The Staggeringly Impossible Results of Ohio's '05 Election - HuffPo

[WillyT]

<snip>

Is this the Election that will finally break the camel's back? With so much going on, few have noticed the extraordinary outcome of last Tuesday's election in Ohio where the crooked state that brung you -- by hook and by crook -- a second term for George W. Bush may have turned in results so staggeringly impossible, that perhaps even the Mainstream Corporate Media (if only in Ohio?!) will have no choice but to look into it.

As usual, the Free Press' heroic Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman are on the case. Their article on what happened on ballot issues 1 through 5 last week is A MUST READ for anybody who still gives the slightest damn about whatever democracy might be left in America.

I'll try to summarize here briefly. There were five initiatives on the ballot last week. Issue 1 was a controversial proposition for $2 billion in new state spending. The Christian Right was opposed (because some of the new funds might go to stem cell research), but otherwise, the Republican Governor Taft's Administration (he recently plead guilty to several counts of corruption) was pushing it hard alongside progressives in the state.

The Columbus Dispatch's pre-election polling, which Fritrakis and Wasserman describe as "uncannily accurate for decades", called the race correctly within 1% of the final result. The margin of error for the poll was +/- 2.5% with a 95% confidence interval. On Issue 1, the Dispatch poll was right on the money. They predicted 53% in favor, the final result was 54% in favor.

But then came Issues 2 through 5...

<snip>

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-friedman/the-staggeringly-impossib_b_10589.html

Plus the MUST READ FreePress Story: http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1559

I have to go to bed, see ya tommorow.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

1. I have to read this tomorrow. Thanks for putting it up!

Night.

[shenmue]

2. Wow

Either 25-40% of voters changed their minds on every issue as they approached the polls, or something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

We need to ditch those Diebold bastards and quick.

[texpatriot2004]

4. Live FREE or Diebold.n.t

[renate]

13. oh, I absolutely LOVE that

"Live free or Diebold"--
It's so 100% true.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[glitch]

21. Vote Free or Diebold is the bumpersticker I want. nt

[Joe Chi Minh]

31. Indeed, die boldly and shamelesly cast.

[stevietheman]

86. Too bad it's pronounced "dee-bold". :) n/t

n/t

[electropop]

27. The people voted to strip Blackwell of his powers.

Blackwell overruled them.

[texpatriot2004]

3. Thanks. It's great. I'll print it later. In the meantime, K & R nm

[Spinzonner]

5. You're obviously ignoring the possibility that

the mathematical theory behind modern statistics has changed.

You know, like Intelligent Design Statistics.

[texpatriot2004]

6. Gee, all those people in Ohio changed their minds at the last

minute on all of the issues related to reforming Ohio...hmm. What a coincidence eh. :sarcasm:

[jsamuel]

7. I would love to see someone dig deep into this election in Ohio.

[Marr]

8. That is proof that the vote is being hacked. Dems need to start

hammering on this publicly, NOW, or they can kiss 2006 good-bye.

This is the time to do it, Dems. People already believe the man is untrustworthy. There won't be nearly the amount of denial that would've been in place a few years ago.

[ngGale]

9. This is not looking good, for democracy...

in America. Whoever, counts the votes...:grr:

[raysr]

10. We've got some

awfully big problems in these United States!

[ThoughtCriminal]

11. Seems like they over-reached

Never buy a landslide - just enough to escape a recount.

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. Don't they always in the end.

[Carolab]

12. Read this and understand that optical scanners are JUST as vulnerable

"Every vote in Ohio 2004 was cast or counted on an electronic device. About 15%---some 800,000 votes---were cast on electronic touchscreen machines with no paper trail. The number was about seven times higher than Bush's official 118,775-vote margin of victory. Nearly all the rest of the votes were cast on punch cards or scantron ballots counted by opti-scan devices---some of them made by Diebold---then tallied at central computer stations in each of Ohio's 88 counties."

For those who think a paper ballot is a panacea--it's the TABULATION, stupid.

[Spurt]

17. Carolab is correct.

That is how it is done.

Dozens of hacks at precinct level, or one hack at the central level?
That is how it is done by just a few people.
Look towards the higher links in the chain. eg Blackwell is in it up to his neck.
Whatever actually happens locally will be arranged from a higher level.

If I was hacking it I'd persuade/buy off the ships captain rather than the entire crew.

[marions ghost]

18. what if

we had independent election monitors who would tally the precinct totals and provide a check on the central tabulations? That doesn't seem very hard to do.

[glitch]

23. It's only hard politically. Cutting through the corruption seems to be the

biggest hurdle. All the solutions are quite practical, but getting corrupt election officials to accept them, well that's another story.

[BadgerKid]

52. Truth in tabulation = Dem. plank? n/t

.

[In Truth We Trust]

71. Thats why we need Paper ballots NOW! AND Hand counts NOW!!!

[Teena]

92. Yes! It is the tabulators that are hackable, people!

I and countless others worked so hard to get the word out about these amendments in Ohio. I still have shinsplints from walking fast to pass out hundreds of eaflets. The response from everyone I met as I did this was positive! It really was a bipartisan effort and a willingness to clean up the corruption because most people believe that the voting machine distributors will use anyone to get what they want - money! The next time around, it might be corrupt Democrats who try to steal elections and Diebold, ESandS, and others will just as happily take their payoffs to fix the elections, as well.

[FighttheFuture]

94. Paper is the only way... anything can be hacked, but machines...

just make it sooo much easier.

Keep in mind that every time you put a process between the intent of the voter and what is registered, there is a danger.

It is that simple.

Voter Intent ---> ?? Processes ?? --> Official Tally

What are all the processes (off the top of my head, not a complete list)?

The medium
human readable, verifiable paper
punch cards (not as readable, and chads, dimples. etc.)
Lever machines (old stuff, hacked a lot in Chicago)
touch screens - WORST!!

Counting
Human count, human monitored -- only really possible with paper. Punch cards are workable, but machines are required.
Machine counting- punch card readers, optical scan.
Electronic w/CPU's -- touch screen. Very unreliable!

Rollup/Tally
Call it in, mail it in, fax it in, whatever, computers will be utilized. This is a very weak area and once it gets to the next level of tabulation, the same BS can start again regardless of what the precinct counted.

That is why the Precinct should issue its counts independently, PUBLICLY, as "Certified" by the election judges and monitors in each precinct while it is rolled up for country and state certification.

As far as human counting, one or two stangers not from that area should also be sent in to monitor, to prevent any chummy collusion. We also need more preceints to help allow people ot vote and to reduce the burden of counting. Spead the work of democracy around!!

Finally, EXIT POLLS, Same day Registration, Out of Precinct Voting are all required. They can have a central DB of if you already voted. That is what is needed electronically, not our actual voting!!



REMEMBER, there is that core 20% of deluded fools and assholes that support these criminals. I am starting to suspect many are working in the election process at the local level!

[oasis]

14. "Anybody in the mainstream media ready to give a damn yet?"

The question of the decade.

[Marr]

15. kick because this really is the biggest story I've read in a long time.

This is the best proof yet that the elections- at least in Ohio- were rigged.

[OneBlueSky]

16. a cautionary tale for those who think the Dems will take back . . .

the House and/or the Senate in 2006 . . . they're STILL controlling the vote tabulations, and they're STILL making the results come out the way they want . . .

and that's exactly what's going to happen in 2006 . . .

just ask Mark Crispin Miller . . .

[Marr]

20. kick

[enough]

19. kick

[DemReadingDU]

22. I had someone tell me that the voters

decided to vote no on the issues. To them, it was that simple! More people turned out to vote no, than the poll indicated would be likely to vote yes.

[Selteri]

59. I know a number of people who were supporting those 4

issues that chose to vote no because the vague wording on the ballot scared them away. But that much of a swing still doesn't fit the explanation.

[Al-CIAda]

24. .

[Angry Girl]

25. ^%$#!$@! NOT AGAIN!!!!! WHEN ARE THE DEMS GOING TO LEARN?

How many times do these bastards have to steal the elections? How many times do our mealy-mouthed political representatives have to LET them?

How many times before the "losing" Dem actually puts up a fight and stands up to this? And I'm not taling that two-faced, polite company rhetoric: "Well, I suspect that the election might have possibly been..." NO! NO! NO!!!!!!

How about, "WE'RE NOT ACCEPTING YOUR FRAUDULENT RESULTS" and "We're going to stand here and protest until some media give us some goddam attention!"

But noooooo, we're whiter than that: We write letters. We write books. We write editorials. We write in snooty newspapers. Who the HELL reads newspapers anymore today? C'mon! The action's happening on TV! ON TV!!!!!! If it's not on TV, NOBODY WILL FIND OUT!

If you haven't read the Republican Nemesis, then you should. Use some bloody psychology for a change! LEARN TO NOT LOSE!
http://www.taxwisdom.org/republican_nemesis.htm

[In Truth We Trust]

73. ABSOLUTELY Sister! Sledgehammer time!!!!!!

[Al-CIAda]

26. .

[electropop]

28. Thanks; forwarded this to Senator Reid and the Wash. Post.

nt

[donkeyotay]

29. I'll go out on a limb here and predict that Blackwell will win election

How insane is it that there's no conflict of interests in running for office and counting your votes?

[roseBudd]

30. OH resident playing Devil's Advocate...

the polls don't take into a count turnout in an off year election.

[iconoclastNYC]

36. You are wrong.

Pollsters have ways of guessing who is a likely voter even in an off-election year. One poll was accurate and all the others were DEAD wrong (off by 30%) this is fishy.

[Nightjock]

37. What do YOU believe Rosebud?

and is this getting ANY attention in your local media?

[roseBudd]

43. I thought RON had no chance of passing for a couple reasons...

First of all I only knew about RON because my email addy has been passed around to every progressive liberal cause and I get all the emails. I knew of no one who knew about RON. I saw only a handful of RON yard signs and there was no blanket canvassing like there was for Kerry. Reliably democratic voters, African Americans didn't know to votefor RON because it was not presented a democratic issue.

The against RON ads were misleading of course, but the clincher was "could cost taxpayers 90 million"

In SW OH you had editorials against RON including a very misleading oped piece by Peter Bronson that said Issue 2 would allow Democrats to vote twice. The against RON tv ads quoted all the N. OH newspapers as being against RON and that RON had ties to out of state liberal groups.

Edited to add turnout in Cincinnati was only 30-40%.

[OhioBlue]

48. Rosebud has a point

plus, the Cuyahoga Dem chair came out against the issues. There were 5 issues on the ballot. They were long and the average voter would not be able to really make up their mind at the polls. The people that voted for the amendments probably already made their minds up before they entered the polling station. The amendments were just too much, too lengthy, not enough voter education and they dealt with amending the constitution. I think the default is to vote not to amend the constitution if you don't understand the amendment. JMO.

[AzDar]

33. Wow! (and kick)

[stop the bleeding]

34. Chirp, chirp and news is picked up by know one except the

crickets-

I guess the MSM will listen when thier 1st amendment rights are voted out by Diebold

[VolcanoJen]

35. OMG.

I need to get out of this state. Unbelievable.

All of us were shaking our heads the next day when we learned that all four of the Reform Ohio Now issues failed so miserably. How in hell did that happen, we wondered?

Diebold. Plain and simple.

[iconoclastNYC]

38. No! Stay and fight.

If all the liberals leave the state we'll never clean up Ohio. My mom voluntered for RON and she's very dispirited but I just have to tell her that nothing worth accomplishing is ever easy.

[Nightjock]

39. I wonder if John kerry knows about this?

[WillyT]

72. I Wonder If John Edwards Knows About This !!!

:shrug::evilgrin::shrug:

:hi:

[In Truth We Trust]

74. I wonder if he knows about 04' yes that is sarcasm dripping

off my keyboard.

[SeanQ]

40. Holy S*^$*@^!!!!!!!

OK, I always believed there was foul play in Ohio in 2004, even if I wasn't convinced it would be enough to make a difference.

More importantly I always, firmly believed that unverifiable, black box voting is a massive HORRIBLE mistake for our democracy.

But this!?!?! How unbelievably frelling blatant can they be!?! How is it this is not all over the mainstream news?!? Oh god, if we don't get this fixed we are DOOMED! :scared: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[helderheid]

41. K & R!!

[helderheid]

42. That is DAMNING as all get out!

[philly_bob]

44. Dumb Ohio 2005 referenda rigging

This sounds pretty convincing.

And really, really dumb for election-riggers, to tip their hand so obviously.

This shows that there's more than one group on the right that knows how to fiddle with election machines.

The smart disciplined national Men-in-Black crew that made sure that vote totals matched Rove's "new value voters" church hypothesis in 2004 -- and the provincial, defensive Ohio Dumb-and-Dumber crew that fixed the 2005 referenda to protect their turf.

The nice thing is that even the dumb Ohio 2005 rigging establishes that Republicans untraceably rig voting machine election totals ... and the walls come tumbling down.

Naive mainstream Democratic reluctance to admit the possibility of stolen elections becomes ever more difficult.

(Cross-posted with edits from Election 2004)

[Beth in VT]

45. I think if you ask Mitofsky he can clear up the confusion.

Something to do with reluctant responders ...

[gasperc]

54. yeah, prop 1 was dead on, but all the rest were off by 20 points

and the GOP supported prop1 but opposed all the rest.

Nope nothing fishy, move on

[pazarus]

46. why aren't they listening?

Somebody has to launch a real investigation, or at least not ignore the GAO one.

[shance]

47. Ohioans must demand another Election, NO RECOUNT, another

election on paper ballots and COUNTED BY CITIZENS preferably independent citizens from out of state.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. Has Truth Is All Posted anything on this anywhere??

Not here of course, but any blogs he may frequent? (I remember not long ago seeing some more stuff from him but can't remember where)

[Rex]

50. Um...only 99% of the votes were counted?

Am I seeing this right? What happen to the other 1% to equal 100%!?!?

Even some of the pre-polling numbers don't add up to 100%. I must be missing something here, someone explain it to me please.

ISSUE 1 ($2 Billion State Bond initiative)
PRE-POLLING: 53% Yes, 27% No, 20% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 54% Yes, 45% No

ISSUE 2 (Allow easier absentee balloting)
PRE-POLLING: 59% Yes, 33% No, 9% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 36% Yes, 63% No

ISSUE 3 (Revise campaign contribution limits)
PRE-POLLING: 61% Yes, 25% No, 14% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 33% Yes, 66% No

ISSUE 4 (Ind. Comm. to draw Congressional Districts)
PRE-POLLING: 31% Yes, 45% No, 25% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 30% Yes, 69% No

ISSUE 5 (Ind. Board instead of Sec. of State to oversee elections)
PRE-POLLING: 41% Yes, 43% No, 16% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 29% Yes, 70% No

[Selteri]

60. I hadn't even noticed that, but you're right, ther's that 1% non vote

when the machines didn't make not voting an option.

[Spiffarino]

78. Most likely just rounding

41.33, 43.4, and 15.27 would all round off to the lower whole number. If you add in the fractions, it comes out to 100%. If you don't, it comes out to 99%.

Best we pay attention and not miss the main point...votes shifted wildly in the opposite direction of pre-election polls.

[nolabels]

84. #2 sounds like a clincher to me

You could figure that they would mess up sooner or later and now later has become sooner :shrug:

[AndyTiedye]

51. Now We Know. They Can Steal a Landslide And Get Away With It.

We might as well congratulate Blackwell now for "winning" the gubernatorial race in Ohio next year. :puke:
and I guess Congressman Kucinich and any other House Dems from Ohio can say good-bye to their seats.:-(

Of course, those machinez are being used in quite a few other states too.

Doesn't look too good for '06 or '08.

What would it take to win the Presidency without Florida or Ohio (or any other Diebold state)?

Now we also know why Bush** cares so little about his tanking poll numbers.

[gasperc]

53. Thom Hartman had Fritkis on, it was pretty jaw dropping

if someone did fuck with the central tabulators, they can't keep that big of a secret for long. there seems to be manipulation in many different regions. Much of this data is posted online. Hopefully these guys can't pull together some money to look at the data precinct by precinct and then get some procecutors to start sqeezing some of the local precinct workers/counters till somebody pops.

[WillyT]

75. Hey gasperc !!! - Was That Recently (Fritkis Appearing On Hartman) ???

Do you remember the date? Would love to listen to the archive... maybe even post it here???

:shrug::hi::shrug:

[nicknameless]

82. Fitrakis was on Hartmann on either Thursday or Friday of last week AND

Mark Crispin Miller was on today (Monday, 11/14)


Fitrakis' interview was especially excellent re: Ohio.
Miller's interview was more general re: voting machines & past elections.

Both: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[gasperc]

97. I heard him on the Sunday re-broadcast so it was sometime

last week, go to air america's site or Thom Hartman. I think he has clips or podcasts

[Junkdrawer]

55. I know. I posted this on election night....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2233718#2235066

Blackwell is shameless. And it looks like the '04 Ohio recount only made him more sure he could get away with this kind of nonsense...

[benburch]

56. BZZZT! We Disrupt This Thread For An Important Announcement!

[WillyT]

76. LOL !!! - Thank You For That !!!

Is that the 'new and improved' GrovelBot ???

:rofl::hi::rofl:

[OnyxCollie]

57. Easy now, easy...

I'm an Ohio voter who voted yes on issues 1-5 and I have to admit, what was presented on the ballot was very confusing, and I knew what I was supposed to be voting for. Add to that every newspaper endorsing a "No" vote, a misleading advertising campaign courtesy of the reich wing, and there you have the recipe for defeat. It wasn't until Monday night that I saw an ad saying, "Who wants to prevent voting reform in Ohio? Bob Taft." I slapped my head when I heard that. All I could think is "Great. Wait until the day before the election to link the worst governor in history to obstructing election reform." They should have done that in the beginning. Instead the repugs framed the issue and made it appear as a "no" vote would be for election reform. I saw the repug ads and first thought it was a RON ad. Imagine my shock, and heartbreak, when I heard "Vote NO on issues 2,3,4 & 5." We're doomed...

After voting on the new Diebold machines, I walked over to the table to return the card. Three elderly woman sat at the table and asked me, "That was easy. Wasn't it?"

"Yeah," I replied. "Now my vote goes straight to Ken Blackwell's office, where he can change it."

They all laughed.

[Selteri]

61. I didn't hear a single ad on any channel in NW Ohio FOR 2-5.

But I did see the blade endorse Ford and Finkbinder at the SAME TIME with an ad placed by ford right over Finkbinder's name in a stick-on.

[flpoljunkie]

64. Now my vote goes straight to Blackwell's office, where he can change it.

They all laughed because it was so f*cking true! Thanks for your post.

[eppur_se_muova]

58. Crosspost: Newspaper ad?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5359724&mesg_id=5359724

[childslibrarian]

62. What? What did you say?

I can't hear you!!!:nuke:

[Jokinomx]

63. Damn... the next thing that they will fix is the Ohio St. vs. Michigan....

game. It is the only way the Buckeyes could win....:-)

Thanks WillyT... for a the post ... I sent it to my Family in Columbus. Two of which understand and voted Democratic ... their Mother... I am sad to say supported bushwacked.

[WillyT]

77. You Are Quite Welcome Jokinomx !!!

Maybe this will show mom the light.

Hope springs eternal dontcha know?

:hi:

[Tiggeroshii]

65. Is Conyers looking into this?

I hope he is. This has troubled me ever since...

[Conker]

66. Wow.Just wow.

I think I have lost all hope for Dems winning seats in 06.Especially since this news is nowhere in the MSM.

[meisje]

67. Those issues were poorly written and advertised

But hey, what do I know, I just live in Central Ohio

[In Truth We Trust]

68. Did you even read the articles?

[Teena]

93. Read, read, read...

when you don't understand something, don't just say - "Hey, I don't get it!" Several websites had the amendments explained in just a few words, so relying on the newspapers or the actual ballots was no excuse whatsoever!

[In Truth We Trust]

69. Paper ballots NOW!!! Hand counts NOW!!! n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Thank God the election workers had flashlights.

[KTinOhio]

79. Oh for Pete's sake...

None of the four RON issues passed in any of Ohio's 88 counties.

Issue 2 broke 40% in eight counties: Athens (49.34), Summit (48.52), Cuyahoga (48.38), Franklin (44.67), Lorain (43.22), Mahoning (40.74), Portage (40.18), and Medina (40.07).

Issue 3 broke 40% in four counties: Lucas (45.97), Athens (45.35), Franklin (42.95), and Cuyahoga (40.88).

Issue 4 broke 40% in four counties: Lucas (43.12), Athens (41.30), Summit (40.83), and Franklin (40.72).

Issue 5 broke 40% in three counties: Lucas (44.60), Athens (41.32), and Franklin (40.61).

I'm not convinced that John Kerry lost in 2004. I am thoroughly convinced that Issues 2-5 failed in 2005. And I spent the last two months volunteering for RON.

[PATRICK]

80. I think it is vital this be discussed

as many are sticking their necks out without the more solid evidence of exit polls of any sort. On another post the reality of what happens in the voting booth to propositions is indeed a cruelly predictable shift away from reasoned and educated decisions during the runup- which is not true of candidate selection unless the ballot is really screwed up.

One could end being thankful the rush to accusations of fraud is being ignored ignored instead of being used to discredit a much different case in 2004 and vindicate the "voters changed their minds meme".

Need a lot more evidence here to really counter our own on the ground people's anecdotal experience that support the results of the vote count.
That would be for a real exit poll. Without the pre-poll, the analysis of the individual precincts and exit polls we are entering a three legged race on one leg.

Some actuivists are frantic to get a critical issue out there, trying to smoke out Kerry or budge the suicidal Dem estasblishment or three monkey media. That doesn't mean surrendering the tools and patience needed to make a good case. Can't afford to cry wolf even once and we don't have to. One could stop at the point at resurrecting the GAO warnings and then check out something really more likely and evident as in Virginia.

And there ARE serious issues about writing electable props that need to be addressed and should have been which are not an unworthy distraction from the vote fraud question. The polls show the issues were broadly electable but maybe defeated by ignorance at every stage of the actual winning process. Hard work is no substitute for common sense. Look at W.

[PATRICK]

81. I think it is vital this be discussed

as many are sticking their necks out without the more solid evidence of exit polls of any sort. On another post the reality of what happens in the voting booth to propositions is indeed a cruelly predictable shift away from reasoned and educated decisions during the run up- which is not true of candidate selection unless the ballot is really screwed up.

One could end being thankful the rush to accusations of fraud is being ignored ignored instead of being used to discredit a much different case in 2004 and vindicate the "voters changed their minds meme".

Need a lot more evidence here to really counter our own on the ground people's anecdotal experience that support the results of the vote count.
That would be for a real exit poll. Without the pre-poll, the analysis of the individual precincts and exit polls we are entering a three legged race on one leg.

Some activists are frantic to get a critical issue out there, trying to smoke out Kerry or budge the suicidal Dem establishment or three monkey media. That doesn't mean surrendering the tools and patience needed to make a good case. Can't afford to cry wolf even once and we don't have to. One could stop at the point at resurrecting the GAO warnings and then check out something really more likely and evident as in Virginia.

And there ARE serious issues about writing electable props that need to be addressed and should have been which are not an unworthy distraction from the vote fraud question. The polls show the issues were broadly electable but maybe defeated by ignorance at every stage of the actual winning process. Hard work is no substitute for common sense. Look at W.

[VolcanoJen]

83. Explain the polling, then. How did the Dispatch get Issue 1 so right...

... and Issues 4-5 so wrong?

And, I don't know what part of Ohio you live in, but isn't it just a little bit weird that some of the most traditionally Republican counties in the state, Hamilton, for example, are still using punch-ballots? Was e-voting just not necessary in southern Ohio?

I have questions. I haven't made up my mind, but I have my doubts. Serious ones, in light of that Dispatch poll vs. the actual results.

[PATRICK]

90. From what Ohioans and volunteers have been saying

the first one was generally approved which shows a possible tragedy of voter burnout on the opposed issues when facing the fine print in the time pressure of the booth. In principle the voters supported all the propositions. But in the mechanics of balloting and the barrier of distrust facing lengthy complexities it takes very little to have a huge majority- even of those who pride themselves in knowing the issues- follow a pretty predictable pattern.

Someone posted on the real difficulty of polling for a small turnout and the expense of good exit polling, so that, despite a healthy suspicion of untrustworthy machines and Blockwell, the outside evidence is hobbling on one weak leg. Nonetheless the loud reaction went forth- like the other side does all the time- and may ironically benefit form a) the Repukes and MSM not wanting to touch the issue b) increasing public support and suspicion anyway.

But I doubt any of the activists are cynical. Anecdotal comments by Ohio election activists were not the quality of making up breast-beating reasons why the props may have failed and validated the tally shock. My concern is that this could backfire into somehow affirming that rationalization of 2004 vis a vis ALL polls was justified and we are discredited on this one case. Luckily, it is not an issue they would like to bring up to the public at all. So far. AND under cover of what usually happens top props presented as they were on the ballot, there may have been tweaking. But I think there is much less circumstantial proof for that invisible theft possibility than ever- which is why the machines are evil in the first place. And which is why no one wants to throw pie in our face.

The ABC's of practical proposition making unfortunately have to be constantly revisited as with the wearisome lobbying about e-voting dangers. That should not be the case with any professional political party. Anyone trying to fill the gap really has to do ALL the work and cover all the bases.

[Crux of the Biscuit]

91. Delaware County uses punch ballots...

and I sincerely believe that mine was thrown out. First of all, despite a fair amount of research on RON, I went to the polls confused as hell, (and sick with the flu). The RON issues stated many things that sounded good, but there wasn't enough of a solid explanation as to how these reforms were going to be enacted. throw into that mix the scare tactics of the vote-against ad's, for example "The absentee ballot would allow out of state interests to throw the state elections". Crap like that. I don't know what the hell to believe anymore! Except that I believe in my heart that Kenneth Blackwell is a republican SNAKE, and there is no way that he should be allowed to run for Governor of this state as the election administrator! THIS IS AN ILLEGAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST! I recently got into a heated argument about this with a member of his brain-washed, stepford-wifish staff, who adamantly defended her claim that there is NO WAY the voting machines can be tampered with, un-f'ing believable. Plus she looks just like Ann Coulter, (Connie you dumb-ass, you know who you are...) When I went to turn in my punch card I noticed that one of the punches went off the bottom of the card, so I'm sure my ballot ended up in the trash. The exit polls in this state should be covered by the television media. We in Ohio need to get organized and reform our election process NOW!

[stevietheman]

85. Blackwell must be dealt with

If I said here what I'd really like to do to Mr. Blackwell, I would either be banned or reported to authorities--but just take my mood as a sign of the extreme slam against our democracy this man has committed... again. This man must be dealt with in the most extreme manner legally possible.

The numbers alone all but prove the case that Blackwell, the democracy hater, skewed this election. Certainly, the numbers don't lie.

I'm telling ya folks, if we don't organize in such a way as to finally deal with the shenanigans in Ohio, this nation will ultimately pay gravely for it.

It's time to bring Blackwell down.

As much as we progressives find a distaste for it, it's time to get very ugly and do some gutter-fighting. After all, J. Kenneth Blackwell is a guttersnipe.

[realisticphish]

87. this is a start

we pull down blackwell, i think we will then begin to see the underlying corruption, and bring it out into the light

[nolabels]

88. Ohio, Ohio, Ohio, oh where are thou, oh Ohio

Truth is getting stranger than fiction.

It just makes a person wonder how there is a total news black out about this, this Ohio thing :shrug:

20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the USA
http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

[Junkdrawer]

89. Clearly, Blackwell learned the lesson of 2004...

Steal big, steal everywhere and no questions are asked.

[General Paranoia]

95. Good time to boycott Diebold

This gets mentioned here and there on the net but many people have trouble seeing how it could work.

The average person can get rid of their Diebold stock, tell their bank to get a new ATM, post "NO DIEBOLD" stickers and use what direct leverage they have if any. The main result will be that Diebold will pop up in the news - if no where else the business news. If it affects their profits or stock price there is direct feedback and more news. If they complain about it, it's still more news. It gives the average guy something in his neighborhood to take action against now - not in 2006. It also spreads the word and keeps in people's minds what the real problem with Diebold is. We might even get some awareness of the other companies

:mad: :puke: :argh: :kick:

[upi402]

96. recommended!

This blew me away when I heard it, but seeing it is powerful;

ISSUE 2 (Allow easier absentee balloting)
PRE-POLLING: 59% Yes, 33% No, 9% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 36% Yes, 63% No

ISSUE 3 (Revise campaign contribution limits)
PRE-POLLING: 61% Yes, 25% No, 14% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 33% Yes, 66% No

ISSUE 4 (Ind. Comm. to draw Congressional Districts)
PRE-POLLING: 31% Yes, 45% No, 25% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 30% Yes, 69% No

ISSUE 5 (Ind. Board instead of Sec. of State to oversee elections)
PRE-POLLING: 41% Yes, 43% No, 16% Undecided
FINAL RESULT: 29% Yes, 70% No