teen couple with murdered parents were home schooled

[medeak]

14 yr old girl says her interests were "jesus" online..where she met boyfriend (also home schooled) who murdered her parents.

Hello freepers! Do you think it's healthy to homeschool and keep kids isolated?

[Beaverhausen]

1. oh yeah...butter anyone?

:popcorn:

[babylonsister]

6. Can I interest you in a

beer to go w/that popcorn? :beer:

[medeak]

10. wonder how Fox will go with this one?

not to mention Court TV salivating

[Beaverhausen]

26. All I know is how DU will go with this one

guess you missed all the other home school threads.

[medeak]

49. what happened?

locking I presume?

[Robert Cooper]

14. Have you ever noticed...

how many murderers own knives, forks, spoons and dinner plates?

Obviously cutlery and dinner-ware are a common denominator that can, in susceptible individuals, lead to anti-social behaviour.

Notice how people who eat off the floor with their fingers are -never- accused.

=8-}

[mzteris]

31. Exactly..........

:rofl:

[SoCalDem]

45. How bout a virtual coke machine>? pick yer poison

http://www.virtualvender.coca-cola.com/vm/Vending.jsp

[Wabbajack]

110. Hey they got a bunch of stuff I've never seen in a store

Barq's Floatz? Inca Kola?

[ohio_liberal]

12. Will you share some of that?

This is going to be fun to watch.

[tamtam]

71. Move over

I don't know how I missed this topic :popcorn:

[ComerPerro]

112. I thought the same thing

[mzteris]

2. I'm not a freeper

But I homeschool.

Many liberals do.

The vast majority of murders are carried out by the public schooled.

You've just failed Logic 101.

[trotsky]

4. You didn't do so hot yourself.

The vast majority of murders are carried out by the public schooled.

Well, yeah, because the vast majority of students are public-schooled.

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

15. ~

:evilgrin:

[mzteris]

22. Um - excuse me?

That was my point.

His logic was faulty by saying they were murderer's because they were homeschooled. By that logic, PS kids would not be murderers. They are - in higher PERCENTAGES btw - not just numbers, ergo - he was completely off base.

By his logic he could've said Ludwig was a murderer because he uses a computer!

[trotsky]

75. You didn't say higher percentages.

You said "the vast majority." When you accuse someone else of making a logical error, you need to make sure you're not making one as well.

[mzteris]

78. I stand by what I said

Public schoolers do make up the VAST MAJORITY - you even admitted that, but tried to deflect it by saying that the vast majority of kids ARE PS.

Which is true.

At that time I made the decision to point out that the PERCENTAGE of ps murderers is higher than hs murderers.

You're still batting zero.

[trotsky]

94. Umm, of course it's true.

I never disputed that. But by trying to make that the focus, you're displaying just how much you missed the point.

You didn't clarify, by claiming it's percentages (without documenting that claim, BTW), until AFTER your initial post - the one I responded to and pointed out your logical error.

Your initial statement, that the vast majority of (school-age) murders are committed by public school students, is about as meaningful as stating that the vast majority of NASA astronauts killed on the job were white men.

If the purpose in your initial post was to make as great a logical error as you claim the O.P. did, then it was a success.

[mzteris]

128. I don't follow your logic at all

What I said "is" true - the majority of murders are committed by ps'ers.

That the majority of kids in US are ps'ed is also true.

That I also later added the statement as an added comment to YOU - that the percentage of ps murderers is higher is also true.

So I still don't get where you're saying I failed.

I didn't miss the point - the OP was implying that the reason they murdered was because they were hs'ed. I was attempting to show him how patently ridiculous that statement was.

Now you get it?

[trotsky]

134. OK, I'll try a slightly different angle.

Suppose someone made the claim that non-Caucasian people are more likely to be serial killers. (Please note: I do not in any way think this is similar to what the O.P. claimed. Just making an example.)

Then suppose I counter by saying that the vast majority of serial killers in the U.S. are Caucasian.

Well, naturally, my statement is true. But because the vast majority of this country's population is Caucasian, that doesn't directly refute the first person's statement.

You wisely came back to make the proper claim, that public-schooled kids are murderers in higher percentages than home-schooled kids. But that is different than your first claim, and besides, you haven't yet provided documentation of that claim.

How's that?

[mzteris]

140. THAT WAS THE POINT *I* WAS MAKING

about his point. (sigh)

As for the documentation - I told you, I don't have it now, and I'm not going to look for it. You're welcome to - but simple common sense will tell you it is so.

[funflower]

51. I think that's the point. People are people (no matter where educated).

[DS1]

122. Fucking weak

[medeak]

7. sorry

but I disagree. Best friend said her biggest mistake was homeschooling her kids beyond jr high age. They had terrible problems as couldn't assimilate with others.

[mzteris]

28. "Assimilate"????????

ROFL..........

They had terrible problems because the girl was "boy crazy". If she'd've been in PS, it likely would have been worse.

There is NO causative correlation between HS'ing per se and the fact that this terrible event occured.

[The_Mule]

29. Are you suggesting...

that we all live according to your best friend's views?

[Robert Cooper]

47. And Colombine doesn't show what happens to public school kids?

[sniffa]

85. coLumbine is the american dream

getting back at those who may have, or have actuaLLy, wronged you.

[Robert Cooper]

88. now -that's- a scary thought nt

[Dora]

115. Or might some day possibly wrong you...

pre-emptive revenge rocks!

[funflower]

55. God. How long does it take to learn to "assimilate"? And why do we

want people to do it anyway? I think "assimilation" is pretty damned overrated.

[Bluebear]

13. Everything else aside, check your logic, too

Most people are public schooled, hence most murders are carried out by public schooled, no? :hi:

[mzteris]

30. MY POINT

See my reply to other poster who thought "my logic" all wet.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5357998&mesg_id=5358160

[Bluebear]

38. GOTCHA :)

[bobbieinok]

58. many have forgotten that the big push for homeschooling came in the 60s

from parents who did not like what they termed the 'one size fits all' approach to education in the public schools

it was the hippies and others who made home schooling a legal alternative

later fundamentalist christians began home schooling and acted as if they were/are the only ones doing so

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzteris]

69. Young man?

I'm probably old enough to be your mom! :rofl:

We've debated this topic before, just search homeschool in DU and you'll find 'em.

[devilgrrl]

82. Yeah, your profile so gave me indication that you were old enough...

to be my mom. :sarcasm:

[mzteris]

83. teehee

I woulda thunk the MZ was a clue.... :)

[Robert Cooper]

102. Not "mzter" - "is", eh? ;-) nt

[trotsky]

96. Good luck getting numbers.

I haven't seen any yet. I guess we're just supposed to take her word for it.

[mzteris]

129. Don't know how to use the search function?

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=2767

[trotsky]

132. Sure I can search.

But I don't see what you're claiming in that thread. Might be I just can't locate it in 110+ posts of mainly bashing.

You stated:

(Public school children) are (murderers) - in higher PERCENTAGES btw - not just numbers

You may indeed be correct, I honestly don't know. But I'm just asking where you got that information from. Got a link?

[mzteris]

133. I thought you were referring to

test scores.

The person to whom you were replying has been elfed so I was going from memory.

As for the information about higher percentages of ps being murderers than hs'ers - no, I dont' have anything handy for you.

Check the numbers. How many people are on death row for murder and how many of them were hs'd? Not very many. And no, I don't have a ref for you. It was from research I did about 3-4 years ago that I no longer have available. I was researching the correlation between pedophilia and hetero/homosexuals - but information re: education came up during my searches. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it. :)

But it IS the only logical conclusion. :shrug:

[trotsky]

135. You still don't see the logical error.

How many people on death row for murder are atheists?

I think you'll find that the vast majority of them are Christians and Muslims.

Does this mean atheists are more moral?

There are FAR fewer home-schooled kids than public-schooled kids. So, naturally, we should expect to see far MORE public-schooled kids in just about any random grouping of the population. More public-schooled doctors. More public-schooled lawyers. More public-schooled teachers. More public-schooled police officers. More public-schooled killers.

Now that doesn't mean that public-schooled kids make "better" members of any of those professions, not at all. Just that using raw numbers won't make the argument you're trying to make.

[mzteris]

141. Does this mean atheists are more moral?

Well - probably. I mean, atheists are moral because they WANT to be, not because they want the reward of "heaven" nor fear "hell", right?

:)

"Just that using raw numbers won't make the argument you're trying to make."

I wasn't using raw numbers - whatever - you'll just have to trust me on this unless you want to do the research yourself.

BOP and DOJ is one place to start. Try Statistics education and prison.

[trotsky]

142. You're the one making the claim.

It's your responsibility to do the research. Let me know when you find the numbers to back you up.

[mimitabby]

3. it keeps them away from those undesireables

and the bad influences that they might meet in PUBLIC school.

how ironic!

[funflower]

57. I think this view makes sense if you oppose ALL private education or

school choice of any kind. Homeschoolers are not the only parents who make an effort to choose the kind of influences to which their children are exposed.

[WI_DEM]

5. I don't really think home schooling has anything to do with it

[mimitabby]

17. it depends

at least teachers are required to have some education,
there are requirements. Any child molester, moron,
drug addict etc who can produce children can also home school them.
Of course most people home schooling their kids have the bare
minimum qualifications; but in my own family, we have two different
families homeschooling their ample families, with the "teacher" being
mom who didn't graduate from High School.

I don't think just being a parent makes you competent to teach.

[mzteris]

40. Being a "teacher"

doesn't necessarily make one competent to teach either.

What state do you live in that doesn't require at least a high school diploma? Most states do have requirements for the parent to homeschool their children.

Yes, there are totally and completely unqualified "parents" as teachers - of course most of them are completely and totally unqualified as PARENTS - but this country hasn't gone the route of forbidding people to BE parents except in cases of egregious abuse/neglect.

I think if you check the stats that are available, the majority of hs'ed students consistently outperform PS'ers. Even using such an arbitrary system as tests.


This horrible incident is not predicated upon HSing. If that kid had've been in PS, maybe he'd've shot up an entire school instead, eh?

[LeftyMom]

62. That depends on the state's requirements

In CA the requirements are the same as all other private school teachers (a vauge pronouncement that a teacher should be qualified and that those qualifications should be kept on file) while other states with specific homeschooling statutes sometimes require classes or additional supervision for homeschooling parents without degrees (Washington is an example of this approach.)

[funflower]

65. Google teacher+arrest. You'll be blown away at what you find.

No certificate program can screen out the child molesters, drug addicts and miscellaneous jerks.

And teacher crimes don't make the national news the way homeschooler crimes do.

[Cactus44]

8. I doubt it was a factor. n/m

.

[rodeodance]

9. sometimes home schooling is best for the child given the area schools.

There is nothing inherently wrong about home schooling.

[medeak]

11. IF home schooled get social skills

and are not kept in the house 24/7 like in the small town I live in.

[funflower]

35. I support public high school IF the kids get decent social skills - not

like the brainless mall-rat Stepford Kids in our local public high school.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Caution]

16. If the parents use a decent curriculum that actually teaches

them the same things that kids publicly schooled learn.

Things like evolution, math, literature such as Huck Finn, The Jungle, The Grapes of Wrath and The Catcher in the Rye.

Most people that I meet that are home schooled are ignorant of so much that it's a shame that a good idea could be so badly implemented.

[mzteris]

46. Unless you're in Kansas, eh?

You've probably primarily met the "religious" type homeschooler - not the "we homeschool for educational reasons" homeschooler type.

Big diff. :)

[ebayfool]

59. Many home schooled kids actually surpass the education levels they ...

would have achieved if they were sent to regular public schools (have you seen the national spelling bees or science competitions?). You could switch the statement:

"Most people that I meet that are home schooled are ignorant of so much that it's a shame that a good idea could be so badly implemented."

to:

"Most people that I meet that are public schooled are ignorant of so much that it's a shame that a good idea could be so badly implemented."

Both statements are valid in different places & situations!

I don't think home schooling is an option that is for everyone, but it is a choice that can be the best one for many. The fact that those kids were home schooled probably had less to do w/these murders than their fundy (I'm making a guess, here) upbringing.

Full disclosure here - I home schooled my grandson for 5 years. I originally started to get him away from the fundies that were taking over our little school & it's school board ... I continued because he took off like a bottle rocket! He's made the transition to public school very nicely, better than I had hoped, w/the option to return to home schooling if he chooses. So far, he's loving it. Girls at public school, & everything they are teaching we've already covered - what's not to like? LOL! DU has a homeschooling forum, for liberals that want support for their choice. I posted @ this after school session started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=251x273

Back to public school after 5 yrs homeschooling ...

I thought it might provide some small reassurance to others to post @ our (so far!) experiences, now that my grandson has returned to the public school system.

I have been homeschooling my grandson for the last 5 years (I've raised him since he was a baby - legal guardian), & some of my worries has always been whether he would have 'gaps' in his knowledge or the infamous 'socialization' thing.

I'm a working grandma (housekeeper for them that can't clean their own McMansions ... LOL!) so funds were very limited for the usual answers to 'socialization' like private classes for sports, trips, etc. The fact that he's being raised by a 'grand' anything also puts him another step removed from the common ground w/his peers around here, so this has been a very real concern.

He decided that he wanted, very much, to attend public high school this year - & since I've always tried to give his voice weight in decisions affecting himself ... he's doing it.

I'm so pleased to tell you that homeschooling this boy has left him miles ahead in all the classes they had open to him (he's in college prep), & the teachers are ALL in awe! The staff are in love w/the manners & maturity, the computer club drafted him the 1st week, the art club saw his sketches in art class & have co-opted his talents for their projects. The spanish, science & english teachers have him tutoring other students in class, but so far the other kids haven't held it against him - they seem to have accepted that he's smart & have decided that's why he's able to be funny (one girl told him that he had an 'intelligent' sense of humor ... that she liked that he was 'wry' - uh-oh! LOL).

I have left the option open for homeschooling & early college enrollment if he decides he wants it, but I really am relieved to see that he's able to traverse both worlds. All the state tests that he's taken over the last 5 years couldn't truly alleviate the small voice in the back of my head like seeing this. Pudding=proof? I wanted others that might have that 'little voice' to hear that all the hard work seems to pay off in ways unexpected & expected. I'm so happy we have homeschooled 'till now, & if he wants to go back to it later - I will be so much more confident (& rested - homeschooling is more work than anyone NOT doing it knows!).

BTW - 2 of the high school teachers have their primary-age kids in homeschool ... that in itself speaks volumes!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

63. Point on the spelling bee and geography bee stuff

Many of the homeschooled kids are "groomed" for those things. Some parents have been even known to home school specifically so they can prepare the kids for those "bees".

You know how they do the spelling bee in public school? Walk into class one random day. Teacher has you all stand up. Tells first kid "Spell (whatever)". Get it right, you keep standing. Get it wrong. Sit down. This goes on until one kid is left and they go against everyone else in the grade. There is no preparation or warning. Homeschool kids don't face that sort of trial by fire, and in that case are well ahead of the curve in the fact they don't have "one shot" to get it right.

[ebayfool]

67. True that - but my youngest daughter (public schooled) was a county ...

spelling champ for several years running in grade school. I think it has alot to do with the family setting - reading to them when they're little, helping w/schoolwork, nurturing a love of learning for itself & not just rewards (grades). We have never had a traditional family, but it has been (& is) one that encourages curious minds & appetites for knowledge.

Those same people that punch the kids up to excel in the bees or competitions would put the same grinding pressure on them in a public school setting. What you're describing kinda sounds like those people that have their little girls 'turned out' for all those 'Little Miss Something' beauty pageants - both are scary & oh-so-wrong, imo!

You do make a good point, TY!

[mzteris]

70. You know how they do the spelling bee in public school?

**Walk into class on Teacher has you all stand up. Tells first kid "Spell (whatever)". Get it right, you keep standing. Get it wrong. Sit down. This goes on until one kid is left and they go against everyone else in the grade.**

Not anymore they don't. Not for kids that actually make it very far, anyway. There are spelling bee clubs.

Look up the Scripps National Spelling Bee site for a gander at what's involved these days.

http://www.spellingbee.com/

There is no way a kid who's just a "good speller" will win these days.

Fact is, it's not always (ever?) just a matter of some pushy homeschool parent wanting their kid to "win" - many people hs their kids precisely because they are very/highly gifted and they would win these types of competitions even if they were in PS.

[kath]

101. NOT true at all, in terms of PS spelling bee - I should know, I was

2nd in NE Ohio in 8th grade. We knew FAR in advance when our jr high spelling bee would be, to see who would be the one to go to downtown Cleveland. We were given little booklets put out by Scripps-Howard newspapers to study from.

[Robert Cooper]

105. And how useful is that, really?

When was the last time the boss stood you up and demanded you spell "antiquarian" without the help of a dictionary or you'd be fired?

What you've described is one winner and 29 losers per class. Sure that one kid feels pretty good, what about the motivation to learn amongst the 29 losers? What about the kids who always lose? Why continue going to school only to be labelled "loser" time after time?

What do they learn from this: that there are far more losers than winners, that their lot in life is to be a loser and to avoid competitions, that they'd be better off making fun of winners like all the other losers, learning to fit into a culture where the vast majority are "losers". That nothing they do will turn them into a winner. That their hard efforts and sacrifice does not net them the winner's circle, why bother doing it again and again only to lose over and over.

School does not take care to ensure each kid feels special nor to teach each kid they have the potential for greatness, because each test betrays the lie.

I've a son who suffers from language delay. Any idea how hard it is to convince others that he's on his own path of learning, to resist the effort they make to compare him to kids without a delay? My son went from five words to three hundred words in 6 months. Know what the professionals gave him for the effort? They ran a test that placed him in the bottom 2nd percentile for language because we haven't taught him more words, despite the fact he isn't using any of the three hundred he already has to form sentences. As I said to the professional, give us the test and a month and our son will score much higher, but what's the point when he doesn't use any of the words to make a sentence? We're trying to teach him to communicate and the professional simply wants him to learn a bigger vocabulary, whether he uses it or not. The professional needs something he can measure to justify his involvement, even when the test has no practical value to the problem my son faces.

It's no different in school.

Thanks, but we don't need useless testing to turn kids into self-defeating, de-motivated losers.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

108. I don't disagree

My only point is it's unfair to hold public school kids to the spelling bee standards of homeschoolers who are trained in the damn things, yet don't have to face the "sudden death" mentality of the setup right at the start.

[Robert Cooper]

121. That looks like another plus for HS to me nt

[Gato Moteado]

18. i'll bet they were all repubs

any way we can find out?

[tularetom]

19. I don't know about repubs

but I'd almost guarantee that they were all fund-o-mentalists.

[devinsgram]

32. Bingo, you are so right.

The story is all they are talking about around here, we are about 40 minutes away from where it happened.

[0007]

20. What an overplay by the media on this crime. junior has committed

bigger crimes and more deaths and doesn't get one tenth the attention.

[funflower]

21. ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz. Boring, irrelevant flamebait alert....

:eyes:

[medeak]

24. hmm

your id is disabled? Talk about flamebait and walking away...LOL

[funflower]

44. My ID is always disabled. Ya' gotta problem with that?

[DBoon]

23. Don't blame home schooling

blame parents that isolate their kids from any sort of peer socialization.

Parents like this are drawn to home schooling as a way to isolate and control their kids.

There are bad reasons to home school and good reasons. The bad reasons make a disfunctional environment worse for the kids.

[medeak]

27. should have had "teen loves jesus &boyfriend kills parents"

as header me thinks.

[The_Mule]

25. They also had other things in common.

They were both teenagers, for example. Perhaps it's not healthy to be a teenager? That argument makes as much sense as your homeschooling argument.

How one decides to raise their kids is about as personal as it gets. I don't believe politics belong there.

[medeak]

34. am just reporting what CNN just said

"teens homeschooled, met online and 14 yr said she was 16 online and loves Jesus"

[The_Mule]

37. I didn't see the CNN piece,

so I'll take your word that CNN asked the freepers if they thought it was healthy to homeschool their children.

[readmylips]

33. Kids I know and love.....

My step-grandkids attend private christian schooling and do some home schooling. They are the worst lying kids I've ever met. They know how to twist and turn anything to their advantage because their parents believe in spanking. It's not just the spanking but the yelling, put downs, criticism and embarrassing those poor kids in public. All in the name of making them better Jesus christians. I'm the the step grandmother and there's not too much I can do. My hubby stepped in one day and he also got insulted and humiliated by his own son.

We used to get the kids every summer for one month. When it was time for them to go back home, they cried and didn't want to go. As punishment, they are not allowed to come visit with us anymore, and because I'm not a christian. I'm a Catholic.

[funflower]

42. I'm so sorry to hear about your step-grandkids. However, I don't see

the relevance. If you're saying that private education is not a magic bullet that overcomes poor parenting, I agree 100%.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

36. Wow.......

If some freeper came here and posted about a murder involving African Americans and said "See liberals, do you think it's right to give them their freedom and civil rights?", how would you respond?

[The_Mule]

41. Now that's a great question! Medeak? nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Undoubtedly all that suggestive "Christian Rock" they loved.

Tsk, tsk, I guess they'll have to have a giant CD burning.

[Orrex]

43. Help me out here

It seems that a bunch of respondents are either blaming the parents for their own murders (out of some "they were probably fundies, so they brought it on themselves" logic) or at least that they're suitable for ridicule.

For fuck's sake, we know almost nothing about the underlying situation, yet we feel perfectly justified in mocking a gunpoint abduction and two deaths on one hand, while righteously bitching about 2053 on the other.

Very fucking nice.

[medeak]

48. never met to blame the parents

Crickey...am rather naive and can't believe the heat here. Just responded emotionally to CNN and relating to friend who regrets homeschooling.

This was a friend who was convinced by her church it was the correct thing to do.

Am grateful I didn't do the same. Live in a very tiny isolated town (300 miles from a mall) and questioned the local school district but both my kids received an excellent education and admitted to prestigious colleges. Oldest in grad school in London and am looking forward to xmas to visit.

[Robert Cooper]

77. a clue...

You may have heard of all the metal-detectors at public schools, the random searches of bags and lockers for drugs and weapons, the ban on gang colours and cell-phones, and several cases of kids murdering other kids and teachers. It's been going on for years.

And then there are just thousands upon thousands of public school graduates and drop outs who go on to lives of crime. Like Nixon.

To my knowledge this is the first case of home-schooled kids killing anybody. Certainly the first I've heard of.

Consider the possibility you've made more out of this incident than it actually deserved.

The public schools don't have a lock on raising perfect children. Neither does home schooling. Each depends upon the quality of the people involved.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

50. Logic never fits into these threads

They are as pointless as running around the dog park and yelling at owners of poodles saying, "See! You're dog shits on the ground too!", like this is some revelation. Every sector of society has crap like this happen to them.

[readmylips]

52. I guess we mean home schooling is not the pot of goal...

parents are looking for. The parents are to blame. The kids didn't ask for home schooling. The parents are the ones who want to keep so called...bad public school kids....non christians...away from their white kids. Hey parents, welcome to the real world.

[Robert Cooper]

81. That would be "gold", right? ;-)

For over a million years human kids have been home-schooled, and they have had to face a "real world" that contained mega-fauna like cave lions, sabre-toothed tigers and cave bears (oh my), not to mention dire wolves and a variety of nasty creatures.

Not only did they have to avoid such encounters, but they also had to learn to find food (or kill it), skin carcasses, learn tribal lore, medicinal herbs, etc etc etc.

How many kids today can rub two sticks together and make fire? When a child is lost in the wilderness, how many days does that child have to be found? How many generations of ancestors do we have where there'd be no doubt that not only would the child survive, but the child would find his/her way back to the tribe?

From a few apes climbing out of the trees to over 6 billion humans, home-schooling has done alright.

By contrast public school is what, less than 200 years old? And we're well on our way towards cooking the planet with global warming, poisoning the air with the exhaust from internal combustion engines and chemical plants, all since the Industrial revolution that started, oh, less than 200 years ago.

And today some 75% of the kids are raised by both parents working, compared to fifty years ago where the norm was one parent working and one home-making (and I won't even mention the extended family of a century ago).

Never have so many slaved for so few, thanks to the group mind-set established by the government in public school.

I'll let you know if my kid takes an axe to me and the missus when we begin home-schooling (oops, that's right, we began that before he was born by reading to him and playing music, and then we taught him to roll over, sit up, walk, and now we're teaching him to speak and read and draw and be nice with the dogs...honey, where's the axe?... what? Oh no...Bobby, put down that axe!! ack------------------------

<edited by the coroner: typo>

[mzteris]

87. since when

did parents have to be trained to teach their kids how to walk, talk, use the potty, and the correct utensil at dinner, eh?


**I'll let you know if my kid takes an axe to me and the missus when we begin home-schooling **

very droll...

**that's right, we began that before he was born **

People don't understand that they ALL "homeschooled" their kids before they pack them off for the "experts" to teach WITHOUT any "training" whatsoever! (Except, of course, those with live in nannies who abdicated ALL responsibility for their own children from the getgo.)

I like the way you think, Robert.

There is a homeschooling group on DU; it doesn't get much traffic, but it's there if you need anything. :)

[Robert Cooper]

89. Big grin from me, hug from the missus: we'll see you there :-) nt

[thinkingwoman]

114. I am sooooooooooooo glad...

that I put down my cup of tea before I got to the end of your post! :rofl:

We've been homeschooling our liberal jewish-pagan-agnostic-atheist gifted children for 8 years now. For some reason, they don't fit in or feel appreciated at local Indiana schools. :shrug:

ANYway...I hope you find homeschooling as enjoyable and productive as we have. Family and friends (including 3 family members with 20+ years each as public school teachers) marvel at how happy and closeknit we are as a family, and how well-adjusted and mature our children are.

Our 17 year old, who has friends from all over the world but doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs, graduates this year ready to start her own business out in the real world she has been working in since she was 12 (we have a family biz). Our 14 1/2 year old son is dual tracking with a college prep curriculum and extensive 3D modelling work in hopes of being hired directly by a large video game designing company at 18. His mentor and friend was hired just last year and featured in a national magazine because of it. He, too, has friends from all over the world and avoids illegal and harmful substances. It's shocking isn't it?

Both of them laugh when I share posts from these types of threads at DU. They, like my hubby and me, cannot believe that people who claim to be openminded here at DU are so willfully stupid and bigoted against the very type of schooling that produced the great minds who founded this nation they claim to love--you know, the one that values individual freedom above group think. :evilgrin:

P.S. Don't stunt your poor kids growth by making them kill you with an axe. Buy a gun.

edited to add an "I"

[Robert Cooper]

120. educational -and- entertaining ;-)

Thanks for the encouragement. :-)

And try not to be too hard on them. The school system is a significant and oppressive control mechanism in our society that specializes more in rote than original thinking.

What's sad is the art of parenting is dying out. We're expected to raise them till they're potty-trained and then ship them off to the machine for indoctrination, which doesn't end till adulthood (if then).

What I found truly scary is the idea that the state can require kids of any age to attend school. Laws can be passed to induct them at much more tender ages than is now the norm. There was even an opinion in the Toronto Star claiming that future earning potential is enhanced if kids are inducted as early as four =8-{

I just 'love' the idea of pressuring four year olds to 'do well' because their careers hang in the balance.

"It's just another brick in the Wall" - P. Floyd

[Cats Against Frist]

53. I think it can be perfectly healthy to homeschool children

To assume otherwise is to bring an agenda to the table that I think has not a whit to do with whether it's healthy to homeschool children, or not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Considering that these kids met online,

I would bet the internet had a lot more to do with this murder than the fact that they were homeschooled.

[funflower]

60. Bingo! Proud2Blib and I agree for once! The HSing here may be a SYMPTOM

of a much larger problem, particularly with regard to the suspect.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. In this particular situation,

these kids met on the internet. So if you want to place blame anywhere but on this kid, the internet played a larger role than any other factor, IMO.

However, my finger is pointing at this kid. HE pulled the trigger, not the internet.

[funflower]

93. I read that his family owned a lot of guns. There's a hot button issue!

Think I'll stay out of that one!

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. LOL me too n/t

[funflower]

61. Y'all should also consider that this boy might have been expelled from

regular schools or had serious problems there and that is the reason he was "homeschooling."

[Akoto]

64. Oh, give me a break.

I completed the larger part of my education at home due to medical reasons. You can rest assured that I've never contemplated gunning down my parents, or anyone else for that matter.

The idea that kids are somehow 'isolated' from the world because they're homeschooled is also a crock. I am now in my twenties and work quite successfully with many people in the performing arts. I've nearly acquired a radio hosting gig and expect to live one of my dreams in doing so. On the whole, I'd tend to say that I've been very successful, and my choice of careers would certainly seem to reflect social skills.

I will grant you that I did not obtain my *entire* education at home, but the better part of it was acquired in that fashion. My parents ensured that I was still active and I turned out fine. In my opinion? If your child walks into a home, kills two people and abducts his 14-year-old "lover", his issues run deeper than not going to public school.

[northzax]

66. home schooling is remarkably like home lawyering or home dental care

with the right materials, instruction and some common sense, the average person can successfully deal with the majority of circumstances. It's only when there's a problem that you need a specialist.

but it's irrelevant anyway.

[pdxmom]

72. If the religious right takes over the public schools, I would

become one of those homeschoolers in a heartbeat.

[Kazak]

73. They're talking about bringing Intelligent Design to my state...

You can bet I'll be homeschooling if they do!

[FearofFutility]

76. As soon as I heard this story, I knew

that it would be posted here with the emphasis on the part about homeschooling. Listen up..I homeschool my children. I AM A LIBERAL AGNOSTIC. My children are very bright and are being raised to be good little liberals. They have plenty of friends and are very comfortable in social situations. The anti-homeschooling crowd needs to get up to speed, IMHO. Homeschooling is increasingly popular and not just with the fundies. If done correctly, homeschooling is a wonderful option. My son, who is working at a forth grade level, has already completed 3/4 of math and science for the school year. He will probably finish 2 years of math and science in one year. How can that be a bad thing? He has plenty of friends who attend public schools and guess what? He fits in just fine. My daughter has more political savvy than the average American, can locate Iraq on a map, and could probably win popular culture version of Jeopardy (if there was such a thing). And guess what? She has lots of friends who attend public schools, and she fits in just fine.

As for this tragedy, humans have a dark side, regardless of race, religion, national origin, education, choice of diet, choice of car, etc......

[Hardrada]

79. How about doing both?

I went to PS but also read and read and read, and did stuff with a chemistry set (managed not to blow up the house) and looked at planets with a telescope and built model (powered) planes and taught myself about palaeobiology all at home because my folks encouraged me and as for religion that is why we had CHURCH with a certain amount of piety at home and this all worked. As least as long as the society as a whole was not so dysfunctional.

[medeak]

80. Indeed

believe if you talk to any parent of successful kids...if they went to ps..there was a lot of parental involvement as well.

It has to be a partnership

[Fescue4u]

84. The Columbine killers were public schooled

So I guess both home schoolers and public schoolers are predestined to become killers.

[sniffa]

86. no, just that both have a shot at the american dream

[the_spectator]

90. Yes, but as a parent, which would you rather have happen

if your teenaged kids get all creepy and bitter? Have them go to school and shoot some fellow-students and some teachers, whom they hate? Or stay home and shoot you, whom they hate?

This incident is yet ANOTHER reason NOT to homeschool your kids! Send them to school, so they end up wanting to kill those people, rather than family!

[mzteris]

91. I think you forgot

this!

:sarcasm:


I can never understand those parents who "can't wait for school to start" so as to get the kids out of their hair.

The ones who could "never stand to be around their kids all day."

The ones who complain that their kids "would never listen to me" so how could they teach them anything.

I've always felt sorry for those kids, and their parents, too.

:(

[Fescue4u]

98. Well, OK, but call my old fashioned but

"Send them to school, so they end up wanting to kill those people, rather than family!"

I think our standards of acceptable behavior are getting pretty low

[Catherine Vincent]

92. I'm late but I just laugh at these kinds of threads.

:)

[medeak]

97. ENOUGH!

Ok... there is nothing against home schooling for those that are knowledgable adults and sensitive to meet the emotional, social, and academic needs of children. Those kids lucky enough to have such parents usually have higher IQs and are very successful

Am talking about a few that have encountered. A single Mom with barely a high school education who is following church doctrine. A well meaning Mom with three kids who's husband is a fundamental preacher and doesn't allow her out of house let alone the kids.

[Robert Cooper]

99. And isn't this where tolerance begins?

When we see people doing things we don't agree with, do we intercede, or do we respect their right to make their own decisions, including their own mistakes.

I've yet to see anyone pull out a crystal ball and predict the future for anyone.

On the other hand, if someone is swinging an axe in a menacing way I think intercession is appropriate.

Ask yourself this: do you want them messing around with you, your spouse and your kids? Would you like them to write your house rules for you?

That old rule about treating others the way you'd want to be treated applies every time.

What kind of country would it be if everyone had a say in how each of us raised our kids? The Soviets and Chinese have both practiced it, along with Nazi Germany. In fact, every totalitarian regime has practiced socialized parenting and to what end? To create generations of faithful unquestioning masses to be exploited. Individuality is supressed.

Now look at how Lincoln was raised. Didn't hurt him any. Look at how most of those who founded America were raised. Hardly any were book-learned. Most early colonists were poor and religiously persecuted back home. The French sent the lowest classes for quite some time. The urban poor didn't send their kids to school. They sent them to work. Even to my grandmother's day lots of kids didn't finish elementary school.

And lots of them were devoutly religious.

As for the kids, who better has a right to decide the morality they will learn than the parents who created them? One of the reasons for having children is to pass on our morality, our ethics, our beliefs and rituals to the next generation and hopefully future generations. We spend out whole lives learning more about our world, and when we're ready to do something with it we're fighting for our lives against old age. Our children are our best hope that the lessons learned and mistakes made will somehow benefit humanity through our children.

Each of us is a living experiment in how to be human, an experiment that started with our most ancient ancestor and continues through our descendants. Each of us, the living, the ancestors and the descendants adds something to the experiment and benefits from the lessons. I'm opposed to interfering with something that awesome.

[The_Mule]

106. Can you please save this...

so that you can copy and paste into any future homeschooling threads?

This is the best post I've read on DU for a while, RC. Your first paragraph is, in my opinion, the essence of being a liberal and of being a caring person.

:toast:
:applause:

[Robert Cooper]

107. I'll go one better ;-)

Feel free to copy it yourself and use it anytime you feel it will be helpful. You may want to add the contents from replies 77 and 81 as well.

And yes, I will save this and use it (along with the other two).

Thanks :-)

[Bridget Burke]

109. Yes, ensure that your kids are not exposed to any "other" ideas.

Homeschooling is fine for some families.

But you show a certain amount of contempt for formal schooling. Many public schooled kids have parents who teach them "morality" & remain involved in their education. You appear to link public school ("socialilzed parenting") with the Soviets, Chinese & Nazis.

I don't have children but do pay attention to the public schools. I'd prefer they NOT teach Creationism or any particular religion. Yes, I think I have a "say" in public education.

[Robert Cooper]

113. Of course he's exposed to "other" ideas...

What is it the TV moguls keep telling us: that it's up to parents to monitor their children and decide what they watch. How is it any different when it comes to ideas?

You say "Homeschooling is fine for some families". Who decides which families? What criterion will be applied? Who will be the thought-police? This election Democrats, the next Republicans, then secularists, then the Fundies?

When it was popular to think of gays as "bad", should all kids in the public system have been taught that? What about further back when people of colour were considered "inferior"? When the majority supported Bush in the polls, would you have liked to see the majority have its way with the public school system and the values it teaches?

In the public school system there is incredible peer pressure. A bunch of kids desperately wanting to fit in and not be alone (gathering together like this is a response to insecurity, a crucial step in the development of the herd mentality). What fads do they pursue: drugs, sex, gangs, vandalism, drinking, petty theft, bully-tactics. And they re-affirm their behaviour by thinking they're "cool" and snickering to themselves about what a doofus the "brain of the class" is and how "uncool" the parents are.

I often wonder whether those who praise the public schools ever attended one, as my experiences in several schools reflect this kind of behaviour amongst the students.

These are some of the "other" ideas that kids are exposed to.

I also recall teachers more concerned with protecting their careers than owning up to decisions that had adverse results.

The primary product of the public school system is herd mentality. Regardless of the subjects studied, the herd mentality is pervasive.

I think most of us who grew up outside those 'herds' learned to recognize the school system for what it is.

I well recall blowing the whistle on a vice principal, humiliating him in front of half the school during a student-student council meeting involving the senior grades. There was supposed to be no staff present, the student council said so at the beginning of the meeting. However, the VP was back stage with a desk, notepad and pen, and I knew it.

So the first question put to the council was mine, and I asked why the VP was backstage.

I received a five minute standing ovation. I'd never been so popular.

What happened? The VP (whose previous career was that of a corrections officer) ensured I was harassed out of every club and eventually out of the school. I failed High School by failing English. What did I do? Went on for the next twenty years as one of Toronto's first tech writers. It took the industry that long to produce university-educated tech writers.

My brother, whose education is comparable to my own, went on to become one of the more influential internet security guys. He consults with your government.

Sorry, but too much of a wake up call to be ignored. Given a choice between coming clean and losing their job, or lying and blaming a child to protect their job, I've little doubt how most teachers and daycare professionals will behave.

It isn't kids who fail to learn a subject, it's teachers who fail to teach it. Unfortunately, the kids will bear the stigma of the teacher's failure for the rest of their lives. With patience and understanding and trust and time most any kid can be taught anything.

But PS doesn't work like that: each teacher is given thirty kids and a limited amount of time to cover all the material in a subject. Each kid gets, on average, 2 minutes of help every hour. In a five hour day that's ten minutes spanning all the subjects.

With HS, a child gets 60 minutes, or 30 minutes or 20 minutes of personalized attention every hour, depending upon the number of kids in the family. And they're taught by someone who is -not- going to give up on them. Someone who doesn't use an artificial deadline to cut off instruction and judge the child a "failure".

Whenever I was allowed to work at my own pace in school, I finished the course in 2/3rd of the time it took the rest of the class. Most of my education came as result of me reading ahead, doing the homework weeks ahead of when it was assigned. I didn't rely on a teacher and I was hardly popular enough to consider my time there a useful lesson in socializing. My lessons in behaviour came from my father and mother.

I've spent more time undoing the damage done by the public school system than I have dealing with my Dad's death when I was ten. I've certainly given more thought to the way we treat kids than most anyone I know.

I've no objection if some want to send their kids to the PS system. Perhaps the experience will be good for them, I'm sure it is for some. But I wouldn't cast stones at those who HS, to me it's the last reliable source of individuality we have left.

[Bridget Burke]

117. OK. You hate Public School.

I didn't have a perfect experience there, either. But I recovered. There is life beyond being "unpopular" in high school. I don't seethe about unpleasant experiences that took place 40 years ago. And there were pleasant ones, as well.

Anyway, my mother could not have homeschooled, since she was widowed with 3 preschoolers. Once we were in school, she went to work. In the summers, my grandmother cared for us. She worked for the school system & got the summer off.

My sister-in-law teaches in a private school. Both her children went to public school. One's gotten her Master's; the other one is considering Grad School.

How long have you been homeschooling? Have you given your children the option of attending public school some day? Quite a few homeschoolers here have done it temporarily because of specific situations--not out of contempt for all public education.

[Robert Cooper]

118. Over-simplification is no better than hyperbole

No disrespect, but you seem to be cherry-picking your data from what I've said. I don't "seethe" either: I learn from my experiences and apply the lessons for the benefit of my son.

As I said in a previous reply, homeschooling for my son started before he was born and it's never stopped. At 3 1/2 he is hardly competent to make choices about where he goes and what he does beyond the places and activities we've determined are safe enough for him.

I'm surprised at the apparent contempt shown parents who decide they know what's best for their own child and follow a path outside that of the regimented majority. That this contempt is so easily expressed provides evidence of that group mind-set I discussed in an earlier reply.

I know of no one who is telling any parent to stop PS and start HS. But it seems to be open season on those who HS, persecution without any knowledge of the facts or else the result of cherry-picking data that roughly matches up with preconceived notions.

That so much lazy thinking results in stereotyping is not really a surprise for those of us who survived the PS system and saw such behaviour first hand. The "you're either with us or against us" attitude is one that starts in the school playground.

Not hard to see why it is so vigourously defended under the guise of what is best for the children.

As for giving children an option about such matters, I'm reminded of an Intelligent Design argument about letting children decide for themselves what to believe. I notice school tests don't offer that kind of option to kids, nor do schools offer an option for kids to spend as much time as they'd like on studies that interest them. Schools do not offer the option of studying under a specific teacher either. In fact, schools spend a good deal of their time denying kids all kinds of options.

I fail to see why I should be expected to permit my child to develop a herd mentality that stereotypes rather than thinks when the schools fail to offer options that encourage individuality and emotional well-being.

I'm not prepared to abdicate my responsibilities to my child. Your mileage may vary.

[mzteris]

130. well done, well said.

:applause:

[Robert Cooper]

111. "...doesn't allow her out of house..."

What you've described is unlawful confinement. I don't think that applies.

Perhaps this might have been a more apt description: He would prefer her not to go out and she chooses to abide by his wishes.

There are times when I'm not crazy about my wife going out, like during the snow months when our gravel roads are more treacherous than during the dry seasons. We don't take our son anywhere during winter for the same reason.

And how about during the summer mosquito season in an area that registers West Nile (as ours does)? Not crazy about smearing a chemical on my son to repel bugs, and he's still too young to leave protective clothing on (like clothing and a hat that incorporates mosquito netting). Am I a monster? Creating a monster?

Since we live in the forest, and my son is very young, he's not allowed to leave our sight, as we have bears, coyotes, coy-dogs, and likely wolves as well as wild dogs (which is why we own a family of nine dogs). If we lived in an area with higher crime we'd have additional reasons.

In a recent thread on Natalee Holloway someone produced a list of six or seven girls of various ages that have gone missing in Louisiana. They're still missing. Yet another reason to be concerned for the safety of kids (and what a world we live in where that is true).

You might not agree with their assessment of the risks, but don't they have a right to safeguard their family in a manner than makes sense to them?

<edit: typo>

[0rganism]

100. socialization, eh? Two words: "Dylan Klebold". Two more? "Eric Harris."

Still need more? OK. "Kip Kinkel." Remember him?

Not enough? Wikipedia has a whole section devoted to school massacres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

I'll bet the people who lost their children and friends to those psychopaths wish they'd been home-schooled instead.

[OzarkDem]

103. I'm considering home schooling

Our local school district refuses to deal with kids with learning disabilities. The only option left is to file a lawsuit or home school my son.

Looks like its going to be the latter, I don't have money or time for the lawsuit.

[The Straight Story]

104. This is relevant how???? How many public schooled kids are problems?

Not sure I am following you here....

[thinkingwoman]

116. Oh look, another homeschool bashing thread

here at DU.

Hello bigots! Do you think it's healthy to constantly bash a group of people and keep your mind this closed?

Yes, the above was inflammatory. I'm tired of the bigotry and the willfull ignorance of homeschool bashers here at DU, and what you have posted is absolutely homeschool bashing.

There are a lot of opinions thrown around as facts about homeschooling that have been debunked time and time again. Educate yourself a little.

If the homeschool bashers posted baseless nonsense about blacks, gays, lesbians, asians, or hispanics the way they do about homeschoolers they would be banned. It's shameful that homeschoolers are expected to put up with discrimination and patiently explain the same facts thread after thread after thread.

So I'll give you a short course:

1. educational quality -- many many homeschoolers go on to college. ALL major universities in American accept homeschoolers. Seriously. There is NO evidence that homeschoolers suffer educationally compared to public and other private school students. There IS evidence that homeschoolers actually do better.

2. socialization -- there is simply NO EVIDENCE that homeschooled students suffer socially. Zero. I've searched for 8 years. There actually are studies that show homeschoolers doing BETTER socially.

3. only fundies homeschool -- wrong on so many levels it's hard to stop laughing long enough to type. A simple google search on the history of the modern homeschooling movement debunks this nicely. The modern homeschooling movement was started by a bunch of hippie liberals about 4 decades ago.

4. homeschooling is new and unproven and untested -- public schooling is less than 250 years old. How did everyone else learn? How were the great discoveries (like gravity, algebra, the solar system, the wheel, plumbing, fire) made without public school? Oh my Goddess it's a good thing public school came along and dragged our sorry asses out of those caves and taught us to make stone tools!!!!! :rofl:

Anybody who wants to cling to these idiotic notions is on par with people who still believe Jesus was a white European guy and that blacks were born to be slaves. Sorry, but that is the truth.

:rant:

[Robert Cooper]

124. Sure you don't want to poke the other eye? ;-)

That's going to leave a mark =8-}

[qanda]

137. BRAVO!!!!

You said it much better than I ever could.

[AZBlue]

139. Bravo!!!!

:applause:


"Hello bigots! Do you think it's healthy to constantly bash a group of people and keep your mind this closed?"

I'm afraid you hit the nail right on the head there! Ouch!

[Politicub]

119. Gasp (clutching the pearls)

Homeschooled kids are perfect - every day and in every way. They are the best spellers and snappiest dressers, too. It's the MSM that is propogating these vicious lies about the girl and her boyfriend being homeschooled.

What do you hope to accomplish? Kids going to public schools and getting an education?! What kind of goal is that? The goal should be to have a cult like environment where one can turn their kid against godless libruls. They need to hear every day, every 15 minutes even, how evil Hillary is, and the story of the passion of the Clenis. How will they get this kind of education in public schools? / sarcasm

:)

:rofl:

[DS1]

123. My Home-Schooled Commando would kick your Public-Schooled

Commando's ass!

[Robert Cooper]

125. Whoa!! That's one butt-ugly commando nt

[DS1]

126. Ugly. It's the new WMD

[Robert Cooper]

127. Just be careful where you aim it...

...it might go off!!

[SharonRB]

131. Here we go again

It's always the home-schooled.

[slackmaster]

136. And Adolf Hitler was kind to dogs

:argh:

[AZBlue]

138. Any stats backing up the claim that it's unhealthy to home school?

Any links or info? Because I work with the education market and know quite a few home school groups. And, I can tell you that based on working with them, I've changed my view of home schooling from a fairly negative opinion to one that's very positive. It's usually not just one kid at home with mom - it's a small group so there is socialization. And, these kids play with other kids in the neighborhood who go to traditional schools and have lots of interaction with many people on a daily basis. They do lots of field trips and other interactive projects. From what I've seen, most of these kids are more outgoing and mature than their counterparts at large public schools.

Let's not just assume that because this kid was maladjusted (to put it mildly) that all home schooled kids are the same. That's absurd. Don't judge what you don't know.

However, if someone does have information on this, I would genuinely like to see it.