Poll: I Think Tookie Deserves Clemency Because/Doesn't Because ________

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

Poll question: Poll: I Think Tookie Deserves Clemency Because/Doesn't Because ________

I've seen this debate here the last few days, and have seen a bit of everything as to why he should or shouldn't be executed. So I'm curious from a DU community standpoint just how many feel each way.

This isn't meant as debate, just a way to see how far each bar goes :)

on edit:change thread title

[Tace]

1. I Voted For The First Choice -- But I Would Vote For The Top Three...

if I could.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. But the 3rd one says he's guilty, the 2nd one says not sure.

Do you think he's guilty or are you not sure lol

[babylonsister]

2. Please remind us again of what

Tookie did; I know he's now doing good, but I have stayed away from his original sin, i.e., I don't know what he did wrong. Whatever it was, was it proven beyond a shadow of a doubt?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Seriously? There are like a brazillion threads on it LOL But since ya

asked nicely, here's the typical day to day thread :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5493020

[babylonsister]

16. There are certain topics I don't go to, and I

guess this is one of them. I'm very conflicted about the death penalty.

[hiaasenrocks]

18. You can get all the relevant trial information

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5500980

[MrSlayer]

3. Last option.

He's a mass murderer and deserves death.

[depakid]

5. would never have guessed

considering your screen name....;-)

[Endangered Specie]

6. Looks like a biased poll to me.

"Poll: I Think Tookie Deserves Clemency Because _______" yet the (last 2 of 5) options arent for clemency.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. I tried to be sooooooo thorough as to it not being biased.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. I was focusing too hard on the categories themselves I guess

I agree though, so I just edited the title. Hope that suits you now :)

[Endangered Specie]

10. yeah, thats better

:thumbsup:

[Raksha]

8. I voted for the first choice,

but my real answer would have to be a combination of #1 and #3. Although I've always been opposed on principle to the death penalty, Tookie Williams has done a lot to redeem himself during his time in prison. About #2 I'm not qualified to say one way or the other--I just don't know enough about his trial.

[GrumpyGreg]

11. I'm against the death penalty. Period. That said,I wouldn't want him

to win the Nobel Peace Prize.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. You Know He Was Actually Nominated Right?

I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or saying you are glad he really didn't win it when he was nominated.

[GrumpyGreg]

14. Yes,I knew he was nominated. n/t

[Walt Starr]

28. You know the "doctor" who said Terry Shiavo was conscious

was nominated for a Nobel Prize in medicine, didn't you?

Of course, I could nominate you for the Nobel Prize in Physics, too.

[Patchuli]

13. I voted for clemency

because he is doing so much for at-risk youth and has tried to make amends for his past. I also don't like the death penalty either but I fear that removing it will encourage more people to murder since they know they would not have to fear the death penalty. I especially feel strongly about those who abuse and murder children; I don't care what happens to them! I could almost pull the switch myself on pedophile murderers, but still...I don't like the death penalty. Sigh. :-(

I also fear that if they put Tookie to death, there's going to be riots in the prisons and the streets! I'm a native of Los Angeles and those gang ties are STRONG. I think Ahnold would be wise to pardon this one.

[Swede]

17. The state shouldn't have the right to put someone to death.

Violence begets violence.

[Mr.Green93]

19. Nor should there be 'Life Without the Possibility of Parole'

It is the same as a death sentence.

[Sapphire Blue]

20. Why I support clemency for Stan Tookie Williams...

Is Stan Tookie Williams guilty of the 4 murders of which he was convicted? He is the only one who can answer that... I don't know the answer, but I don't believe he is guilty.

I am aware of his past involvement in co-founding the Crips, I am aware of his life of violence; I am also aware of his efforts for more than a decade to keep others out of the horrible life to which he succumbed. After his conviction and several years on death row, and after much soul searching, this man overcame incredible odds, and turned his life around. In doing so, he has also turned the lives of tens of thousands of young people around with the anti-gang work he has done for more than a decade.

I understand that many are angry about what this man has done in his past, that many believe that he is guilty of the murders of which he was convicted, and want to see him punished. If he receives clemency, he will remain in prison... life w/o parole... he will be punished. His execution will serve to provide vengeance (whether deserved or not), rather than punishment. It will also serve to the teach children that he is helping that there is no hope, no redemption, and that they don't matter.

Why do I plead for clemency for a convicted murderer? Why do I plead for the life of the man who co-founded the Crips? I have over 150,000 reasons:

Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx has officially endorsed a Stan 'Tookie' Williams clemency campaign spearheaded by over 150,000 youth who claim the Nobel Peace Prize Nominee (set to be executed on Foxx's 38th birthday next month: Dec 13) has saved their lives with his nine anti-drug books and personal anti-gang mentoring over the past decade.

http://www.eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23360

Our children are too precious to discard. I care about our children.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. I can't really argue with anything you said at all except the following:

"It will also serve to the teach children that he is helping that there is no hope, no redemption, and that they don't matter."

I disagree with that completely. It would only be showing that those who murder(assuming he's guilty) 4 people in cold blood that there is no hope or redemption. Including those that never killed anybody is really twisting and stretching the point excessively in my opinion.

Other than that though I thought it was a great post.

:hi:

[Sapphire Blue]

22. Then our feelings differ on that point.

Keep in mind many of these young people are already involved in gang life. If this man is executed, these young people that he has been leading out of gang life might very well feel that their lives don't matter... that whether they, like Stan Tookie Williams, change their ways or not, doesn't matter... that there is no hope, no redemption for them either.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. The Difference Is that He changed after murdering 4 people, they could

change prior to murdering 4 people.

I think that's a pretty significant difference.

[Sapphire Blue]

24. He changed after being CONVICTED of murdering 4 people.

He can help others before they commit murder or are convicted of murder... he has been doing that for more than a decade.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. I agree, but that wasn't the argument was it

It was about saying they too would have no hope. Saying that simply because a man convicted of murdering 4 people was executed takes away hope from those that haven't murdered 4 people(or been convicted of murdering 4 people) is a tremendous stretch.

[Sapphire Blue]

26. Not a stretch when they are/might be following in his footsteps.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Following In which footsteps? The Good steps Or Murderous Ones?

I couldn't tell from your context. If they are following in his good footsteps, then I see no reason why they couldn't continue down that path.

However, if they are or might be following in his murderous footsteps, then they belong in prison.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. I thought you said this wasn't up for debate?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. I did. But in reply to a post there is debate on the context of a part

of that. Nothing wrong there. The debate is also not on whether he should or shouldn't be executed. It is merely my reaction to a statement saying that innocent people who haven't killed anyone(or been convicted of it) would lose all hope that they could change their lives if somebody that has been convicted was executed. It just stuck out to me as a logical contradiction.

[Sapphire Blue]

32. Following in his past footsteps.

"if they are or might be following in his murderous footsteps, then they belong in prison." ???

Is this the message that they need to hear? That there is no hope for change, no hope for redemption... only a future in prison?!?!


Please read...

Stanley "Tookie" Williams: Redemption or Revenge?

Who knew that so many Huffington Post readers would be so thirsty for the blood of death row-inmate Stanley “Tookie” Williams? In my first post on the subject last week I had wanted to avoid the larger issue of the barbaric inanity of the death penalty to try to reach across the aisle to even the usually pro-death penalty people.

If Mr. Williams is granted clemency by Governor Schwarzenegger he will merely keep doing what he has been doing for the past two decades behind bars: trying to convince others not to follow in his footsteps. I tried to argue that as a symbol of redemption he better serves the public good alive than dead.

For example, in the first four months of January of last year thirty-two Bloods and Crips in Newark, New Jersey, had been murdered in their senseless, ongoing feud. On April 11th, Easter Sunday, Redemption, the made-for-TV movie on Mr. Williams’ life starring Jamie Foxx, aired on the F/X channel. Some Crips and Bloods saw the show, immediately went online to Mr. Williams’ website and downloaded his “peace protocol.” By May the details were ironed out, a truce was signed and former Crip Kevin Tate and Blood Lawrence McKinnis now head an extremely non-criminal organization called, “S(aving). O(ur). S(elves).”

<snip>

And if you’re a Christian, you obviously must be against capital punishment, because Jesus Christ couldn’t be more explicit in his condemnation of killing. WWJD? He sure as hell wouldn’t flip the switch.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/trey-ellis/stanley-tookie-williams_b_1913.html

Another article...

Dead man talking
INTERVIEW BY STEVE BOGGAN
November 24, 2005
Tookie Williams faces the death penalty on December 13 for murder, a case that has divided America

(excerpt)

Williams is due to be executed by lethal injection on December 13. As co-founder of the Crips, America’s most notorious gang, and murderer of four innocent people, you might expect his passing to go unopposed, save for the usual objections of the anti-death penalty lobby. But you would be wrong.

His execution is causing more than the usual amount of debate in the US, more dissent, more soul-searching. Because the violent, narcissistic thug who was placed behind bars amid much rejoicing 24 years ago is not the same man who will have chemicals pumped into his veins in three weeks’ time. The Stanley Williams who faces death has undergone a dramatic change in personality, a rehabilitation that has seen him develop into an influential writer on the receiving end of five Nobel Peace Prize nominations and four for the Nobel Prize for Literature.

<snip>

“I look back now and what I see is a pattern of self-hate — not just in me, but among all the people I associated with,” he says. “When you grow up fed with a constant diet of stereotypes about criminal black people, on TV, in movies and the media, you slowly begin to believe it. You hate those stereotypes and you hate what you become. And what it leads to is most destructive — violence against other black people who are also filled with self-loathing. It becomes self-perpetuating.”

<snip>

“They propagate rehabilitation and reform but when it comes down to it they destroy it by any means necessary. By being alive I can save the lives of people involved in gangs — but who are those people? They are mostly poor black people and if I am killed what message does it send? “It tells people in prison that it isn’t worth trying to change and it tells the young black people in gangs that their lives are not worth saving.”

Continued @ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1885637_1,00.html

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. I do want to make something clear

Though I really don't want to go back and forth anymore in this sub-thread (I think we've both explained our points) I did want to make something clear first so that there isn't a wrong perception.

I am against his being put to death, and think the death penalty is completely stupid under any circumstance always. I also know first hand the ability to change as I have been in jail myself and learned quite a bit while in there, and have been 100% productive ever since. I think people can always change, and that all humans have unlimited potential when it comes to behavior and choices.

[Sapphire Blue]

37. Whatever our differences, we can agree on your statement...

"I think people can always change, and that all humans have unlimited potential when it comes to behavior and choices."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Killing him would accomplish what? Anything?

Other than proving that the United States is barbaric?

[Zynx]

33. The death penalty is wrong in all circumstances.

I will not support it ever.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

34. Leave the killing to any higher power who might exist.

It isn't man's choice to decide which of his fellows lives and dies.

[Ladyhawk]

35. My brother was a correctional officer at San Quentin and knew Tookie

Williams personally. I know for a fact my brother was psychologically brutal to Death Row inmates and I suspect he was physically brutal as well. My brother alleges that Tookie engaged in gang activities long after his "change of heart" and probably still does to this day. However, this is just hearsay. I trust my brother about as much as I trust Tookie. I know just enough about both of them to doubt both their claims.

Our father taught my brother to beat up on the weak, which included his little sister and animals. From what I've seen, there's been no change of heart. It's just easier to exert power over people behind bars and get paid for it. Like I said, I don't know for sure how my brother treats the inmates physically, but I know he does whatever he can to torment them emotionally. My brother used to take pride in the fact that he would be happy to drag the inmates "kicking and screaming" to the gas chamber. He walked past their cells singing, "Plop, plop! Fizz, fizz! Oh, what a relief it is!" This was in reference to cyanide pills dropping down in California's old gas chamber.

So, does the death penalty make monsters of us all? I don't know. I think my brother had a tendency to be monstrous before he became a correctional officer. He's outgrown beating up on his little sister. I don't know if he's outgrown torturing animals. He certainly doesn't care about animals. And I know he doesn't care about inmates.

I'm leaning toward not supporting the death penalty at all, but I have mixed feelings about capital punishment because 1) it is not uncommon for those on Death Row to kill again while in prison, 2) it is not uncommon for those on Death Row to be innocent of their crimes, 3) "life in prison" doesn't really mean life in prison, 4) executing criminals takes a toll on those whose job it is to carry it out.

I would be for abolishing the death penalty if 1) "life in prison" really means life in prison, 2) correctional officers get special training to deal with very violent inmates to prevent violence directed toward other prisoners and staff and 3) correctional officers understand the risks of dealing with very violent inmates and receive hazard pay and insurance.

I wish the system would weed out people like my brother, but instead, it attracts them. The way these correctional officers treat the inmates probably makes the inmates more prone to violence.

My brother has no doubt realized I didn't think his little "jokes" on the Death Row inmates were funny, so I'm not likely to hear more about what goes on behind the walls. Luckily, he doesn't work at San Quentin anymore, so it may have given his views some time to soften. I hope so, for my brother's sake, as well as the sake of the inmates.