I have issues with any Democrat who does not sign on to Murtha's plan

[Walt Starr]

Murtha has drawn a line in the sand and it is a safe line for every last Democrat to work towards bringing our troops home.

To me, this is a defining moment in the war. Democrats can be for peace, or they can be for war. In my humble opinion, those who disagree with Murtha's plan to withdraw ALL TROOPS WITHIN 6 MONTHS are in favor of war. I don't care how they try to spin it.

[leftchick]

1. I heard a Democrat on wolfie's show yesterday who does not agree

with Murtha's plan. His initials are JFK. I agree with you Walt. That Democrat appears to be for War.

[Walt Starr]

3. To me, the only anti-war pro-troop stance is BRING THEM HOME

Anything short of that is pro-war and anti-troop, in my humble opinion.

[Mass]

6. I agree, but this is not what Murtha is proposing

While what he did is a great step forward, particularly given who he is, he is proposing to keep the troops close for future intervention (he said redeployment).

So, I certainly welcome his input. It is a HUGE sign for Bush and we should support him because of that. But dont make it what it is not.

[blm]

30. That's ABSURD. Explain all the differences between Kerry and Murtha

plans.

Tell us how drastically different they are.


And explain the coincidence that the day Kerry FINALLY gets to discuss the withdrawal plan he submitted 3 weeks ago, Murtha comes out with a 6 mo plan. Could it be that Murtha is baiting Republicans to force compromise for the more detailed 13-18 mo plan?

Coincidence?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0918-21.htm

Kerry Says President Plans Huge Call-Up
by Patrick Healy

ALBUQUERQUE -- Senator John F. Kerry accused the Bush administration yesterday of secretly planning to call up a substantial number of military reservists and National Guard units after Election Day to go to Iraq, opening a new front in the Democrat's ongoing attack that the president is concealing postwar instability in Iraq from American voters.

"He won't tell us what congressional leaders are now saying -- that this administration is planning yet another substantial call-up of reservists and Guard units immediately after the election," Kerry told 300 people at a community center here.

"Hide it from people through the election, then make the move -- that's not the way we do business in the United States of America, my friends. We deserve a president who tells the American people the truth, and when it comes to Iraq, George W. Bush simply won't own up to the truth. He hasn't all along. In fact, he'll do anything he can to cover up the truth."

The allegations came after the Kerry campaign this week asked Representative John Murtha of Pennsylvania, a congressional ally and Pentagon specialist, to provide evidence of the reservist plan in order for Kerry to escalate his questioning of Bush's handling of Iraq, aides to Murtha said yesterday. The aides said a relatively small number of new reservists would be involved, probably 2,000 to 2,500, but the idea that such a plan would be kept quiet until after the election spurred Kerry to focus on Bush's honesty as commander in chief.

[opihimoimoi]

2. I agree, Murtha makes sense and Bush sucks.

[KharmaTrain]

4. This Is Also Cover For Moderate Repugnicans

Thank-you Congressman Murtha...finally the way for the Democrats to follow is clear. I'm with you 100% on this, Walt...any Democrat who doesn't show any signs of support of this proposal doesn't deserve any of our support and should face as much wrath as DU can rain down upon them.

This also gives the Moderate Repugnicans cover, too...like Chris Shays and Mark Kirk...who are in heavily Blue districts. Now let's see the strength Blount has in keeping his troops together. If last night's budget battle is an example, we should be in for some fun times in the House next year.

[Just Me]

5. True because Murtha laid out a solid case for withdrawal.

This is certainly a marked turning point in our country. I feel like I've been waiting forever for this to finally occur. I'm so tired.

[Skittles]

7. I don't see it as a peace/war issue at all

I see it as being anti-FLAWED FOREIGN POLICY

[H2O Man]

8. I agree.

I think that Murtha set a strong standard. Democrats need to support him on this.

I am also very happy to have seen Wes Clark slap Sean Hannity last night. Democrats are in the position of strength.

[Mass]

9. Did Clark said he supported that?

Because last time I heard him, he did not.

[H2O Man]

12. He did not

comment directly on his opinion of Murtha's statement. He did a wonderful job of focusing on the administration's misrepresenting the truth in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. He also squashed Sean's attempts to portray the democrats' questioning of the Bush policies as unpatriotic. And he noted the need to formulate a plan to withdraw from Iraq. So you are correct that he is not endorsing an immediate withdrawal. But, as a democrat who thinks we should leave Iraq today, I think that Clark and Murtha are heading in the same direction. (And I'd bet Michael Moore would think so, too!)

[Mass]

13. I think most democrats are headed in the same direction

and this is what is important - This is why threads like that are nefarious. They focus on the details and not what is commun.

[H2O Man]

17. I am going to assume

that when you say "threads like that," that you are making reference to this thread. I could, of course, be wrong; it is not clear what thread you mean.

But this thread is indeed of value. Just the fact that you and I can disagree on that, indicates that all democrats do not think alike. And it is evident that while the majority of democratic voters feel strongly about the need to get out of Iraq, there is less evidence that the majority of elected democrats -- both in the House and Senate -- have been taking a strong position on this. Indeed, that is why the media is giving so much attention to Murtha's statement.

I will not be surprised if you see things differently. And you are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I'm glad that this thread allows us an opportunity to discuss those differences. That is a strength, too. A discussion of honest and sincere differences of opinion is a good thing. It helps the democratic party move in the correct direction.

[Peter Frank]

10. Kerry's still playing politics with the war...

He needs to have the balls to take a decisive stand. He can't wait for the polls to say it's OK to be controversial ;)

[KoKo]

24. CNN just showed a clip of Kerry snipped with him saying: "I respectfully

disagree" in response to their piece on Murtha. They kind of took it out of context making it seem like Kerry disagreed with everything Murtha said, though, rather than just the Iraq withdrawal timetable...but we sure didn't need Kerry putting his 2 cents in looking like he's dissing Murtha on the day Murtha is getting big press.

[blm]

28. WTF are you talking about? Kerry submitted his withdrawal plan 3 weeks ago

and again as a senate bill last week.

Murtha's 6 mo plan calls for redeploy NEAR Iraq after 6 mo.to be on standby for expected chaos.

That's smarter than a 13-18mo plan with steady and controlled draw down?

Ever consider that Murtha threw out his plan yesterday so it would pull more Republicans to compromise for the 18 mo plan? That's often how congress works. And Kerry and Murtha have a history of working closely together on military matters.

[Mass]

11. Ok - Just one question because I have had it yesterday.

So Murtha wants to pull the troops in a neighbouring country in order to be ready to reintervene if needed.

My questions:

- Where?
- How many?
- For how long?
- Permanent bases?
- ...

Murtha's plan is an important signal to the administration that even hawkish people do not support his plan anymore. By these standards, it is great.

Is it great in his details? Not that much. So are we allowed not to fawn on it and just recognize that what is great is that people who are NOT seen as lefty loonies are beginning to come to the idea that this was a flawed policy and that it needs to quit.

Please dont try once again to divide the Democrats. What is important here is what they have in common.

[LWolf]

14. Personally,

as a leftist-leaning liberal/progressive Democrat, hearing fellow Democrats use the term "lefty loonies," and listening to them make excuses for, and passionately defend, Democratic reps who have, imo, dropped the ball since 2000, leaves me by the wayside.

That is the source of the chasms dividing Democrats these days. Just my loony left opinion.

[Mass]

16. I did not say they were, but whatever....

Good luck with keeping 100,000 troops in Arabic countries.

HOME NOW!!!

[LWolf]

31. I'm not keeping them there.

I worked to nominate the candidate who voted against the IWR, and who had a "bring them home plan" in the '04 primaries.

I was referring to your use of "lefty loonies," and assuming that you are a Democrat. I feel like the attempt to point out that it's not just us "lefty loonies" who are concerned about Iraq legitimizes the right's use of the slur.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

18. Got a link to any DU post where a Dem has called a fellow Dem....

...a "lefty loonie"? While I certainly do not read every post on DU, I have never read what you claim to have seen.

I'm surprised that you're taking such a harse stand against Dem reps that voted to take military action against Iraq. As you should know by now, Congress did NOT see all of the intelligence data on Iraq. All they were allowed to see was the NIE Summary, a summary which was filled with unsubstantiated worst-case suppositions about Iraq and WMDs.

You should also remember that the NeoCons pulled high-level security clearances for just about the entire Senate several weeks before they got the NIE Summary. This made them incapable of reading any information above the level of "Secret", thereby limiting to a great extent the intelligence about Iraq to which they could have access.

One more point...any Dem that voted for military action against Iraq never dreamed that a sitting president (or whatever Herr Busch claims to be) would lie on so many different levels to get Congress' support. Now they know better, as do a majority of Americans.

[sandnsea]

20. Oh I have

There are loony lefties around here. Some of them repeat right wing talking points so often that if you didn't know better, you'd think they'd just been listening to Rush Limbaugh.

[LWolf]

32. See post 11 in this thread. n/t

[sendero]

15. What Murtha did...

.. is called LEADING. He didn't wait for the polls to say it was SAFE, he analyzed the situation and made a recommendation based on knowledge and experience.

As usual the defacto leaders of the party will now have to play catch-up.

[sandnsea]

19. Better read the fine print

I want the troops HOME, not just "over the horizon" in Kuwait. Either way, Kerry and Murtha are both calling for troops to start coming home in December. How about, for once, we all get on the same page. Whether it takes 6 months or 12 months to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis isn't as important as building pressure on Congress and the White House so that it gets done.

[Walt Starr]

21. At least in Kuwait they wouldn't be dropping like flies

Safe is good. Home is best.

[Mass]

22. How long before they start dropping like flies in Kuweit

Probably not that long.

[Binka]

25. It's Kuwait NOT Kuweit

Kuwait is our STRONGEST ally in the ME. I lived there for a spell it is a beautiful and very safe place. You need to hit the history books on US Kuwait relationships.

PS the Lefty loony comment really pissed me off. You are on a PROGRESSIVE board in case you forgot. I REALLY need to update my ignore list.

Blown up leg of my Lefty Loony son blown to shit by an IED in Ramadi!



GET THEM THE FUCK OUT OF IRAQ NOW!!!!

[Mass]

26. I am sorry for your son (fault of a better word).

As for the "Lefty Loonies" comment, you mistundertood me, I think.

I never called anybody like that (I tend to agree with many of them anyway), but some other people do, whether you like it or not, and all I was saying is that nobody in their right mind could stick Murtha with this label.

[sandnsea]

29. Until they're ordered back in

For a "quick attack". Or until the bombing starts in Kuwait.

Don't do this again. Haven't we lost enough time arguing over "withdrawal" vs. "success", when every Democrat's goal was to get the troops out. Feingold had a target date of Dec 2006, same as Kerry. Murtha is 6 months. I already had arguments about that yesterday from people who think we can pull out 150,000 troops overnight. They don't even understand Murtha is calling for 6 months. Don't create a fight where there isn't one. December Drawdown. Let's all get behind it.

23. I thought people were misspelling Martha, oops

Murtha

[blm]

27. You think 6mo and then redeploy NEAR Iraq is smarter than 13-18 mo

withdrawal? Can you explain how that would work or the significant differences between Murtha's plan and Kerry's?

Tom Hayden felt Kerry's withdrawal plan was good because it was DOABLE.

And don't think that Murtha is out there on his own - he's likely baiting Republicans to force compromise for the 13-18 mo withdrawal plan.

The day Kerry finally gets to talk to media about his withdrawal plan submitted 3 weeks ago and that morning Murtha offers a 6 mo plan?

Here's one for the coincidence theorists:


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0918-21.htm

Kerry Says President Plans Huge Call-Up
by Patrick Healy

ALBUQUERQUE -- Senator John F. Kerry accused the Bush administration yesterday of secretly planning to call up a substantial number of military reservists and National Guard units after Election Day to go to Iraq, opening a new front in the Democrat's ongoing attack that the president is concealing postwar instability in Iraq from American voters.

"He won't tell us what congressional leaders are now saying -- that this administration is planning yet another substantial call-up of reservists and Guard units immediately after the election," Kerry told 300 people at a community center here.

"Hide it from people through the election, then make the move -- that's not the way we do business in the United States of America, my friends. We deserve a president who tells the American people the truth, and when it comes to Iraq, George W. Bush simply won't own up to the truth. He hasn't all along. In fact, he'll do anything he can to cover up the truth."

The allegations came after the Kerry campaign this week asked Representative John Murtha of Pennsylvania, a congressional ally and Pentagon specialist, to provide evidence of the reservist plan in order for Kerry to escalate his questioning of Bush's handling of Iraq, aides to Murtha said yesterday. The aides said a relatively small number of new reservists would be involved, probably 2,000 to 2,500, but the idea that such a plan would be kept quiet until after the election spurred Kerry to focus on Bush's honesty as commander in chief.