Flame away - I am pissed as hell at the Democrats tonight !

[Laura PourMeADrink]

What is worse? Risking going on record, for endorsing a stunt? Or going on record as saying you oppose withdrawal from Iraq? The majority of the public will not even know that this is a stunt. They will just know that once again, the Dems abandoned their convictions. IMHO, Pelosi screwed up again with her lack of political savy, just like when she didn't want Democrats at the Katrina hearings.

This was a golden opportunity, IMHO, to speak from the heart, speak conscience. This is what the people and our party are starving for! And once again, I am sad to say, they blew it.

This is an exact repeat of the first vote to authorize B**s invasion and will come back to haunt them.

And the saddest part of all - this stupid, horrible, illegal invasion will continue and more Americans and innocent Iraqis will die.

[gristy]

1. I thought things went as well as could be expected in the House

The dems did a good job. Remains to be seen if the press does their job.

[fearnobush]

2. Not gonna flame, The Repukes did this to get posts like these.

And we cannot fall for it. Go Big Blue!

[AuntPatsy]

5. agreed

[DanCa]

62. It made the republicans look petty and foolish

Golloum schmidt was particularly repulsive. It will take some time for me to ascertain the effect it had on the dems. Other than the fact that they were backed in a corner.

[MADem]

81. That was her opposition's campaign commercial!!

It will be a gift that keeps on giving!

[Jane Austin]

3. The vote wasn't about withdrawing from Iraq.

It was about withdrawing immediately and completely from Iraq.

Not many people are for that.

Not even Cong. Murtha.

The republicans worded the resolution so it almost couldn't be voted for.

It was nothing like Murtha's position.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

18. I know that. But it's not like if it won all troops would get on a bus

day one and leave. They should have voted yes - and sent a clear message that they wanted us out. There were not withdrawal details in the resolution that anyone would need to worry about. It's not like the resolution said - on day one every soldier get on a bus and hightail it out of there.

Yes = Intention = Start getting out NOW!

[wookie294]

Agree completely

Dems should have voted YES.

[mzmolly]

85. It would have sent a message that Democrats don't consider every

issue surrounding the current situation. I'd rather they get a chance to vote on the REAL Murtha resolution.

[Erika]

4. I respectfully disagree totally

Public sentiment is against the Iraq war and I think the dems did an excellent job in framing why.

This whole exercise was a put down to W and his administration.

[Zookeeper]

12. Yes, I kept explaining to my kids....

what a big deal it was that this debate even happened given the political climate of the last five years.

This is a huge wake-up call for BushCo and the RW Rethugs.

[Window]

93. I agree.

Anyone with half a brain knows this was nothing short of a stunt.




Peace

[SnoopDog]

6. They should have all voted "Present"

[Zookeeper]

17. I agree. n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

20. Yes -- That would have definitely been better than NO n/t

[SnoopDog]

41. By the way...

I have always liked your screen name - I am sure you have a great story behind it.

But back on topic... It is like voting 'none of the above'. If there are two absolutely horrific candidates on a ballot - a none of the above sends the correct message. Just because a bill is in congress does not mean you should vote yes or no.

[ClayZ]

80. There you have it!

:toast:

[Mutley]

113. I agree.

But, as this fight is going to get much uglier than it was last night, we need to stand by the Dems to the bitter end. They are going to need every last one of us to pull this off. The Repubs fight dirty, and the Dems have to look at the long term of this debate. I think it still turned out good for our side. Now the job of the Dems, and all of us, is to make sure the truth of what happened is spread far and wide. We need a media blitz like no other media blitz, and we'll have to constantly stay on the collective ass of the Dems to make sure it happens.

[Jon8503]

147. Then they are indecisive; can't take a stand, just what some have

been criticizing them for.

[Usrename]

155. Yup!

would have created an opening to discuss Murtha's proposal - agree with you on this - and a show of unity separate from the Republicans

[BurtWorm]

7. They should have protested the vote by leaving

or voting present. They should not have voted for a resolution offered by the Republicans pretended to be a "mirror" of Murtha's real idea. Nor should they have given the Republicans the satisfaction of voting against it. They did blow a major opportunity to make a stand for honesty and against this shameful sham.

[immoderate]

118. Bingo! They should have walked out.

This little stunt did not deserve a vote. Much (most?) of the public will not see the nuance here. They will think it's a vote to "maintain the course."

Dems walking out would have highlighted that this was intended as a slap in the face to Jack Murtha. The other goal was to head off any real debate about the war. I give the Republicans credit for a big but obscene victory.

--IMM

[liveoaktx]

8. Not so-you must have missed when Chet Edwards stood up and

addressed exactly the point about a good debate that would involve all Congressional reps being able to speak from the heart. He was shut down by the moderator who told him that the Republicans control the time.

So what would you have them do when the Republicans control the terms of the debate?

I don't agree that this will come back to haunt them. If you are concerned that people will not know what this was, then it behooves you to speak up loudly and often with what it actually was.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

24. Well, I know Chet Edwards and there is no way that DINO would

ever vote to bring troops home. He is a total sell out.

Your last line is total bullshit.

[still_one]

9. you don't know what you are talking about

THIS WAS NOT MURTHAS resolution, it was duncan hunters

murtha NEVER called for immediate withdrawl in his resolution

the repukes LIED

[Laura PourMeADrink]

28. Of course I know it wasn't Murtha's resolution! Jeez, Duh

[still_one]

51. what did you want the democrats to do?

1. walk out. Not bad, but they repukes would say that the democrats have no convictions

2. not vote. better, but again the repukes would say that the democrats have no convictions

3. vote no on a bad resolution by repukes

Anything they did they would have to explain what happened, because the results would be twisted

The democrats are NOT going to be silent about this. The repukes will be exposed for what they are. russert will have murtha on his show this sunday. murtha will not stand for this

have patience

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. You left out an obvious option.

[still_one]

60. I know, VOTE YES

I am obviously for that choice, but that wasn't the murtha resolution

they would have to explain that also, because the repukes would use the cut and run lie, and the morans in this country might fall in the trap

[still_one]

61. sorry did NOT mean to patronize

hope I didn't offend

[Laura PourMeADrink]

150. thank you. I am sorry too. Just riled up and SO against this stupid war

[Carni]

182. At this point I am all for just getting the hell out of there BUT

I don't think that is possible with bush in charge.

What needs to happen is bush/cheney need to be impeached, tried and then jailed.

The US needs to admit to the world that it F-d up by ever allowing bush to get away with his overthrow (here) and then an international coalition needs to go in and peace keep until Iraq can rebuild itself.

The above will not happen (I am not that naive)

On the one hand I think just get everyone out of Iraq NOW and then on the other hand I think about the consequences of just destroying their country and leaving them hanging.

There is no good solution until those who lied to invade and take over another country (illegally) are dealt with and removed.

This Iraq situation is far worse than Vietnam and I see no end in sight until bush and his regime are forced out.

[Mend]

10. the repukes did not want this war debated....they don't want

anything debated, so they lost: the war was debated. When Murtha read the letters from Gold Star mothers he put a human face on dead kids....

[mtowngman]

11. Maybe a walkout before the vote ...

would have delivered the message to those who only pay attention to MSM

[DURHAM D]

19. No - the MSM would have portrayed the Dems as

avoiding a fight. Big fat chickens. Pelosi played this right.

[Jane Austin]

99. Yes, indeedy. The "cut and run" word play would have ruled the

soundbite day.

[Jon8503]

146. Absolutely, she played it right. The dems took the best action.

The reports are filtering out now and they got one debate on this war and into the record books.

They could have voted "present" and then there would be those here who would be yelling indecisive. Instead the party line went against "immediate withdrawal" which Murtha was never talking about and you had some present votes.

The outcome was that the entire thing was shown for what it was.

[Mr_Spock]

13. Today we got a debate they didn't want to have!! It was excellent!!

For those who thought this would end the war or that a symbolic vote by the Dems was something they needed - oh, well - it wasn't a good day for idealism. Politics rarely intercepts with the ideal - this was a door the Repukes didn't want to open - and now it's open and the beginning of the end is near. You do realize that the Repukes need this thing to be wrapping up before next fall dont' you? Murtha forced their hand - and they are now in deep doodoo!

[Lex]

16. I agree. The Repubs punked themselves tonight.

Blowback is a bitch.

[dutchdemocrat]

95. I think the Dems got punked

Sorry, but half of America is reading this as a strong will to continue the war in Washington - and further enhances the 'hypocrisy' angle that the Republicans are trying to peel. When they quote Democrats as supporting the Iraq war in the past - it hurts. Now they just got the whole damn party to scream in unison for support.

Most of America won't know the complexities of the vote. They are just going to hear the talking points delivered by the all-too-happy-to-smother-the-democrats Faux media.

[Mutley]

115. That is why every last one of the regular Joe's in this country

who know what really happened have to spread the truth far and wide. Write LTTEs until your hand falls off, put up flyers on every telephone poll in town and under the windsheild wiper blade of every parked car you can find, stop people walking down the sidewalk, make up t-shirts, freeway blog every last overpass, put signs on our cars -- whatever has to be done. We have a DUTY to help the Dems in Congress get the word out on what really happened.

[stepnw1f]

14. Whatever.......... (nt)

[Blasphemer]

15. Not upset but I think their response was miscalculated

Abstaining en masse would have made it clear that they thought the resolution was BS. Frankly I don't understand the fears expressed re: voting Yes en masse. They R's will smear them ANYWAY, so what the heck would it matter if they all voted Yes? Still, if they wanted to be "safe", abstaining would have made more sense and I think it would have been more likely to get the appropriate MSM coverage.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

31. Exactly !

[blue neen]

21. The Democrats finally got the chance to debate, to talk about the

issue of the Iraq war. The Republicans have stonewalled on this...they can't do that anymore. Murtha put the "verboten" subject of the Iraq war on the table.

Many Democrats did speak from the heart tonight, did speak their conscience. I was moved to tears by Congressman Murtha.

This is only the beginning. It was a long time coming.

[Zookeeper]

27. "moved to tears"....

me too. (And I'm seldom moved to tears.)

[AuntPatsy]

29. It was good to hear the Dems speak, but in the process I had to endure

too many hours of those nasty little weavles that go by the label of Republicans and all I feel at the moment is hate and disqust that these cretins have been in control for as long as they have..

it was like having to endure hannity and oreily for hours without a bathroom break which in all likelyhood would have been used to throw up...

[madfloridian]

22. As hard as they are fighting against these crazy people...

it really upsets me to see any of them criticized right now. That is too bad you don't see what was pulled on them tonight.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

33. What ??? Of course I see what was pulled on them tonight. And

I loved the way the spoke and the way they cheered and jeered. What I din't think was politically savy was the way they voted.

[ClayZ]

84. Several Repukes are still fighting Viet Nam

One called us peacenicks :hippie: . That is what my Dad used to call me as a teenager, and I am now a Grandmother of 5.

That made me :rofl:laugh! I cried :cry: and yelled:grr: lots too, today and tonight!:

My husband served me wine :beer: and dinner and asked how long I was going to be "In Session".

Now I am :boring:exhausted!

I loved the Dems, even tho I wished they voted present, :grouphug: and Mr. Jones :hug:!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

149. I love your message and your illustrations ! My husband did the

same thing. And he was really wanting to watch a basketball game.

[ClayZ]

153. Didn't Ms. Schmidt remind you of the wicked witch from the

Wizard of OZ?

theme music here....
http://www.clayz.com/abrain.html

[Laura PourMeADrink]

178. YES -- or also, she reminded me of Ruth Bussey(sp?) from Laugh

In, with her hair pulled back so tight !

[SammyWinstonJack]

139. .

:applause:

[NightOwwl]

23. Did you even watch CSPAN today? n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

34. Duh. I have watched every single minute of this. And tomorrow

and the day after, and the day after, all you will hear is that no one but three dems want withdrawal from Iraq. All the rest of the bullshit will be forgotten and the repigs win again.

[NightOwwl]

40. Well, you've got your mind made up, then, don't you.

[Mutley]

117. Some of the early reports aren't looking so bad.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/18/congress.iraq.ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/18/iraq.plan/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10097801/

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0511190252nov19,1,1588928.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-cong19.html

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/11/19/white_house_plays_chicken_with_a_war_hero/

And http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0511190252nov19,1,1588928.story%3Fcoll%3Dchi-newsnationworld-hed">here is the google news page with much more.

[MelissaB]

130. Thanks so much for the links.

:hi:

[Mutley]

144. No problem. Here are a bunch more:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5403877&mesg_id=5403877

[slay]

25. It's time to say WE'VE HAD ENOUGH!! Leave Iraq NOW.

How long do you stay in a war based on LIES? Until their oil runs out? Because that's the real reason we're there. We'd NEVER be there if it wasn't for oil. Can't we just once do what's right and leave? How many more of our sons and brothers have to die for oil? We MUST fix our problems here in America before we run off trying to save the world which we are not even trying to do - sadly, it's all about money. Money and lies - those are the reasons for this war. I wish the Democrats had stood up too. :( My ONLY votes in the future will go to those who want to end the war NOW.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

35. YES YES YES YES YES !!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr_Spock]

166. So they vote "yea" on a joke stunt - for what???????????

You are TOTALLY missing the point of what happened last night.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

170. They never should have acknowledged by voting. They should have voted

present or walk out.

[Mr_Spock]

172. As if that would have made any difference.

They were voting against the Republican resolution which was not only not Murtha's, BUT IT WAS A BAD IDEA!!!!!!!!!!

We need a PLAN, not a stupid "pull out now" irrational resolution drafted by REPUKES to make anyone who voted for it look irrational. Why do you think they drafted their OWN VERSION AND VOTED AGAINST IT?????????????????????????????????

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

174. It would have made a statement and would have made a Huge difference

as some news sources would have to say why they did just that. It wasn't worthy of their vote.

[Mr_Spock]

180. It would have made no difference at all.

Only maybe 100 people would have voted for such a poorly worded resolution anyway. Don't you understand it was poisoned water??

I can't understand the short-term thinking in your statement?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

190. If it was "poisoned", as I feel it was too, giving it any kind of credence

was too much. By voting just present or walking out would have been an incredible protest on the part of the Democrats. As it is, NBC, (and yes screw NBC), is spinning it as a win for the Republicans.

[Mr_Spock]

191. Yeah, i look to the MSM to determine how I feel about a subject

:eyes:

Walking away or not voting would have had their own negatives if you spend a minute to think about it...

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

194. I have never personally used msm as my barometer, and was not only

opposed to this war from way before get go (and couldn't understand anyone voting for it) but was against the war in Afghanistan as well. The bottom line is that over 70% of our citizenry did believe the lies and were well behind it. Why? Because the lies were flung at them by msm, the Administration's propaganda bureau. CNN seems to have a relatively good take on what happened last night, but NBC/MSNBC is appalling...and most people get their news in 1 minutes soundbites on network news.

I don't need a second to think about it btw...they never should have voted on it IMHOP.

On Edit.... not only NBC... I forgot. This morning I saw the video of Kerry on ABC, and the person who interviewed tried very hard to imply that Kerry was there just to further his aspirations to run in 2008. He handled her very well, but you could see which way they were trying to spin this.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. If I was there

I wouldn't have voted for the republican bill at all. I would've walked out when the vote came.

[tgnyc]

30. Laura is right: average Joe did not watch tonight, and will never see

a second of video from tonight. All most Americans will know of this, if anything, is: everybody in the House, EVEN THE DEMOCRATS, said they don't want to withdraw the troops. So why is {Democrat X} still whining about withdrawing the troops?

6 months from now, when every Democrat up for election will want to run on a plan to withdraw the troops, the media will ask: then why didn't you vote for it when you had the chance?

You and I understand the subtlety of what happened tonight. Most folks will not, or will not be aware of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Oh I beg to differ

this is the begining of the debate... they were forced to ahem discuss this

Can you say check?

[blue neen]

36. MSNBC was showing plenty of it tonight.

They covered Jean Schmitt's blasphemy on Hardball and on Countdown. Congressman Murtha was on Hardball, and Tweety actually let him talk without interruption. Matthews showed respect for a change, AND he was not happy about Schmitt's remarks at all. He said something to the effect that her career is over!

[spuddonna]

LOL That's pretty funny because I believe it was her first day...

...actually on the floor!! :)

God, I wish Hackett had won that seat...

[MADem]

82. They picked out the juiciest bits, I have to say! n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. Thanks ! You said it much better than I.

[Mr_Spock]

39. Only a moron would get that impression.

Event he MSM is calling it a stunt - don't be so cynical please!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

42. Hope you are right

[NightOwwl]

44. I can't believe some of the idiocy I am seeing on DU tonight.

I thought DUer's were a savyier bunch.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. What a jerky thing to say. It's called a difference of opinion. And

in mine - your side is the un-savy - so we're even.

[BJW]

49. Agreed. But there's a significant subset

that seems determined to immediately get all pissy about everything that doesn't go immediately, 100% their way, exactly when they want it to--which is the antithesis of a mature and intelligent view of the political process.

Plus, I think they simply forget that this is a highly divided country, and that the Dems do not control congress or the presidency, and so the Dems have limited ability to get things on the agenda and frame/shape issues for debate and voting. Regardless of whether the Dems stood up screaming or not, they would, for the most part, be shot down like little tin soliders.

In politics as in war--when you are the "weaker" it's important to be highly flexible and ingenous, and recall that proper timing and strategy is everything.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

59. Right. We don't have control. We never set the agenda. And

this WAS the time to finally take a stand. They did it in their superb speeches, their cheering, their jeering. They just shouldn't have followed Pelosi and voted No. They should have voted yes or present. Not no. It is like chess, you have to think two plays ahead. They wanted everyone to vote no. So you vote yes.

And as for the 100% our way. We haven't gotten even 1% in the last year. So it's not like the first time we didn't get our way.

[BJW]

94. Disagree--Strongly!

Voting with the repugs was the wisest choice on the HUNTER resolution.

The "time" to make their stand wasn't on the piece of crap masquerading as the HUNTER resolution.

The time to make a real stand is on the MUNTER resolution (which, BTW both House resolution are non-binding and have no "stand" effect whatsoever, anyway) and on the KERRY plan, and on any on other legitimate dem resolution that get to the floor with fair and reasonable ground rules and real actual time offered for signficant debate and discussion.

Today was a BIG WIN because we broke through the BIG WALL and divided the repugs and made THEM and THEIR PARTY'S WAR look foolish, petty, mean-spirited, and lacking in vision and a plan.

It's a shame you don't understand what happened, and that you don't see what an inspired piece of political theater it was on the part of Dems.

But regardless of what you believe occurred today--take some time to also look at other indicators, and recent polls, and posted articles about troop withdrawal. Think this through. A troop withdrawal IS in the works and it is undoubtedly being negotiated "off screen."

[Laura PourMeADrink]

127. Disagree as strongly as you want - Some of us were 100% right

Just watched C-SPAN, the Boston Globe reporter just said "Oh, there were only 3 Democrats that want us out of Iraq." And a caller said, "Those Democrats, whine and whine about getting out of Iraq, and then they have a chance to vote to get out and they vote no."

[BJW]

161. Sorry, your "proof" doesn't match

your premise in your original post, and in fact has nothing to do with it. Your premise was that Dems blew an opportunity to speak from the heart. No they didn't. In fact, Murtha spoke for them all, quite eloquently.

Your references to the C-span caller proved my point. The vote WASN'T any sort of legitimate vote, with any binding authority, to remove the troops.

So what if some C-span callers don't exactly like Dems anyway? You seem to think that this particular caller could have been persuaded if all Dems voted for a stupid non-binding and poorly-written repug resolution? Not likely.

So what if one Boston Globe reporter said something inaccurate? I've heard other, more accurate synopses on other cable channels.

Obviously you're stubbornly determined to keep the mindset you have now, just like * does. If you can't stand the Dems strategy on such an important issue, have you thought about going with the Socialist Workers? Or the Greens? Might be a better fit.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

196. Compare me to Bush? Say I should leave Party? Thanks for the kind words !

First of all, when I said "speak from the heart" I meant in the form of a vote. Binding, non-binding, whatever, it's a message, and its news. I was thrilled to hear the Dems speak as they did, cheer and jeer, as they did. My OP was hot-headed. Read #188, after I cooled off.

[BJW]

204. Well

I hope you take some time later on to re-read your posts and responses, in total.

Theres no need to internally personalize my comments and come from a defensive position from an incorrect premise that I deliberately intended insult or intended unkindness to you.

But seriously, have you thought about changing parties to one that more closely aligns with your political beliefs? Maybe if more people did this, en masse, we could have more of a voice and have better options than we do now.

Just something to think about.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

Hmm. Guess that's as close to an apology as I'll get - reminds me

of George wanting an apology for the guy ruining his sweater. (inside Seinfeld joke). I am pretty thick-skinned but comparing someone to Bush is like the biggest insult I could ever imagine.

Yes, I am way left of most people on here. Took the test, left of Gandhi. And yes, other progressive parties fit me to a tee, but there is no way that I would take the risk that my switching would elect a republican again. Sad but practical. Maybe when the Dems get control back, I will reconsider.

Peace

[Laura PourMeADrink]

206. Hmm. Guess that's as close to an apology as I'll get - reminds me

of George wanting an apology for the guy ruining his sweater. (inside Seinfeld joke). I am pretty thick-skinned by comparing someone to Bush is like the biggest insult I could ever imagine.

Yes, I am way left of most people on here. Took the test, left of Gandhi. And yes, other progressive parties fit me to a tee, but there is no way that I would take the risk that my switching would elect a republican again. Sad but practical. Maybe when the Dems get control back, I will reconsider.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Voting yes what exactly what the connies wanted

what you just saw was check mate

[Mr_Spock]

70. Good post. I try to be calm as well. Patience is a virtue - especially in

politics. I thought the Dems were just pointed enough - I give them an "A" tonight. Their thoughtful speechess will go a long way...

[Laura PourMeADrink]

151. Well, I have calmed down. I agree with you, the speeches were

excellent and I was very, very proud of them for that.

[Mr_Spock]

183. I'm glad to see that you are seeing the good that came from this

now. Yeah, they were cornered and there were few good choices, but I think they acquitted themselves admirably!! They were able to have entered into the record a whole lot of stuff that they weren't even allowed to discuss previously. It was good overall - and a beginning to the end of this awful war IMO...

[Mr_Spock]

169. Well, the simple-minded emotional thinking is continuing today...

I think too much emotion makes this place useless. Toughen up people - this is politics. These things take a lot of time - at least a discussion will be happening at every Thanksgiving meal this week - Murtha succeeded fabulously. They are out of session and the last thing people saw was a debate about pulling out of Iraq. Bravo!!

[Pirate Smile]

67. Here is how the AP article that will go out to all the papers

distinguishes between Murtha's resolution and what the GOP did tonight:

"Murtha has proposed his own resolution that would force the president to withdraw the nearly 160,000 troops in Iraq "at the earliest practicable date." It would establish a quick-reaction force and a nearby presence of Marines in the region. It also said the U.S. must pursue stability in Iraq through diplomacy.

The Republican alternative simply said: "It is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately."'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802530_2.html

[Straight Shooter]

72. Well, Schmidt's and Bubp's farce about "cut and run" just hit the dust.

If Murtha is proposing a nearby presence of Marines, then Jean and her boy-toy can shut up.

At least AP made it clear and simple as to who wants what. If anyone can't understand the difference in the two resolutions, they're hopelessly lost in la-la land, anyway.

[K-W]

175. Of course the media will spin this against us, they spin EVERYTHING

against us.

Thee is no way the Democrats could have voted that would not have been spun against them one way or the other. The fact that this can be spun against the Democrats is not an argument that this was the wrong move.

You are right, that will be a republican talking point, but its time to realize that the ONLY way we will win is if people stop buying into Republican talking points.

What you need to do is go look at the poll numbers and realize that this partisan squabling doesnt matter and that most Americans dont give a shit what happened last night. All that matters is that the war keeps losing popularity so that people get angrier about it.

[raysr]

37. But why didn't the dems

refuse to vote? Why did they vote with the pukes? Why did they leave Murtha hanging?

[spuddonna]

52. They didn't! This wasn't Murtha's resolution! It was Duncan Hunters!!

The resolution they voted on tonight was NOT the one that John Murtha put forth!!

Duncan Hunter made up this bill this morning to frame Murtha as a 'cut and run' Democrat. It called for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, damn the consequences. The GOP immediately began calling it "Murtha's propsal" to try to pin this on him, and tried to make it appear as if they were going to actually vote on Murtha's bill.

Then when Democrats said "why can't we debate this, allow amendments, have a serious discussion about the war?" they were shut down and forced to vote on this piece of crap.

This had NOTHING to do with a real bill to get our soldiers home and EVERYTHING to do with a continued swiftboating of John Murtha! It was a nonbinding resolution, and was done only for political posturing. It makes me nauseated that the GOP wasted one of the last days before a holiday break on this bs... :grr:

[blue neen]

54. This wasn't Murtha's resolution.

They didn't leave him hanging. He got to articulate many important facts that have been ignored by Republicans.

Murtha even talked about torture and Abu Graib. He opened up Pandora's box and it will now stay open.

[LSK]

43. i agree, i thought all Dems should have voted Yea

We all knew no Republicans would vote for it. This was a chance for America to see that the Democrats are the opposition party. Mission NOT ACCOMPLISHED. The average idiot will see that both Democrats and Republicans voted against ending the war. Thats all they will see. And they will just carry on with the misconception that all Dems and Reps are the same and are worthless.

[BJW]

45. I don't think you "get" what happened, at all.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. I know what happened. The repigs created a phony resolution

to force Dems to vote yes so they could call them "cut and runners"

[flaminbats]

64. but now we can do this to the Republicans

whether it was phony or not, Republicans like Hunter should either support the resolution..or not introduce it. Republicans have cut their throats and united Democrats by doing this. It was great watching how Gingrey and others reacted as Walter Jones spoke.

When Republicans scream how terrible it is to criticize the President, they are only losing votes in 2006. Few Americans have forgotten the vengeful Republican attacks on "slick willie". Who can forget Republican opposition to our deployment in Bosnia or attacking Clinton for having "no exit strategy"?

I think the voters know who the real "cut and runners" are!

[Generic Other]

48. I "get" what happened. The Vichy House has spoken

For the second time, the Dems have voted to back Bush's war.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

50. Exactly ! n/t

[still_one]

55. no, the democrats will NOT remain silent on this

murtha is on russert this sunday. This distortion will NOT stand

watch

[Generic Other]

66. Bush and Cheney will remind Americans everyday that when

push came to shove, Dems voted to support Bush's war.

We can call them liars, but our words will ring hollow when set side-by-side with the Congressional Record.

[still_one]

68. but the democrats will NOT just take it

they are pissed. They have reached their limit of abuse

In addition, the people in America will know the truth, and when an opportunity presents itself they will bring up the true murthia resolution

Pandora's box has been opened, and momentum is on our side

[Generic Other]

69. Yeah right

Didn't you buy a bridge from me on ebay last week?

[Mr_Spock]

75. You're in a cheerie mood tonight!

The Dems had a pretty good couple of days and all you can do is emit negativity!

Poor Generic - you need a hug :hug:

[Generic Other]

79. I guess it's because I'm wondering if I still am a Dem

It never occurred to me to ask myself that question until tonight.

[MADem]

83. And the Dems will play that Schmidt tape calling Murtha a coward

Bush and Cheney won't do much reminding, because the press will be peppering them with questions about the Fitzgerald investigation. They're BUNKERED and HUNKERED. They can only come out at night, at fundraisers, in tuxedos, with no press allowed.

[Generic Other]

86. I hope you are right because the thought of that smirking chimp

chortling over this as he reminds us how the Dems voted is unbearable. I'll break my tv for sure!

[MADem]

92. The press smells blood in the water--they are circling him like sharks

He won't get away with making breezy pronouncements and patting the lap dogs--those days are GONE. And remember, the vote was on the HUNTER amendment (cut and run) not the Murtha amendment (redeploy to the perimeter; let Iraqis run Iraq, and we watch their backs from a distance). I summed it up in a sentence, which means that the politicians could manage to do it in three!

But the real story here is that a witch named Schmidt blew the whole program--calling Murtha, a USMC combat vet, a coward was just way too far out--and bless the Dems, they rallied, strongly--it looked like the damn House of Commons up in the House! We'll see that clip on all the Sunday talking head shows, make no mistake!

[jazzjunkysue]

108. At least the debate happened. I never thought anyone would say it

out loud. This is what we should have done in 02. At least the debate started.

[MADem]

202. I'm glad it has started, too

I have to say, there are days when I feel like a rocket scientist, because I have been opposed to this misadventure in Iraq from the git-go. I, like many here, have gotten into heated debates with mindless morons, simple folk who don't pay attention to politics, and assholes who love war but won't fight one, and won't send their kids, either. One thing I am glad I did during these exchanges is say "When I am proven right, and I will be, I want you to get your ass back to me and kiss my foot (or other body part)!" I followed up with "REMEMBER what I said--remember it!"

Well, quite a few of my hawkish pals have come 'round, and when the subject of the war comes up, as it will, have indeed acknowledged that I was right, they were wrong, and then, as though to EXCUSE their blindness to the obviousness of the blunder, they ascribe some fantastic abilities to me, like I'm a strategic Karnac the Magnificent, or Miss Cleo!

I guess there are some people in this world who just DO NOT have one of these:



To us, it is SO OBVIOUS, and always has been.

[bigbrother05]

104. No, the Dems voted to support the troops eom

[Laura PourMeADrink]

152. You are 100% right. Just like Kerry's thoughtful, detailed answers

during the campaign. We are not in that world anymore. All that survives of what people do and say are soundbites. If the Dems had voted yes, no one would remember all the technicalities of what went down - just that they want the troops out.

[LSK]

53. exactly

The average joe will see no difference between Republicans and Democrats.

What do you think Cindy Sheehan thinks of this vote?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

71. That was the republicans plan, to confuse the masses and smear the Dem's

Did it work? Probably. The masses aren't really into politics like you and I. They only know what they see on TV and to a lesser extent what they read. If this is mostly reported as "The House Democrats Overwhelmingly Votes Against Troop Withdrawal" That's all they will know.

We all know how well the media has done at being fair and balanced in the past. Some good stories start off strong and then get killed, others never even get a chance.

[Generic Other]

87. Seems like the majority of DUers have found some silver lining

in this vote. All I found was some belly button lint.

I feel as badly as I did when they voted to give B*sh war powers.
Deja Vu.

[Mr_Spock]

165. Only a simpleton would think the Dems voted to back the war...

I am not buying all this oh boohoo whining and the lack of political knowledge here. It's making me sick to my stomach :puke:

[upi402]

56. progressives can't lose on this stunt, most Americans are against the war

and not coming out against takes away ammo from ReichWing loudmouths.

[wisteria]

58. Some DU's just don't understand and they never will, sorry! n/t

[still_one]

63. I understand, but the only way the vote can hurt us is if the dems

remain silent about what happened, and that won't be

what has happened is that the repukes have declared war on the democrats

I don't think it will happen, but even if the democrats reverted back to their head in the sand ways, the events that have started by Fitzgerald, and the acceleration of casulties will destroy them

[Justice Is Comin]

74. You're not dealing with people who sit and watch C-Span all day.

That vote is official record now that Democrats who now oppose the war voted not to end it. That is what the republicans will be shouting.

If you think Meet the Press is going to straighten that out overnight, you didn't take a good look at the mind boggling things people thought and still do which Bush counted on.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

76. Things like...Saddam Hussein was behind the bombing of the twin towers?

You mean things like that, which I still have to refute at least once a week?

[Justice Is Comin]

101. Correct a mundo.

There are many many millions who still think there were Iraqis piloting the planes for Christ's sake.

[Blue_Roses]

65. while I respect your "passion" on this thread

Do you honestly think that after 2,3,4,5 years of this administration the repubs would fall over and say "we give". This unfortunately is a game. A game that has to be played by the most articulate hands. That has been done. It will continue. To think that this would be a "slam-dunk we're out of Iraq" tonight is naive and careless.

I trust Murtha. He's smart and he's passionate about this. The one thing that I noticed about him above all the rest is--he's sincere. He cares about these vets he's seen and knows that this administration is full of bullshit. In these times of INSTANT everything "we just can't wait"...well, sorry, but you will have to wait.

We are out numbered--only for now:evilgrin:

[Chicago Democrat]

78. yup I agree...

they getting their game on..

Its the second quarter and were down 10 points ... BUT EVERYONE ON THEIR TEAM HAS 4 FOULS! so things are looking good.

[Oilwellian]

73. Why should the Dems have voted yes...

for a "Sense of the House" Resolution? Even if it passed, it wouldn't go to the Senate and is therefore non-binding. Murtha filed a Joint House Resolution and called for a "practicable" withdrawal. And why does he want a withdrawal like that? Because it's extremely dangerous for the troops if an immediate withdrawal took place.

The republicans are playing games which only makes sense when you consider how they've treated our military so far. I would have been pissed if the Dems voted yes for Duncan's resolution because it would have sent a reckless and cavalier message to our troops. IMHO, the repubs made fools of themselves today.

Personally, I wish only one Dem had voted on this disgraceful Resolution. Murtha, and Murtha alone, should have voted no. :D

[Chicago Democrat]

77. Democrats Suck: They are the WORST PARTY

except for every other party.


:)

[gnorville]

88. dead right

You hit the nail on the head, Laura. Compromising priciples is bad.

[Lex]

91. True! That's EXACTLY why the Dems didn't vote for a Repuke counterfeit

resolution.

[alcibiades_mystery]

89. That and a token'll getcha on the subway

You are of course entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to think it is a fucking stupid opinion.

[The_Casual_Observer]

90. You sound like Walt Star

[Charlie Brown]

96. Did you read Hunter's resolution?

"It is the sense of the House that deployment of U.S. forces in Iraq be terminated immediately."

Can you imagine the confusion in the field if this bill had somehow passed (I'm assuming the Senate would also vote on it, and the Prez would recognize it)? The brass would have to mass our military units back to Kuwait, to await transportation (by ship, mostly). There would be mass confusion.

Of course, even if this bill had passed, the Administration would not have recognized it as legitimate ("It is the Sense of the House..."), and the War would continue.

Any military pullout requires planning, procedures and oversight. No sane person would vote for this bill (sadly, that includes McKenney, Wexler, and Serraro).

[jazzjunkysue]

110. Right. It was a start of the debate. It's gotta start somewhere.

[madville]

97. Two weeks from now

Two weeks from now you could interview average Americans and I would bet at least 90% would have no clue what happened tonight regardless of what side they are on. '06 is going to be dependent how this and other events are "advertised and sold" to middle America because in all honestly I really believe most people don't care enough to pay attention to current events. This will be spun to benefit both sides in some way or another and the side that repeats their message the most will imprint it in the minds of the uncaring. It is sad but people's attention spans are too short to pay attention to all these "boring" government actions nowadays.

[Festivito]

109. This 97 & 73 are good. CON-immediacy-idiocy-no. (welcome madville)

Democrat Murtha's bill, YES; Immediate-withdrawl-Republican bill NO.

Everytime this gets said,
say it with Democrat,
say it with RepubliCON.

To disagree-ers: it's done; time to educate voters what was Dem, what was CON. Repeat-REPEAT.

73: good points, succinct, short.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5402171#5402904

or,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5402171&mesg_id=5402904

[Tom Joad]

98. Most do not support even Murtha's resolution. They want to *win* in Iraq.

I hope this changes. Yes, Pelosi has been terrible. And she misRepresents the most anti-war districts in the nation.

I do understand voting against this res, but they will not likely support Murtha's either. I will gladly eat my words if Murtha has 150 co-sponsors for his resolution next week, but i will be surprised if it gets 50 by the end of the year.

Hackett, a hero to some around here, very explicitly said this is not a unjust war, merely "mismanaged" (I'm sorry, it's like saying that is a "badly managed" robbery). Most who are already in Congress would agree. So the consensus among Dems in Congress is that this is not an "illegal war".

you are right Laura. this is one stupid, horrible, illegal, immoral crime. And you are also right to emphasize the people who we should worry most about being in harm's way. The Iraqi people. I wonder how many of those folks even Murtha has visited??

[autorank]

100. Here's what it was--GNewt Gingreich shutting down the government in

'94 I think. People saw that as an unbelievably hostile and insincere act, enough people to boost Clinton up to permanent popularity, enough to sustain him through the idiotic impeachment stunt.

The Republicans are a bunch of clowns, they are truly "The Insane Clown Posse."

People will see that and they'll be sure to see Ms. Schmidt's Kirk-Out!

Priceless, what a campaign tool.

I share your frustration that we couldn't have had a bit of Harry Reid-Robert Byrd parliamentary brilliance. Harry and Bob will have a moment like this in the Senate. The Republicans are one trick poney's.

Just wait for that, they'll get the Schmidt kicked out of them;)

[RagingInMiami]

102. I agree with you

It was time to play politics with politics. It's time to show unity. It's time to show that they won't be intimidated by strong arm tactics.

I AM SICK OF WEAK DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS AND THE DEMOCRAT CITIZENS WHO ACCEPT IT.

[Vinca]

105. I really disagree with you.

The bill put up was not Rep. Murtha's, it was an imitation placed only for political purposes. I don't care if we make headlines or not. Democrats called it for what it was - a cheap trick - and weren't suckered in. This is an opening to bring up a saner, more thoughtful plan of action. Any moron knows you can't say, "Okay, that's it, in 24 hours we're outta here." It has to be a phased withdrawal and Murtha's right that troops need to be stationed "on the horizon" in case all hell breaks loose. Don't forget. This country's government created this mess. The only thing worse than staying is leaving without a plan.

[Disturbed]

106. The Corp. Media reported this event accurately.

It was a stunt by that asshole Rep. Hunter. Dems voted no to Immediate Withdrawl. Not many people are for that but now a majority of Amerikans are for a drawdown within the next 6 to 8 months and that was Murtha's concept. This issue will not fade away. Murtha is no wimp.

[EFerrari]

107. Right on. He raised the question. No one can undo that now.

You can't unknow something without going to a lot of trouble.

No wimp, indeed.

[jazzjunkysue]

112. Agreed. Once it's "out there" you can't out it back in. Breaking the

PNAC shell won't be a delicate matter. You do it with a sledge hammer and close your eyes and hope you'll hit something. To stop our imperialism will take lots of gutsy, risky moves. Even if the repugs try to disarm us, it's better to give voters something to hope for than to just stand around and place blame.

We tried something and the power of the majority didn't allow it. Maybe that will help turn over the majority in 06.

[EFerrari]

114. Watch. Today is the day this turns.

I'm of the opinion that our last election was stolen so, that's my bias. And never in my nearly 50 years have I EVER seen the mobilization and the collaboration we put on to get these criminals out of office.

We need to get rid of the voting machines or go open source unless we want our elections to be expensive useless exercises.

But today, the Republicans lost the country.

Watch.

[jazzjunkysue]

201. I agree. They showed their faithful that even with all 3 branches, they

must resort to dirty tricks.

The screaming will get alot of people watching CSPAN. Let's hope it continues.

[EFerrari]

205. I don't think it can be stopped.

My breathing is finally normal after FIVE YEARS of worrying about my kids and nevvies.

:toast:

[spancks]

111. I agree with you, Laura.

Once I finally got to see the highlights of the day's events (on-line because I don't have a TV), I was proud of the Democrats' speeches, and I was moved to tears by Murtha as well, but I would have been happier to see the Dems all vote "present".

Most people just read the headlines like, "House Rejects Iraq Pullout After GOP Forces a Vote" for example, and then move on, oblivious to the details.

I was hopping mad yesterday afternoon over the Dems' strategy(Pelosi's in particular), and got accused of "going off half cocked". So I'm happy to see today (after having felt properly chastised yesterday) that I'm not the only one who was not completely delighted by the Dems' response.

I'm calmer today about the whole thing; and I guess I'll just be keeping my fingers crossed that our side can keep the details in front of the American public despite the inevitable bullshit avalanche that the Repugnican / Faux News noise machine surely has prepared for us.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

125. Update: We were right !

[spancks]

136. It makes me sad.

[ComerPerro]

116. They are gonna use this as a chance to say that Dems are "flip-floppers"

I can see it now:

But when he had the chance, he voted against bringing our troops home

[EFerrari]

119. They are. And it won't work. The question has been raised. nt

[lonestarnot]

121. Nothing repukes do is going to work at this point! Flipfloppers Butt!

Given cherry picked information? YES Voted for war based on lies by people in charge? YES Dems are stopping the Bastards' war of lies! Americans have seen through them and it is going to end!

[ComerPerro]

157. Do you really think the average non-political person

is going to have access to all that information? And, even if they do, do you think they will actually take all that into consideration?

Republicans win because they treat Americans as though they were morons, feeding them the most simplistic soundbytes and the most memorable catch phrases.

And, the Republicans are probably right.

If the average American did any of their own research, even for ten minutes, Bush would have been impeached by now.

[Tennessee Gal]

120. In my opinion, the Dems did the right thing.

Murtha proposed a resolution that would force the president to withdraw the nearly 160,000 troops in Iraq "at the earliest practicable date." It would establish a quick-reaction force and a nearby presence of Marines in the region. It also said the U.S. must pursue stability in Iraq through diplomacy. That is not cutting and running. And Murtha did not bring his resolution to the House floor. He merely proposed it in an attempt to get a reasonable dialogue going on the Iraq war progress.

The House bill under consideration last night was brought forward by a Republican. Not a Democrat. And they did it for purely partisan reasons.

H.RES.571
Title: Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.
Sponsor: Rep Hunter, Duncan (introduced 11/18/2005)

It will forever be in the House records that a Republican put forth a bill calling for the immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq. It will forever be in the House records that Mr. Hunter voted against his own bill as did all other Republicans, thus recording for history that the Republican Party used the House of Representatives for purely political purposes.

Duncan Hunter made up his bill to frame Murtha as a 'cut and run' Democrat. It called for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. The GOP immediately began calling it "Murtha's propsal" to try to pin this on him, and tried to make it appear as if they were going to actually vote on Murtha's bill. But several times in the debate they were forced to acknowledge that it was Hunter's bill being debated.

This had NOTHING to do with a real bill to get our soldiers home and EVERYTHING to do with a swiftboating of John Murtha! It was done only for political posturing.

And the one person who had to withdraw her remarks was a REPUBLICAN, Rep. Jean Schmidt of Ohio, because she insinuated that John Murtha was a coward. A fine way to begin her Congressional career!

[spancks]

131. Yes, we know that already,

thanks.

The point is that the way the Dems have handled it gives the cons and their bile machine all the ammo they need to continue to muddle the issue for the non-politically-passionate segment (read: "overwhelming majority") of the American public.

MSM is already confusing the issue, and it hasn't even been 12 hours since the vote.

[Tennessee Gal]

184. I disagree. That was the reason for my post.

MSM talking heads can be corrected with the facts and I predict that is what Democrats will be doing.

Democrats in both the House and Senate have shown a lot of courage in the last few weeks. I doubt they are about to back down now. What happened last night gives them even more ammunition.

[laureloak]

122. They voted against being "Cut and Run" Democrats.

I think they did the right thing. The Dems are trying to force the administration to come up with a plan for withdrawal. Republicans say "Dems don't have a plan" but it's THEIR mess, not the Democrats. They're the ones in power - they created this mess - let them come up with the solution. Meanwhile we Dems can try, and I stress "try" to keep them honest and focused.

[DemonFighterLives]

123. I'm glad I read this thread

now I know what to think. This was a stunt. How could Hunter who loves all things warlike and loves Gitmo even call for withdrawl with a clear conscience?

That Schmidtwitch said a lot in her first time out. Also that guy (grundy sp?) yelling IslamoFascists tipped his hand. That is the new meme and Rummy was using it too this week. All the chickenhawks love war as long as someone else is dying.

According to c-spn this morning, the pukey freepers think they won big and showed the democrats as war lovers.
Now let's get em!

[KG]

124. what did you expect? the dem party isn't anti-war.

the cluster-fuck in iraq is a bi-partisan effort.

[guajira]

126. Flame away -- I'm ashamed of Dems today!!!!

Dems should have gotten together and said - "OK Repukes, we'll play your stupid game!"

Then they should have abstained from voting, or walked out, or voted YES to leave Iraq immediately.

Instead they acted as if this were a legitimate resolution, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't come back to slap them in the face - just like the Iraq Res. to give B* permission to invade has been used against us Dems over and over.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

128. It's already started = Dems vote no on pullout ! CSPAN callers

mocking the Dems about No vote.

[Jon8503]

129. I think you are wrong. They did the only thing that would work out

the best. If they did not do it with 100% participation it would have looked bad.

Hey, when you have 100% voting against the "immediate pullout" which was what the repukes authored and almost all of the repukes voted against it as well, what does it tell you. It was all a sham.

All that taxpayers money for that idiotic, political move by them basically backfired on them. Look at the speeches the dems got to say. The repukes had nothing new, "stay the course" "don't let them die in vain" I guess in other words lets have some more die so we can stay the course.

The dems won that little charade and I have berated them on here a lot. But they hung in there they stuck 100% together, they had a plan. Not much more you can ask of them.

[spancks]

134. It wasn't 100%

there were Dems who voted YES and there were also Dems who voted PRESENT.

Therefore, according to your reasoning, they looked bad.

We agree.

[Jon8503]

141. No We Do Not Agree - No dems voted for the repukes stunt.

There are reasons on not voting. No dems went against the party line.

[spancks]

142. yes we do -- not 100%

msnbc

Three Democrats, Jose Serrano of New York, Robert Wexler of Florida and Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, voted for withdrawal. Six voted present: Reps. Jim McDermott of Washington; Jerrold Nadler, Maurice Hinchey and Major Owens of New York; Michael Capuano of Massachusetts and William Lacy Clay of Missouri.

Like I said....
not 100%

Therefore etcetera, QED.

[Jon8503]

154. You got me on the withdrawal votes. So I have to say I was wrong

however, I will not admit to it was the wrong move to make for the overall party line. Still think they took the best direction in the matter and longterm will be better off for it than if they had voted for the "immediate withdrawal" which is totally irresponsible and not what Murtha was talking about. etc. W5

[KnowerOfLogic]

145. IWR was a repuke stunt, too. Look where dem yes-votes got us on that.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

158. stupid question : What is IWR?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

167. Iraq War Resolution. eom

[Generic Other]

168. Iraq War Resolution

The last time Dems voted with Repubs because it was politically popular to follow the lying leader.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

176. thanks, duh

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

132. Laura, you're right, and this morning NBC is making this into a victory

for the Republicans and against pulling out troops.

[lonestarnot]

133. Fuck NBC, now ask yourself what people REALLY think.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

137. You just can't say fuck NBC. It might take 3 years for people to catch-up

like they have about the war in the first place.

[lonestarnot]

138. Nope, not happening this time! That sentiment is bullshit!

NBC doesn't speak for me nor will I allow them to speak for me.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

143. From your mouth to the Universe's ears. I hope that people can see

through this bullshit. I still believe that the Dems shouldn't have voted. Period.

[spancks]

135. *sigh*

All we can do now is hope our voices are louder than the cons and the muckrakers.

[KnowerOfLogic]

140. Correct. This was basically the flip side of the IWR vote, and dems blew

it again. What are they waiting for? for repubs to call for a pull-out first? Jeezus Christ, the democratic party is useless.

[Mr_Spock]

162. So they vote "yea" on a joke stunt - for what???????????

Why did all but three vote opposite of what you wanted?

They are not exactly stupid you know - I'm extremely proud of their performance last night. They were thrown lemons and made some damned good lemonade. :D

[Jon8503]

148. The resolution said "immediate withdrawal" not withdrawal. The

majority of the country is opposed to an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. As it would be totally irresponsible. Murtha wants to do it in a phased way.

If they had voted for an immediate withdrawal they would have had a problem on that one.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

156. But the resolution gave no details. Because of that, the Dems,

could have created their own interpretation. How's this scenario:

1. All Dems vote Yes

2. When asked later, they ALL say that their support of this resolution means "Immediately begin a safe and orderly plan to withdrawl troops from Iraq."

[Laura PourMeADrink]

160. Hello !! 85% want us out within 6 months. Close enough !

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/21466.exclude.html

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

164. Hello !! 85% want us to do it responsibly

Not on the heels of some bogus sham bill introduced by a REPUBLICAN with the intent of undermining our message.

The dems did exactly what they had to do last night, and got their message on record repeatedly. They stood up, they fought, and they acted honorably.

I don't get why some people will never be satisfied with anything the dems do, and need to hear everything perfect or have every single thing down to the slightest detail go their way or they get all huffy puffy.

I'm proud of hearing my dems speak for us yesterday, encourage them to keep it up, and think if we must use energy to be enraged it is far better suited for attacking the republicans that issued this sham bill, undermined a war hero, and acted shamefully in front of the american public then to use it on our own that stood up on our behalf and spoke valiantly.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

173. Hello ! Read #156

It is not about how I feel, or you feel, or the dems feel or the repigs feel.

It is about stopping the killing of soldiers and Iraqis. Every day we wait - more die !!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

179. Of course it is. But doing so on the back of a sham bill would be pathetic

And I read 156. Not much substance to it. If you think it all comes down to "when asked later", then what they already did was right, cause they just have to say "because this bill that was introduced was done so in a way that would harm our troops and undermine the entire cause of withdrawing troops from iraq responsibly. It was introduced in a manner that the GOP should be ashamed of themselves for, since it was no more than an attempt to smear a war veteran and hero in a completely politicized partisan manner with no regard whatsoever for our troops or American public"

If that's your whole argument, that they could just say something "when asked later", well, I'd far prefer they said something like above than what you had stated in your precious post 156 my dear.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

188. So sorry MY dear, I will expound. It is all about achieving a result

that transcends and rises above the bullshit.

First of all, I agree totally with your description of the resolution. You are right on point. Also, I believe that any choice we made, on how to actually vote or not vote, has negative consequences, since we are not in power and they control the situation. Therefore, they control what bills and resolutions are presented for debate and vote.

However, taken all that into consideration, the question is, how to you turn that around for a positive outcome - Sending a message that we want the troops out? How do you take this opportunity (which may not come again any time soon) and select the best course of action?

What I would have liked to see happen is this. Pelosi could have polled the Democratic caucus to get a feel for the split: 1. Stay the course, 2. More long term, phased withdrawal, 3. Short term under 1 year, and 4. Out now. Being the free thinkers that Democrats are, you know that there would be people in each category.

But let's say 85 % (pulling this out of my ass, but it was the result of a CNN poll, which 85% said out in 6 months or less) were in categories #3 and #4.

A damage control media plan could have been developed at that point. Any dem who was in #3 or #4 could have been asked to vote YES for immediate withdrawal. WITH THE CAVEAT, that everyone involved would immediately say when asked AND proactively, that the Democratic interpretation was that We want to immediately start a plan to safely and judiciously drawn down troops.

My point is that their fucked up resolution had a flaw. It did not give specifics. Therefore, the Democrats could have capitalized on this and created our own specifics (i.e. immediate plan for safe and judicious withdrawal)

Hell, I know this is not perfect. But it is still better than having the masses who are unaware of the political manueverings to hear that almost all democrats don't want to get out of Iraq. Because trust me, in the end, that is the only message that will survive. The MSM will not understand what happened and they will just abridge.

Better?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

192. Ok, I think you did great there.

I get a lot more where you are coming from now and think you did a very good job expanding on your reasoning in your post above.

I guess where I disagree is not with the message, but with the emotion (in the OP). I think the dems performed in such a way last night that I can be proud, and didn't agree with someone who perceived it as a reason to lash out at them.

I am glad you posted in the manner you did above, as I can know though we disagree on the emotional aspect of what happened, we are still on the same team where substance and goal is concerned.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

193. You are so right. When I learn how to control my emotions and

think before I speak, I will be a better person.

[goodhue]

159. I agree

I would have much preferred votes against illegal and immoral war.

[Mr_Spock]

163. So they vote "yea" on a joke stunt - for what???????????

This was politics, not some opportunity to make an anti-war statement. Why would we play their silly game and look like fools? It was a STUNT and the Dems didn't go for it.

[robbedvoter]

177. They REFUSE to vote on a joke stunt - how's that for ya?

That would have done it for me.

[Mr_Spock]

181. But the resolution WAS a stupid statemement.

They were stating that a PLAN will be required for pull out of Iraq. There was good reason to vote against such a brash statement. I'm sorry that the House couldn't please you in every way as they made history in beginning a critical debate to start the withdrawl of troops from Iraq.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

186. Mr. Spock -- So exactly when do you think the Dems will be

"Allowed" to debate and present a plan about it again? We'll be waiting and waiting for the opportunity again - as more die. I know and understand your points, but they are finer points known only to the informed classes. I am thinking big picture masses here.

[Mr_Spock]

187. The masses are already against the war - that is why the Repukes

even "allowed" this debate. You do understand that don't you? It's not going to be easy getting the Nazi Repukes to do the right thing - only pressure that says they will lose control of the House if they do NOT have a plan to pull out in place will get them off their murdering asses. Do you understand how politics works or do you think making half-cocked statements is how politics works? We don't have enough momentum to have that sort of coup yet - at least we got to this point - which is a LOT further than we were three days ago. People need to learn to be PATIENT!!! Fitzgerald took 2 fucking years before he brought an indictment - and he is in charge of his own actions. This is serious business and it will take time - but slow and steady it the RIGHT approach. That was a very bold thing that happened last night you know...

[Laura PourMeADrink]

189. Do you understand how politics works or do you think making half-cocked ..

Doctor,

That wasn't very nice !

Please read my response #188

[screembloodymurder]

171. I agree.

Pe-lose-i needs to be replaced with a strategist who has balls.

[elehhhhna]

185. honey, they abandoned their duty whene they voted Bush authority to invade

At the time I was PIZZED but consoled myself w/ the thought that they had cornered "plausible deniability". Turns out all the pigs are sucking from the same trough.

This country is run by WAR PROFITEERS. That's the problem.

[EFerrari]

195. Truth. Horrible and true. n/t

[Doomsayer13]

197. Kucinich voted against it

are you saying he abandoned his convictions too?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

199. absolutely not. I didn't see his name listed. That's great.

In fact, I think he made the most sense, during the debates, long ago. In essence, he said, it's immoral and a no-win. So get out now (2004). Why wait. Say you wait a year or another or three and then get out, it doesn't make sense, so get out now.

[YvonneCa]

198. Fight's not over...

...listen to John Kerry on Good Morning America THIS morning. This fight has only just begun...but WITH TONS of media attention. And all the Democrats are participating...even President Clinton (from abroad). Join the fight! Write LTTE's like crazy...make them positive, but DEFEND Murtha and Kerry. Watch Kerry's Georgetown speech from October 26th (It's on C-SPAN, click Iraq and scroll down...it will make you feel MUCH better:hug:...they're all together on this.) Here's my letter to the media. I also wrote one to the San Diego Union-Tribune (Duncan Hunter's city paper):

>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you for having Senator John Kerry on your show to discuss the path forward in Iraq. Both Senator Kerry and Congressman John Murtha (whom I support) are the true patriots...they are fighting for our country's future by speaking truth to power...that's a good thing, standing up for what you believe by working within our contitutional and legal systems to get things done. Anyone who is a citizen of this country should do the same. Again, thank you for having the senator on, and I hope you will find a way to publicize his ENTIRE plan for the future in Iraq by drawing attention to his speech on October 26, 2005 at Georgetown University called "The Path Forward in Iraq." He speaks eloquently and with great knowledge, detail, and compassion about what we should do for success in Iraq...the country needs to listen.<<<<<
<<<<<
<<<<<
:patriot:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

200. that is great ! I would love to see the Democratic caucus get

together for a weekend retreat. Get a real sense for where the majority is on this. And craft a united plan for withdrawal that most could agree to. Maybe some kind of cross between Kerry's and Murthas. Long enough to appease the more long term "stayers" and short enough to please the "get out now" people. We have been criticized much for "no democratic plan". Sure, individuals do, but it is much more potent coming en masse.

thanks!

[YvonneCa]

203. You're welcome...

...I think we Democrats will be together. To use John Kerry's words:

"I'm here for a set of hopes...and aspirations that we know make a difference to the quality of our lives."
Los Angeles Valley College
May, 2005

:patriot: