholastic aptitude tests in general) and the parallel decline in national literacy: the latter so dire the Reagan Administration had to revise the definition of literacy to conceal the fact half the U.S. population is functionally illiterate.

As the dumbing down has continued, so has the shift further to the right. I believe if one were to correlate test scores and election results over extended periods and show the results in tabular form, the parallel (which by itself does not prove cause and effect) would be obvious. But that would open the door to more focused studies that would prove cause and effect: note how some polls already correlate lack of education with fascist political values and theocratic religious preferences.

Not that detailed studies of such a topic would ever be allowed...

(Am rushing out for a barber appointment; my apology for any hasty typos.)

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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. An excellent analysis, newswolf56
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. A few points...
...First, in regards to "the extent that nearly all intellectuals, whether in the U.S. or elsewhere, were socialists, and most were Marxists as well." Were they really all active and zealous socialists or was it that they were simply more tolerant of various philosophies rather than reflexively eschewing any differing worldview? I could see how right wing reactionaries would likely lump them together.

Secondly (on a lighter note), "...note how some polls already correlate lack of education with fascist political values and theocratic religious preferences." Those of us in the Deep South have known that truism for a long, long time.

Third, I'm stil not convinced the "dumbing down" is so much a complex long-range plot as it is a matter of circumstance exploited for short-term material gain. Rather, mental laziness seems to me to be the cultural equivalent of a biological axiom, that the easier any animal "has it," the less selected for fitness they become.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. Complaints about the deterioration of U.S. public education began...
with Sputnik I in 1957, when a number of authoritative studies showed the educations received by U.S. high school students were markedly inferior to the educations received by their contemporaries not only in the Soviet Union but throughout Europe and Asia: a process of deterioration that apparently began immediately after World War II. Based on everything I have seen and read (and I have covered a number of major education stories over the years), the JFK-era emphasis on science and mathematics briefly retarded the deterioration (and actually began a process of restoring academic excellence to English, social studies and other languages too).

It seems to me -- because I think I remember writing about it -- this was even reflected in a brief upward trend in college-entrance exam scores during the period: "entrance exams" used as a generic term to include all such tests itemized above.

But the fear instilled in the corporate establishment by the advent of the Counterculture brought that beneficent process to a sudden and jarring halt, and the entrance-exam scores resumed the decline that had been noted after World War II and has continued ever since the Kennedy interregnum. This is confirmed by personal observation: one of the greater intellectual schisms I encountered during the years I was a college instructor was between students who had started high school before (approximately) 1967 and those who had started high school sometime after: those those who had started before 1967 could at least summarize the Bill of Rights, while those who had started afterward often did not even know what it is.

Personal discoveries and observations of this sort -- and I could list many -- long ago convinced me that dumbing down is deliberate. Not only that, but U.S. mass media has been afflicted by an exactly parallel process: a further argument against the notion the process is inertial rather than deliberate. But it is probably most often deliberate in the same way the aftermath of Katrina was deliberate: the establishment of basic policies which then have (predictable) results that can nevertheless be dismissed as random.

However I believe there is also a process of dissolution at work here too -- rather the intellectual opposite of genetic drift (in that it weakens the species rather than strengthens it) -- and that is of course wholly accidental: one example is the gravely worsening ignorance of mathematical process resulting from dependence on electronic calculators. Another is the near-total ignorance of celestial navigation resulting from dependence on Global Positioning Satellites (GPS) systems -- such techniques (and the principles underlying them) should be taught as an intellectual exercise even if they seem redundant.

Addressing your first point last, I probably should have been been a bit more specific. The fact I wasn't is merely a reflection of my lifelong refusal to give into the notion the terms "socialist" or even "Marxist" are even faintly pejorative. But you are correct: the U.S. right -- McCarthyite to the core (and rabidly so) -- did indeed claim that all intellectuals, whom they belittled as "eggheads" are either Communists or "fellow travelers." Personally speaking, every "real" intellectual I've ever known has been a socialist, and more than a few have been Marxists, though only one was ever a genuine Communist, and that only during the 1930s. Statistically speaking, this is much more true in Canada and in Europe, with polls to confirm it. The term "socialist" hasn't been commonly used in such polling here in the U.S. for many years, but self-definition as a member of the "left" (which admittedly could mean many things) is the norm among both our academics and our individual journalists -- especially when they can respond anonymously.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. I started high school in 1967
and I most definitely know what the Bill of Rights is.

My sister started high school in 1969. She went on to an Ivy League school and graduated with honors. She also is aware of the Bill of Rights.

My son started high school in 1993. Yep, he's got the Bill of Rights down too.

And I have taught literally hundreds of kids since 1980 who also know all about the Bill of Rights because I TAUGHT THEM ABOUT IT.

But let's post crap on DU making this ridiculous 'dumbed down' argument because . . . well, because we can, I guess.

I am not even going to start in on my calculators are not destroying Math lecture. It is past my bedtime and I must be bright eyed and bushy tailed for my students tomorrow. I wouldn't want to dumb them down, no siree. :eyes:














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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Apropos the dumbing down you dismiss as "ridiculous":
I spend two weeks out of every month researching and writing reports to help our oldest, most impoverished and therefore most vulnerable citizens defend themselves against savage cutbacks in social services -- cutbacks selfishly imposed by our ever-more-ignorant and therefore ever more fascist electorate: voters so grotesquely benighted they cannot even grasp the basic fact they too will someday be elderly.

Since I covered social issues throughout my newspaper and magazine career -- even more deeply than I covered education issues (for which I actually won more awards) -- I know all too well how the methodical, 37-year destruction of the U.S. social safety net closely parallels the burgeoning ignorance of the citizenry.

It's tragic that journalists and teachers -- people who should be united in purposeful solidarity (and indeed are so united most everywhere else) -- are here in America almost always adversaries. It was not always so. It's revealing, too: yet another example of how the oligarchy maintains power by keeping us all at one another's throats.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. And how sad that one as bright as you appear to be
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 11:14 AM by proud2Blib
is falling for the education is being dumbed down argument. Sure, education has changed to meet the new challenges of our culture. But does that mean we teach less or teach less well? Of course not.

The calculator is a good example. They aren't forcing kids to be worse mathematicians. There is a lot of mathematical thinking necessary to use a calculator. If you don't believe me, hand one to an 8 year old and watch him try to figure it out.

Another complaint I often hear is that we don't teach kids to write in cursive like we used to. But think about it - when was the last time you actually picked up a pencil and wrote in cursive? I am typing this response to you. Keyboarding skills are much more important for today's kids than cursive handwriting. And printing is a much more relevant skill than cursive writing in our 21st century world. I teach my students how to write their names in cursive and spend the rest of the time on keyboarding. Yet, some would refer to this as 'dumbing down'.

The truth is we have standards (that we did not have even 10 years ago) and a curriculum full of rigor that emphasizes critical thinking and problem solving. The 5th graders in my school district are required to do a 5 page research paper. 5th graders! I never wrote anything longer than a page until I was in junior high (and I went to excellent schools).

Every kid in my elementary school has a required list of 25-30 books that must be read every year. And we make them write extensive book reports. THAT is NOT dumbed down teaching.

As I type this, a 5th grader is sitting next to me burning CDs. He is typing the song list now. Then he will create a folder of his music and save it to the computer. Could you have done that in the 5th grade? Yet, some say our schools are dumbed down?

The world is a completely different place than it was when you and I were kids. Schools have had to change to prepare kids for life in this new world. And we have indeed met that challenge.

Now I agree about the cuts in social programs but I don't see how that relates to this conversation. The cuts do make the schools' role even more important and more difficult, however.

This dumbed down education is a RW talking point. The more they build public sentiment against public schools, the easier it will be to promote vouchers. Their agenda is to destroy public education. Don't buy into it.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #54
72. We disagree on several points. I will address only three:
(1)-To dismiss concern over the undeniable and statistically proven worsening ignorance of the U.S. citizenry as a "right-wing talking point" is to ignore not only historical fact but to insult the bravery of those who dared speak up against the intellectually deadly American mode of public education during the post-Sputnik but still venomously McCarthyite 1950s.

In truth we were anything but "right wingers" -- I was in fact branded a "fellow traveler" and a "com symp" (and at least once even a "Commie subversive") because (having received the rudiments of a classical education thanks to my father's library, plus an academically excellent public school in Michigan and an even more academically excellent parochial school in Tennessee), I dared argue on behalf the Soviet (European) mode of education.

Employing the parlance of the time, this was a clash between supporters of the acknowledged purpose of U.S. public education -- to produce "well-adjusted" citizens -- and those of us who instead subscribed to the Soviet/European/Asiatic (and specifically Marxist) purpose of developing the intellect.

As I said and wrote in those years more times than I can count: "'well adjusted' doesn't get us into outer space; if Sputnik forces us into curriculum reform, it will be the best thing that ever happened to the United States." Alas...

It is hugely ironic to hear such advocacy denounced as an effort to "destroy public education" when it was in fact its diametrical opposite: an impassioned effort to save public education from the (corporate/reactionary/fascist) forces that were truly destroying it. That we were would-be destroyers is precisely the denunciation voiced by the hard right during those years and well into the 1970s -- not just the Republican Party (the fascist core of which had been resurrected by Eisenhower/Nixon and fanned into full witch-burning conflagration by McCarthy) but also the John Birch Society (chiefly in the person of MOTOREDE {about which more in a footnote below}), and, in the South, the White Citizens Councils and even the Ku Klux Klan. North, South, East and West, we education critics were out to "subvert public education in the name of godless Communism" and "defeat America by destroying American schools" -- or so said the rightists' froth-at-the-mouth spokespersons.

Indeed -- then as now -- well-intentioned efforts at desperately needed reform are silenced by such accusations. Contrary to the denunciations hurled by their opponents (whether left or right), school reformers want just what we say we want: better public schools. Too bad "reform" is now being Orwellianized into a synonym for "destroy" -- yet another symptom of dumbing down, and one that (probably not coincidentally) allows the would-be destroyers of public education to hide within reformist ranks and thereby escape the very exposure that would quickly nullify their cause.

(2)-Knowledge of technology, which you cite above, is not the same thing as knowledge of ideas, ideals and principles. The former is merely a variant of knowing how to throw a switch; the latter requires abstract thinking, the refinement of reasoning processes, and the development of ability for synthesis -- linking one fact to another -- all of which is available only in (or through) the realm of books: history, literature, philosophy, visual and musical arts, etc. Learning how to throw a switch does not teach one to think. But learning how to think will certainly enable one to cope with the switch when it's time to turn on the lights.

My citation of the electric-calculator and GPS examples was not, however, to belittle the thought-processes involved in their use. It was rather to point out the grave error in becoming so dependent -- a point about which I was regrettably unclear. I have witnessed first hand what happens when computer failure forces super-market check-out clerks to make change by the "old-fashioned" (count backward) method: most are literally helpless -- not only do they lack knowledge of the technique; they lack the basic thinking skills by which their helplessness could otherwise be resolved.

The point is not just criticism of the education system; it is also that in a society so hopelessly dependent on technologies that are so intrinsically fragile, there should be at least some education in the basic coping methods before the technology was born -- not only for the intellectual exercise, but as a sometimes-vital survival skill. The United States is in fact the only country in the industrial world that stubbornly refuses to recognize this fact: as if acknowledgment of the vulnerabilities of technology is somehow tantamount to acknowledgment of political and economic failure. This pathology of denial extends even to the military: the same all-or-nothing dependence on technology that was one of the key reasons for our defeat in Vietnam. Other military establishments -- as up to date with GPS equipment as we are -- nevertheless routinely teach their personnel the ancient methods of navigation by stars and map and compass. We do not; in fact we sneer at such things. But when the technology fails, we are the ones who are utterly, hopelessly lost -- until someone (typically a non-American who therefore possesses the skills of reasoning and synthesis) finds an alternative switch and turns it on.

(3)-I regret that you as a teacher seem to take criticism of U.S. public education personally: this reaction by so many teachers is precisely another of the factors that obstructs reform and suppresses discussion of the need for reform. Suffice it therefore to say I recognize there are individual public school teachers who achieve genuine excellence in their classrooms. Indeed I have known several -- one of whom, in my long-ago high school days, had a profoundly positive influence on my determination to pursue a journalism career that had actually already begun: a fledgling career that, plagued as I was by hopeless poverty resulting from familial rejection, I had decided to abandon in exchange for the more economically accessible career of the professional soldier. Because of that teacher's influence I enlisted for only three years rather than six, and thus at the end of my enlistment, I walked into a full-time reporter's job on a larger daily: the direct legacy not only of reportorial employment during my last two years of high school but my teacher's encouragement as well -- encouragement for which I am forever greatful. But that wonderful teacher was later fired for her unorthodoxies (her unforgivable sin was that she put Dostoevsky and Camus on her 12th grade reading list) -- her ouster representative of a fate that has befallen far too many of the genuinely talented public school teachers I have known. Indeed, during the years I was writing about educational issues, some of those very teachers were my best inside sources.

_________

MOTOREDE: an acronym for "MOvement TO REstore Decency to Education." This group, a creation of the John Birch Society, was particularly active in the suburban Northeast and the suburban Middle West during the 1960s. Among print journalists, MOTOREDE was notorious for its campaigns of death-threats against education writers.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. What a wonderful post. Thank you. n/t
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
70. Fascinating thread-- your topic brought out very insightful replies
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 06:34 PM by omega minimo
There was a definite shift in education-- and the commonly held notion of what education is for-- during the “Reagan Era.” Since that time, we have become a much more, pardon the expression, mercenary society in many ways. A nation of spectators.

The destruction of the felt notion of the public trust and commonwealth is one of the big payoffs for TPTB and one of the biggest dangers for the public, IMHO.

Allow me to echo the following from your posts:

“The corporate powers-that-be thus concluded the best ways to combat socialism are to discredit intellectuals and dilute education itself: i.e., dumbing down.
.............
“As the dumbing down has continued, so has the shift further to the right.
..............
“The sullen refusal to acknowledge our country's dire problems -- all of them products of the ongoing corporate effort to suck the entire nation down a socioeconomic black hole and spit it out as the newest Third World-style oligarchy -- is unquestionably the greatest and most ruinous of the multitude of problems we face.
..............
“But the vast majority of U.S. students are not educated at all: they are merely brainwashed to be compliant little corporate automatons --allowed only the most minimal knowledge and given maximal conditioning and practice in vital corporate-workplace reflexes like conformity, back-stabbing, brown-nosing, ratting out "trouble-makers" and absolute obedience to authority.”

:rofl: ...hence the mid-90’s popularity of “Who Moved My Cheese?”

Also, for those who don't feel they are "compliant little corporate autmatons" there remains the problem of the "spectator society." Many "well-educated," well-meaning folks who will sit and watch a crime or other tragedy through the window or the windshield or the sunglasses and not do anything.
...........
“But the fear instilled in the corporate establishment by the advent of the Counterculture brought that beneficent process to a sudden and jarring halt, and the entrance-exam scores resumed the decline that had been noted after World War II and has continued ever since the Kennedy interregnum.

:shrug: “interregnum”? I’ll have to look that up. But I can grok the CONTEXT!!!!!
.........
“...dumbing down is deliberate. Not only that, but U.S. mass media has been afflicted by an exactly parallel process: a further argument against the notion the process is inertial rather than deliberate. But it is probably most often deliberate in the same way the aftermath of Katrina was deliberate: the establishment of basic policies which then have (predictable) results that can nevertheless be dismissed as random.”

:evilfrown: And that dumbing-down and dangerous dis-association created the lack of American outrage over blatant genocide on TeeVee. These are the tests that Americans fail to pass over and over and over-- every subsequent time they know they can go FURTHER via MORE "basic policies which then have (predictable) results that can nevertheless be dismissed as random.”
........
“Another is the near-total ignorance of celestial navigation resulting from dependence on Global Positioning Satellites (GPS) systems -- such techniques (and the principles underlying them) should be taught as an intellectual exercise even if they seem redundant.”

And one dares not bring up the possibility that a grieving bride might experience spending the night with an honor guard and the casket containing her beloved, WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF A COMPUTER (or cameras).
.........
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Is there solid data showing that kids don't know as much?
Testing of students presents a bell-shaped curve every time. A small percentage of students will excel and fail, but most will fall in the middle. They are being compared to one another.

I have some questions:

1. How are students performing in relation to kids of the past and is there a pattern?

2. Who decides what goes on these tests, anyway? Have the tests changed with the times. Who decides what is important and what is left out?

Critical thinking skills should be valued above the ability to regurgitate memorized knowledge. We can all look something up, right? Intelligence is knowing what to do when you don't know what to do. In my opinion there are many kinds of intelligence. I'm not so smart socially and mathematically (is that a word???), but I'm very smart artistically and linguistically. :shrug:
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. No
The IQ tests are renormed every 20 years or so. Kids in America (and every industrialize country) are getting smarter all the time.

If a person took an IQ test from 1930 with the same grading norm they would be 1 or 2 standard deviations to the good if they were merely average now. Education really is better now.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. Yes, definitively so. The general knowledge components of the...
various college-entrance exams, and the general knowledge components of the Armed Forces Qualification Test (AFQT) have had to be revised downward several times in the past half century. Likewise the national definition of what constitutes functional illiteracy.

As I remember, the pre-Reaganoid definition was based on measured ability to read and comprehend simple passages of text, but functional illiteracy under this standard was approaching 50 percent, so the Reaganoids dumbed it down to merely the ability to read basic package labels. Seems to me U.S. "functional illiteracy" was thereby reduced back to something like "only" 15 or 20 percent.

I am dependent almost entirely on memory here, all the more so because these trends are deliberately made difficult to track: both the government and the testing agencies conceal all they can of the negative data about the deterioration of American education and the horrific growth of national ignorance -- increasingly so since Bush came to power. But occasionally the lurking scandals explode into public consciousness via a handful of intellectual journals, or better newspapers like the publication linked above -- the only outpost of real journalism (i.e., journalism done with true Northeastern boldness and independence) in the entire Pacific Northwest: indeed The Herald is increasingly the only paper in the state willing to undertake such vital investigations.

If you want to pursue the topic of the deterioration of U.S. public education further and on your own, revealing starting-point Googles include "american ignorance" and "declining sat scores."
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
51. yes there is
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Gee that site isn't the least bit
biased :sarcasm:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. does that mean the data is incorrect?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I wasn't the least bit interested in reading beyond
the first page. But later, when I have more time, I will.

It is very obvious that whoever created that site has an agenda. Didn't you notice that?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. you mean there are people who write things without having an agenda?
i find that hard to believe.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. With a good writer
that agenda is less obvious.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. But then there still is an agenda.
Which is something you seem to have a problem with.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. When it is about attacking education,
yes, I have a problem with that.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. pointing out the poor quality of US education is not "attacking" it
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Well I happen to know US education isn't poor
so I do consider this type of garbage an attack.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. It's a RW tactic
They have been doing this for years - skewing statistics, exaggerating problems or making them up, misinterpreting test scores, complaining about what schools are NOT doing, ignoring the good things education has accomplished, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

In the meantime, they cut funding for education and expect improvement. They pass legislation which is no more than an unfunded mandate.

The overall quality of education in this country is NOT POOR. However, if they can convince the citizenry it is, then they have an audience who will shout out for vouchers.

It is as wicked a plan as the plan to invade Iraq.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. I used to broad a brush
I realize that there are many schools and universities where the quality of education isn't bad.
But also i think that in many cases the RW has succeeded in lowering the quality of education.

If a school is run by a school board that sees fit to have creationism thought in science class, what quality of education can be expected from such a school?

And "No Child Left Behind" - is it underfunded or not? It's a federal program so it affects more then a few students.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. Nowadays, local school boards don't always determine curriculum
Curriculum is usually driven by state standards. Locals have little say. Perfect example is what is going on in Kansas right now. However, the district where I live in Kansas is ignoring the creationism standard and not including it in their curriculum. So we still have some rebels at play - thank goodness :)

Yes, NCLB is way underfunded. But I have hopes that is soon to be drastically changed or thrown out all together. I just read an article today about the rebellion nationwide against NCLB. It is a bipartisan fight. Many states are throwing up their hands and thinking about ignoring the mandates. So stay tuned - that battle could get interesting here pretty soon. (Believe it or not, Utah is leading the charge!)

And I think the quality of education in any school is more dependent on the people who work there - the teachers and the principal - than on the school board or curriculum or insane state board of ed. You can have an awesome curriculum and excellent standards but if your teachers are poor, the kids don't get a good education. The parents also play an important role. If they don't bother to send their kids to school or make them do their homework, their child's education suffers.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
55. My mom forever pointed this fact out to me
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 12:08 PM by StopThePendulum
When she was a kid, her school not only assigned the kids to grades, but also to classes commensurate to their pace of learning. The slower kids were assigned to one class; the "average" ones, to another, and the fast learners to a third. The teachers pushed the students as far as they could, although they may have been overbearing at times.

It was when my mom, before she even married, was on the bus on her way to work, when she ran into one of those new-school advocates of "progressive" (read: dumbed down) education. She warned her that the next generations of Americans will end up more ignorant than hers, and as God is my witness, she was dead on! People are far more ignorant now than then. All because the educational system listened to what my mother derided as "newfangled psychologists" more worried with kids' self-esteem than with achievment.

I was raised with a strong education ethic. My education was partly school-based, partly homeschooling, because the principal at the school said they couldn't come up with an appropriate curriculum to address my learning needs.

To conclude, I think some traditions aren't worth messing with. I say we return to the Depression-era educational system: kids should be able to achieve, even if it means sacrificing their fragile egos on the altar of a good education. Let's give "tough love" a whole new meaning.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. This isn't new...
a year or two ago there was a great book out about the new gender gap and how we're screwing up our young boys. Made the interview circuit for a few months, but I can't remember the title or author.

Anyway, the problem is that while we've been doing this great job of empowering our girls, we completely forgot how the boys fit into the equation. Seems the boys were left out of the new order, and kind of had to figure it all out for themselves.

And no one does a great job of it when left alone.

So, look at college and grad school numbers. Women are now outnumbering men in law and medical school. In vet school, they've been dominant for years. No problem at all that the women are doing all this, but the the problem is that pie is the same size. It should be getting bigger, but too many men are missing. And don't even START on the gap between minority men and women!

We've got all these great women's entrepreneur programs and women are starting businesses like crazy, but what about the men who aren't plugged into a network and have little place to go for knowledge and support? It was assumed they'd "know all about it" but far too many don't.

And so it goes...

Once again, we've done a good thing but found a way to fuck it up.





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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Here's my observation, and it may be an unpopular one. In fact, I'm sure
Edited on Sun Dec-04-05 10:03 PM by phylny
I'll hear some loud complaints. This is MY experience and these are MY observations, and I'm sure YMMV. Again, this is what I've experienced and I'm not saying that this is the way it is in every household.

With regard to how we're "screwing up our young boys" out of an education, or how we're not addressing their needs, I think as with most things, education and expectations start at home.

I'm the mother of three girls, and from the time each was born, my husband and I made it clear that their education was a priority. I asked them all to hold off on getting jobs outside of school because we felt that during the school year, they already had jobs: education and school work. We encouraged their pursuits, all three were involved in athletics and clubs that they were interested in, and we always discuss the reality of economics and the fact that they'd need to position themselves to be able to support themselves and/or their families. Although there are no guarantees in life, in most cases, education is the key to greater earning power.

They've learned to be self-sufficient. They learned to make their lunches, pack up their backpacks, and do a mental checklist to be certain they had everything they needed before getting on the bus. They learned to make sure their homework was done, and they did it themselves with no prodding or help from us the vast majority of the time. They did laundry at an early age, helped around the house, and shared in household responsibilities.

We did NOT have video games in the house until the kids were older, did NOT put computers and television sets in their rooms, and did NOT have phones in their rooms until they were in high school. At young ages, we made sure they had plenty of imaginative play and that their lives didn't revolve around passive toys.

Most importantly, we held them accountable for their actions, and made certain that we supported their teachers and that our children understood that the teachers were an authority figures that should be respected. We didn't bail them out when something was due and they were late, or when they forgot something. Their education became THEIR responsibility.

I add that part, because what I see many parents of boys doing is different than what we've done with our girls.

I used to work in a school system, then worked in private practice, and now work with very little children. In my experience, I've seen that many, many parents coddle their sons from an early age, and that coddling continues through to high school. They love their boys, and that's terrific, but they seem to be quick to point fingers at everyone else for "failures" or for something that their son did and cannot take responsibility for. There could never be any upset, never be any disappointments, and it was simply heartbreaking if their kid was sad or upset, and they "hate saying no" or "hate it when he cries."

When it comes time for school, and middle school, then high school, these sons are ill prepared, have been shielded from disappointment and responsibility, and everyone becomes perplexed at how it got this way. Video games and the computer have dominated many of their waking moments, to the detriment of imagination, reading, and interaction.

Expectations seem different as well. Many parents I've seen and worked with put their sons on a pedestal, and guard that pedestal with their lives. They laugh off bad grades when the child is younger, and then when the child is older, shake their heads and shrug their shoulders because they "just don't know" how to fix it.

We've lived in four school systems in four states, and I can unequivocally say that the quality of education that my children have received made mine pale in comparison, and I grew up in New York State during the time when our education and Regents system was supposed to be spectacular. My education cannot compare to what they've received.

So, while there may be "dumbing down," we surely haven't seen it in our experience. At least where we've lived, a quality education is available if boys and girls are willing to take the initiative and responsibility to avail themselves of it, and if parents hold their boys and girls accountable for their responsibilities. Before we start holding the school system accountable for failing the boys in our society, we need to take a long, careful look at how those boys are prepared to come to school and learn.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I don't blame schools...
but there seems to be something societal going on. Schools are only a part of it, and I suspect we are dumping far too much responsibility in them.

When I was growing up, none of us learned to read in school. we learned to read because our fathers read to us at night and we picked up the Golden Books and made the associations. We learned rudimentary writing and arithmetic, too, long before we went to kindergarten.

Things have changed a lot since then, though, and we seem to have redefined "education."


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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Yes, I learned to read at home, too. I played video games, but
Edited on Sun Dec-04-05 11:10 PM by Ladyhawk
not until I was in junior high. At that point, school requirements were very high.

I think I might have screwed up with my nephew by encouraging him to play video games when he was too young. He wants to be a programmer, but I sometimes wonder if he will be skilled enough. He gets good grades, but he's totally addicted to gaming.

Yet gaming with real people at an early age taught him tactics. He's better at tactics than I am. The kid was playing Descent online when he was five years old. Descent is a game that requires the pilot of a ship (first person) to master six degrees of movement: forward/backward; pitch up/pitch down; turn right/turn left; roll right/roll left; slide up/slide down and slide left/slide right. At age five, my nephew could pilot the ship and plan ahead to defeat online players. One night we ran into a guy who claimed to be a child psychologist. He told me that my nephew could NOT be five because his thinking was too advanced. :) Interactive gaming can teach some skills, but it might stifle creativity.

When my nephew got older, I tried to teach him how to build, upgrade and fix computers. This requires critical thinking skills when something goes wrong. I wanted to teach him how to think for himself, but he was always distracted by the next gaming session. :shrug: I guess I'll see how he does in the future. Thank GOODNESS I am not his parent. Then I'd have to feel more guilty. I was just the indulging auntie.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Your experiences ring true to me
I've experienced the same in both my professional and personal lives. It is common in all cultures, as far as I can see, to coddle boys. I'm white and it certainly happened in my family. But I've seen it in other races and cultures as well. The boy is favored and pampered, and less is asked of him than of his sisters. The boy never benefits from this. It is common enough across the spectrum that I am sure other DUers are familiar with it. Of course I'm well aware that ALL boys are not treated like this. My husband, for example, was raised very strictly with very high standards. Nevertheless, in my experience, it happens enough to help explain the statistics in the OP.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. But weren't boys even more coddled 30 years ago
than they are now?

Why the gap increasing now?

Personally I think the biggest problem is too many boys growing up in homes without fathers.

Not that a woman can't raise a perfectly wonderful boy on her own, but the statistics say it sure is harder.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. good post. i dont know that schools are dumbing down
i think media does a lot of that especially while the child is young. i wouldnt allow ed ed and eddie, spongebob, .... any cartoon where stupid was honored wasnt allowed in our house. wasnt funny to me

it is in the parenting. the expectations of kids. and never, never are they allowed to shift the blame. but the school my boys are in now, they have high expectations and demand from the children. i just love it. very academically motivated. smart is a good thing and valued and rewarded. the first school, private christian school, they did not place the academic demands on the children. they didnt push them. and in the "poor" public school, the average student took pride in being dumb. stupid was in. there wasnt much challenge for my oldest to be the top performer.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. And lots of uneducated boys and young men
is not a good recipe for a healthy society.

This is the group that can and does do the most damage through crime, drugs, etc.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. The Stress Test:
Edited on Sun Dec-04-05 09:41 PM by LWolf
by Nina Shapiro

Choose all that apply: (a) The WASL was intended to improve schools and pupil performance. (b) It's become an unhealthy obsession among teachers, parents, and students. (c) The WASL inspires alarming anxiety among 9-year-olds. (d) It's actually stultifying public education.

Correct answer: All of the above.

I prefer this article:

<snip>

The WASL is designed in large part to hold teachers accountable, so it might seem natural that they chafe against the system. Even more striking, therefore, is the discontent among parents. The state Parent Teacher Association recently surveyed its 146,000 members about how they felt about the WASL. What came back was an outpouring of passionate testimony against the WASL, much of it relating personal experiences. From urban Seattle to wealthy Eastside suburbs to rural Eastern Washington, parents told disturbing tales about the way the WASL had become the be-all and end-all of their children's schooling, producing crushing pressure and a narrowed curriculum. A representative comment from one Seattle mom: "I'm just angry about the whole thing and feel hostage to the system."

Lots more:

http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0547/051123_news_wasl.php

Those angry moms gather here:

http://www.mothersagainstwasl.org/

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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. The sullen refusal to acknowledge our country's dire problems --
all of them products of the ongoing corporate effort to suck the entire nation down a socioeconomic black hole and spit it out as the newest Third World-style oligarchy -- is unquestionably the greatest and most ruinous of the multitude of problems we face. It -- this stubborn and ever more angry denial of reality -- is also the reason those problems will never be solved: precisely why we will indeed become the oligarchy-ruled lockstep fascist theocracy some of us clearly see taking shape.

As to tests of knowledge, the objections against them are utter nonsense: allowing for differences in grade levels, a properly educated student of at least average intellect should theoretically be able pass any test so designed.

But the vast majority of U.S. students are not educated at all: they are merely brainwashed to be compliant little corporate automatons --allowed only the most minimal knowledge and given maximal conditioning and practice in vital corporate-workplace reflexes like conformity, back-stabbing, brown-nosing, ratting out "trouble-makers" and absolute obedience to authority.

This is not the fault of students. It is instead the fault of the curricula; the fault of the teachers; the fault of the administrators; much more the fault of the school boards and the colleges of education -- both of which are instruments of the corporate will -- and above all the fault of the parents, who a great many years ago (and entirely in response to McCarthy Era oppression) surrendered all their rights over public education and thus allowed it (like so many other aspects of U.S. society) to become yet another of the fluorescent-lighted hells by which the American Dream is being methodically replaced.

Eventually of course the corporations triumphed, and now the mechanisms for fostering ignorance are self-perpetuating: the kids fail the tests, which inflames the ignorant anti-intellectuality of the test-hating parents, which combines with the institutionalized anti-intellectuality of the teachers, and all of it together panders to corporate intent by making an already savagely anti-intellectual system ever more anti-intellectual.

Thus Americans today: collectively the most ignorant (and therefore bigoted) people in the industrial world -- fewer than 25 percent of whom can even place our own Revolution in its correct century, much less summarize the vital contents of the Bill of Rights.

Thus too the infinitely destructive genius of American public education: the tactic first employed years ago (when only history and civics were deemed politically dangerous) of choosing only the dumbest and most rote-brained teachers -- i.e., the coaches -- to teach these vital subjects, ensuring the learning process is tedious, miserable and singularly unrewarding, especially to the brighter kids: a tactic that has since morphed into a school-wide campaign to make all real learning so unpleasant and unfulfilling, it is despised by almost everyone, thereby guaranteeing an ever-larger crop of ever-more-exploitable workers who will despise even the most rudimentary forms of thinking -- reflexively denying themselves the first and most pivotal step toward liberation.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. Wow, newswolf, such amazing posts you've written on this thread!
It must have taken a lot of time - thanks. (It would have taken me *hours* to write anything even half as articulate - but since you've been in the news biz for so long, hopefully you're a much faster/better writer than most of us.)
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Thank you very much for the compliment:
I've been thinking and writing about these issues for many years.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
50. The best teacher I had, had a little placard on his desk,
every class asked what it meant..

It said. "Why must every hole be round, and every peg square"?

Then he would go on to explain, that instead of spending so much time trying to make the square pegs all round, education should be able to make at least some of the holes square:)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. Perhaps, when you said this:
Thus too the infinitely destructive genius of American public education: the tactic first employed years ago (when only history and civics were deemed politically dangerous) of choosing only the dumbest and most rote-brained teachers -- i.e., the coaches -- to teach these vital subjects, ensuring the learning process is tedious, miserable and singularly unrewarding, especially to the brighter kids: a tactic that has since morphed into a school-wide campaign to make all real learning so unpleasant and unfulfilling, it is despised by almost everyone, thereby guaranteeing an ever-larger crop of ever-more-exploitable workers who will despise even the most rudimentary forms of thinking -- reflexively denying themselves the first and most pivotal step toward liberation.

you were unaware that, while not a coach, I am a teacher, and I am not one of the "dumbest and most rote-brained." I'm sure you wouldn't have said that if you knew, because that could be construed as a personal attack.

I don't, and won't, accept the blame you've laid at my door. The students in my classroom are not brainwashed to be compliant little corporate automatons. I'm happy to acknowledge the many dysfunctions within the current system; for 23 years in public education, my administrators have known me as the "pain in the ass who won't stop questioning mandates." I can agree with the way you spread the blame, while pointing out that teachers follow directions from higher up when it comes to curricula and pedagogy. It's true that many teachers are more comfortable with the status quo; it's what they grew up with, what they know, and they don't all step outside of boxes easily. There are still many of us working hard to serve students in spite of all the problems we deal with on a daily basis.

As to tests of knowledge, the objections against them are utter nonsense: allowing for differences in grade levels, a properly educated student of at least average intellect should theoretically be able pass any test so designed.

Of course students should be able to pass tests of knowledge; teachers have been giving them, and students have been passing them, or not, for a very long time. The current testing frenzy is something different. Their purpose is not to measure student knowledge, but to assess teachers and to punish schools. Their design is suspect, the formulas used to come up with "AYPs" are suspect, and they are being misused. My objections to them are not "utter nonsense."

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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
77. With my #72 as a preface, a reasoned response to your #52:
(1)-To suggest that my comments about "the infinitely destructive genius of American public education" is material that presumably should be suppressed merely because it "could be construed as a personal attack" is a another (perfect) example of the dismaying phenomenon I was describing in 72/(1): the methodical efforts to silence education critics, whether originating from left or right.

Surely you, as a teacher of 23 years experience, must recognize (A), the historical truth of what I am saying and (B), the textual truth that reporting negative facts (e.g., Americans are demonstrably the most ignorant people on the planet" or "the SUV is the personification of the environment-destroying greed of the white American bourgeoisie") is not even remotely the same thing as a “personal attack”: though to claim “personal attack” is unquestionably one of the tactics of censorship to which I referred in 72 /(1). More to the point, the implicit threat of denunciation to the moderators is seen and noted. I have been battling censorship -- including censorship in its more devious and subtle forms -- all my life, and I have no intention of being intimidated to silence now: particularly when my defense is that what I say is demonstrably true.

Which brings me to that very point: the historical truth of my "infinitely destructive genius" statement (which by the way I think is a fine descriptive turn of phrase) -- the practice of appointing coaches to teach civics, history, sociology, American government and other such social studies courses. It was standard in most of the dozen or so U.S. public school systems I wrote about in depth (in Michigan, Tennessee, New Jersey, Washington state and New York City); it was standard in all but one of the states where I attended public school (Virginia, Florida, Michigan, Tennessee); and -- most significantly -- it was defended by school officials in most of these jurisdictions as standard practice nationally. It was also universally despised by all of the brighter students in all of the school systems that employed it -- a point on which I will elaborate as appropriate.

As college graduates we both know a physical-education major typically devotes most of his/her college career to competitive sports -- a curriculum of body-building rather than mind-building -- and almost invariably, as an expression of the "jock" ethos, has a hearty contempt for anyone who would commit to the latter. To assume that a self-defined "jock" would possess the knowledge (or even the intellectual instincts) essential to teaching the cause-and-effect relationships that animate history is like supposing Karl Rove could be transformed into a convincing teacher of humanitarian ethics. Such multipurpose job descriptions do both coach and students a profound disservice: they force the coach into a role likely to be uncomfortable at best, and they force the brighter students to endure -- in academic classrooms where they would otherwise be safe from it -- precisely the same muscle-bound anti-intellectual savagery and locker-room contempt they already endure in gym and on the school grounds in general.

Every school administrator worthy of the name knew this in 1957, just as every administrator knows it today: all the more so, given the burgeoning studies on the dire effects of bullying. Yet -- save only for New York City and two of the best school districts in Michigan -- coaches served as social-studies teachers in every school system I ever encountered. Significantly, the exceptions were systems that, for much of the time spanned by my newspaper and trade-magazine career (late '50s through late'80s), were considered to include schools that were among the very finest public schools in the United States. In these locales, school administrations (probably because of pressure applied by organized labor and left-leaning constituencies in general) adopted policies of hiring history majors to teach civics and history, sociology majors to teach sociology, physics majors to teach science, etc., with the result that the specialist-taught classes contrasted vividly with the coach-taught classes elsewhere: in the latter, you had rote recitation of names, dates and places occasionally "lightened up" by little tastes of locker-room humor -- humor that mercilessly victimized the exceptionally bright, the physically inept and the chronically unattractive; in the former, you had intense, passionate (and often eye-opening) dialogue and discussion.

Nor is this an obsolete issue. National media controversy -- controversy substantial enough to make it into the national media I read daily (i.e., The Washington Post and The New York Times) -- erupted again a couple of years ago over the fact something like half the nation's public school teachers are required to teach subjects in which they have no qualifications whatsoever. Thus the problem has metastasized far beyond the absurdity of coaches teaching history as if it were the statistical summary of some 2000-year-long football game ("Hitler's attack through the Ardennes Forest was like a well-executed wingback reverse") and has grown into one of the great malignant sub-crises of U.S. public education -- reductio ad absurdum, a modern-day behavioral therapist substitute-teaching in both English and construction-trades classes: "it's all in your attitude; we don't need to diagram sentences to understand grammar any more than we need to look at blueprints to understand the construction of a house."

Searching the Internet to find relevant links (many of which I had on my old and now dead computer), I was deeply troubled (though not very surprised) to discover that most of these resources -- including the full text of the bipartisan Congressional study that triggered the controversy -- have vanished, apparently down the Orwellian memory hole. Indeed in nearly an hour of Googling, I could find only this news link:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/1996227.html

Another example of something I noted before: the curious (and clearly ongoing) tendency for this sort of material to disappear from easy public access -- a trend that was a lot less evident in the hard-copy library era than it is today.

Based on the various school-funding fights I have written about, the coach-as-historian, typing-teacher-as-literature-instructor mode of staffing is mandated by budget constraints -- or at least this is what the administrators and the school-board members want us to believe. But the fact the practice has been so long decried, and the fact it is yet so persistent, proves that in truth it is an expression of legislative and executive preference -- and therefore the preference of the corporate interests that, in absolutely every school board in the United States, pull the strings from behind the scenes: just as these same interests pull the strings at all other levels of U.S. society. Thus -- particularly since all the dire consequences of this policy are well known (and have been topics of complaint for decades) -- it is eventually impossible to avoid concluding that the coach-as-teacher module is not only deliberate, but is specifically chosen for the intellectual outcome I described in my passage about "the infinitely destructive genius of American public education."

(2)-Though I do not typically use my own experience as a source of illustrative examples to support my conclusions on any topic, the fact remains that sometimes these experiences have been very eye-opening -- and thus lead me to explore a subject in much greater depth: an exploration in which one of my (often unspoken) questions is whether my experiences are typical. This was -- and is -- never more true than in my reporting and writing about education: during my public school days I suffered deep and still hurtful wounds under the enforced conformity of a Virginia kindergarten, the mind-numbing rote learning of a Florida elementary school, and the truly vicious bare-knuckle, jocks-über-alles Ku-Klux fascism of two Tennessee high schools. The above description of “little tastes of locker-room humor” is personal experience: skinny, clumsy, bespectacled and physically ugly, I was often the locker-room humorists’ favorite target. But I also flourished -- relatively speaking -- in the intellectual encouragement provided by a nationally renown urban Michigan elementary school and, years later, did likewise in a high school in another nearly as-excellent urban Michigan system.

I say "relatively" because, typical of the child who is despised by both of his divorced parents and most of their extended families, my grades hovered erratically around the mediocre even in the best of environments; my redemption (a kind of redemption ironically impossible today despite all the alleged emphasis on test scores) was my dependably excellent performance on I.Q., aptitude and competence examinations. Among other things, my scores were sufficient to overcome my lusterless grades and ensure me admission to the University of Michigan, a longtime dream fulfilled. Or so I foolishly thought; in an early, profoundly heartbreaking and even-now-bitter lesson about the absolute futility of dreams and long-range plans, I was soon permanently ousted from Michigan by still more family dysfunction: banishment back to Tennessee, which abolished my Michigan residency, required me to pay non-resident tuition if ever I managed to return to Michigan, and thus put the U of M beyond consideration forever. But at least in Tennessee, in the midst of a senior year that was otherwise utterly wretched -- the Ku-Klux fascists again -- random chance assigned me the English teacher I mentioned in 72/(3), with the positive lifelong consequences so described. There is much more to this; indeed I could write whole chapters on the influence of this teacher on my life. But to do so would violate my anonymity. Thus -- at least for here and now -- my generalized homage to her will have to suffice.

Point being, I have personally experienced both the bad and the good of U.S. public education, and while (at least in my life) the good clearly won -- and I have seen it briefly prevail elsewhere too -- the bad is not only as Shakespeare says ("the evil that men do lives after them") but is also far too often -- whether by inertia or intent -- the bureaucratic default condition.

The parents I have interviewed or known as friends tell similar stories.

One is sufficiently typical to retell on behalf of all: A mother and her two children were moved to Seattle, the victims of the father's corporate transfer from an urban state that ranked among the nation's most enlightened in public education. The daughter, an exceptionally bright high school student with substantial talent expressed in what was potentially a world-class photographic vision, had been performing at the upper level of an academic program that utilized visual art as a portal to the humanities and a close approximation of a classical education; the son, an exceptionally bright junior-high-school student, was inclined toward the sciences and was in an accelerated program that used mathematics, rocket-physics and the history of science as a portal in the same way his older sister's art program did. But the Seattle school system had no such programs; when the mother inquired, she was told it was official Seattle School District policy "to discourage intellectual elitism," and that if she had allowed her children to imagine they were intellectuals, she had best discipline them out of their "potentially disruptive arrogance" lest the children soon find themselves in trouble with their teachers and the school authorities in general. "Your children will thank you for it later, when they get out into the world," a principal told the mother: "Intellectuals aren't welcome in the workplace." Such was Seattle in the late 1970s, its McCarthyite hatreds lingering long after the fact.

Predictably -- bored to vexation by the oppressively zomboid atmosphere of Seattle's public school classrooms and constantly goaded by the rigorously enforced conformity -- the two kids got into ever worsening trouble. Desperate to escape school, the daughter got herself pregnant at age 16, kept the child, sunk ever more hopelessly into the impoverished underclass, and as far as I know thoroughly destroyed her own life. The son did only a little better: constantly flirting with petty crime, he nevertheless managed to stay out of jail until he turned 18, after which he joined the U.S. Air Force as a career enlisted man. Two fine exceptionally bright young people -- one a would-be artist, the other a would-be scientist -- their methodical degradation not only a perfect example of "the infinitely destructive genius of American public education" but unusually vivid proof of just how that degradation specifically serves corporate purpose.

There are nevertheless some exceptions. By contrast and during the same years, and entirely because of fiercely protective parents and unflinchingly dedicated teachers, a school system only about 15 miles away from Seattle braved repeated attacks by avowed John Birchers (and repeated school-levy failures spawned by the attacks) and nevertheless managed to pioneer and maintain one of the most controversial -- and best -- high school programs in the state: by at least one standard, also among the best in the entire nation. Called "individualized instruction," its core educational principle was borrowed directly from the interdisciplinary major/independent study concept developed by two of the state's leading colleges: individual selection of courses within a structure of demanding requirements; intense research culminating in reasoned hypotheses expressed in carefully written, copiously footnoted reports; not only "basic education" but opportunities to pursue certain subjects -- especially in the arts, humanities and sciences -- far beyond the limitations typically imposed by the normal one-size-fits-all high school program. This was a school I wrote about extensively and enthusiastically -- a place I spent several days monitoring its advanced classes, which were, just as its teachers maintained, like their college counterparts: both in the obvious knowledge displayed by the instructors and the intellectual quality of the in-class discussions. No coaches uncomfortably doubling as history teachers here: indeed this school was the west-of-the-Mississippi national leader in the percentage of certain kinds of academic scholarships granted its graduates. Again I would say more -- all of it laudatory -- save my concern it would violate my anonymity.

Alas, I am told the entire individualized instruction program has since been purged, its destruction -- bitterly opposed by students, parents and teachers alike -- a product of three factors: a conservative shift in district demographics (with the predictable increase in anti-intellectual malice); opposition from a tiny but very determined hard-core minority of teachers (motivated by their own anti-intellectuality plus a long-simmering and vindictive jealousy of the higher pay and greater freedom given the individualized instruction teachers); administrators' paranoid fears they were losing control of class content (once again and as always the anti-Dostoyevsky/anti-Camus factor that was my own favorite high school teacher's undoing); and finally the fact that of all the 50 states, none is more hostile to exceptionally bright children than Washington: in the most recent such figures I saw, probably five years ago, Washington was dead last in its educational expenditures for such students -- exactly the same place it had been 15 years before that. As Washington Gov. Dixy Lee Ray once assured complaining parents, there was absolutely no need to change anything: "the bright kids can always use the libraries." Right: just as les miserables could always eat cake.

(3)- If it was not already obvious, it should be apparent from the foregoing that I do not for a moment doubt there are -- precisely as you said -- “still many (teachers) working hard to serve students in spite of all the problems (teachers) deal with on a daily basis.” As I noted above, just such teachers were my inside-the-school-district sources many times over the years. But the sense of common goals that formerly so often united teachers and journalists has somehow been eroded to near nothingness -- an erosion in which (and it would be derelict of me to deny this) -- the treacheries of the amoral careerists ever more commonly hired by corporate mass media have sometimes played a pivotal role: another tactic by which we the workers are kept divided. Even so, teachers who are committed to excellence -- excellence that is typically achieved in spite of the system rather than because of it -- would advance their cause a lot further and faster if they recognize again (as the teacher who so influenced my life surely recognized during the post-Sputnik debates) that American public education's harshest critics may in fact also be the public schools' most faithful defenders -- and the public-school teachers' most dependable allies. That is, if those teachers' intentions are indeed as claimed.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Well, you've obviously mastered essays, lol
As I do have 90 students to greet this morning, I'll try to be concise:

I don't disagree with your larger picture; I've seen plenty of dysfunction first hand. As a matter of fact, my last administrator was a PE teacher before he finished his admin credential, and he never taught in a classroom.

I myself am "one of American public education's harshest critics," and, in fact a faithful defender. All the many people I've worked with and for, families, admins, and colleagues, over the last 23 years, would testify to this.

As far as personal attacks go, referring to teachers the way you did will put most teachers' backs up; we'll take it personally. We've been the whipping boy of the general public for too long. We're tired of it. One thing I've discovered, having moved many miles and a state away last spring, is that the status quo in one state does not necessarily fit the next. My previous state had a teacher shortage; they couldn't get teachers to fill all the openings, and ended up hiring too many people who were underqualified. My present region, consisting of about 5 districts, gets about 80 well-qualified applicants for every opening.

I see, in the personal experiences you related, a pretty typical scenario. It goes like this:

Schools and curricula are "standardized." It's always been so to some degree, currently standardized to the point of destruction. That standardization is what decides that there should be grade levels assigned to ages, what should be learned at each level, how much should be learned in a school year, etc.. Then textbook companies create textbooks to "cover" the standards/frameworks that make up curriculum, and teachers are suppoemphasis on standardized testing does.

You presented yourself as a classic example of the underachieving gifted learner. Public ed does not serve the gifted well, even with mandated "programs" for them. While IEPs for special ed, and other plans for gifted students when their state doesn't classify them as special ed, are supposed to guarantee that individualized instruction, the reality is this: class sizes are too large, and support staff too rare, for true individualization to occur. I have known many disenfranchised gifted learners whose grades in school did not reflect their true intellect and abilities. I raised 2 of them, as a matter of fact. In the classroom, I've done a decent job of meeting their needs; at least until the current standardization of every last moment of our day, to prep for the all-important standardized tests that are the guillotine hanging over our existence every day.

That's why I put up my original post; the issues of standardized curricula, instruction, materials, and the TESTS they teach to are further eroding our ability to serve the needs of individual learners.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Dupe; please delete. n/t
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 08:51 AM by LWolf
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. Great find!
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. The teenage boys I know are 100% clueless.
All they know about is Xbox and Paris Hilton.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
37. As a former college professor, I didn't judge my students' intelligence by
what facts they knew but by their attitude toward learning. If they had intellectual curiosity, liked to read, and sought out new and enriching experiences, I figured that nothing could hold them back.

But there were too many passive blobs, students who just wanted the highest grade possible while learning as little as possible. They didn't want to be educated; they wanted to be certified.

It was sad to hear students say, "I hate to read" or to admit that they didn't read a single book during a five-week winter break. It was discouraging to have world-class speakers and performers come to campus to perform before audiences that consisted mainly of faculty, townspeople, annoyed students whose professors required them to attend, and a very few students who were genuinely interested. They didn't want to take advantage of the affordable and accessible study abroad programs. They didn't want to associate with the foreign students. All they wanted to do was watch TV, play video games, party, or possibly spend 15-20 hours a week on sports practice.

I blame our pop culture, which has consistently belittled intellectual activity or made it seem suspect and become consistently dumber itself. The role models that are held up for boys in the mass media are either strong, violent, and non-intellectual (in the thrillers and fantasy films) or crude and callous (in the comedies).

The way boys are raised in Middle America these days reminds me of the passage about the Epsilons in Brave New World. They are the lowest caste in that hypothetical future society, and they are prevented from ever having higher ambitions by being forced to associate books (knowledge) and flowers (beauty) with painful electric shocks. We perhaps don't use electric shocks, but we use negative role models to lure boys into the "strong but dumb" mold and ridicule to keep in line those who don't conform.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Our society is essentially raising a bunch of redneck warmongers...
...in the image of - W...
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Baconfoot Donating Member (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. I would add that "it" also belittles teachers.
Many students want the grade to come without the associated apprehension of material. In particular, they want the grade to come without any work done on the part of them.

And if they don't get the grade despite a lack of attending class, doing the assigned reading and taking the occasional note now and again?

Often, they blame the teacher. A good number now feel that if the teacher is doing their job properly, then even if they don't attend class, the teacher should magically be able to ZAP the material into their PlayStation units and/or mascara bottles and from there arrange to have the material transported into their heads. Otherwise, the teachers are "incompetent."

Often I've heard asked "Why is it the teachers' fault until they get to college and then it's the students' fault?"

Well one part of the answer, according to me, is the false assumption that Profs oughtn't be trained in TEACHING like all teachers from K-12 are. (So it shouldn't be JUST the students' fault when they get to college.) But an ignored part of the answer is that it ISN'T entirely the teachers' fault, even in K-12. "Society" etc. puts down the K-12 teachers, the ones actually trained to teach at the level they are teaching, far too much.

Hey! Pssst! Society! How about giving K-12 teachers a little respect?

How can you learn from an object of derision?
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
68. Well said. Very well said.
To what do boys aspire?

A very large proportion of boys are quite confident that they'll be sports professionals when they grow up. (If nothing else, it indicates that they need some help with the concept of statistical probability). I have three sons, and my family considered me borderline cruel when I pointed out to the eldest that he won't - so he'd better study.

(Replying "no" when asked by a bright-eyed 5th grader if I thought he could be a professional baseball player when he grew up was a hard thing to say.)

If boys find they lack the top 0.1% of athletic skill, what will they do? By the time boys have reached the age when they realize that they won't be a professional football player, they've passed the time at which they needed to begin taking their academics seriously. Even those who do have the natural athletic talent that would have enabled them to attain scholarships 30 years ago find them harder to attain today. This is one of the reasons that girls are 50% more likely to go to college than boys.

The realization that many here don't consider this a problem vexes me.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
45. Like, what?
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
46. Known this from my own boys... the dumbing down has been
going on for over 2 decades... this is a terrible problem in America
not being address... I believe they are wanting the American male to be a military grunt...

the balance was being affected all througout the public school system...
I battled it the whole way for my kids... now they are the lucky ones while all their friends have enlisted ... Its really sad...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
48. Kids KNOW that their teachers' jobs are on the line, based
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 04:22 AM by SoCalDem
on how well THEY test...so the message right off the bat is. "test well or there will be hell to pay"..The lesson plans are built around "the almighty test", and if there's 'collateral learning', well Hurrah...but the goal is for the class/school/district to "test well"..

I almost wish that schools would just give up that measly 7% they claim to get from the feds, and JUST GO BACK TO TEACHING.

Teach a section, then test on what was taught..Take the pressure off the kids..Inspire them to learn because they need to ..not because somebody's gonna lose a job if they fail their tests..


Schools need to start anew..with a new plan..(or really an OLD plan)

TEACH basics to ALL kids..

math
science
grammar/spelling/composition/reading
history
geography
health/music/art/phys ed

Make the connection to the kids about how education is a pyramid, and every layer needs a foundation below it.

Remove the property tax connection to schools.. EVERY COMMUNITY NEEDS SCHOOLS, and it should be a part of every town/city/state's agenda ..to fund schools equally..

Neighborhood schools need to come back. they reason schooling costs so much is because we have so many Giganto-Schools with 4-5 thousand kids.. It's no wonder why some kids lose interest..

School should be a place where kids can shine and make friends. If they are just another tiny cog in a huge machine, how can they make a connection to their school?

Success breeds success.. If a child feels left out, left behind, ignored, and hates school, should we be surprised when they quit school at the earliest opportunity?

The kids who quit, KNOW they are hurting themselves, but for some, the agony of GOING to school is so painful, they are willing to sacrifice their futures...just to end it..
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:11 PM
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56. It has almost nothing to do with how schools teach IMO
I believe that teaching methods and the ascendance of right wing philosophy have very little to do with this dumbing down.

I believe these changes are almost entirely the result of changes in social identity patterns.

The strongest force in our lives from early childhood through the teen years is the development of our identity. Try to tell a teenage girl that she can't wear that hooded sweatshirt of her choice and you'll see the strength of that force in action. Almost all the energy expended by teens is done to fulfill their developing personal identity vision - or avoid having an appearance at odds with the identity vision they've adopted.

If a child's sees scholarly intelligence as "nerdy" and unpopular - she will do almost anything to avoid having others see her as that type of person.

If a boy sees himself as a very competent video game master - or as a gang banger - he will spend almost any amount of energy to fit himself into that vision. In both cases that will require a tremendous amount of personal energy and commitment.

If he sees himself developing into a scholarly scientist or a teacher - or whatever - then he will spend any amount of personal energy fulfilling that vision he has for himself. Once a child adopts an identity vision almost nothing will prevent them from fulfilling that vision. It is part of our evolution to do this. It is how we survive and no amount of social engineering can change that.

That's why many Asian ethnic students - even in low performing school systems - do relatively well. It's because their own identity vision, imparted to them by their parents and extended family (and especially by their friends who approve of and often share that type of identity vision) requires them to fulfill that destiny.

That's also why poor inner city schools have such difficulty. It's because a large number of those students have adopted the identity visions of the adults in their community - a perfectly natural outcome. All the money in the world will do little to correct that problem - as that collective identity vision has to change first.

That's almost impossible to do from the outside. People who are not part of a child's trusted inner circle as they grow up (like teachers and principles and sometimes parents) have little control over this.

Children get their identity visions from movies and media icons and sports heroes - but mostly from their friends and associates. They will almost always adopt the identity visions that their friends approve of.

Identity is the most powerful force in the life of teens. Personal academic accomplishment has little to do with schools and teachers - it is mostly a matter of harnessing the force of personal identity - as many Asian families have somehow managed to do.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 12:47 PM
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61. Well, the Pubs said BC taught our kids that oral sex was OK.
I guess Shrub taught them it's OK to be dumb! He even said that in a speech early in his first term...something like "see how far a "C" student can get!"
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:50 PM
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67. Girls read more than boys. Always have, always will.
And the trend continues into adulthood. Enthusiastic readers will usually do better in school. If it weren't for Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and Harry Potter, very few boys would read at all.

Coming out of publishing, I can tell you that at lest 75% of fiction readers are female.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:57 PM
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69. The Dumbing down of America--the Bush years
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
71. ever since we were told to get Connected and Under Control (tm)
there's a mysterious time correlation between this, the reign of Poppy I, and the cultural memes about the t0p s3kr1t c0d3w0rdz:

Connected
Trust
Under Control
Pay The Price
Natural Law
Responsibility
Confidence
Resolve
Firm (ya know, I think there are some striking sexual undertones in all this. But I ain't sayin nothin.)
Leader

Oh yes, and the rise of the ignorami, who think (as PNAC puts it) that the vigor with which you advocate your position is far more important than the content of that position. And who have been the footsoldiers, nay, lackeys, spreading this message to their fellow citizens, whether those are interested or not.

Part of this pathology is a cartoonish focus on the "male role" (not roll) which says that if only our menfolk were stronger, more reliable, more reticent (and yet still sensitive (tm)) then we would be so much better off: properly feminine women would feel more satisfied in bed (hence the nightly torrent of ads for preparations causing erections lasting not more than 4 hours) and around the hearth, our children would be more virtuous, since the gender with a rod in its pants won't spare another kind of rod when discipline is needed, and with a better understanding of the roles defined for each of us, we would all be better off. Here, it's all described in this comic book, give it a read and join us.

Promisecreepers is maybe one of the ultimate expressions of this cultural current as commonly conveyed. It's a sort of "for-your-own-good" moral fortification movement which in part is a sort of little-old-lady wheedling questioning why you don't want to partake, but in other parts is a rather brutal and aggressive movement to homogenize culture under a banner which proclaims that obedience to the social (and therefore economic, which is where the action really is) status quo is the first priority, and frames the context in which any personal or collective life takes place.

Our youth, and particularly our boys (the girls are left to choose between the slutty depredations of Britney Spears and MTV, versus being smart, maybe a little dowdy, achievers - sounds like the 50s to me, and when abortion and porn are outlawed, it will be) have been exposed to this trash since Pops put lead in his pencil and took us to war in the Gulf. Whether this is deliberate social engineering or truly a mere coincidence, well, I leave that to you dear reader. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that the "dominant culture" (and dominance, as an expression of and vehicle to achieving, material power, figures strongly in the ignorami inner world) since around 1990 has been a stultifying message of mindless patriotism (every time I heard "Gawd Bless the USA" back then I wanted to hurl, and not because of the sentiment but because of the mentality celebrating the song), urgings to prepare yourselves to be reliable, reticent, sturdy males, ready to serve as reservoirs of personalized energy for your family or your nation, but heaven forfend not indulging in the arrogance of individual thought, nevermind volition or decision making.

Here's a message I have for your and the rest of America's sons: they need to learn the phrase "Fuck that Shit", and then apply it, and live it.
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