F**k It!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

I am going back to the only place I feel alive and free and "near to the wild heart of life". That would be les pentes de la Croix Rousse in Lyon, France.

I have been a Democrat, a Peace and Freedom member, a Green, and now I am an Independent. And I give up. The American people are too fat and lazy, concerned with their own gross desires and largesse, for me to ever feel "at home" here again. I am disgusted to the Nth degree by the whole character of American society, from bottom to top and side to side.

The American notion that every man might be a king has always been a sad and deluded myth. We are separated by broad avenues and speeding cars, and the incessant demands and manufactured needs of a consumer society. We work too much and love too little. People do not know how to have a conversation, let alone develop intimacy and trust, even with their families and friends or lovers.

I am not a nationalist - count me with Arundhati Roy - I am an Internationalist. WJC has propounded his thesis for several years now, that the world must move from dependence, to Independence, to inter-dependence. Hyper-Americans are deluded to think that this fantasy can last any longer. The American Dream is crashing to earth just as surely as Daedelus, and I will not lament its passing.

I am going home to the birthplace of the modern socialist movement. Those of you who know your French history will recognize Croix Rousse and remember the Revolt of the Canuts - the first movement of the working class in modern history to demand redress from the bourgoise - and Win! Their legacy still stands in the stoic batiments of The Slopes - every brick and slab worn by a million footfalls of working-class and immigrant laborers, artists and artisans. The flame still burns there; it has not faded.

Les Pentes are a great leveler of people - to climb La Montee de la Grande Cote is a humbling and thirsty business. Well-off or no, one shares the experience every day, and in the life on the street, there is hope and heart in every gesture, every exchange of words. We are a village.

I am going home, and leave this rude, dispiriting debacle of a nation. I will send postcards.

[NVMojo]

1. wish I could leave some days ...

[SammyWinstonJack]

111. I wish I could leave most days....

[Radio_Lady]

221. So, does this mean Lyon, France? I had to look up the beautiful photos.

http://www.sfrpsa.univ-lyon1.fr/SFRPSA/guided_tour/index6.html

.html

http://www.lyon-photos.com/diaporama/moyenne_154.htm

http://www.carnets-voyage.com/france-routes-gourmandes-lyon-croixrousse.htm

Looks like a wonderful place. You sound like a very interesting person. What will you do there?

Many retired Americans would move to other places, if the medical and language difficulties were not insurmountable. We also have five delightful grandchildren in the United States. That would mean divorcing them completely.

Stay well. "Allons enfants de la patria" -- etc. "Pardonez-moi" for the high school French.

Peace from Radio_Lady

[toymachines]

2. godspeed

I hope you find there what you could not here.

[Raine]

3. Sigh...

I wish I could leave here :-(

[bluestateguy]

4. We still need your vote every two years

I hope that's not asking too much from people who do not have the luxury of just jetting off to France at a whim. If you feel that you must leave, fine. I wish you well, but for those of us who have chosen to stay and fight--or who cannot leave--we only ask that you remain a registered voter, and fulfill the small obligation of voting every two years.

[Erika]

5. W has killed the American Dream & our Christian ethic

of taking care of the poor. I envy you. We are left with a corrupt capitalist/theocratic/fascism administration who looks out only for the rich. Much like the government we left to form a new government.

Even his supporters are starting to figure it out. But the damage has been done. Big time.

[melody]

18. And the way to help the poor is by abandoning them?

[0007]

52. The American Dream was already in the toilet junior just

flushed it!! And replace it with the White House Mafia.

American is going down hill, the only question now is how fast is fast?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

66. He has NOT killed it!

He's maimed it a bit and it is up to us to GET IT BACK.

[Clarkie1]

6. Do you really think France will be that much different? n/t

[Seabiscuit]

90. If you can say that with a straight face you've obviously never been there

[Clarkie1]

230. There is good and bad in people, prejudice, and ignorance wherever you go.

I really think this poster is a bit naive if he thinks he can escape the human condition by fleeing to France.

[Seabiscuit]

237. Yes, but the type and level of all that can vary quite a bit from one

country to another (and from one place to another in a country - e.g. I'm fairly certain the OP isn't running away from Berkeley or San Francisco). It is perhaps the particular kind of prejudice and ignorance that the OP has encountered here, apparently on such an overwhelming level (e.g., no doubt America's peculiar brand of Christian fundamentalism, something the rest of this planet is fairly aghast at) that he's seeking greener pastures in a town he likes and is familiar with. I don't think he's trying so much to "escape the human condition" as he is deciding to return to a different culture that he's comfortable with.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

7. Hate to see you go

anyone who can write like that can talk like and needs to be heard in idle conversation at the gas station, the supermarket and, more than anywhere else, in church here in the USA.

But I offer no blame should you go.

Hell, I sometimes even manage to long for my home soil in Alabama. Even Philistines get homesick.

And you're heading back to at least a semblance of civilization. I can't blame you.

:toast:

But Icarus did the crashing. Daedalus did the watching of the crashing.

[POAS]

8. Live well, wherever you land

I've explored the notion of becoming an ex-patriot but alas at 60 the enthusiasm for such an adventure has passed.

[Seabiscuit]

91. We're the same age, and I have no "enthusiasm" about such an

"adventure" either, but believe me, if it gets so bad here that I can no longer trust my young son's future in the hands of Americans, I will definitely take him with me to a more civilized country like France, not out of enthusiasm, but out of disgust over the loss of hope for what was once a promising democracy.

[punpirate]

9. Bon chance...

... and never forget those whom you've left behind. This country is not entirely composed of the ridiculous and the rabid. :)

Cheers.

[loveable liberal]

10. Can't thank ya enuf for all the time......

Leave the tough stuff to us mang.

[Swamp Rat]

11. Lyon, where cannibals drank blood fresh off the gallows...

... redheads were preferable. :9 Yes, I know a bit of French history, and not all of it is savory, including Lyon. :D

Btw, Arundhati Roy is a great read.

Don't send postcards, send me a plane ticket! :)

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

14. Check's in the mail!

Ya, mon, Arundhati Roy is one sharp cookie (and hot, too!) She's the one who dubbed junior "Bush the Lesser"!

You are so right - Lyon is one blood-stained city alright... right back to the Gallo-Roman era. Yup - Lions ate Christians in an amphitheatre at the foot of the Montee, and the Nazis slaughtered young Resistance fighters on the eve of their retreat, in July 1944. (The "Stone Man" monument, on Place Bellecour, is a moving tri)bute to those fair lads..the inscription reads "Passant Va Dire Au Monde Ils Sont Morts pour les Liberte" ).

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

12. I come from a huge family.

It has been torn apart by the last 20 years of Republican ascension, the decade-long war on the Clintons, and Bush's War - irreparable damage has been done, and things said that cannot be taken back or excused. The lines have been drawn with violent words and deliberate neglect.

I have felt like an exile for many years, alienated by the ratissage - the rathunt for money and power and STUFF. My compatriots on the hard rues of Lyon have no patience for television or automobiles, as their concerns extend to friends and family, art and culture, and they have no time for such trifles as a big-screen television or a big house.

It is not that I have money, but I can go because I have no more ties binding me here. I go on a wing and a prayer, but I know that I will find fertile ground for my ideas.

It is a place and a people with Heart, and believe me it is not with glee that I depart.

I think that the working class is in for a very hard road, the next few decades...I decided, after much soul-searching, that the place I would most rather find sanctuary in is les pentes, where people have understood for a long time that we all are in it together.

[kster]

13. If you go home

your gonna miss all the fun, Because when we Americans get pissed off shit happens, we are only beginning this fight, the Neocons better hope for the best, because WE ARE READY TO GET THEM.

[Der Blaue Engel]

15. Am I the only one not loving this post?

Cuz I'm not loving it. Keep your postcards.

The neocons have tried to destroy this beautiful country, but they haven't done it yet, and we are not all fat, lazy, and stupid. Some of us are working for change. Some of us still love this country.

[Leilani]

19. No, you're not the only one not loving this post.

What an arrogant attitude, but it's to be expected.

I've traveled to many countries & France was my least favorite; people who love American tourist $$$ but hate Americans, but it's not personal, because they hate everyone except other Frenchmen.

A country that has riots every night because they won't assimilate their immigrants, unlike America which is composed of immigrants.

We may be having a rough time right now with idiots in control, but it will not last.

And the next time you're attacked, I doubt many Americans will be interested in saving your butt yet again.

[melody]

20. The French are no more arrogant than anyone else

We just interpret their attitudes through the eyes of a different culture. I do agree with you completely, though, that Mr Red is, well, off the money on this front. In fact, I think he is a troll with his whole sixty posts. Some far-off non-American or other individual trying to cause trouble over yonder.

I'm dropping him into the ignore list.

[Inland]

116. But they have less reason than many. nt

[melody]

123. They're a different culture. IMO, we shouldn't be projecting

...our value system onto them.

Yanks have enough problems in our own yard without judging someone else's -- but that's a courtesy I wish would also be extended to our culture more often than it is.

[Inland]

142. I think the OP was pretty judgmental,

so we have either a point where a) everyone asks the judgmental to stand down or b) I get to put in my two cents on whether the judgment is good or bad, again, IMO.

Just let us know what the rules are. I'm itching for a fight today, so I can live with either one.

[melody]

144. No rules, I was just adding my opinion, too, fwiw lol

And yeah, OP was being very judgmental, which is why I posted to him/her in another thread. Just making the point in all cases...

[LWolf]

40. Do you prefer

"freedom fries" to "french fries?"

Just askin'.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

46. Frites for me! Hold the mayo...n/t

[astroBspacedog]

80. Neither, ---

I've been calling them "failure fries".

[Wise Doubter]

145. How about

Farce Fries ??

[kid a]

54. saving your [french] butt - the most ridiculous statement . . .

since intellegent design.

Did you put on your schmidtesque red, white, and blue blouse today?

Give me a fucking break!

[dutchdemocrat]

124. Wow... Freeper mantra.

And the next time you're attacked, I doubt many Americans will be interested in saving your butt yet again.

You should read some American history and how the French 'saved' America's ass in the Revolutionary War.

[LWolf]

42. I've never loved this country.

At least, not if you consider "country" to be political boundaries or machines.

I love the land. I try to love the people. I try to live the universal concepts that I value. But I don't love political machines or their symbols.

When I'm working for change, it's not for the "country." Its for the planet and her people.

The rest, in my humble opinion, is propaganda.

[Qibing Zero]

100. Exactly.

People's fascination with imaginary borders and other means of separation disturbs me.

[LWolf]

141. It disturbs me as well.

The path to nationalism is paved with such.

[Marr]

165. No, you're not alone.

I think this post is bullshit, frankly. I don't appreciate the broad brush insults to Americans and I don't particularly respect the idealism of people who run from fights.

Having said that, I've been to France a couple of times and I love the place. The French I've met were just as friendly as anybody else.

[wake.up.america]

16. au revoir l'Amérique et la bonne chance!

[melody]

17. If you hate it that much, you should leave`

Meanwhile, I'll stick behind with the Americans who need us - 75% of which are as good and decent as any other nationality on the earth. If you hate fat people, I'm afraid that's your own problem and you're going to find them everywhere. If you hate lazy people, well, I'd suggest it's lazy to give up the ship on your own nation so soon, but it's your choice -- still, I have an equal choice to think you are lazy for doing so.

The only Americans I'm tired of (beyond the 30% who still think Bush is God) are those who've been hornswaggled into hating their own culture. I'm sorry if you have contempt for us, but by all means, leave -- the bigots who also hate us will adore you. My family came here, at the oldest part, fifty thousand or so years ago. The British sections came here as long ago as 350 years. It's the only national identity I have. And I am and will always be a liberal.

I'm now off to file behind a deadline and try to sleep. I hope you go where ever your heart suits you, but you won't be escaping anything -- people are alike all over. They are equally "good" and "bad" in variant ways. That's the one thing in common we all have -- we're human.

[Leilani]

21. Very nice post!

[renie408]

25. BRAVO!!!

Damn SKIPPY!!!

And I hope the OP remembers to obtain fire insurance for his car when he gets to the primordial home of freedom.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

49. Regarding fat people...

I am not sure if I would characterize my feelings as hate or contempt - disgust, perhaps. I see all kinds of young folks too large to move, their complexions pale, panting over their Big Mac. it is sad... one of the most glaringly unhealthy aspects of our culture.

I do hate the consumption-based values of this culture - as if the aquisition of material goods can satisfy the longings of the soul.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

73. You might want to revisit your concept

of the think and supple French when you read this:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/03/news/obese.php

You forgot a zero on your 4. This article claims 40% of the French are overweight.

Obesity is not a moral issue. It is a complex issue, as I well know, being obese. And I have met people such as yourself who view me with disgust. I have long felt that being very fat was a bit of a gift because it gives me radar into a person's soul. Those who turn their face from me because of disgust I realize early on are emotional lightweights (no pun intended) and I don't waste my time on them. I gravitate to the people who can see through my burden and into my eyes. I am sorry you are obviously so emotionally handicapped.

There are people in the world who are quick with judgment, quick to give up, quick with their disdain. They miss so much in life. Enjoy hiking up your hill with your compatriots.

[renie408]

76. Do you think

that American culture plays a part at all in your weight situation?

I am somewhat overweight and I do tend to think that there are aspects of the current American culture which have added to my weight gain over the years. But then again, I have never lived anywhere else, so maybe that is just my perception and not reality.

[melody]

132. I think I can answer this a bit

When you look where southern US populations come from, you'll find fat people -- Scotland, Ireland, northern England. Pooling all British nationalities, we comprise 52% of the United States. Most of the people who came to the colonies were servant class (and thus, poor). More people were from famine areas. Couple all of this with a genetic tendency to differently manage carbohydrates (resulting in a high number of alcoholics, et al, as with the Irish... Scots, etc.), two traits you'll also find in two other southern dominant ethnic groups, Native American and African, and you have the perfect culture for an obese population.

Remember, obesity often indicates a sophisticated metabolism - we're better "users" of fuel than many thin people. If we draw our genetic heritage from famine cultures, their bodies had to learn to function on less. If we draw our genetic heritage from nomadic cultures (indigenous Asian as in the American Indians, or African), then only the fattest survived the journey to the new place.

Okay, end of inherited characters for today. lol

In essence, anyone who looks down on you for being fat is a moron. Moron is the only distinctly native criminal class, outside of Congress. ;-)

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

84. True - it is not an individual moral issue.

I do make that distinction.

The disgust I feel is not for the person, but the culture that encourages overconsumption for its own sake. It is sad to see so many young people, in particular, imobilized by their weight.

I would like to find a side-by-side comparison of American v. French incidence of obesity. I believe my eyes.

[CanSocDem]

196. Right....

"The disgust I feel is not for the person, but the culture that encourages overconsumption for its own sake."

When I read "fat Americans", their body weight is rarely considered. The size of their car, the size of their 'sense of entitlement' come to mind much quicker....

[rockymountaindem]

71. Yes!

My story is like yours. America might not be as great as people like Rush pretend, neither is it a pit of darkness as others on the far left like Churchill claim. With all it's flaws, America is the country that saved my ancestors and family from the ravages of Europe. My great-grandfather came here 100 years ago at the age of 12 all alone and with absolutely nothing. Today my family has a standard of living that is far ahead of the place he came from. America is my only country, and even when I'm mad, I can't stay mad. I will not quit, or fantasize about quitting, because I know I never could.

As for the OP, my money is on him/her being a troll.

Great post melody :toast:

[LeftHander]

239. no "hornswaggling" needed....our culture sucks.

Accept the fact that our "American" culture is doomed. Our consumer/oil based culture is a dead-end. It is destroying the planet in a disproportionate manner compared to the rest of the world. The vast majority of which live on a fraction of what we consider our standard of living.

I for one don't blame any forgien national that has had second thoughts about making America home. It is a shitty place right now thanks to the corporate and neo-con control of government

Who wants to stick around while an entire nation collapses under the wieght of it's own twisted expectations?

This is a nation of and for selfish bigots. If you can turn your back on your neighbor, cheat your friends, and curse the poor for not being responsible then you will do will in this country.

If America is to survive the next 100 years we have to do these things:

1. Socialize Healthcare
2. Tax the wealthy HEAVILY - redistribute the wealth
3. Reinvest in education - Free for all who want it.
4. Return a large pecentage of the media to the public (50% minimum)
5. Eliminate nuclear weapons and all WMD in our aresenal.
6. Legalize Marijuana
7. Reform our democracy - Term Limits, campaign finiancing & eliminate electoral college.
8. Rapidly change our energy consumption to renewable sources.
9. Re-build local economies by regulating wholesale prices. No WalMart should have advantage over local businesses because of size. Nor should they be allowed to import cheap products made by the worlds poor to do so.
10. Keep religion out of government.

Radical changes are needed to turn this country around. If we stay the course as we are now, freely consuming the world's resources then we will continue to fall prey to terror, animosity and division of our own society.

Hard pills to swallow for most democrats and pure "fantasy" for any republican.

The world is rapidly changing and either we start facilitating change for the common good by changing our vapidly selfish culture of consumption or we will see this nation and world dissolve into a new "dark ages".

We make those changes above and we will have a freer society that empowers the individual, protects the environment, invests in the people by keeping us healthy, educated and allows us to conduct buisness on a local scale free from unfair corporate domination. We have to return our democracy to the people and away from the corporate control it suffers under now.

[Freedomfried]

22. Hey, at least he's going to send back some postcards.

e0m

[ktlyon]

23. bye, bye

bye

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

24. K&R.... Well written.

[No Exit]

26. The only thing I'm wondering about is

why the HELL anyone would have lived here in the first place btw 2000 and 2005--while we had a demented ape running our government--if they had any place else to go.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

193. I've been thinking about your response for a bit

and look at is from the perspective of almost 6 decades. Would you really change your life (pull up stakes, new job, new house, potentially even new citizenship) when an administration comes in your don't like? Because what happens if you move and then, boom, the conversatives manage to wiggle in there for a while? Move again?

Personally, I've very interested in who is in power and what they do, but I don't anticipate changing my life because of it because just like your username..there really is NO EXIT from politics you don't agree with. It happens regularly.

[No Exit]

202. Well, you'll notice I haven't moved.

(Oh, okay, you probably WOULDN'T notice, b/c I could be posting from a foreign country! Okay: I'm still in the U.S.!)

What you said is true, if one is discontented with the whole general picture of a party's politics. For example, I am discontented (make that: angry) at the repukes' dominance of the government, what with their fraudulent war, their oil company coddling, their secret investigations and assassinations (some figurative, some literal) of anyone who dares to speak against them, and on and on and on.

But what if one narrows it down to one issue? My first issue--the one that made me first realize how harmful this bunch was to me--was the fact that they are planning to use OUR children's lives to maintain their endless war(s). They are lying to young people to get them to enlist; they will need more and more warm bodies to keep up their endless war. It doesn't help when persons with views as disparate as those of Chuck Hagel and Charlie Rangel are BOTH demanding a draft. So if I only concentrate on the one issue--"do I want my kids to be killed for the neocons' failed, endless, war?"--then moving to another country becomes a viable plan. I'm assuming that not all countries will be forcing young people to go fight in George W. Bush's wars.

But I still haven't left. I still have hope that they won't start a draft. We shall see.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

205. Well, I agree with you there

the ONE thing that might encourage me to get my Canadian cousins to sponsor me up there would be a new draft, if I had young boys. I do have young grandchildren, but that isn't my decision to make.

I guess I have seen the pendulum swing a few times so I have faith it will come back. I remember the conservative Fifties, then the swingin' Sixties and Seventies. Next we get Reagan and it's back again, then Clinton and swish! Right back again. I believe that even Diebold won't be able to throw these elections coming up. Every dog has their day and it's our turn now.

[No Exit]

228. Thanks for the hope

And I sure hope you're right about what's coming up! I can't wait to see these bastards get theirs!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. You sound like a passionate, idealistic person

and very attuned to the life around you. I personally don't "deal" with the larger picture very much, finding it more beneficial to focus on family and work.

However, I do know that, for example, the obesity epidemic is rife in Europe, so you aren't going to get away from fat folks.

Les Pentes sounds lovely and the village appealing. And if you ever get in a pickel with an invasion, just give us a call and we'll be there. Because as concerned as we are with our own gross desires and largesse, we fill the hillsides of your adopted country with the flower of our youth, who gave their lives for a people not their own.

We, the rude, dispiriting debacle of a nation, wish you well and await your postcards.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

28. And I would like that add

that while I don't know your chosen vocation, I would think you could get work there as a writer of tourist materials...that "birthplace of socialism" stuff was awesome!

[NYCGirl]

29. A newbie who denigrates the US and longs to move back to France?

This post just stinks of something...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. I'm so damned trusting

I never stopped to hear the clip clop clip clop over the bridge.

Geez. I hear there are a lot of bridges in France.

[NYCGirl]

31. There's a lot of those under bridge dwellers here the past few days. NT

[ArmchairMeme]

38. Bonne Chance

[tlsmith1963]

32. Yeah, Did a Freeper Write It?

Although I wish I could move to Canada sometimes...sigh.

Tammy

[ptolle]

207. odds

What are the odds that there exists a freeper so knowledgeable of french geography and history?Though I can't verify it with absolute certainty I recall reading or seeing somewhere a Che Guevara quote about admiring the opposition in this country in that they(we) were fighting the fight in the heart of the tiger.I've just tried to arrange my life so that unqualifiedly amurca right or wrong segment of our society. That entails remaining true to my vision of what this country could and should be and working as best I can to realize that vision.So I'll stay and fight the fight in the heart of the tiger.

[nini]

88. EXACTLY

I thought the same thing.

[JVS]

131. THIS IS HUGH!!!111!!!!1!!11!!!

[seabeyond]

33. i dont know where you live that you see and feel this, but........

i know a lot of lot of people that are connected and love. and i have daily conversation with people all the time. my life isnt the picture you have created at all. i dont know many people on this board would agree that their life is how you describe either. which leads me to ask, what world are you living in?

if you are looking at the american people from the view of the media, which i can see your description easily, then that isnt a reality. it may lead someone to believe that is the reality how all us millions of people live, but it isnt.

wish you the best on your journey.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

56. That is quite maddening.

I, too, know a lot of people that are connected and love, but they live in the same bubble of comfort and overconsumption as every other American.

I think that the great "individualist" ideal of American culture has brought us to a sorry pass. We have become isolated from the world and each other - it is built into our infrastructure, with its broad, pedestrian-unfriendly streets, the whizzing cars, the little castles we retire to after work...

[seabeyond]

97. ya, but i have done, and am doing something about it.

i can see what you are saying, but i am not hopeless. i also understand how uniquely different we all are. i hate shopping, spending, buying comsuming. and i have always been this way. others are not that way. i see what they bring to the world. there thought process with gift. mine is not more right than the person that enjoys buying and giving. i have had to learn how to receive. i hate being given to. that alone is a lesson for me

the me me me you talk in buying vehicle, as an example. those that buy the monsters. they buy them for a lot of different reasons, all of them selfish, but different

i mean, this is not a simple thing, that is for sure.

yes we are all of those things. but

?????????

i just see more good, than not good

[RazzleDazzle]

99. Okay, I get it

I think that the great "individualist" ideal of American culture has brought us to a sorry pass. We have become isolated from the world and each other - it is built into our infrastructure, with its broad, pedestrian-unfriendly streets, the whizzing cars, the little castles we retire to after work...

While I think you have some good points in your first post, basically you are being critical of the U.S. for not being Europe. A little countgerproductive, wouldn't you say? Are you also critical of apples for not being bananas? Or oranges for not being figs?

There certainly are things we should be doing differently, but the U.S. will never be Europe. We have our own gifts and talents as a people and a nation -- and failings too, of course, some of which you correctly identify. So if Europe is what you need, by all means go back.

[Runcible Spoon]

102. all right. it's time for you to shut the fuck up, go back to France

and learn to listen to the pleas of your disenfranchised Muslim populations. When you CAN do that, come back to the US and bash us. We're not perfect. There are grains of truth to what you say. Rather than tuck tail, I would rather stay here and fight for what I believe in, and learn to love my country again. Au revoir, your ignorance and stereotyping are no better than the standard Freeper fare.

[seabeyond]

106. kinda harsh and at first repulsed me a bit, then....

i continued to read. and yes i hear what you say. i guess the very basis of what i learn is this, is............to listen. and begin doing jsut what this poster says we lack. interesting

[Runcible Spoon]

110. thanks Seabeyond!

I'm sorry to be so short-fused but I get extremely angry seeing posters like the OP stirring us up so s/he can sit from a distance and watch us implode and run back (to Freepland? who knows) and giggle about how much DUers hate the US blah blah blah. and if the OP really was sincere, well s/he does nothing than reinforce the stereotype of elitist French snob which I have been fighting on France's behalf since I was old enough to know what was going on. All I ask is that s/he do the same for the US-being on DU should be evidence enough of the intelligence, culture, wit, pride, love, dignity, and compassion that Americans (and our friends abroad) still possess.

[seabeyond]

113. yes

i have been kinda there last couple days on how the board is creating those of us with family that totally embrace, love, cherish our rituals and traditions of christmas. so full of love and family.

and to have it be dismissed so easily with bad me, shame on me for commercialism and materialism. surely, it can be more than that.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

121. My friends say I am too harsh on America.

"You are a young country," they say, "Give it time to learn, like we did."

But I do not have two thousand years, and in my estimation that is approximately how long it will take to undo the uncivil infrastructure we have created. Can the American people be faulted for remaining asleep or for being propagandized into oblivion? My answer is a resounding YES!

DU is the exception that proves the rule - it is an anomaly, a voice crying in the wilderness, and a poor substitute for a strong tradition of public discourse.

You know, during the long run-up to the vote on the EU constitution, damn near every bar and public space sponsored in-depth discussions and lectures Oui or Non, all heavily attended, all points of view represented, all issues hashed out. such a thing does not happen here, even during times of great need. The same thing has happened over the recent riots in Paris, Lyon, and Toulouse - even as we speak, there are gatherings all over the country to ponder the lessons learned and the task ahead.

I joke to my American friends that the first thing you are likely to hear from a French citizen is "I don't think so!"

[Runcible Spoon]

133. I seriously doubt you have been to every corner of this country

or seen all of the encouraging signs that indicate that the US is on teh verge of an epiphany. WE were THERE in Washington DC, in NYC, everywhere, marching in history's biggest demonstrations. It took a few years, years during which we suffered as we were labeled radicals, anti-patriots, conspiracy theorists as we cried to bring the troops home. And now- the fucking pig of a president that we have has his arm twisted behind his back, twisted there by our people who are finally beginning to wake up. Yes, you are free to judge us because we don't have 2,000 years to grow up but anyone who has studied globalization will realize that time speeds up as space shrinks; we are all in this together and running off to France is not going to do the WORLD any good if we are to enact change in the US.

[fearnobush]

186. Thank You!

Sounds like a ragin' French Freeper.

[confludemocrat]

143. Come on, m. red ant, it won't be as passioning there to fight the fight

as good as it is there in many ways.

[Redstone]

154. What you mean "we?"

I think you gave up your right to use the term "we" about the moment you clicked the "submit" button at the end of your original post.

Go away, then, would you? Or do you want to stay around and insult us some more? Because if you want to, I'll be here to fight you some more.

Redstone

[Fla Dem]

201. Oh for heaven sakes, just pack your bags and go to your

quaint little French village, where I assume they have no electronic toys, (TV's, ipods, cell phones, computers, etc), where the men tip their chapeaus to all the women, people speak civilly to one another, where the kids are bright-eyed, well scrubbed, well mannered, and highly educated, where there are no drugs or fast food. Go to where the women are all thin, make their own clothes, ignore current fashion, don't shop in malls and don't shave under their arms. Where the men are all robust but fit, don't cheat on their wives, and take a shared responsibility in raising their kids. Go to where you grow your own food, provide for your own needs, and no poverty exists. Go to where there is no discrimination, civil unrest or corrupt government. Go to where there is shared wealth and corporations don't care about profits.

If you can find that quaint little village then by all means just go, and take along all the other America basher with you. :hi:

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

215. So you have been to Croix Rousse! n/t

[Fla Dem]

218. Good, you found it...Bon Voyage !! n/t

[Clarkie1]

231. It's not just America, my friend.

It's all of Western civilization. The problems you describe are not endemic to America.

Edit: exhibit A would be the recent mass riots in France. There is injustice everywhere.

[passy]

34. Good luck!

And when you come down from the hill have a kebab for me in Rue d'Algerie.

[Paradise]

35. i'm not being sarcastic, really...

but did you come here to du, in particular, just to tell us that??? :shrug: just asking...

[deutsey]

44. Yeah, I really feel honored the OP would join just to announce

they're leaving. Bon voyage.

:eyes:

[Laurab]

152. I was wondering the same thing...it's like

why would I CARE? Why would I want a postcard? Go wherever you want to go, enjoy yourself, but why post it here? I don't even know why I'm in this thread, except for some reason it must have been on the greatest page. :shrug:

[fishnfla]

36. Adieu to all that!

I just love bathing in manic self loathing in the morning! Its all Alexander Hamilton's fault!

:thumbsdown: The only reason I'd ever visit France, would be to pay tribute to our sons, brothers and fathers who lay their bodies down on her shores never to return.

Other than that, I believe the expression is "beh, non"

[Pharaoh]

37. Don't let the door hit ya

Where the good lord split ya!

Wimp!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

39. The French are grateful.

Did anyone see, last year, the celebration of D-Day, there on the beach of Normandy? It was a powerful tribute to all the nations who collaborated in that effort and sacrifice - a gripping spectacle, complete with a re-enactment of the "Debarquement", as they call it. Once, standing in the lobby of a hotel in Greece, a (typically) small, 68 year-old woman recognized me as an American and immediately gave me the biggest, warmest hug I have ever gotten from a stranger. She recounted how, when she was a girl in 1944, after living in fear and extreme poverty under Nazi rule for 4 years, her town in northern France was liberated by American dogfaces. She said "He was so huge, and dirty, and smelled awful, and he picked me up and swung me around and said something I could not understand. I was so scared that I kicked and screamed until he put me down, and so happy I cried with joy." She was crying by the time she finished, and so was I.

I really like the way they honor their dead soldiers, as well...about every fifty meters or so, in just about every city and town, placards and statues mark the places their heroes (and ours) fell.

I think the notion that The French are arrogant has some merit, but it is overblown. It is probably based on the fact that most American vistors only ever visit Paris, and your average Frenchman thinks Parisians are arrogant, too!

Last year, the newspapers there were buzzing that the national rate of obesity was approaching 4%! Imagine that!

[fishnfla]

41. And unlike yourself, those boys never gave up eom

[wookie294]

48. Those boys' offspring gave up

Most Americans gave up on America. Why should anybody fight for it?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

81. How nice that they are grateful

and I have not doubted "their" gratefulness and I don't require any homage for my parents' generation.

"They" are not the ones coming onto an American political site and trashing the habits, morality, worthiness of the country and culture.

With your attitude, we really don't need you here. We need people of strength, of steadfastness who can look through the bad times and see the possibilities because this country is NOT the administration. I would suggest that if your future compatriots had shared your willingness to cut and run that the French Revolution would never have happened and King Louis the whatever would be on the throne.

I predict that you will take your problem, (which is really an inward problem, mistakenly outwardly focussed) to France and in short months will be as angst filled and dissatisfied as you are now, because no culture is superior to another; they all have their strengths and weaknesses. An emotionally mature person learns to celebrate the former and work toward alleviating the latter.

And I also have to ask, did you sign up for DU just to trash us and take your toys and go home?

[lonestarnot]

43. Adidamndios!

[deutsey]

45. In the spirit of the French Resistance, I'm staying to fight the fascists

:hi:

[RandomKoolzip]

47. Huh...a newbie, going to "Socialist" "France," who pours scorn on the US..

Anyone else's "WTF" bells going off right now?

[G_j]

50. as soon as I saw your post

I figured a good number of replies would be calling you a coward or worse.
I was right of course. Some people actually suffer from the delusion that they are some sort of modern day revolutionaries fighting for America with incredible courage and integrity. Of course there are many people who REALLY ARE but they are NOT the ones attacking you from behind a keyboard.

BTW, Freepers as a rule, can't write that well.

[RandomKoolzip]

55. Ever read some of the stuff the protestwarrior.com dudes dribble out?

Quite well-written.

[G_j]

58. no I haven't

of course there are always exceptions.
As for the OP, I didn't catch any freeper talking points.

I've watched this for a number years here. Every time somebody states they are thinking of leaving the country, out come the soap box preachers.

[RandomKoolzip]

61. It's not just the "leaving the country" bit...

It's the hewing of liberal stereotypes. Going to France, the supposed birthplace of "Socialism", because they don't like America.....Sounds a bit too pat, dunnit? "One stop shopping" and all?

[G_j]

70. not really

I think he/she pushed some buttons because they stated they want to leave the country. I have never seen a post at DU on this subject where the person was not attacked.

on edit: here is a 'pat answer':
"don't let the door hit you..."
now THAT is lanquage that a freeper can understand!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

86. You said "he pushed some buttons because he stated...

that he wanted to leave the country." And you accuse DU of "attacking" him.

Had it only been a statement that he was moving, you would have a point. But he posted the following:

"The American people are too fat and lazy, concerned with their own gross desires and largesse, for me to ever feel "at home" here again. I am disgusted to the Nth degree by the whole character of American society, from bottom to top and side to side."

Now correct me if I am wrong, but the "whole character of American society, from bottom to top and side to side" is pretty darned inclusive. He trashed left, right, mothers, fathers, children. And you counter that DU has attacked HIM?

No, when you lead with a punch you are going to get one in return.

[G_j]

95. point taken

Discussion of the "character of American society" as it is depicted, is certainly reasonable.

However, a simple statement about a desire to leave the country will inevitably get you attacked here by some (& some do not represent DU, actually nobody does) As I said, I've seen dozens of posts on this subject over the last few years and that is just the way it goes.

But yes, discussing some of the specific points of the OP, I have no problem with. I apologize if I lumped it all together.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

104. Thanks for broadening your perspective on this

it's a pleasure to have a discussion with someone who actually reads what you wrote!

[leanin_green]

155. Nice to see someone who can hold an open dialogue.

Who is willing to amend thoughts held in the face of a stronger arguement. A truly LIBERAL mind.

[G_j]

178. well

I was acknowledging that there are a couple of separate issues which I was not being clear about: the reality that anyone who expresses a desire to move out of the US will be attacked by some people, AND the specific objections to the OP's harsh judgment of American society.

The second issue is certainly worth discussion. I personally was not offended by it, but I understand how another might strongly disagree. I actually think it is worth while to ask ourselves difficult questions about who and what we are/have become.

However, I have a very low opinion (putting it nicely) of those who jump on anyone for simply wanting to leave the country. I have witnessed people simply asking about immigration options being bombarded with the "don't let the door hit you.." crap with no other input.
I am a reasonable and diplomatic person, but I am sick to death of self righteous jerks passing judgment on people whose life and circumstances they know nothing about.

My mistake was reacting strongly without being clear enough about what I was reacting to.

[leanin_green]

180. I've seen and have been on the receiving end of some of those attacks

on other issues. There seems to be a lot of that here lately. Which really makes me wonder just how "progressive" many people are on this site. Progressive, another issue I can't get behind. I'm a liberal, always will be a liberal, and never would I define myself as a progressive. In a word, Progress is to continue, evolve or move forward, a going or getting ahead. It sounds good on the surface. But what if you don't like where your progressing to? I don't know, I believe adopting the moniker of Progressive is just knuckling under to all the Liberal bashing that has taken place of over the years. Me, I'm a Liberal.

Anyway, I just wanted to encourage your "Liberal-minded" approach. We need more open-minded, non-judgemental, accepting and broad-minded people here at DU. Oh wait, I just described a Liberal!

[G_j]

183. I think it depends on one's history

as for the choice of semantics. I actually think of progressive as being further left than liberal. Perhaps in part because I was very much influenced by the music of Phil Oches when I was young (who wrote the rather cynical "Love me I'm a Liberal") This was actually pre-Reagan (who started the RW demonizing of the "the L word").
I've always thought of myself as a progressive but it really boils down to what definitions we have lodged in our brains. :-)
It doesn't take too long to understand if you are on the same page with somebody. Whatever you call yourself, I am glad to work with you if we share positive, humanitarian values!

[leanin_green]

187. Well then, I'll take your hand in that endeavor.

:pals: We do share those values(even though I've become more and more wary of many of the humans). :hide:

[Seabiscuit]

98. Indeed. It's pathetic that there are actually France-bashers on DU.

Have those DU'ers here bashing France ever paused to reflect that it was the Busheviks that started that crap as a form of scapegoating to deflect attention from their illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of the sovereign nation of Iraq?????

WTF is wrong with some people on DU? Sounds like a friggin' freeper invasion.

If the original poster is so disgusted with American politics and culture that he's leaving for foreign shores, that's something that should be completely understood with sympathy if not empathy on DU. How many of us entertained the notion immediately following the 2004 election? I'd venture to guess that it was a huge majority here.

So how in the name of humanity can anyone on DU bash this poster and his alternate country of choice simply because in his experience he's so fed up and disgusted that he can no longer imagine a good reason not to leave? I must say I've felt the same way many times, but I my life is such right now I am very firmly dug in, like it or not, and don't have the luxury of leaving.

Anyone who's ever lived in France for years as I have would be appalled at the wilfully ignorant France-bashing evident in this thread. Shame on those who've indulged in it publicly here. Tell it to Wolfowitz, Rove, Rush, et. al. Don't tire our eyeballs with that bilge.

[Runcible Spoon]

103. this is completely unfair.

listen, France may be closer to our socialist ideals and all, but they have some SERIOUS issues with xenophobia and racism esp. considering the recent riots. To point out actual problems in France is NOT bashing them. And yes, I recognize the poster's frustration with US consumerism but it is by NO means strictly an American issue, yet we have to ifght it where we see it. For us to sit here and idealize France is just as useful as a bunch of Freepers waving American flags and "Remember 9/11" bumper stickers.

[Seabiscuit]

119. No one is idealizing France in this thread. But several posters have

been more than blatant in posting a lot of hateful France-bashing crap that is totally uncalled for and totally irrelevant to the theme of the thread, which is leaving this country out of disgust for what it has become.

[Runcible Spoon]

127. is that REALLY the theme of this thread?

I guess my old fashioned American cynicism is getting the best of me :eyes:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

107. A poster can't come here and totally trash our culture

up, down, and side to side, and not expect to be countered.

Had he come and just said he no longer felt at home here, and intended to go to France, fine. But I am sorry, I just have too much self-pride to simply nod my head and agree.

You say the responses have been France bashing but what do you say to this statement? "The American people are too fat and lazy, concerned with their own gross desires and largesse, for me to ever feel "at home" here again. I am disgusted to the Nth degree by the whole character of American society, from bottom to top and side to side."

This post was flamebait, pure and simple. DU might currently be "the loyal opposition" but we are Americans.

[Seabiscuit]

118. You took it as flamebait. I took it as sincere disgust.

But regardless of one's perspective on the OP's choice of words (gross exaggerations amounting to an emotional outburst, for sure, but an understandable outburst, as there's far more than an ounce of truth in his words), there is no excuse for some of the France-bashing I've seen in some of the posts in this thread.

I personally don't share your "self-pride" that "we are Americans". I have never understood the feeling of nationalism, patriotism, etc. I personally just don't feel it and never have. To me it's fakery, always exploited by the warmongers who have usurped power in this country from time to time through history.

I too count myself as an "internationalist". I am also a "Constitutionalist" who values that document and the intellectual rigor our forefathers put together in creating it above all else in this country. But that has never translated to some mushy - salute-the-flag "I'm so proud and thankful to be an American" sentimental poop for me.

I have no problem with people objecting to the OP's over-generalizations about Americans. I have no problem with his disgust. I have no problem with his socialism (although I am not a socialist myself). I have no problem with the country he's chosen to move to or his particular affinity for Lyon, which appeals to his socialist beliefs. If I ever expatriate, I would express myself differently about it, but so what - I understand his disgust.

So I understand someone objecting to his choice of words. What I don't understand is some posters seeing that as an opportunity to bash France in general, unless they happen to just be freeping this thread.

[G_j]

134. "internationalist" here also

I really have no "dog in that hunt" and don't feel defensive about harsh criticisms of where our "culture" has found itself.
I understand how some might, but I personally think there are very few positive things that are valued in our culture these days.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

135. I guess we will have to agree to disagree

because I am proud to be American. Perhaps it is my study of my own geneology that helps me frame this pride. My grandfather never grew to more than five feet tall because he rarely saw the outside of the mines near Liverpool until he came to America as a teenager. Another great grand arrived at 16 from Ireland with all her belongings in a bag and worked in service for 10 years and then started her own dressmaking business and never had to wait on anyone again. My husband's father came here after WWII as a German Jew who was conscripted by the Nazis and had to hide his ethnicity (his father was a non-practicing Jew) for fear of the camps. And when he came here in 55, only 10 years after the war, he was welcomed by his former enemies and flourished, becoming with hard work a rather wealthy man. I have an uncle whose own grandfather was born into slavery who turned his 40 acres into a 500 acre parcel along the St. John's River.

I am not an internationalist by any means, because my people came here to escape servitude, famine, the rubble of Europe and child labor. I am well aware of our excesses as a culture, but I believe we represent a positive thing: a melting pot, a cliche' but so true. We are strong mongrels and our present situation is just a step backwards in a long, long history of steps forward.

[NYCGirl]

137. Bravo! Beautifully said.

My grandparents came to this country to escape the pogroms in Russia, and there were still enough of my family in Europe to lose most of one generation in Auschwitz.

[Proud liberal Kat]

161. I'm sorry

but it is ok to show sheer disgust for our own country, but not to bash another...both are a problem, if not based in fact. But why do you understand his disgust here, but not people's possible issues with France? Both were put forth a bit off the cuff and not thouroughly intellectually?

I have a lot of issues with where my own country stands today, but yes I stand up for my country (and myself) when thouroughly repudiated as a disgusting culture. I would be all over it if someone called a Middle Eastern culture disgusting, why should I allow my own to be called such?
Kat

[TallahasseeGrannie]

192. Eloquently said

for some reason Democrats (sometimes) engage in that old self-flagellation thing. Odd for a basically secular viewpoint. I wonder what leads to that sort of behavior? We are not worthy!

[Seabiscuit]

211. I do not know of any Democrats who are "self-flagellating", and I don't

see either criticism of what's been going wrong in our country or disillusionment or finally utter disgust at how bad things have gotten as "flagellating" one's self, but rather as legitimate concern in one form or another over the destruction of our economy, military, social institutions and historic values wrought by the right-wingers in power.

Criticism and dissent are patriotic actions - serbservience with a false sense of patriotism to whatever powers happen to control the government during any age is treasonous and anti-democratic, according to the founding fathers, Roosevelt, etc., etc., and I agree with them about that.

Jimmy Carter even wrote a piece recently about no longer recognizing the country he grew up in, the neocons have done so much damage by now.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

212. I have met (virtually) quite a few on this board alone

who can find absolutely nothing redeeming about the United States. Not constructive criticism but total pessimism, total negativity. Everyone is a crook, everyone is evil, everyone is a racist (the ultimate progressive insult).

I'm not talking "criticism and dissent" and denying they are patriotic. I wouldn't waste time on DU if I didn't believe that. And I have absolutely no false sense of patriotism. My patriotism is pragmatic. I am proud of the things our country has gotten right and I am hopeful for the things we still need to work on. There is no culture, no country, no race, no ethnicity, who has ever gotten it all right. And there never will be. Such is humanity.

My patriotism also has absolutely nothing to do with "whatever powers happen to control the government." Administrations come and they go. Five short years ago we had a man I consider one of the best presidents yet. Eight years before that, not so good. My patriotism revolves around the fact that we have found a system that works for us as far as the orderly transfer of power, legislation and justice. Is it perfect? No. Has it been abused? Of course. But I will state that it is as good as any in history so far, that I am aware of.

Human beings are unique in many ways, and one way I have noticed is a tendency to ruminate and catastrophize. All is lost. We are not worthy. This propensity has resulted in some interesting phenomena like self-flagellation, the concept of original sin (the original 'we are not worthy folks", and even mutates itself into masochism. I don't know why we do it, but we do.

And sometimes we do it here.

My opinion, yours obviously differs and I agree to disagree.

[Seabiscuit]

222. I'd be the last person to question your sense of patriotism...

but perhaps we read this board differently.

Where you see posters you deem to exhibit "total pessimism, total negativity", I see posters in a down mood - I've seen some of the same posters who look really negative in one post being very constructive in others. And perhaps you're exaggerating just a wee bit when you say such posters claim "Everyone is a crook, everyone is evil, everyone is a racist (the ultimate progressive insult)"?

For instance, were I to say that "our system (which you say is a 'system that works for us') is broken" or "has broken down" while commenting on two stolen elections and the lack of any effective opposition in Congress to what I might deem to be a "criminal cabal", would you consider what I'm saying to be totally pessimistic and totally negative, and that I see everyone as a crook and evil and racist?

If so, you would be misreading me. Were I to post something with that kind of language my intent would merely be to identify a problem, and my words would be chosen merely to emphasize how extremely serious I consider the problem to be.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

223. I am definitely guilty of hyperbole

in my "everyone is a crook," etc.

Now, I have not yet gotten to know certain folks enough to see a pattern of angst and then constructive comment, but I will take your word on that and I agree everyone deserves to have a down day.

Now I'm thinking about how I would interpret "our system is broken" or "has broken down." I think that I would probably interpret that as it needs to be fixed rather than scrapped.

I'm going to really open myself up for flaming here. I think that Democrats, in general, are instrospective people and (stepping into fireproof underwear) tend to depression. I have NO IDEA whether this is true or borne out by any research..it is just my observation. The other side appear to be determined to be happy, even if they have to talk themselves into it.

And what I have been trying to express, however inartfully, is that human beings sometimes suffer from heavy duty levels of guilt, for some even self-loathing. I enjoy stepping back sometimes and looking at patterns like that, and I know that back in the Middle Ages, humans didn't feel they were worth much, hence the concept of salvation, original sin, etc. It is interesting to me that even with all the changes in our culture in so many years, there are some elements of our humanity that don't change, but take different forms.

I probably took too many anthropology courses in grad school.

[Seabiscuit]

236. I understand and basically agree...

I have the same interpretation as you about the "our system is broken" bit. It's a great system, and there are times such as these when it is out of balance, and definitely needs fixing, not scrapping.

I don't want to generalize too much about Democrats, but yes, DU can on certain days, or at least in certain threads appear pretty gloomy -after all, these are rather depressing times we're living in. But for every down post I tend to see some rather upbeat posts - it doesn't seem to take much in the way of positive news to get a lot of DU'ers seemingly jumping for joy. Which could be another sign of depression for all we know.

I know I was so depressed after the 2004 election I spent a year in the Lounge to escape all the political stuff. I only ventured back into GD, GD Politics and other current event forums about 6 months ago. Working on Francine Busby's campaign for the 50th Congressional seat (my district) has lifted my spirits a bit.

I don't think anyone can study too much anthropology, btw. :)

[Seabiscuit]

209. If you think about it, the distinction should be obvious to you:

The OP lives here and is so disgusted he's decided to leave and move to France.

That's why his expression of disgust with the U.S. is relevant and appropriate.

The OP does *not* live in France, he's only planning to move there. That's why any expression of disgust for France would be irrelevant and inappropriate.

France-bashing has no place in this thread (or on DU at all), and is particularly odious because all the recent (beginning in early 2003) France bashing in this country was a pathetic diversion created by the neocons, Rove, Wolfowitz, et. al., to set France up as a strawman and scapegoat because France had the balls to stand up to Bush and threaten to veto any proposed UN resolution offered by Bush to invade Iraq. Remember "freedom fries"?

Therefor any DU'er indulging in the kind of France-bashing that has been evident in this thread is doing the freepers' dirty work for them, and I find it very troubling that *any* DU'er would stoop to that kind of stupidity.

[leanin_green]

159. Though I hold with your arguement in some respects. I also would add

I too feel some of the disgust the the OP has expressed. Problem is, as an American, I am guilty of some of what he has said. And, as an American, at this time in our history I am at a loss as to how to do anything about it. I no longer believe in what is projected as my country's ideals. In truth, I still believe in the first ideal, the constant struggle to be free. The only thing that keeps me hopeful is the belief that this country is always in a state of becoming. To make definitive statements about who we are as a nation is foolhardy. We are still trying to find out just what it means to be free. We haven't perfected freedom, but we have abused it.

[Lorien]

108. I agree Seabiscuit

I only had to read the first line to know that there would eventually be a half dozen of more of the ever popular and completely unoriginal "don't let the door hit you in the ass" remarks (*yawn*), but the French bashing is a bit unexpected. Have these people visited France? Did they read the line about being a citizen of the world first and foremost? Where is it written that one must be 100% loyal to one's nation of birth, forsaking all the other possibilities life has to offer?

In my experience, people who expose themselves to different cultures and experiences often have a clearer outlook on the world.Sadly, most will never have the means to travel or live in another country, but I admire those who can and are able to pick and chose which nation they call home. Every country has it's pluses and minuses, and I don't see why anyone should be condemned for speaking honestly about their views of the pros and cons of the places they've called home. We all complain on this board about the mess our country is in, but how many are really doing something to change things? What, exactly, is everyone doing who "stays to fight"? If you are fighting from your keyboard, then you can participate in the battle from any place in the world.

[RandomKoolzip]

117. For god's sake, for the last time....It's NOT the French bashing that's an

issue here!

The OP has neatly packaged ALL the negative stereotypes many conservatives hold about liberals in one tidy post. If a moderate were to venture upon this board and read it, he or she would have many of his or her unfortunate ideas about liberals confirmed; It's almost as if someone had posted "I'm a proud Klansman, and I'm tired of the inclusiveness of the modern GOP. It's time to make the republican party racially pure!" on Free Republic: It's about the hewing of partisan stereotypes in order to gain a reaction.

Re-read the OP again, and tell me if this wouldn't look PERFECT on the front page of Rush Limbaugh's website.

In other words: flamebait.

[Seabiscuit]

122. I don't know what post you're reading, but the OP's comments would

NOT look "PERFECT on the front page of Rush Limbaugh's website". The OP wasn't using conservative vs. liberal language - he was expressing personal disgust with some aspects of American culture which sound like stereotypes by his choice of words (exaggeration, over-generalization), but which ring absolutely true when describing American culture in general. Sure, we all know not all Americans fit his description, but there are far too many Americans who do.

For the record, I am the one making France-bashing an issue. Just look at some of the anti-French posts in this thread. They're despicable and utterly ucalled for and irrelevant.

[RandomKoolzip]

125. You're thinking about this from a sympathetic perspective.

That's fine.

Now, just as an exercise, re-read the OP from the perspective of a freeper or a right-leaning moderate, one who bristles at certain buzzwords like "France" and "Socialism."

[Seabiscuit]

129. I don't know why I should do that, but your post doesn't make much

sense - if I were a freeper who bristles at words like "France" or "Socialist" I'd be calling the OP a damned Liberal pinko-commie peacenik tree-hugging French-loving traitor, not someone who should be on the front page of Rush's websight.

[RandomKoolzip]

130. Um...exactly.

Now: think of the words "stealth" and "parody."

[Seabiscuit]

126. Thank you, Lorien, for your sane insight.

[Greyhound]

51. Hear, hear. Good for you.

Care to sponsor a future ex-pat?

[stepnw1f]

53. Hello My French Brother

Don't leave... we need all the good people to fight for the grand prize. That's Democracy. The WORLD can't afford to lose this fight. Stay.

Use your photography to fight back. I am trying with my art as well. We are the majority, so do not become dispirited by the mindless dwarfs of morality, that seem to inhabit every news channel we have.

FIGHT!

Besides... I need a friend in France so I have a place to stay when I visit mother Europe!

[tabasco]

57. Where ya' gonna go when you give up on France? n/t

59. Good luck to you in France

I have never been to Europe, but I hear they are much more open about life, not so repressed as in America. I do think though that everywhere you go, it is the haves and have nots. In America though there is the possibility of going from having nothing to having much materially.

Like Carlos Castenada said in some of his books though, if you are poor, you may actually be experiencing life more richly than someone who has a lot of money.

I haven't made sense of America myself. I feel racism comes from all directions and so does classism. To just be educated puts you neither here nor there. Oh well, in the end I must believe in the soul's growth regardless of social milieu.

Au revoir, au Wiedersehen.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

64. I agree with you!

I think national identity is a red herring to distract the masses from the real battleground - rich v. poor.

Much is made of the possibility that one can rise up economically in the U.S., but my question is, at what price?

By the way, I like the photograph! Looks like a view of the Saone from Fourvier Hill..Oui?

[Gregorian]

60. Exactly how I feel. Thank you.

Only I can't leave. I've tried. I don't qualify for immigration without a special situation.

Your words are mine. Almost to the letter.

I've done my best to escape the American madness, by abandoning everything, and fleeing to the country. But they are following. Expanding. Right now, I'm in a corner.

Wish me luck.

[G_j]

62. a bit OT, but many African American jazz and blues musicians

as well as other artists have moved to France over the years to escape American racism.
somewhat of a tradition...

[leeroysphitz]

63. Your thoughts about this nation boiled down to one sentence.

America: Love it or leave it. Only you are at the end of the spectrum opposite to the flag waving yahoos who are unable to say it quite as eloquently as you do. Congratulations! You've just managed to post a very tired, old cliche without getting completely flamed.

I don't know that I see the point to posts such as yours otherwise. If your truly going, out of a sense of disgust for this nation and it's people, why go out with such a self-important flourish? Why preen for the attention of those that you loath?

P.S. I believe they have "Le Big Mac" in France as well.

[Gregorian]

69. Do I sense jealousy?

[leeroysphitz]

72. Not if you THINK you are sensing it from me...

But who knows WHAT you sense? Or from whom.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

75. Wish I had thought of that...

It would have been quicker and easier.

I am not sure what the point is, either, but as it is the first thread I have ever started, I thought I would let people know where I am coming from, and where I am going.

And why... it is deeply personal, a matter of the heart.

The most ubiquitous hamburger joints in France are the "Quick" establishments - even worse than McDonalds, but they don't supersize anything for you, or offer you a 64 ounce coke to wash it down.

[leeroysphitz]

77. "Wish I had thought of that..."

Personally I'm quite sure you did. JMO

[Inland]

136. Why? Because chauvinism is fun when put in someone's face.

After all, just plain leaving doesn't allow for the dramatic and, as you put it, self important, gesture of letting us know that he considers an entire country beneath him.

It's fun, most of all, because it puts people in either the position to apologize to the extent the accusations are true (yeah, americans are fat, I'm SO SORRY you had to see it) or to get mad to the extent they are false (calling Americans lazy from the land of the 35 hour work week).

Bottom line is, everyone has a place they want to call home, and the OP finds it in France, and only a complete dunce would see that as some sort of moral declaration or require a manifesto. He should go to france and have himself a decent baguette, see a pointless movie, smoke whereever he wants and make plans for the seventh or eight republic during les vacances: nobody likes a know it all expatriot.

[leeroysphitz]

140. You are correct. it is fun....

That said you are also correct in saying the OP can and should live where and how he/ she chooses. I get it. If I decide to move across town because the new location has a better school district I don't expect my neighbors to give me hell and tell me I'm a coward for not "sticking it out" to stay and "fight" to improve the school district I currently live in.

At the same time, however, I'm not going to go out, days before I move and put fliers out up and down my block telling my neighbors that I'm leaving because of how unpleasant I find them and their neighborhood to be...

I wish the OP well where ever life takes him/ her but in this post he/ she comes off as something of a twit.

[leftofthedial]

65. could you get me a beer before you go?

and watch out for that screen door.

[Straight Shooter]

67. I wish you well.

You are a photographer and have a magnificent way of painting pictures with words. May I suggest that you engage in a bit of photojournalism when you go to France? Even if it borders on the fantasy, as all dreams do, it is lovely to contemplate that for a while we may escape the everyday existence and find a life which resembles forward motion instead of a treadmill.

I am also disillusioned with living in America, but have recognized that disillusionment is part of my nature. As my mother used to say, wherever you go, there you are. :)

[ooglymoogly]

68. quel dommage

french food, french wine, the french countryside and the live and let live attitude of the french i envy you. shrub has decimated whatever is left of the american dream and turned it into a murkin nightmare.

[northerdar]

74. I understand full well what you are saying.

I am American born and naturalized Canadian. I came up Woodstock 1969 weekend with my deserter husband who had his orders for Viet Nam. He was CO, denied , then Dodge Dodger - jailed. Highest scorer in his induction tests (after 3 weeks of jail with extradition from Key West to Toledo in store he said he would join). He always kept the Justice Dept informed of his whereabouts. FBI visited him once before picking him up the day he got out of hospital for injury on job. (his employer didn't want to pay the hospital bill so called them) He was 2nd highest score man in his battalion for basic. Wanted to be something other than carry a gun. Instead assigned to AIT and then Viet Nam. His sargent in his AIT said go to Canada. Sargent just came back from Nam. So we did and had two sons and lived happily in Canada. He got his other than honorable discharge under Carter's amnesty. We went to the Pentagon with lawyers to dispute it. Denied. Very interesting place the pentagon. We stayed in Canada, where he died in 2001, 17 months after our 2nd born died.. both of Cancer. We didn't pay a cent for their treatment or drugs. They got the best care in the world. Before he died we watched the chads being counted. The last election my older son and I voted for the 1st time in the American Election. I once thought of retiring in the Keys. NEVER NOW. BUSH has killed AMerica. America will NEVER recover. IT is held lock stock and barrel by the elite and the corporations. I have Freeper Bush loving relatives who I shall never see again. I am ashamed of them. Go live in peace in France and be happy. To Everyone else, I say come to Canada ...We have had Trudeau, Chretian and Martin who stood up against the American corrupt leaders. I shall be active in the Canadian coming election to keep Harper, Bush's mini mee from gaining power. Canadians are not elitist and most hate W BUsh.

[G_j]

109. I was also a rejected CO during the Vietnam war

despite lots of draft counseling, letters from ministers, teachers etc.

I stalled the process with a student deferment for a few years (lottery #34)
I eventually convinced an army shrink I would refuse to cooperate.
and recieved a psychological deferment for a year. In the mean time the draft was ended. I count myself extremely lucky.

I was ready to go to Canada. I would have dearly missed friends and family, but I have been to Canada many times and like it very much.

I am so sorry about your losses. Thanks so much for sharing your story!

[the other one]

78. Hee-hee! More for me!

Just kidding. I'd go too, but it is up to us to do what we can, especially my friend, when the shit hits the fan.

[name not needed]

79. Ok. Don't let le door hit you in le ass on the way out.

[ThatsMyBarack]

82. I've been to Lyon, France myself....

....during Xmastime. Really beautiful! Joyeuses Fetes! :hi:

[Angry Girl]

85. Salut, mon vieux!

Je te comprends completement! Le reve americain n'existe plus depuis quelques temps - le reste n'etait qu'une grande illusion Hollywoodienne. En plus, on mange bien a Lyon! Pour moi, mon 'ptit reve sera dans les forets au nord de Vancouver! :-)

Ciao, petite fourmie, et bonne chance!
La cigale. :hi:

URGENT! Timing is critical to save earthquake victims before winter!

[petgoat]

87. Spend some time in Davis, Berkeley, San Francisco,

Santa Cruz, Eugene, and Seattle. And take a look around this country
(Nevada, Missouri, Chicago, NYC) before you go. Too bad the harvest
season is over--farm labor is a good way to get to know the people. You
might change your mind about leaving.

[MarsThe Cat]

89. your leaving will make it that much less of a rude place...bon voyage-

you pompous pos.

[Obamarama]

92. I'm right behind you, LFR.

I have no idea whether you are a troll trying to scare up a chuckle as many here have conjectured, or a truly disgruntled American who is intent on expatriating him/her self.

Whatever may be the case, you very nearly hit the nail on the head in terms of capturing my sentiments. These words rang very true with me:

"The American people are too fat and lazy, concerned with their own gross desires and largesse..."

and:

"We are separated by broad avenues and speeding cars, and the incessant demands and manufactured needs of a consumer society. We work too much and love too little..."

We seem to pride ourselves on being the best of everything, particularly when it comes to education. Yet, so many in this country have absolutely no clue as to what brand of peril democracy is in at the hands of the nincompoops running our government. You know the old adage about being doomed to repeat the mistakes of history? Well, if as a society we are too stupid and misinformed about our history - recent and not so recent - how can we possibly know we are being led down a snakehole?

As a society we are more interested in the fact that Nick and Jessica are getting divorced than what's happening elsewhere in the world, especially Iraq. We're more interested in trampling over one another at 5 a.m. at Wal-Mart the day after Thanksgiving rather than spending the morning together as a family and perhaps sharing a leisurely breakfast. And don't even get me started on the culture war.

If I thought my fellow Americans were capable of waking up and connecting the dots and getting pissed off enough to demand change, I'd be willing to stay. But sadly, I doubt they are...at least not enough of them. As a society, we have become like a pack of barnyard pigs: too busy slopping at the trough of corporate America to see the butcher's truck coming up the road.

I wish you "bonne chance" and I hope to join you one day in France or in some other EU nation whose social values are more closely aligned with mine than those of the country of my birth.

[Maraya1969]

162. You have said a lot of untruths also. Most people in this country

realize that our education system is failing. Born Again Christians are not the only ones homeschooling anymore.

And I resent you saying that we AS A PEOPLE care more for whatthefuckeverNickandJessica than other more important things in the world.

I can tell from reading on this forum that we have a huge group of overly sensitive people here who care and cry and try to make a difference. You won't find any ENRON executive types here but you might just happen on some very wealthy people. And you won't know it because that is not what we are about and therefore our "social status" is a non issue.


What matters to us is the poor people we have let down in New Orleans and Mississippi. What matters is the people dying in Pakistan and the fact that we kept that post up and locked so people could continue to see it and send money and the fact that many of us sent the information around to whoever we could think of just because.....just because it needed to be done! The people are freezing, they need blankets and we send money and ask others to do the same. And I consider that "faith based" caring. Because we have faith that our contribution, no matter what size, will make a difference.

What matters to us are the children and adults in this country who do not have health care. What matters is the animals and the homeless and the poor and the ill and the depressed. Because that is what we are fighting for. I will take a leap here and say that most people on this forum are not looking for help for themselves. They are looking for help for their country and their world and their next door neighbor.

And I'll take another leap and say that most people here have grabbed their Debit or Credit card plenty of times when they see a need that another has shown to them.

We, as Democrats, or Progressives are thinking people. We do not sit in a fog of our own must and declare everyone wrong. We are trying to make things better. And if you can't SEE THAT then you must be sitting in your own must.

I suggest you stand up and brush yourself off.

[Obamarama]

190. Gentle reader....

You seem confused. I'm not woried about the kind, intelligent people here on DU. If everyone in this country were as committed and involved as we are here our country wouldn't be in its current rut.

There's a lot to be said for fighting to make things better, but frankly I've had it with being Don Quioxte. So you stay and continue slaying your windmills.

Quite frankly, I'm a little shocked at some peoples' reactions on this thread. One would think one has mistakenly happened upon FR given some of the comments here.

And not to worry...I've never let the door hit me in the ass before, so I doubt it will happen now, either.

Okay, at ease little patriot...you can go back to watching FOX now.

[Swede]

93. That's a broad brush to paint 3 hundred million people with.

America isn't paradise and neither is France. I see the deep flaws in my country (Canada) but I know it is a work in progress and I will be happy the stay and help it.

[Beausoir]

94. Don't let la porte hit you in la derriere....

on your way out.

What's French for "pompous bigot"?

Enjoy your little fantasy.

[PetraPooh]

96. I agree, but no, you must be young. . .

because what I have learned in my agedness, having moved to get away, and thinking I was going toward soemthing better many times; no matter where I am, some is good and some is bad. . . BUT more importantly they(the society involved) never lives up to my preconceived ideas as to who they should be. . . .or how they should respond to me being me.

[Gregorian]

101. There's truth in that.

I posted above about how much I agree. But then I realized what you have written. There IS something about America that I find disgusting. But it's not confined to this country. We just seem to embrace it without much thought. Or at least half the country does. The things I'm trying to get away from are everywhere. I'm trying to find 1969. And that can't be done by moving to Europe. Bla, bla, bla. I'm typing into outter space. Noone cares.
I just think you're right, to a degree.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

147. You know, when I think about it

there actually IS something about human beings that I find disgusting. But I'll hang around because there are some I like and love.

[Peter Frank]

112. Welcome to the DU PetraPooh!

:hi:

[mirandapriestly]

105. You're lucky you have somewhere to go...nt

[PowerToThePeople]

114. I am working on leaving the USA too.

It will be several years before I will have the resources to do this, but it is certainly TOP on my list of wishes in this life. My company has operations in France/Italy/Britain and other Euro countries. My "goal" is to put in enough time to save the resources and request transfer.

I despise the consumerist/capitalist-fascist/non-forward thinking country that the USA has become. I need to be somewhere where people are trying to make positive changes to the world.

And, yes people are trying to make changes here. The difference is that the changes being worked on are just to stop us from being extremely damaging to labor and the environment. Ww are so far in the red (on environmental issues/labor issues/human rights issues)that it will take generations just to get back to ground zero.

I do not like living in the hole that America has become.

[bvar22]

115. Thanks.

You CAN post to DU from France.
Please continue to do so.
There are many here who are not xenophobic, geographically bigoted, or close minded.



Safe Trip, my friend.

or would that be "Bon Voyage, Mon Ami?"

[Runcible Spoon]

128. "xenophobic, geographically bigoted, or close minded"

bc. NONE of those would apply to the OP, eh? :eyes:

[FearofFutility]

120. No matter where you go, there you are. n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

139. Amen

[eridani]

188. And you will always be--

--directly above the center of the earth!

[FearofFutility]

200. LOL!

Good one

[methinks2]

138. Have a glass of wine for me

B-) I remember the wine, the cream, the tastes of France.

[suziedemocrat]

146. I lived in Europe for 2 years and I much prefer the US.

For one thing, I got sick of the Europeans constantly putting Americans down. I'm sure it is only worse now. Every European male I spent time with made some comment about how I probably wanted to eat at McDonald's, somehow forgetting that I am a vegetarian. I got so sick of the idiotic stereotypes that I couldn't wait to leave. Eventually, they would make some stupid comment that I'm not a true American because I watch the news. Both my Mother and Father have ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary war, so I figure I'm pretty darned American. Not all Americans go to Europe to visit Euro-Disney and eat at McDonald's. The two biggest and most crowded McDonald's I have ever been to were in Paris, and they weren't filled with American tourists. I always liked to go to McDonald's because they let you use the restroom without making you buy something. (In Europe, finding a place to pee can be quite a hassle!)

Having said all of this, France was much, much better than Germany.

To twist a famous saying, the U.S. is the worst country on earth, except for all of the others.

I'll stay to fend off fascism in my beloved country.

[robbedvoter]

148. Wherever you go, there you are. Maybe it is you that needs changing

Nostalgia for a glorious past and perceptions based on a details about few friends can paint an appealing picture of practically any place in the world. Seems to me that you are looking for emotional comfort more than an actual geographical place. I know because I moved around quite a bit before finding it. I can describe my own NYC neighborood as warmly as you do your destination (except I am not as good a writer).
May you find the ability to embrace your surroundings - whichever they may be some day.

[Arugula Latte]

149. Hey, I don't blame you.

This country has been pretty hard to take for the last five years. Even without Bush, too many Americans don't know how to enjoy life with food, wine, and friendship. Enjoy France.

[Initech]

150. I feel your pain!

There's times when I wish I could leave too.

W and his merry band of fat, lazy, stupid Talibornagains have made me embarrassed to be American. I dont hate America, I'm embarrassed by it. Why do we always have to be the stupid country?

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

153. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

If you don't like it here, fine. Some of us have the guts to stay and do our best to change the things that are not right with this country.

If you don't have the courage to work to change America, no problem. We won't miss you.

Redstone

[cantstandbush]

156. Peace and love to you! It does take a village. n/t

[Maraya1969]

157. Personally I resent anyone who is not a citizen of this country

criticizing it. We don't go over to your country and tell you how disgusting you are are we don't expect that kind of rude behavior from you either.


And I can tell you this very thing used to happen way back in the 70's when my family hosted exchange students. We would get together with other families and other students and certain ones had the fucking NERVE to criticize us when they were frigging guests!!!! I don't think they PAID ANYTHING when they were here. Our student was very nice and from Finland. Some of the others could have done well with a course on manners.

So a great big...DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU ON THE ASS ON THE WAY OUT!

And while I am at it: Get the Fuck out!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

170. Oops!

"We don't go over to your country and tell you how disgusting you are are we don't expect that kind of rude behavior from you either."

Home is where the heart is - it's a natural fact. Asseyez-vous, SVP!

LFR

[slybacon9]

181. then where is your home if you have no heart?

(don't mistake your ego for heart...)

[Maraya1969]

158. And what is even a bigger joke is.....you're really going nowhere

because with the internet you are as close to here when you are anywhere.

Unless you did not realize yet that France is part of the net and thus the reason for the idiot postcard remark.

[Proud liberal Kat]

160. Good Luck and may you find what you are looking for...

for me and mine...we shall stay at home, because home America is. This is where my immediate family resides (both literally and figuratively) and warts and all I love them. I am here to make a better day. It makes us no better nor worse than another just different. But I still as a proud liberal stand up for America and its potential...despite it's rising star the rightists are but only a fantasy of what may be, and I have a better one, along with millions of other Americans. I may be naive or a bit off, but I still have faith in this people and I am here to work.
Kat

[Lannes]

163. Grew up in France

Well part of my childhood anyway.Every generation of my family has spent at least part of their lives there since the 19th century so I have close ties to what I consider my second country.

As much as I love France and its culture,they have their own problems as evident in the riots and the racism that caused them among other problems.

No country is perfect of course but moving there for me would be substituting the problems of one country for another.They have their far right factions like we do.They are supposed to be our allies but they have nuclear weapons aimed at us.Have for many years long before Bush came into office.

Its easy to piss on America these days,god knows we criticize the US regulary here and rightly so but to hold up France as a model of equality and freedom and ignoring its flaws is fucking hypocrisy as much of a bond as I feel towards the French.

[K8-EEE]

164. Um, How Old Of A Person Are You?

I'm guessing that you are maybe 23 or 24? You sound very idealistic which can be nice, well it's nice when people do it without a superiority complex.

History aside, we live in an era of global problems, you can run away but you can't hide. You will find plenty of consumerism and other ills in La Belle France. They even have quite a few McDonalds' there, I know because I saw one on fire last week during the riots.

Print you this post and read it in 20 years and you will probably laugh at yourself.

[Marr]

166. Hooray for you. You're a regular Che Guevarra.

Well- if Che Guevarra had moved to Paris and just sipped coffee.

Enjoy your trust fund, sweetheart.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

194. LOL

[nodehopper]

229. hee

[Sapphocrat]

167. You know what?

I don't believe a word you wrote.

On the off chance your post was not a badly-executed attempt at satire ("rude, dispiriting debacle of a nation"? oh, such drama, mama!), and you do mean every word of it, then I'm 100% behind you -- in that I pray you get the fuck out of my country as soon as possible, and never return.

How do you say, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass..." in French?

[Redstone]

169. Whoa. Good post.

I think you're right; someone is trying to wind us up here. And succeeding.

But your reply said it well for many of us, indeed.

Redstone

[gardenista]

176. Something like "Ne laisse pas la porte te claquer les fesses en partent"

or something like that.

[incapsulated]

185. Yeah!

Ne laisse pas la porte... whatever! Good riddance!

[haydukelives]

168. I wish I could go

sigh

[foreigncorrespondent]

171. OMG!

How bloody rude of you!

Here you are insulting Americans by saying they are all rude while you attack them by being rude yourself. That is pretty hypocritical to say the least!

My experience with America and its people (and believe me, I have had lots of experience with Americans both here in Australia, and in their own country) has been one of joy.

While I found SOME Americans to be rude, most have been really nice and sincere and shown me a wonderful time.

Now, how would you like all of us to lumber every person in your country into the same category as I will put you? And that is one of a person with very low respect for their fellow human beings. And the manners of a rather hungry bull dog.

Good go home. Hope you have a wonderful time. Don't bother about the postcards, I'm not interested in your country at all. And while you are there you best take a class to learn that just because some people are rude, that doesn't make everyone in a particular country the same.

On edit: Let me just add that I am rather insulted by your use of the words "fat people" and "lazy" in the same sentence. Do you imply that because someone is fat that that makes them lazy? If so, then you best add apologies to every large person on this forum who will see your cruel words. I am not a small person by any means, and I can tell you I am certainly not lazy. When I was working at my last job (security guard for your information) On a Thursday and Friday 11.5 hour shifts, I would walk an average of 30kms each day. Other days, would be an average of 11-15kms a day. If that makes me lazy, then your words make you someone who has very little intelligence.

[Maraya1969]

172. I Sincerely thank you foreigncorrespondent, Maraya

[foreigncorrespondent]

173. No need to, Maraya!

I despise rude people and will call them on it when I see it.

I hope this jerk wakes up and realized what being that rude means. It means a life of being alone and dying alone. I know. I have someone in my family who in her old age is very alone now, simply for how rude she treated people over the course of her life.

[NMMNG]

174. Goodbye. Keep your postcards

I am too fat, lazy and rude to read them.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

175. Nationalism is the NEW! IMPROVED!

Opiate of the masses.

Believe me, I take much of this commentary to heart. Some, well, not so much... There was a time when I would have bristled to hear anyone speak of the good ol' USA the way I do. No more. I can name the date and time when the lights went out - around midnight, December 12, 2000. I just didn't know then how much it would change my life, both materially and spriitually. In early spring of the following year I lost my job, a good one, making engineering drawings for a big Japanese manufacturer. I had been living the dream doing work I loved, driving a nice car and outfitting my fine little house with the accoutrements of middle class existence. It was truly "la dolce vita", in many ways, but in my drive to achieve and aquire I had become quite isolated from the rest of my neighbors, family and friends, and they from me for essentially the same reasons:

Suddenly it all changed. I had become unnecessary. I felt like an exile, like I did not belong. I had alienated a good portion of my family with angry rhetoric over their support for the bush nuts. My girlfriend couldn't understand my depression and I could not understand her lack of same. We parted. After awhile, I decided to sell my dream house, take the money and run. It took a little time, but when the deal was done I had a bit of cash and decided that none of it would go into the American system that had failed us all so miserably. I gave away everything I owned but for a suitcase full of clothes and left the States. Best decision I ever made.

The rest is a story of discovery, of learning and adapting to a very different culture, but the whole experience boils down to one salient point: there, I feel needed. Here, I am thrice expendable.

Perhaps it is the geography, the culture, the musical language, the traditions, the reggae... Perhaps it is the people - the friends I have found. Perhaps it is because my friends there expect great things of me. Whatever the reason or the magic, I have found the place I belong. During this sojourn in the States, the sentiments that drove me to the Slopes have been confirmed. As my friend Nadia said, "It's a pity, so much madness."

I feel alone in a desert; a fish on dry land, a stranger in the place I was born. Is it just me? I don't think so.

Paix,

LFR

[NYCGirl]

199. I know the violin part to that one.

:nopity:

[Miss Chybil]

177. Adios and good riddance.

I'd love to move to France, but not because I think it's all holy and sin-free. Give me a break. Let's see, did the French torture Algerians? Weren't they with us in Viet Nam? Didn't they help birth this very nation? Haven't they been having a car burning party there lately?

Yes, we're fat and we're busy and we're too materialistic, but that's for us to say. It's kind of like it's o.k. for me to be mad at my brother, but you better not talk bad about him. Know what I mean?

I've heard tell the French can be rude. Go figure. Don't worry about sending postcards. We're probably too ignorant to read them.

[Autonomy]

179. I am holding out for Phase I Lunar colonization

before I leave the US. France is just a museum with good food. There's no point in going backwards in history; it's moved on without you.

Leaving a country because the peasants are not sophisticated enough for you is laughable. It is always the villein who migrates to a new world because they are the only ones who know how to work. It is the noblesse oblige to stay behind and stultify, and such will happen to the corporate capitalists in the Old World of America. But they will be oh-so smug and self-satisfied with who they used to be! Just like the Europeans are now.

[zippy890]

191. I'm waiting for Mars colonization

Although Phase I Lunar colony would suffice if thing get worse here.

I agree with you about Europe - going backwards in history to a place thats no longer there.

New Zealand would be my choice to ex-patriate too, I visited there years ago and dream of returning.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

182. One cannot enter a French bookstore...

...and avoid viewing several tables and a set of shelves or two devoted to studies of the long and horrid Algerian colonization and the following war of independence, or the civil war which has followed that. Photographs of dead bodies stacked like cordwood and blown-up cafes by the score, literally millions of families torn by violence over generations. The Republic is reaping the whirlwind of damn near 150 years of colonial rule and its aftermath. To comprehend the situation they find themselve in is to invite frustration - there is no end to the complexity of their social problems, some created centuries ago.

The recent unrest has been a long time coming, and yet I have no doubt that the citizenry of France will put their shoulders to the wheel and find a solution no matter how hard the road might be. I am far less sure that the citizenry of the USA will rise to the challenge they face as a nation:

"The summer grasses
Are all that remain
Of dreams of empire."

[NuttyFluffers]

184. oooh! send me postcards! and can i visit? i'm a good conversationalist!

i'll bring the sangria and cards, you supply the fondue and gazebo. we chill by the dying autumnal night chatting up a storm! :D

... or we can beat the shit out of each other over the last $50 dvd player at Le Wal*Mart ('cause they're crucial to modern life, y'know). :evilgrin:

[laruemtt]

189. living here in st. lucia for

the last four months, i'm appalled everytime i see bits and pieces of the american "culture" on the "news." the stuff your face contests, the melees at the walmarts on black friday, the gross consumerism. i hated it when i lived there and it just seems like a caricature of itself now from here.

i know we might have to go back some day when dh's medical training reaches its next landmark, but we've been talking lately of either staying here in the caribbean (far east caribbean - away from the crass commercialism of some of the western caribbean isles) or maybe even some farmland in ontario. at 53 now, my soul cries for what's happened to the u.s. and i hurt for my family and friends back "home." and since it is "home," i often get homesick. but i cannot imagine living in what it has become again.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

198. May I respectfully suggest you not watch "the news"

for bits and pieces of American culture? I haven't seen a stuff-your-face contest in the six decades I have lived here. I wasn't at Walmart at 5, either were any of my family or friends. My experience of American culture is just everyday folks working, playing, loving. We get up and go to work where we do our best. I'm a teacher and my whole family works in the public sector in service jobs: firefighter, paramedic, college prof, teachers, nurses. We come home and enjoy our dinners, yell at Chris Matthews, read a book, do the laundry... weekends we get together, hold the babies, laugh over the toddlers, plan the wedding....

And all my colleagues lead similar lives.

The media has no clue and you won't find them taking our pictures unless one of us suddenly does something really stupid or tragic, because that is what sells.

And as has been said, wherever you go, there you are.

[Beausoir]

204. Medical school in St Lucia?

No thanks.

[laruemtt]

213. don't worry, mon.

i don't recall anyone offering to doctor you or inviting you here. ah, the sounds of american snobbery in the afternoon - how i miss it, NOT.

[Beausoir]

225. Thank goodness...

I know all about "offshore" medical schools for Americans. I know why people have to enroll in them and I know that the standards for training are sub-par to U.S. schools.

Give me an properly trained physician any day.

[flyarm]

195. can i come????????????? i love France...and it always feels

like i am going home when i arrive in France....

if not for children i would go as well...but if my child gets a transfer to britian next year..i am outta here as well..i will go to France and use the chunnel for visits!!

fly

[Neshanic]

197. Keep your postcards. You must be in a financial situation to leave.

So what are you doing for a living there? Collecting any checks, social security, trust fund, investments from those fat lazy American firms with fat lazy people?

Have a good time at a picture postcard cafe drinking your wine and taking a long drag on a lit heater with your new French friends, regailing them of the horrors of living in the US under the Cheney regency.

I'll stay here and keep hanging with the people here that know that the future is going to be better, because there are more of us than there are of the scumbag republicans that have no vision.

You could not have been confident in the American dream for long, considering 75 posts.

[kywildcat]

203. Let us not forget what French Colonialism

has created over the years, including the support and fostering of the Ayatollah Khomeini to our detriment (and arguably the world), years of strife in Morocco and between Morocco and Mauritania (the Sahara comes to mind) and many other nations on the African Continent, not to mention VietNam, whom the French manipulated and played so badly the US was requested to come in, clean up and sacrifice.
I adore France. I work for the French, I respect their ability in debate, their chivalry and of course many of the cultural contributions.
I abhorrer their need to manipulate and label it diplomacy. Let us not forget the french role in the oil for food scandal.
While France has instituted many of the social ideals that we in the US crave, they ignore the mess they have made in many many countries. They are very quick to acknowledge our imperialism but not so quick to debate their own, and in this I would argue is a glaring rate of failure on their part.
Mes pensées humbles sur ce sujet.
La bonne Chance et bons Dieux Expédient.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

216. You forgot Algeria...

It is the same all over - it is the rich v. the poor in every country on the gods' green earth.

[LSK]

206. thanks for giving Dean a chance - not

I wouldnt give up until 2008. If things dont change by then, then Im with you. Until then, I will give Howard Dean a chance to win an election for the Democrats and we'll see what the Katrina effect does as well.

It is way to early to call it quits. Plus we have some serious mommentum right now.

[wadestock]

208. It didn't use to be this way

2 terms of Reagan...the formation of Reaganites....and now the outright incompetence of Bushco for 2 terms has brought us to the bottom of the barrel.

When I was a kid growing up about 50 years ago....I could go out on my bike, ride 20 miles through a half dozen towns, and all my mother had to worry about was whether or not I came home on time for dinner.

Today...I don't even dare have my son ride down the street on his bike for fear some asshole just see how close he can scoot by and clip him. So I take the bike in the car, ride down to the school, and have him ride there.

The business ethics were a nite and day difference. People worked and had pride in their work...not the overall concept to see how much they could get away with. There was a sense of pride in America....American built products...and good ole American ingenuity.

The whole bad business ethic is taught front and center in our business schools. Having just completed a business degree I can tell you this with certainty. Although you will brush on quality for a semester or two...the bottom line is how to advance the bottom line.

The kids I work with now, about a dozen between 22 and 30ish in my division are the biggest butt kissers....with the least amount of true pride and selfless ambition I've ever seen. I wouldn't in any business sense trust any of them.

Out of the 100s of businesses I've worked with over the years...seeing some of the best people in business....working for a product they really believe in....what I see now is the culmination of many years of the scum rising to the top. The top management is now run by shysters predominantly and without quality MEN leading the way...well the rest becomes a sell out.

America will not lead the world in the future. America is now in the process of being sold out. It will be held by foreigners in combination with the ultra wealthy 1 % that have been financed by the rest of the hard working Americans. Within a few generations from now....there will be limited assets held by the majority of Americans.

There are number of countries....including Canada, that through selective immigration and whatever combination of nationalism and government inspired GOOD businesses....will produce a quality environment for its citizenry.

In a way....you are doing a service for your country if you can contribute effectively there to ANY form of free enterprise system which works for the people.....not AGAINST its people.

Maybe...just maybe....as America slips behind other nations and there is an exodus of quality people....maybe someone will get the message....but then again....

Why would those who now own the businesses care...when the world market will offer cheaper labor that they can exploit. As long as they live on high in their Bush mansions and have the cops in the neighborhood to protect them....why should they give 2 craps about the rest of us....

[Arugula Latte]

210. I fear you're correct.

When I was a kid in the 70s, I was regaled with sunny tales -- America founded on freedom, America the innovator, America the moon conquerer. Now, I find myself trying to explain to my 8-year-old how so many Republicans and also so many Democrats can vote for policies that are so obviously hurtful: Well, see, these politicians get money from the corporations, and the corporations don't really care about anything but making money, and so the politicians do whatever they can to please the corporations so they'll get more money from them ... or Well, this country thinks it can boss the rest of the world around, but we are in a decline, and in this century we'll see other countries get ahead of us economically ... etc. It's depressing. It really is.

[wadestock]

226. The power....

of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.-- George Bernard Shaw

The capitalistic decadence was predicted by Marx...it just took decades longer than predicted....sold using Uncle Santa Clause Ronny Reagan who America innocently embraced the notion...

"hey...it's your money....who can spend it better than you!!

and then glorified by the business scum bags that think growth takes precedence over any other concept....

Then sold hook line and sinker into the living rooms of America by the biggest scum bag who may have ever walked the earth....

Rush Limbaugh

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

214. Well said!

I could not have said it better - you have fleshed out in real terms my highly emotional post.

Someone around here said that it is about time to indict the whole Harvard Business School. This once-great country is being brought to its knees by the irresponsibility and corruption of the elite, and I might add, a collective loss of conscience.

Remember when there was a recognizable social contract? It is gone, now.

Our company used to hold great picnics... one time we put up a pinata for the children to smack around. When it burst, all the American kids made a pig-pile, scrambling for the candy and toys. Of course, the meaner, bigger boys muscled out the smaller boys and the girls. The Japanese kids, on the other hand, looked placidly on the fray, and we gave them each a portion of the goodies. THAT, mes amies, is America today - one gigantic pigpile.

Dontcha just "love" Black Friday?

[Bridget Burke]

217. The red ant returns to the trendy quarter of Lyon!

According to Babelfish, that is!

Why have you hidden your inner Frenchman so long? Your earlier posts at DU were of the quick quip variety--showing a good, colloquial command of English. Now, you appear to be the cliche arrogant Frenchman.

Pepe le Pew--is that you?

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

224. Bridget, thank you for pointing this out...

I guess, by my manner of writing, I have not been explicit regarding my national identity. I am American, and I was once proud of that fact. Home is where the heart is - that is the whole point of my post, by the way - I am going home to a place I never knew. I recognized it when I got there.

"There are two hills in Lyon, one for praying, and one for working." La Croix Rousse is the working hill. The top of the hill, the Plateau, has definitely become more "trendy" in the past 20 - 25 years, driving up rents and prices, generally and driving out the working class and immigrants who once lived there. It has become tres bourgois.

Les Pentes are a different matter entirely. Many workers, students, artists, and artisans still live there and it is not so much trendy as it is fertile with possibilities. Still pretty gritty, though. The heart of les pentes de la Croix Rousse is Place Colbert, which looks to the east, toward les Alpes. On Place Colbert stands a small bar...

La Fourmi Rouge!

[Joanne98]

219. Take me with you!

[NoPasaran]

220. Don't let that torch of Liberty scorch your ass

Don't let that torch of Liberty scorch your ass on your way out of the country.

[Beausoir]

227. You are not from France.

You aspire to be a Frenchman but, alas, when Americans aspire to be French, they end up sounding like you. Misguided, clumsy and pompous to the point of hilarity.

A true Frenchman could pull it off. Pity you haven't learned that lesson yet.

The French are gonna laugh you right outta the country. And when that happens...I'd LOVE to get a postcard.

Bon Chance!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

234. You sound like an average American... a lazy reader.

You forgot to tell me not to let the door hit me on the way out, Beausoir! Get with the program!

[Bluebear]

232. 1-800-237-2746, Air France reservations. Call already.

:crazy:

[wtmusic]

233. I'll going to hang around just to bug your friends

'til they go and bury their heads in the sand too, er, I mean climb La Montee de la Grande Cote and pretend they're poor, and society is level.

[upi402]

235. I can at once relate and wish that I couldn't

I have such love for what this country was, what it meant, and the sacrifices of labor and warriors and jurists and journalists and the multitudes of untold heroically lived lives.

Now we are a wad of wet wonderbread that loves only to hate...well, almost half of us are. The majority feel as you do and our media will not let that secret out. And so we are silenced.

We can protest -in free speech chain link pens
We vote -and they are changed or not counted or prevented
We write our representatives -and the whores spread their legs for big business
We try to stay informed -and are misinformed, misled, and miss the point as a result
We are fucked

[rman]

238. Broad brush and all that

Over 50% of these fat and lazy people now think they've been lied to
by the government regarding the war.
That's more then ever before - why leave now?

And above all, why the broad brush?

[porphyrian]

240. Coward.

Do whatever you want, but I'm not going anywhere. This is my fucking country, and I'm not willingly giving it over. I may be fat, rude, and selfish, but I'm not quitting just because things seem hopeless. Run if you have to, but I'm standing my ground.