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Why didn't Diebold steal yesterday's elections?

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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:41 AM
Original message
Why didn't Diebold steal yesterday's elections?
There's quite a few people who believe that Diebold has that power... Then what happened yesterday?
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grrl62 Donating Member (202 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. i want to believe
they are running scared.




one can hope!
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afdip Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. that level of risk is only acceptable @ national levels
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oldtime dfl_er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. that's what I was thinking too
it IS risky so the risk has to be worth it.

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/936290
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
34. Same thought
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. I was thinking the same thing last night. The more often...
they perform their "magic" the more likely they are to screw up and out themselves. This needs to be used very selectively.
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Brundle_Fly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. or if the margin is so great they cannot
alter the count without much suspicion.

I think that is the key reason the repukes keep us all so incredible divided. so much easier to tinker with 48-52 numbers than 60-40's which I figure is closer to the numbers in the vote yesterday.
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. That's my thought, too! n/t
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
86. Bingo--they can only cheat around the margins of error
Beyond that, they are cutting into the profits of pollsters with deep pockets who make their LIVING out of divining the public mood. There would be a massive hue and cry, and investigations.

Cheating only works when the race is close. When there is a blowout, or even a reasonably decisive win, they just can't move the numbers in a way to be plausible/
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morningglory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
104. And they have to work the poll numbers for months so it looks like the 48%
candidate has 51% and the other way around. Voila.
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
71. NOT just nationally...Diebold absolutely stole all of Georgia in 2002!!!
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 02:26 PM by Zinfandel
Georgia had & has 100% electronic voting machines!
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3waygeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #71
97. Only in statewide elections
in yesterday's municipal election, my city (Duluth) used paper ballots.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. Diebold doesn't do the stealing
they make theft possible with a keystroke. Elections officials have to do the stealing.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
65. KB - Exactly - people at state level have to do
the stealing. Ohio STOLE - the polls showed 68% in Favor of Issue 2 and the results showed 60+% opposed.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
83. Bev Harris says the machines were "patched" about 8 times
I think in the GA 02 election. Any of these patches could have changed the programming of the vote counting procedure in the machine. One guy, Rob Behler has attested to his role in one or two of the patches.

The stealing could have been done in many different ways.
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
94. Incorrect assumption. Diebold writes the code
that counts the votes. In states like Georgia they have even been the ones to program the ballot styles (2002 for sure, 2004 don't know).

Why didn't they steal these elections? Maybe they wanted to make it look right for this one so they could more easily steal 2006. But more likely is that it's just too hard to program the code to steal state elections because of all the different races they'd have to program to steal.

However, sometimes when they have control of ballot programming and their hands on every part of the election process, like in Georgia in 2002, they can easily steal state races, like the governor and secretary of state, for instance.

My guess is they are set to steal 2006 and we can bank on it unless there is such a phenomenal difference in the votes between the two parties, and particularly in some states and not others, that they won't be able to do it without being obvious. Then again, how could we prove it without voter verified paper ballots and hand counts of those ballots on election night?
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. sucking us in for the next big one n/t
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well, that muscle bound dolt governing California was originally
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 09:45 AM by havocmom
denied a ballot cuz the machine said he had already voted.

And there were those mismarked touch screen ballots in VA but people were alert to the fact that they had to pay attention and they made noise when they voted DEM and the machines registered the votes as for GOP...

Maybe because people are not trusting, paying attention, and screaming foul?

edited for typo
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Waiting for '06 and '08? nt
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. KKKRove is preoccupied? That would be my guess.
:hi: OR, they decided to let these local elections go and save the big guns for the important stuff...2006 and 2008?
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
9. If you notice, everything has shifted.
The Aspens turned, and next thing you know, the media, Diebold, and everything else that was keeping the public in a state of suspended disbelief over Bush's insanity turned on him.

Where the media propped him up, now they attack him.

Where Diebold supported his candidates, now the elections seem to have at least gone the other way (whether or not they are legitimate, I still don't know).

Whoever runs the big show has penciled in a shift in the script, in my opinion.
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hopeisaplace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. what you said IMO
"Whoever runs the big show has penciled in a shift in the script, in my opinion"

sounds possible.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. If you notice, Dems won everywhere, but the Ohio reforms failed badly.
The powers that be will preserve the impression of parity, but reserve the right to thumb the scale?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. That's my take. The thieves seem to be most concerned with foreign policy
Everything else is window dressing...
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Dems won everywhere,
but what did they win? Not much, mostly maintained the status quo. You don't risk getting caught stealing small potatoes when there are large potatoes to be had next year.
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oxbow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
58. exactly. here in virginia we maintained status quo at best
somebody should take a closer look at the Ohio results. It's hard to believe that they all failed!
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existentialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
61. I agree
We still face the same most basic problems about the integrity of the voting process.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
69. "Reform Ohio" measures had over 60% approval in polls.
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 02:49 PM by Marie26
There were 5 issues - Issue 1 was Gov. Taft's proposal, while the others were Democratic reforms. Issues 4 and 5 didn't have majority support; however, all the other issues had over 60% support at the end of October. So it's a little suspicious that all of the Democratic reforms were rejected, especially in a year that Democrats won overwhelemingly. Yet Gov. Taft, who has a 15% percent approval rating, gets his Issue 1 passed. But I guess you can never account for the difference lots of money & lots of commercials can make. Sometimes I think we deserve the government we get. How could people let themselves be fooled by a couple ads? Don't they wonder about who's RUNNING all these ads, and about their motivation?

Here's the poll: Ray C. Bliss Institute (pdf). 1076 Ohio Residents. MoE +/- 3% - Likely Voters.

State Issue One (Third Frontier)
Favor: 61.8%
Oppose: 38.2%

State Issue Two (Absentee Balloting)
Favor: 63.8%
Oppose: 36.2%

State Issue Three (Campaign Contributions)
Favor: 61.2%
Oppose: 38.8%

State Issue Four (Nonpartisan Redistricting)
Favor: 43.5%
Oppose: 56.5%

State Issue Five (Role of Secretary of State)
Favor: 42.5%
Oppose: 57.5%

http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/10/new_reform_ohi...
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
102. And while they don't use many Diebold...
machines for voting, they do use them for tabulating. And who's the head tabulator? J. Kenneth Blackwell. Gee, I don't know what to think...

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
105. I am in OH and I knew RON wouldn't pass based on the opponents ads
Those ads said could cost TAXPAYERS 90 million.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Ohio's Blackwell followed form:
In the election reform proposals, 20%-30% poll vs. actual 3 day reversals - ALL in Blackwell's favor...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Brundle_Fly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
63. easier to do with less scrutiny than the larger elections.
He was tinkering as california was eating all our brains.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. The -person -that -shall -not -be -named
Blew a ton of the credibility against Diebold chicanery with their...less than reasonable response to requests for corroboration, whatnots.

That's my theory. I didn't say that, I was not here. :hide:
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
92. Lord Voldemort?
Just kidding; couldn't resist.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. My impression is that some of the Republican network is crumbling
Local and state Republicans are no longer faithful to the national party. Repubs are turning on Repubs. You have to all be "in it together" to be organized enough to fudge an election.

I'm sure irregularities will turn up, though.
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
13. don't be so sure
yeah, dems won. yeah, some puke proposals got voted down. But, a LOT of bad shit happened, especially in ohio and texas. I mean, whoopdedoo, liberals won in california! That's not a surprise. What's going to have long-term effects are the voting down of issues 2,3,4, and 5 in ohio, that keep it easy to steal elections, or the texas ban on gay marriage. We CANNOT let our guards down at ALL
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Our guard should be up more than every


California won because Republicans were crossing over like crazy,they HATE Arnold more than they could have imagined.

The machines should still be an issue.

The polling place locations are still a big issue.

Senior voter's are still a big issue.

So much more.


You must be savvy enough to realize that your polling place changed and have enough gas to find out that it is 5 blocks away on a street with no parking.

Your walker must be able to take you 5 blocks to the new location.

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whatever4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. "walker must be able to take you 5 blocks to the new location."
God that's insidious. What am I saying, it's all insidious. But still.
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SledDriver Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. It would have been too obvious.
They let the Dems win the small elections this time to avoid suspicion, and make it look like their machines aren't rigged. That and the fact that many existing voting machine haven't been replaced with Diebold machines yet. Here in NJ, where I've been voting on those old 1950's era lever machines for years, they're supposedly getting touch screens next year. Just in time for the '06 elections.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm not so sure they didn't in Texas
I have two choices today...either believe that 75% of my fellow Texans are bigots. Or believe that they Diebolded an election they were probably gonna win anyway just to see if they could jack the numbers up to 75% without rousing the suspicions of the populace.
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. No rigging just a lot of bigots.
Hey don't feel bad, ours passed by that margin in here in MO a year ago also. Missouri isn't solid red either yet we were at 75% hell it might have been 80% on our Gay marriage ban.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
18. Perhaps they tried.
In order to keep the fraud under the radar, it can't be too extreme. So, if the voters are coming out HUGELY against your issues you're screwed. Either their votes will surmont your rigging, or you'll have to turn up your rigging to the point that you hand becomes obvious.

I'm guessing in major elections the limit is around 5%. The limit would be higher in smaller issues, as fewer people pay attention there, or care if there are large swings. See the above posts on the Ohio ballot issues in posts above for an example of the latter.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
82. Only if there are exit polls and paper ballots They rig the process and.
then ask you to prove that they hid evidence. The answer is pitchforks and torches.
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
19. You can only shift things by an at least moderately
believable margin. If enough folks are becoming clear in their opposition to Republican policy, it becomes far too blatant to "adjust" results. Just one possibility.

Olaf
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
20. Small potatoes compared to Presidential elections. n/t
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. Cause Rove has lost his mojo
and he's no longer in control.

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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
22. Normally I don't nominate for greatest
but this one I will.

For all of you who don't seem to get it, I think what the OP was staying is that instead of over blowing conspiracy theories if we get off our asses, contest elections, and run quality campaigns, we won't have to worry about whatever level of voter fraud actually does exist.
Stop making excuses for inaction and fight the fight!!!!!
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Over blowing conspiracy theories??
How is that?
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. If you check the
"Why wasn't the VA election rigged" poll thread I started responding there, it will be a little easier then posting on two threads essentially about the same thing....
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. I have read your opinions....
for the sake of civility, I will just agree to disagree.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
53. That is sane.
What are you doing in this thread? :)
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
95. Do some homework.
Like reading some of the reports and testimony listed as resources here:

http://www.gaforverifiedvoting.org/resources.htm

Or take a look at Verified Voting's resolution and the names and credentials for those who signed it: http://www.verifiedvotingfoundation.org/article.php?id=...
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
24. The glare of publicity might have given them pause.
As long as they know we are watching, they are less likely to pull a stunt like Ohio 2004.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
27. It takes a high level of coordination and a lot of math to know how much
to 'win' by. The coordination means agreements with officials to allow 'little corrections', etc.

Don't forget, it's not just Diebold - it's all the Republican companies (including Chuck Hagel's) who have succeeded in getting us to vote on Repbulican hardware and software with Republican techinicians thrown in. Diebold should be used as a catch word for ALL the Republican machines - whose hardware and software HAVE NEVER BEEN VETTED and SEALED by any government or congressional committee and whose technicians the election officials didn't even know or vet.

We have allowed ourselves to be stolen from - we are suckers.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
70. You make a very good point
We should really stop referring to them as Diebold machines and start referring to them as Republican machines, Republican software, Republican technicians.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. i remember hearing in virg dem vote going to repug. ANYONE?
i cant find anything on it. i want to know. did this dem win by a lot more? is it just close races a repug can steal? did dem votes go to repug?

i dont know that they didnt turmad. lets find out.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
29. Too much heat right now.
They laid off to quell suspicion.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
32. It wasn't close enough to steal? nt
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VaYallaDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. News reported that some of the machines in VA were plugged in wrong.
How do you plug something in wrong???
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
64. Good question. Ought to call their show "Nitwit News." nt
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. Nobody I know of believes Diebold has that power
What I do believe is that Diebold has built in algorithms that can be triggered, given the proper opportunity.
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
37. Could be a variety of reasons.
1) The whole election vote stealing is all in our minds. I think its very likely stealing does occur but maybe we are all crazy.

2) The real big money powers behind the country decided a change is needed(hey the market has been stagnate for 5 years) and have started a shift back left for whatever reason. Perhaps they want democrats in power to be blamed when the housing bubble and other economic issues come to a head to further damage them.

3) The margin that can be stolen/manipulated could not overcome the leads by Democratic candidates. I think the amount can't be more then 3-5% of votes that can be effected without alarms going off.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
38. nj doesn't hardly have any diebold..nj still has the lever machines!!
and i see no damn reason to change that..but they will be changed because of hava...

thats why rush holt has fought to get paper ballots with any new machines...i.e. diebold


yes nj has the tried and true lever machines..so we still have good elections and the retugs could not steal nj!!

fly
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
39. it wasnt an inportant election.. Bu$hitCo-wise
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
40. Virginia had lots of problems yesterday!!


this was from early yesterday!!
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=4089899&ClientT...


November 8, 2005
Voters report problems with voting machines in Roanoke Co.

Election day voting is going on across the Old Dominion, but everything has not gone smoothly in Roanoke County.

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.

Roanoke Co. Registrar Judy Stokes says she doesn't want to say the problem is operator error on the part of the voters, but she points out the touch screens are sensitive. She says anyone who is having difficulty voting should ask one of the poll workers for assistance.

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

The Kaine compaign is reportedly watching the situation in Roanoke County.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
43. You can only steal it if it's close
Otherwise, people notice.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
44. I wonder if....
the statement by the Diebold executive was intended to breed apathy?
I sure hear a lot of people who sound hopeless here.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
45. We voted with paper ballots here in central CA.
I guess it was different in SoCal.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
46. It's only cheating when we lose!
Just like my backyard whiffle ball game when I was a kid. If my team lost, of course it was because the other team cheated. If my team won, everything was on the up-and-up.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. prove to me they didnt try. shouldnt we at least check it out?
this was from early yesterday!!
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=4089899&ClientT ...


November 8, 2005
Voters report problems with voting machines in Roanoke Co.

Election day voting is going on across the Old Dominion, but everything has not gone smoothly in Roanoke County.

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.

Roanoke Co. Registrar Judy Stokes says she doesn't want to say the problem is operator error on the part of the voters, but she points out the touch screens are sensitive. She says anyone who is having difficulty voting should ask one of the poll workers for assistance.

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

The Kaine compaign is reportedly watching the situation in Roanoke County.

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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Well, actually in the society that we live in...
the onus of proof would be upon the person claiming malfeasance. That article doesn't prove fraud by any stretch of the imagination. If there was election fraud, you'd see indictments and convictions. Such as this case in point:

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/12015710.htm

Do you think that people would spend vast amounts of money for over 2 years trying to track down who leaked a name of a CIA operative but would let possible election fraud on a national level go uninvestigated without any kind of substantial evidence? I didn't think so. If there's fraud - there will be indictments. No fraud - no indictments. It's as simple as that.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. can someone look at it? cause if you dont look, you dont find fraud
dont find fraud, you get no indictments. and you dont fix the problem. but can we START with looking at it?

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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
76. Yes, I think people would let fraud go.
The evidence is so vast and overwhelming, and it has now been confirmed by the GAO report (at least, the subset of problems they examined proved to be real). The GAO didn't really look beyond machine fraud to problems such as voter intimidation, misdirection, intentional machine shortages in Dem precincts, and fraudulent cancellation of registrations.

But yes, fraud by various means clearly swung the election in Ohio and apparently elsewhere as well. And yes, the beneficiary of that fraud still runs the apparatus which would normally be in charge of investigating it. He has been able to ignore cries of foul because his media poodles have mostly ignored the topic. For example, they completely refused to report on the landmark GAO report, which may explain why you apparently haven't seen it.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. If the evidence is so overwhelming I expect indictments any day now.
As I've already proven in the above link, if there's evidence of fraud there will be indictments and convictions. So if this GAO report is so overwhelmingly conclusive, then when do the arrests begin?
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. After we flip the Congress, most likely.
Which we will have to do by a wide enough margin to overcome the fraud. You'd better get a good lawyer by then, if you are currently in office. Otherwise, you might want to let your friends in office know that this will be looked into, and losing the next election will be the least of their worries.
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JWS Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
98. Prove to me WE didn't try it.
How can you say that the Virginia race wasn't as stolen as much the Presidential election. If these machines can be used so easily to steal elections with the right people working int he polls, why wouldn't the Dems take advantage. If knowing the right people caN give either side power, why not keep the status quo and rely on your connections? Illegitimate power IMHO, isn't limited to the Republicans. If the Dems can get it just as easily, why wouldn't they try?

We've got so many statelegislatures and state executive offices we can throw out all these machines if that's what the Dems wanted. But they are so vulnerable, what makes anybody think that they wouldn't take at vantage of that fact either? Powe4r is corruptable with anybody who has it...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. it wasnt voting for a repug and it sticking on the dem candidate
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 07:11 PM by seabeyond
that is a clue in to me. i want to know why when pushing for a dem, repug kept popping up. and htis has consistantly happened with machines. hit dem, and repug come up. now if we equally had it where push repug and dem come up, then that would clu me in the machines are just fucked up. but it isnt happening to repugs. it is happening to democrats.

you explain to me

and why would i blame dems for throwing their vote to repug

on edit: i dont care if it is repug or dem stealing. i, an american, want all our votes to count. find a dem stealing throw his ass in jail. but dammit find a repug stealing throw his ass in jail too. and all the repugs, they should be on my side, as i am on their side
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JWS Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. right
i dont care if it is repug or dem stealing. i, an american, want all our votes to count. find a dem stealing throw his ass in jail. but dammit find a repug stealing throw his ass in jail too. and all the repugs, they should be on my side, as i am on their side

Exactly. The fact that ANYbody can steal an election is a good reason for the machines to go. No exceptions. There's still no adequate paper trail in these machines and there have still been too many mechanical errors and such to really refelect the votes that were cast accurately. It is said that in any election, 3% of the electorate isn't counted anyways due to all the errors we had in 2000, technicalities in ballot eceptance, etc...

This is computer software here that any joe shmoe working in a voting booth can tamper with. We shouldn't feel secure about our electorate being counted accurately until they're gone.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
48. For fraud to exist in one election, it must exist in all elections?
I'm not sure I understand why you make that assumption.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. here are a few reasons:
1. depending on where the vote is being held (all voting is "local" and not every place has allowed the same level of repuke corruption), they can only affect a vote nominally. Only if the unaltered vote is within a margin of say 20 to 30%, can they change the outcome. Who's to say that the yesterday's results are legitimate? Uncorrupted, they may well have been even more against the Repukes.

2. Scrutiny is high on vote fraud. Off-year, "minor" elections are the time to lay low.

3. The ruling oligarchy works in mysterious ways. Even they must realize that people are becoming more and more dissatisfied (and therefore potentially less productive).
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Angry Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
51. Hello!!!! Who says they didn't try?
I mean, the vote count might STILL be rigged. Instead of 52-47 (or whatever the counts were), the reality may very well have been 65-34....

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case but I'm not saying it's not either.

Vote Quimby!
URGENT! Timing is critical to save earthquake victims before winter!

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
90. You wont say its the case, but I will
Depsite your unsupported speculation, there is absolutely no way that the recorded vote in Virginia and New Jersey reflected some dramatic understatement of the actual number of votes cast for the Democratic candidate and/or a dramatic overstatement of the votes cast for the repub. The result in Virginia was consistent with polls taken late in the campaign that showed Kaine with 50, Kilgore 45, Potts 3. The actual result was 51+ for Kaine, 46 for Kilgore and only 2 for Potts.

Similarly, Survey USA had Corzine with 50, Forrester with 44, and "other" with 5. Final results: Corzine with 52+, Forrester with a shade under 44, and other with a bit above 4 percent.

Even the polls for the California props weren't far off in most cases; where they were, the recorded votes were higher for the anti-Arnold position than the pre-election polls suggested, further evidence that there wasn't any widespread fraud.

onenote
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Angry Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
106. I'm very pleased to hear that.
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JunkYardDogg Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
52. Only used when Legislators and Pres involved
Yesterday's elections had very little to do with driving the Rethug/Neocon/Religious Extremist Agenda
so it wasn't necessary to do much altering
Even the Calif Initiatives could be considered somewhat expendable
It is much more important to install in office Extremists who
could then propel their agenda by controlling legislation-that is the key
and eliminating checks and balances and controlling the Secretary of State positions in each state
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
55. Short answer: Diebold doesn't steal them.
They make it possible for corrupt state elections officials to steal them. If you don't have corrupt Republican secretaries of state and elections commissioners in place who are willing to take the risk of getting caught, you won't see massive, orchestrated election fraud. That's my theory, anyway.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
56. Diebold DRE machines are not installed nationwide.
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 01:08 PM by mzmolly


The areas in green are "electronic." If one places these machines in strategic locations like large cities in Ohio ???

:shrug: I know that the central tabulators are said to be an issue, but with a paper trail the fudging of numbers is far less likely. And, with a national 2% audit as some like Kerry are pursuing problems should be detected.
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mirrera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
59. We won't know anything without an audit as WINNERS!
Democrats should use this "unimportant" election to do some audits of scanned elections. Go in count every paper ballot compare to machine, period. That is what the paper is for. I believe there may be skimming even when we win. I for one just want to know our votes are counted as intended. Human eyes with witnesses counting our marks is still perceived as the height of integrity. WHY do we settle for less? I would rather have a little cheating or mistakes on a small scale, as opposed to private software and faith-based elections. Even winning doesn't feel as good as it should because we just can not know for sure that the count is accurate.


http://NoBullshiRt.com
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
60. As far as I'm concerned
they did steal our votes for Issues 2, 3, 4, and 5, Reform Ohio. I haven't heard a word from reform Ohio.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Ohio Reforms were stolen --
Reform Ohio Now poll two days before the election showed 68% in FAVOR of issue 2 -- and the 'votes' showed 60+% opposed.

:nuke:
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Yeah that should raise some eyebrows
and should mean an audit immediately, automatically and the result held void until the audit is completed.

That result sounds like a software glitch that simply switched yes and no votes around. Or really conspicuous tampering.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Diebold blamed for screwed-up Ohio election.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
89. Nice catch - Thanks electropop!
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
67. It's not worth it.
Save it for the big office and the house and senate or to get rid of "bad democrats" that are the big threats.

Also could be so people like you can say : "oh look it's all good, we finally won some races so this electronic voting stuff must be all tin-foil hat"

The tin-foilers on the GAO disagree, I might add.
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Beware the Beast Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
72. Didn't you know? Diebold only steals the elections we lose.
:D
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Oh, ba-ZING!
:loveya:
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
74. Dude, you're cruel....

Leave those poor schmucks alone. They have enough trouble as it is.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
78. Here in California, they are really being monitored by
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 02:47 PM by Cleita
various citizens' groups, so I don't think there was a chance this time. Also, I think a law was passed removing the touchscreens that don't have a paper ballot source to verify contested elections.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
80. The machines may have been Officer A
I wouldn't put it past them. Those leaks were in 2003, plenty of time to re-oil in time for November 2004. Now, of course, they've got to lay low, hang out in the typewriter barn until this blows over. That explains yesterday.
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Virginian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
84. Because we don't ALL have Diebold machines in Virginia.
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 03:47 PM by Virginian
Our county does not use Diebold and went very strongly for Kaine.

edited to add how strongly: 3/5 of the votes, 60% went for Kaine.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
85. It may be that are taking a slightly more "realistic" view, ie.
that their best bet is to confine their fraud to minimising their losses in Congress, the Senate, governorships, whatever, rather than the outrageous going for broke that's slowly been catching up with them. (Please note the apostrophes around "realistic").

In the land of the blind... But he's still a king who's shortly going to be deposed, and in the meantime, is not going to get away with much at all on the electoral fraud front, from now on, I think. Let's at least hope they have that much sense.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
87. to embolden election fraud doubters
the politics of grand deception and convenient distraction -- what would KKKarl Rove do?

ex., to quell election fraud discussion ... to help take the wind out of the sails ... so, that someone today would point at yesterday, and go ... see ... "Then what happened yesterday."


wonder if there would have been much uproar and attention today against the GOP, say, for example, if the Gropinator had pulled off 'a miracle'? would the GOP need that kind of heat today?

With Scooter, Frist, Delay, etc. going on ... not the best environment to raise the spectre of fraud again

gotta play your cards right to win ...

perhaps this fish wasn't big enough (risk factor)

perhaps the margins were too wide

the recent release of the GAO report may have been a deterrent


the big one to steal is the White House ... with the Senate ... that's where the big money and power is ... for them, the SCOTUS is worth stealing just the right political offices



I'm sure we'll be seeing this election cited to counter future fraud threads.








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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
88. Professional con artists let their marks win sometimes, otherwise
they can't score the big ones.

Actually I heard a republican soundbite this morning on AAR news who telegraphed the reason: just wait until 2006 when you see our remarkable comeback (paraphrasing).
I am sure they are preparing the required backstory now.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
91. Maybe...it had to do with the Democrats getting more votes.
But, that's just silly me's opinion.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
93. Not worth the risk for a couple governors
When, and I say when, not if, but WHEN they get caught, it will be for something major like senate seats or the presidency, AGAIN.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
96. There's probably a limit to how many votes they can switch in a given
election without making it too obvious.

Do you think that they'd want to risk getting caught just to get a Republican Governor for Virginia?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
101. A lie works only when shrouded in truth.
Still, I wouldn't discount your skepticism. The American people may have just ben "complacent as usual" on 02 November 2004.
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
103. Bush's team stole the election...
in California, Ahhnold didn't want to be seen with the President. No stolen election for you.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
107. Diebold definitely HAS the POWER to steal elections.
And so do the election officials they train and anyone else with sufficient access to their systems.

The same is true of EVERY electronic voting system that doesn't require a TRULY RANDOM partial, physical, manual audit and allow for a complete physical, manual audit.

Anybody who doesn't understand this is simply ignorant about computer systems.

However, one's having the POWER to cheat doesn't necessarily mean that one will always in fact cheat.

If anyone here is still somehow unclear on these simple and indisputable concepts, I'll happily explain further. For the moment, please consider just how ridiculous this line of argument is considering that BOTH sides DEFINITELY enjoy the THEORETICAL ability to steal entire elections with a few simple clicks of a mouse. Arguing that a fair election here or there somehow mitigates this very REAL threat is like arguing that "the United States doesn't need rules against torture because we never practice torture."
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