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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:02 AM
Original message
A Discussion with Mark Crispin Miller
Today we are very excited to host an online discussion with Mark Crispin Miller.

Mark is a professor of media ecology at New York University. Some of you may remember him from our online discussion on Democratic Underground in May of 2002. He is well known for his writings on all aspects of the media and for his activism on behalf of democratic media reform. He has written a number of books, including Boxed in: The Culture of TV, The Bush Dyslexicon: Observations on a National Disorder, and Cruel and Unusual: Bush/Cheney's New World Order. He writes regularly on his blog, News From Underground.

Mark has a brand new book about the 2004 election, Fooled Again: How the Right Stole the 2004 Election, and Why They'll Steal the Next One Too (Unless We Stop Them).



This discussion is going to be pretty informal. Mark has some book signings and other events today, so he might be checking in a few different times throughout the day, and he is not going to be able to answer every question that is posted here. He will pick the questions that he considers most relevant and answer those. All DU members are welcome to participate. If you have a question or topic that you would like to discuss with Mark, just click "Reply" on this message to post it.

This is a great opportunity for the members of Democratic Underground. If necessary we will moderate this thread, and we expect anyone who participates in this discussion to do so respectfully.

Mark, thank you so much for being with us. To start, I will post the first question, which will appear as a response to this message.

David Allen
"Skinner"
DU Administrator
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. The first question is an easy one.
Welcome to DU. Please tell us about your book.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Why I wrote Fooled Again
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:24 AM by Mark_Crispin_Miller
Hi, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here. Many warm thanks, Stephanie, for making this happen.

The scandal of last year's election never resonated as it should have done, because the national Democrats AND "the liberal media" refused to face, or even to discuss, the facts. We very badly need electoral reform, but we won't get it if that mammoth scandal doesn't finally resonate. My aim in writing Fooled Again was to lay out the evidence that Bush & Co. stole their so-called "mandate," so that the scandal might at last resound, so that we'll all be motivated to repair the system. If we don't, it seems to me, we're really cooked.

Let me add that I myself am not a Democrat but a proud independent. This is not a partisan endeavor but a crucial civic issue. There's evidence that many a Republican did NOT vote for Bush/Cheney in 2004. Those folks too were disenfranchised, along with countless voters on the other side.
I await your questions/comments.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
60. I've often thought the lack of a MANDATE is the reason why the admin
has fallen apart so quickly. When Bush commented after the election that "he earned capital" and he was going to use it, it sounded like gallows humor. If he had so much capital, he wouldn't have needed to trumpet it.
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occuserpens Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
157. .
Edited on Sat Nov-05-05 02:55 PM by occuserpens
.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. My question for Miller:Do you think the Sec of State races being the focus
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:45 AM by blm


for Dean and the DNC indicates that they have come up with a plan to get access to the voting machines and the people who program the machines as the best way to expose the malfeasance?

Some of us noticed that Dean was recruiting really smart, savvy candidates, and that Cameron Kerry is running for the position in Massachusetts. My gut tells me this is an essential part of a greater plan to open up the machines to public scrutiny.

Any insight to share?
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Bruce McAuley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hi Mark!
Given what has happened so far with the Bush administratio9n, what do you foresee for the future?
Will the neo-conservatives have a final triumph, or will liberalism make a resurgence?
Or neither of the above?
Best guesses, please, and thanks for participating!

Bruce
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
30. Liberalism
Bruce, liberalism will make a resurgence; or, rather, it is resurgent already, although many liberals out there don't know they're liberals. It's an odd situation. The word itself is now pejorative, thanks to the far-right propaganda drive that's overwhelmed our politics and culture for last few decades. So folks are often quick to say that they're not liberals覧but their politics, on nearly every score, ARE, by any definition, liberal: economically, environmentally, on foreign policy, on healthcare, abortion rights, you name it.

Because the word has been so badly tarnished, I'd prefer to say that our Enlightenment ideals will re-assert themselves. I deem myself a follower of Jefferson and Paine. The world-view of those framers will prevail, if we promote it and defend it just as zealously as BushCo has attacked it.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. We're Progressive. Progressive times call for Progressive values.
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:33 AM by ClassWarrior
Welcome to DU, Professor.

NGU.


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Selteri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
88. Makes sense - Most people I know that are Liberal
think of themselves as being 'moderate' because they are progressive but don't believe in extreme actions as 'Liberals' keep being labeled.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. How susceptible to the "first story out there" is MSM?
I haven't read your work so excuse me if this has been covered.

It appears that the news media in this country all follow the very first wire report written on an event or an issue. Is it really that cut and dry? and does the right really have packaged ready to go versions of what I just saw ready to go (it would appear that they do)?

Jeff
Richmond Va.
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jane_pippin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
40. I'd like to add to this question too, if I may:
If they do follow the first wire report on an event or issue, how does that effect the story the public gets about the issue from both national and local media?
Where do you think this "herd mentality" comes from? Do you think media consolidation has anything to do with it? (Parent company uses the first wire story and before you know it it's trickled down to my local paper/tv station and everyone everywhere is repeating the same line.)

I haven't had the chance to read your books yet so please forgive me too if you've already answered these questions elsewhere.

Thanks for your time.
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Tiggeroshii Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
96. Hi
Your name caught my attention. You don't have any kin with the name of teaching down in Southern California, by chance do you? I have a tacher named John Pippin and wondered if you may be related. I'm guessing porbably not, but just curious. Sorr, probably too personal, don't gotta answer if you don't want. =)
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jane_pippin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. Oh, no worries and no relation. It's not my real name.
I just made it up because it was the first thing that popped into my head when I signed up here. Nice to meet you anyway though. :hi:
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Tiggeroshii Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. Haha! =)
I like that name Pippin... Like the Hobbit... Marian Pippin :-)
:hi:
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
108. The right has the propaganda thing down cold.
The MSM, moreover, will certainly not follow any story that it's disinclined to follow, however hot it may appear. Every day amazing pieces come from the Associated Press, with no follow-up whatsoever. AP did a good story on the GAO report on electronic touchscreen voting machines. There was no follow-up at all.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. What is the first thing we CAN/should do to secure our voting system?
Just want some tangible ideas for Democrats and other concerned citizens.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
35. First steps
The first thing to do is to campaign relentlessly, in every way at hand, to get the scandal of last year's election on the national radar screen. Unless we do that, all our policy suggestions will mean nothing.

As we do that, though, we should also be resisting the proliferation of touch-screen voting machines sold by private vendors覧Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia覧and agitating on behalf of paper ballots, unless and until we learn about a tamper-proof computer-based system (if such is possible). That would be a local matter, by and large. We also should be working very hard to get the Voting Rights Act renewed completely. (The Busheviks want to remove certain provisions from it, so that it can then be junked by the Scalito Court.) And we must support Rep. Jesse Jackson III's call for a constitutional amendment formally confirming every adult American's right to vote, and establishing a uniform federal voting system. We should also enable same-day registration, extend the voting period to, say, a week, advocate for Instant Run-off Voting (IRV), and do whatever else it take to make the system truly democratic.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. Thank you.
The media is going to be a huge hurdle, but your book will be helpful in opening necessary discussion. I hope we can get this on the "national radar screen" as you suggest as that would appear to be key.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. What is your opinion on Oregon's vote by mail system?
Thank you!
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
150. What about scanning machines?
Long story short: I went through a phase of strong belief in fraud, then a phase of serious doubt. I haven't kept up with the "election fraud" news.

Anyway, I just learned that ES&S scanners are used in my rural California county. Our county is one of the few in California that uses machines from these vendors. I believe they were used in the 2004 election. At the time, I heard rumors of many, many problems. Can these companies' scanners also be used to steal an election or create fallacious results?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks, Skinner! I'd like to ask Mark, was there a moment,
or an event, that you can identify as the one that spurred you to write on this topic?

Thanks.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. That moment
was Election Day, and the huge screaming gap between the propaganda ("It's all gone really well!") and what was really happening coast to coast.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
57. Thank you so much for
doing something about it!


I remember back in 2001 when you were to be on c-span to talk about "The bush Dyslexicon"..I can't exactly remember but it seems like it was cancelled because of 9/11.

Anyway we've come along way since only 10% didn't buy into the bush dictatorship but so much more to go. Thanks again, for writing this very important book so we won't get "FOOLED AGAIN"!
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
127. The headline the next day in the Miami Herald said
"NO DOUBT THIS TIME!"

Manipulative piece of crap.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. My Question & Link for Petition for Marc Maron
Praise: Loved the Harpers' article! Thank you!

My Question: Do we have the votes? Are you convinced that all of the fraudulent actions stole the election from Kerry? Do you estimate numbers of votes stolen in your book?


Also, MCM - Stephanie said that you wanted the link for the Petition to keep Marc Maron on Morning Sedition:

Petition to Keep Marc Maron on Morning Sedition

More Contact Information for Danny Goldberg at AAR - A call from Mark Crispin Miller might get Goldberg's attention.




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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
43. Millions of pro-Kerry votes were junked/SAVE MORNING SEDITION!
It's very hard to come up with precise figures. That's the problem. But consider, for example, that the Census Bureau came out in late May with an astounding revelation. According to their survey, 3.4 million more Americans claimed to have cast ballots in 2004 than the official toll of those who voted. So maybe some of them were lying. OK, let's say half were lying. That still leaves some 1.7 million votes that somehow never got recorded.

And that number does not include those (countless) voters who knew very wll that they could not vote, or even register. And neither of those sums include those US citizens abroad who tried and failed to vote. (The last chapter of Fooled Again is all about Bush/Cheney's interference with the expatriate vote, which includes up to 7 million ballots.)

Put it all together, and what does it spell? "IT CAN HAPPEN HERE, AND DID."

And EVERYONE out there, PLEASE contact Air America, and urge the board NOT to allow the cancellation of Marc Maron's show!!!
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wrathofkahn Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
104. Now I'm confused...
"And that number does not include those (countless) voters who knew very well that they could not vote, or even register."

Umm...

If they knew that they could not vote or register (vs. simply choosing not to do so), then I must assume that they were ineligible to vote. How is it that someone who couldn't have voted anyway could have affected the outcome of the election (other than campaigning, etc.)?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. Those who tried to register and/or vote and couldn't.
Not because they were ineligible. They were eligible, and yet could not register or vote.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. What are your suggestions for we the rank and file voters,
to effect the voting reforms that are necessary to assure free and fair elections?
Thank you Mr. Miller.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. Greetings Comrade...
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:10 AM by kentuck
Why do you hate America? :)
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. Mr. Miller, I read "The Bush Dyslexicon" and loved it, BTW.
I wanted to ask you: What is your proposal to deal with companies such as Diebold, ES&S, Triad, and others that "hack the vote"?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
113. All private vendors should be outlawed.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #113
134. I agree
Thanks for coming to DU Professor Miller. Please come back again and talk about "Cruel and Unusual: Bush/Cheney's New World Order." I bet there are students here eager to discuss it. ;)

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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. How do yot think the Right stold the election in 2004?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I second this question
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
52. I was going to ask this as well.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
110. The book fully answers that question.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. can you please speak to the importance of EXIT POLLS in our case
for ELECTION FRAUD. what's the appropriate weight to give exit poll discrepancies in the on-going debate?

and (follow-up)

Do you have a response to EXIT POLL DISCREPANCY deniers; those who claim we either don't have all the information yet, or that we don't understand the numbers.

Thank you -- and I just have to say... everyone we've loaned your Patriot Act video to has compared you to the late Spaulding Gray. We look forward to more monologues.

Brook in Nashville.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. I'd like to reinforce this question
what's the appropriate weight to give exit poll discrepancies in the on-going debate?

A friend from Canada who felt he had more exit poll data than the US did called all of his friends here on election day to tell us Kerry was going to win. I believe I also saw a graph here showing that the exit poll/final result discrepancies were all in states with electronic voting machines. It seemed to me this was a crucial bit of data that the election had been stolen. Was it also crucial to your analysis?

Thanks for participating.

Alice
Oakland, CA
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
44. here's one graph that might help
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:59 AM by nashville_brook


(dang -- i'm having trouble getting it to view large)
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. Thanks
That might be the one I was thinking of. :applause:
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. Excellent question. The discrepancy is truly disturbing.
If there hav been such a last second flip in a Venuselan Election and Hugo Chaves had won, you know the US would be crying foul.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
114. The exit poll/"official" count discrepancies are certainly significant
although the issue is extremely complicated. Let me recommend the writings of Steve Freeman at the University of Pennsylvania. He has a book, co-written with Joel Bleifuss, coming out from Seven Stories in a month or so. A must-read. Steve is expert on the subject of those polls. He's debated Warren Mitofsky, who came off the worse for it.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. lets see if we can get Steve Freeman to chat when his book comes out!
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. My question to Mark:
Numerous states have enacted "paper trail" laws. Will such laws be sufficient to protect our votes? If not, what other actions do you suggest should be taken?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
116. Paper trails per se are not enough.
Certainly it's better to have paper trails than none, but the mere existence of such disparate slips of paper is no panacea. I think that thre should be a paper BALLOT, so that the ballots can be stored indefinitely and counted or recounted as required. The TruVote machine looks like a very good idea. (That's the company whose CEO was evidently Silkwooded last year.)
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. Many Threads Into an Unmistakable Case
I'm sorry that I can't stay long, but I wanted to at least give a high recommendation to "Fooled Again." As with all of Mark's books, it is exhaustively researched, insightful, and has teeth. Mark does cite a couple of my studies including the "Unofficial Audit of the NC Election" that initially appeared here at DU. I'm deeply honored to be included, but it makes it even better for I have read and respected Mark for years. To paraphrase Van Morrison (the way I like to hear it), "If you pull your punches, you don't push the river." Mark pushes the river.

"Cruel and Unusual" is the benchmark for me in getting at who these people are and what partially concealed agenda they seek. It's an important book. Likewise, "Fooled Again" pulls together the many-pronged RNC attack on the election process and exposes it in a way that is hard to marginalize. That is critically important because the culprits utilize marginalization of facts to elude media focus and cover their trail. They'll say... "but there were reported electronic discrepancies that favored Kerry too. See, it all amounts to much ado about a few electronic glitches." But, in fact, if you look at the EIRS data, the electronic vote switching favors Bush by a ridiculously large percentage. It is also interesting to see how often these reports are centered in minority districts. To have someone of Mark Cripsin Miller's credentials to not be fooled by the marginalizations and not carry the comfortable disdain for populism that seems embedded in most of the national media is necessary and validating if the story of what happened in the 2004 election is to reach out and enable reform in the future.


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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. Absentees and aborting votes
I've read the accounts of the missing absentee ballots in Florida (which you also nicely document) and have likewise noted in several states the unlawful collection of absentee ballots by mysterious persons and groups. In Georgia, we've just had the Republican legislature attempt to restrict minority voting by creating a voter ID requirement where no documented fraud has occurred. Interestingly, however, the voter ID restrictions would not apply to absentee ballots. To me, that's a tip that one method of rigging is to either create phantom absentee voters or revote for "captured" absentee ballots. Something very fishy is going on with absentees. I noted this particularly in Nevada where they have verified voting. Absentee fraud could be a way to circumvent all other measures of safeguarding the vote. Did you get a sense of rank in the types and methods of vote fraud -- electronic, vote switching DRE's, absentee, various types of disenfranchisement, etc.?

And finally, at the old Kerry-Edwards forum on election day, one of the regulars posted an odd firsthand account that I have not seen since. While on the phone to Blackwell's Secretary of State headquarters, she was put on hold and could hear a phone bank of numerous people in the SoS's office making phone calls to voters stating that they were calling from Planned Parenthood and asking that they vote for John Kerry in order to keep abortion legal. My take was that they were calling identified Catholic voters in order to anger them to the polls to vote for Bush. That sort of illegal and underhanded tactic is Rovian by nature (or Mehlman-esque as the case may be) and I would guess prosecution worthy. The old Kerry-Edwards forum is long gone, and I have no way of researching it further. Have you heard of similar Ohio accounts, or is that state so awash in corruption that it almost gets lost in the mix?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
117. I salute you, ignatzmouse.
A thousand thanks for your kind words. I think your work is indispensable, and was delighted to be able to include it in my book, which seems all the stronger for your research.

I had not heard anything about that phone bank. If you find it, could you send it to me? (You still have my email address, right?)
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ignatzmouse Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #117
125. Blackwell and beyond
If I can root out the report of Blackwell's phone bank, I will definitely send it to you.

Thank you again for participating in the Q & A. It's a steep hill to climb to confront the complacency, forgetfulness, and arrogance on this issue that await every step. It is deeply appreciated by those involved in examination of 2004 and reform for the future. Your comments today were pointed, greatly informative, and illuminating. Thank you.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you for coming online with us! Do you think that the states
will actually entertain the idea of replacing the voting machines that they just purchased to be in compliance with HAVA? Can those machines be retrofitted with a "proof of vote" certificate and would that keep our elections from being stolen? How likely do you believe it is that states will actually go to a voter verified paper ballot (which is what I'd like to see)?

Thank you,
Carol
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
90. good question! I live in Nevada and we are so screwed by the Sequoias
that were put into place ...Reid doesn't even understand what is happening ...
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
118. The states will do what their residents demand they do.
if the demand is long and loud enough. HAVA, furthermore, should be repealed ASAP.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. I haven't read the book -- yet -- but from what I understand...
you rely fairly heavily on anecdotal evidence, which -- while certain to stir the proper response -- doesn't carry much weight in scientific or (more importantly) legal analysis.

I ran into the same problem while looking into the 2000 election here in Florida -- plenty of people willing to talk, but little direct evidence of willful manipulation.

My question is, do you believe that, if given to a prosecutor with subpoena power, real evidence not relying on circumstance or anecdote could be found, such that either this administration and/or the leaders of the Republican Party could be held criminally liable? If so, what would it mean for both parties in the long term (the short term conclusions being fairly obvious)?

In other words, if taken into the ostensibly objective realm of the courtroom, could this dog hunt?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
120. I have far more than anecdotal evidence,
which, as you note, works better in a narrative composed for broad consumption than it would in court. If you'd like a good example of non-anecdotal evidence, please let me recommend the section of the book that deals with Sproul and Associates. There is solid evidence of fraud committed by the GOP預nd also evidence of a bald effort by the party to conceal all trace of that wrongdoing.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. Why doesn't George Bush just come right out and say it? --->

He thinks he is King of America.





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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
19. My question
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:22 AM by EstimatedProphet
We have what looks to be a proportion of the US populace which has (what we call on DU) "drunk the kool-aid"; i.e., will support Bush and the Republicans regardless of what they do, even if they broke into their houses and kidnapped their children.
How do we go about unfooling these people? Can we unfool them?
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
20. Hi and wecome to DU !My first question is...
Can we really get some verification, (i.e. a paper trail), for this electronic voting fiasco?

So far, it seems to me that the push for this is far too disorganized, and it is a relatively easy thing for the companies that make these machines to add a device that ensures counting is verifiable.

What the heck is the hold-up?
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. Mornin', Professor
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:32 AM by Buns_of_Fire
No question, just wanted to welcome you. :hi: Now I'll just sit back with some popcorn and enjoy the pithy remarks aimed at & Co. that are sure to follow... :popcorn:
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
23. A few more questions. But first, thanks kindly for all you do.
I would like to know your impressions of how your piece has been received, both among other journalists and among the general public. Any feel for the impact on sales of Harper's at the newsstand, LTTEs or hits on Harper's and your web-sites. (I'm trying to gauge the legs of this story.)

What evidence from other states besides Ohio (or the behavior of the Rethugs in Congress and elsewhere) during and after the election confirms your suspicions that the election was stolen.

What are your reactions to the recent piece o' shit article in Mother Jones or the older piece o' shit article in TomPaine which dismissed the election fraud evidence.

Why do you believe there is still such resistance (even among progressives) to acknowledging that our elections are being stolen these days?

Any responses to any of these questions would be appreciated. Thanks again from Tennessee.
We're not a red state or a blue state -- we're an Orange State.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. I second this question:
It seems that centrist/professional party Democrats resist this issue as if it were the plague. As a risen-from-poverty bootstraps-Democrat, this attitude is very troubling because it's the economically-challenged Dems who were immediately disenfranchised and it feels like we are being told by our own party that we don't matter.

Brook in (purple) Nashville
:)
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
50. My answers
That issue of Harper's broke a lot of records for newsstand sales. It sold more than any prior issue since the one that published Norman Mailer's Prisoner of Sex in 1972, and may well have outsold that one too. (We don't know yet.) In any case, the response was exhilarating.

The evidence of nationwide vote theft is vast. It's in the book. (In large part, it IS the book.)

I was disappointed in Mark Hertsgaard's piece覧especially as he's a friend of mine, and generally a very good reporter. He really blew it there. For one thing, my book is not based largely on the Conyers Report: a characterization that implies that my focus is Ohio. In fact, I devote only ten pages to the Conyers Report, and another five to scandals in Ohio NOT discussed by Conyers et al. The book is nearly 300 pages long, with copious evidence from many states. And more generally, Mark's piece badly distorted not just my book but the Conyers Report (WHAT WENT WRONG IN OHIO?) and the excellent compilation of documents put together by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman (DID GEORGE W. BUSH STEAL THE ELECTION IN 2004?).
The evidence speaks for itself. I wish that Mark had worked a little harder on that piece.

The resistance is based partly on corruption, in some cases, and careerism, and very largely on denial. The implications of the theft last year are very grave. Better to deny them categorically.

The whole red state/blue state dichotomy is pure crapola.

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The_Mule Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
74. "The whole red state/blue state dichotomy is pure crapola"...
Mr. Miller, I'm glad someone is finally saying that. This phrase needs to be shoved into every media outlet.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
24. My question is in regards to voter suppression.
How can we fight voter suppression in US? The recent Housing Bill has provisions that would cut funds for non-profit organizations that build housing for low-income individuals if they engage in voter registration. In my opinion this is an attempt to suppress the vote of low-income and minorities in the United States. What can we do to fight back against this type of underhanded dealing?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. re: 16 words in 03 SOTU - Will they cost */neoCONs any political capital?
or will pointing to the UK, as the source, be enough to get past our own intel's objections to the 'saddam sought uranium from africa' line/lie?

also, what do we (the public/media) know about the UK source?

and last but not least...

would you agree that it is fair to say, 'the neoCONs put every american, man, woman and child at risk' by exposing part of our clandestine WMD operations?

thanks for all your excellent work and participation :toast:

:hi:

peace
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
26. Uhm, is he here yet?
:crazy: I bet that's everyone's question now? :shrug: ;)
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
27. What do you think of the quest for so-called "objectivity" in reporting?
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 11:31 AM by patcox2
The media assumes there's two sides to every story, even when there isn't,e.g., I.D. vs. evolution, Bush's Social Security proposal is privatization vs. the truth. How much has this ennabled Bush?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
65. No. Not every story. Only stories that redound to the Democrats'
credit.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. One Raving Loon vs. the entire community of credentialed experts.
And the media will present it as a real, genuine, hotly debated controversy.

Its ridiculous.

The republicans use thsi idiocy on the part of the media to great advantage.

I think the media does bend over backwards to avoid being perceived as "liberal." Ironically, they aren't, and to double the irony, despite bending over backwards, they are still perceived as being liberal anyway.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
29. Have you done any investigations into 9/11?
As you probably know there is a September 11th forum
on DU with a lot of info, queries, theories on what
really went down on 9/11.

Are you interested in that subject and will you
write about it?
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
32. Would you agree that making the truth known about Both Stolen Elections...
...is the only way The American People can be redeemed in the eyes of the world after the serial atrocities committed in their name by this illegitimate, criminal regime?

--
www.january6th.org
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
33. Hi, thanks for chatting with us
Why do you think the national Democratic party has been so reticent to discuss and investigate election fraud? The 2000 election was stolen and they let it happen again. I do not know if you discussed this in your book since I haven't read it yet.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. Hello Mark! It's great that you're here! How do we get through mainstream
media's blockade on reporting the truth about the stolen elections? Our efforts here at the end of the 2004 election were monumental and yet the only one really reporting the possibility of the election being stolen was Keith Olbermann.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
39. Mr. Miller, thank you - I was in Franklin County Ohio as an Election
Protection volunteer last year, and directly witnessed many disingenuous and downright deliberate violations of HAVA and elections laws, which lead directly to the disenfranchisement of voters. I also was part of the recount team for Fairfield County, where I witnessed personally blatant violations of the Ohio recount laws under the direct guidance of the Secretary of State.

Do you think the Reform Ohio Initiatives are a good first step? Do you have any sense on the outcome and what it would mean if Issues 2,3,4,and 5 pass/fail? Will they have any teeth at all in establishing verified paper ballots or even fair voting in general?

FWIW, I will be voting on a Diebold touch machine next Tuesday for the first time in my life, and am NOT happy about that. I am frustrated that Governor Taft's personal aide, who was indicted and convicted of Ethics Violations, leads the campaign against the Reform Ohio Initiatives.

Do you also have a sense of what kind of change of heart it would take to overhaul our voting system, and which state you think may be targeted next?

Whew,

Thanks for ANY answers you may give to my post, and for all your hard work.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
41. Where do you stand on trying to get the Canadian "Paper Ballots...
hand counted in front of scrutineers" system implemented here for national offices?

Followup:

As there may be Constitutional issues forcing an election method on the States, can we start the ball rolling by demanding such a system for the Democratic primaries?
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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
42. When Will We Know?
I would ask Mr. Miller for his honest opinion of when, or if, the final proof of the thievery of these elections will become known. Books like Miller's can and will be ridiculed and rationalized by supporters of this evil administration from now until doomsday - literally, if left unfettered. This is particularly true so long as a large portion of the media is in on the deal. Namely, that their employers have determined that their 'self interest' is tied to a continuation of Republican rule, and rules.

My own opinion is that it will take an outpouring of admissions of guilt - primarily through well-marketing books and other money-making schemes - from the insiders and participants. This can only happen if the 'hush money' starts to run out or when the Patrick Fitzgerald's of the Justice System get the goods on a few of them. Just enough to build genuine fear - not the kind bushco routinely uses to keep us in line - but fear of going to jail, ruination of reputation and, of course, not enough money to keep them in the style they see the 'others' living.

It'll come before the end of this term - and prayerfully perhaps right after the rest of the Fitzgerald Indictments - but it will come as surely as George Bush's middle initial will forever forward stand for "Worst"
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meatloaf Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
45. My two cents and the associated question...
It seems to me that the Main Stream Media(MSM) is either willingly or unconsciously doing the bidding of the conservative agenda. It is no secret that the vast majority of media outlets in this country are now owned by conglomerates with conservative ties and agendas of their own. It seems to be the only rational explanation for every bizarre story about Clinton getting tons of air time, while anything negative about Bush or the conservatives is pushed aside for the latest on the girl from Aruba, or a shark attack, or some other bit of hyperbole.

For those of us paying attention, as many here on DU obviously do, the knowledge about the theft of the last two elections is in fact old news. The popular meme is "get over it". This leads me, finally, to my question...

In this climate of conservative dominated/owned media, how do we get the truth out there and once it is out there, how do we keep it front and center until the people finally take notice and demand something be done?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. On "getting over it" and political elections
No one asked me (meatloaf) but my two cents would be that Elections are necessarily political (even when "nonpartisan"), and our winner take all system of elections (which might be better called "guaranteed disfranchisement of up to 49.9% of voters") means that there will always be a winner and always be a loser.

The winner doesn't question victory. The loser is subject to sour grapes attacks, but is the only party with a chance to raise the issue. "Outsiders" like foreigners who might possibly be more objective have "no business butting in" or if American citizens have no right to an opinion, having not voted. So, the mere act of voting makes us all arguably "partisans" not entitled to be listened to at all.

Solution is to work toward FUTURE elections, where we don't know who the incumbent is and who the challenger is, etc., and the rules are more likely to be fair.

Problem is, election laws are set only by the WINNERS of elections, they're called senators and representatives. They tend to think all is fine, or else are afraid of sour grapes attacks. Books like Mark Crispin Millers and Andrew Gumbel's new one and Tracy Campbell's new one called Deliver the Vote show quite clearly that Election fraud is an american tradition, including but not limited to George Washington himself.

You might say that with so much at stake in a guaranteed disfranchisement system, the incentives to cheat are extremely high since that one single vote that puts one over the top is worth everything....

But to give my answer to your question, the focus has to be on PUBLIC CONTROL of elections, the public's ability to oversee and observe all aspects (by all parties/persons) in order to insure it's integrity through policing. This public control is the sine qua non of real democracy, not elections (dictators have elections too, often). Put everything so far out on the open that it's very hard to game the system, and make it decentralized, with no focus points that can throw elections easily.

Unfortunately, using corporate trade secret hard drives to count votes in secret is about the worst POSSIBLE election system one can imagine under the above standards. Invisible to public, secret, one stop shopping for fraud. Even if it were clean, there's no reason to trust secret vote counts.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
48. Hi Mark! Thanks for chatting with us...
The GAO report on miselection 04 came out last week to virtual silence from the main stream media, but BushCo is (finally) getting a more critical look from them, thanks to Mr. Fitzgerald. Isn't this the perfect time to push this issue, with this corrupt regime already vulnerable? How can we get this issue more attention from the MSM?

Are you going to be on The Daily Show, or do you have any MSM interviews scheduled? What I would really enjoy is to see you on Washington Journal!

Loved the Dyslexicon, and Cruel and Unusual. I'm looking forward to reading your new one!

Anything you can do to help us save Marc Maron is REALLY appreciated!
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. These questions are terrific
I wish I had the time to answer all of them in detail!

The GAO report is an important document. The press's silence on it is appalling, and, I'm afraid, revealing.

The Daily Show said they would have me on if a relevant "big story" should break sometime soon. I'm not sure what that means. The GAO report is such a story, except that, as you noticed, it was not a story. So what would such a story be, I wonder? Anyway, I'd love to be invited on. (Feel free to pester them on my behalf!) I think the MSM will be a tough sell for this book, although not as tough as it was a few months ago. The Florida Sun-Sentinel gave me a pretty good review, and I got good reviews as well in Publishers Weekly and Kirkus Reviews. The peoples at Basic Books are working overtime to get the word out, so we'll see.

I gotta run right now, but will drop back in an hour or so.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I'll be sure to pester them!!
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I'll pester 'em too
Got contact info anybody?
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ROH Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. Maybe contact Keith Olbermann too? (n/t)
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 12:36 PM by ROH
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
82. Contact Info for The Daily Show:
All I could find was a feedback page on the Comedy Central website. Here's the link to that page: http://www.comedycentral.com/help/questionsCC.jhtml

I've already sent my message, now everyone here do the same! Also contact Keith Olbermann...he's another of the good guys.

C'mon Du'ers...let's get the message out - and get Mark Crispin Miller on!!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. I wrote and asked for a direct addy but, done. n/t
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #82
107. Done!
I included the link to the Rock River Times' article.

I really hope they do this... we need people to wake up already. TDS has huge numbers and this might finally be enough to get people to listen.
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #82
124. Done! Great book by the way Mark!
The fact that the MSM ignored the odd election was all the proof I personally needed to know the election was stolen. Your book is the first real detailed look at everything that went on. Thanks.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. We could start by sending them (and many others) this.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #56
71. There is a Big Story: If government acts as if it's not accountable
maybe it's because IT ISN'T!

This is the over arching "story" of the BuSh misAdministration.

EX: Libby can plead "not guilty" and Cheney can refuse to take the stand. What are we going to do, vote them out? :eyes:

Let's start pestering, DU! But, in a nice way, lol!

Anyone have an email addy for TDS?

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
51. MARK WILL BE BACK LATER TODAY
He is doing book-tour interviews today so he will pop in and out this afternoon to continue the discussion.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Thanks, Stephanie.
And thanks for setting this up. This is really great. Hopefully he can find some time to stop by again later today.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. Thanks! This is great!
:)
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
67. Thanks Stephanie!
:hi:
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
54. Is this problem isolated to a few States?
Or is it occuring in many of the States?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #54
92. Many states
Of course it was extensive in Ohio, and the book includes a detailed section on the theft in Florida. But the evidence suggests that there was also significant chicanery in Pennsylvania, Oregon, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Michigan, New Jersey, New Hampshire, West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota and Montana, as well as other states, and aside from BushCo's intereference with the US vote abroad.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Thank you.
Now I know I have to go out & get the book.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
58. Professor Miller-- from an NYU TA writing down the street from you...
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 12:18 PM by readmoreoften
Professor Miller,


There are SO MANY wildly outrageous events occuring simultaneously-- the death of our democracy through stolen elections, the prospect of never-ending war, an unprotected and abused labor force (yes, I will be striking next week), the normalization of torture and rape, the loss of civil liberties, the suspicion surrounding the Bush Adminstration's culpability in 9-11-- why is the public so RESOUNDINGLY SILENT? I believe this resounding silence would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

I went to the World Can't Wait rally at Union Square yesterday and I was perplexed at that so few New Yorkers were willing to take to the streets to protest this regime. As undergrads in the late 80s/early 90s, we occupied the administration building because of a slight increase in tuition for low-income students. At this point, I swear I can't imagine undergraduates taking action to stop a college administration from forcing low income students to sell their organs to pay for tuition.

It seems to be more than just a chilling effect. We are living in a media bubble-- a bubble of disinformation. As a people under undemocratic rule, who currently have no ability to manage or confront our mediated environment... how can we cut through the apathy? how do we debrief our fellow Americans? how do we address the fact that even those who are critical of the Bush administration will not confront the gravity of the situation?

Do you have any ideas on how to burst the media bubble?

Can you share with us any particular strategies you have used to cut through normally thoughtful people's overwhelming desire to pull the covers over heads and go back to bed?


And thank you for signing the faculty democracy statement in support of TA's freedom to strike!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. this is a great question:
i was a student activist in the 80s in upper east tennessee which was an early entrant into the world of conservative activism. at national gatherings i'd tell my story and us the term "conservative activism" and fellow activists from other states thought that was the funniest thing they had ever heard of.

but let me tell what worked for us -- cultural affiliations. work with bands, artists, business-folk and everyone you can get your hands on to multiply your sphere of influence. make the progressive-liberal crowd THE IN-CROWD. the affiliations work best when they are woven into the fabric of life. most people don't need or want to write/read position papers -- they want to party.

this might sound flippant, but it's not -- it goes a long way to overturning old forms of AUTHORITY and creating new ones.

just my 2 cents -- this question was so close to my experience i had to chime in.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. There were tons of hip NYC bands in support of the WCW rally...
Still, people didn't come out in the numbers that they should have. The largest majority of people there were HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS and I was glad to see them.

But there is an incredible chill on college campuses these days. I worry because if young people don't see a nation in arms after a stolen election, in a decade I fear we will have a generation who doesn't see much value in participatory democracy.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #58
94. It isn't necessarily apathy.
Discontent is more widespread than we are generally led to think. BushCo's popularity among the military, for example, and among military families, is not at all impressive; and he has lost a lot of ground even among his own erstwhile constituents. His current "STRONG approval" rating is now around 22%, with a four-point margin of error, which means that it could be as low as 18%覧the same percentage of Americans who did not disapprove of how Bush/Cheney and their Congress tried to meddle in the Terri Schiavo case.

We tend to think of many of our fellow-citizens as apathetic because, let's face it, we too live inside "the media bubble," which represents us to ourselves (and to the whole wide world) as far less discontented than we really are.

Now, it is surely true that people should be more than discontented. They should be actively protesting and resisting. (Although there too the media tunes out what protest and resistance HAS welled up.) On the other hand, the system has radically depoliticized us, training us to watch and, if we can afford it, shop, and little else. We've therefore long since lost our civic virtue, and the necessary habit of saying NO when things become oppressive.

Just remember that the situation is a lot more fluid, and potentially explosive, than it appears to be on CNN and in the New York Times. The elites have fallen out with one another覧a clash that now provides us with a most important opportunity to say things that have been verboten for too long. The iron is hot. It's therefore crucial that we not despair, or paralyze ourselves with undue worries vis-a-vis the seeming or alleged indifference of "the masses."
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. The problem is the corporate stranglehold on television.
Before the Iraq invasion there were massive worldwide protests that the news media basically ignored. (The NYTimes front page story after 500,000 protesters marched through Manhattan was on preschoolers on an egg hunt) T.V. news forget it.... Can you imagine if they were covering MLK in the sixties? We'd will have segregation and nobody would have heard of Goodman Schwerner and Chaney. That's a big deal in a country that gets it information from CNN and Fox. Also back then progressives could count on a hearing from the courts that avenue is narrowing by the second. WE need to hurt the corporations where they feel it.. in the pocket book. Step One: Turn off the TV sets! Step Two: Buy BLUE!
Step Three: Fund a network
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #94
132. this is important
As u say Mark:

"It's therefore crucial that we not despair, or paralyze ourselves with undue worries vis-a-vis the seeming or alleged indifference of "the masses."
---------------
--I'm convinced that many people really do know what's going on...but they don't have much faith in being able to do anything about it. There is a pervasive malaise in this country, a sense of powerlessness, a deep discontent waiting to be harnessed to a purpose. The people we need on our side are not the Neo-Con element.
Forget them. The majority of people in this country want regime change. That's who we need to reach out to. I intend to use your book as an aid to informing people about the dysfunctional election system. The (s)election of 2004 clearly proves that the system is a national disgrace.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
64. I see a relationship between dwindling newspaper subscriptions
and the last stolen election -- as you say, there is a huge disconnect here.

The NYT sent out a mass email to reassure us there was no story in the Ohio recount. :eyes: At that point, many of us protested and cancelled our subscriptions.

That's a problematic solution, at best.

Could you comment on this? Who were some people or outlets who surprised you by denying or dismissing the idea of election theft?



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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
69. Why hasn't at least ONE plotter come forth?
Surely, with so many schemes in operation, the number of people directly involved in stealing votes would have to be in the tens or hundreds. Even if they were all True Believers, I'd expect that one or more would have come forward by now.

Why haven't they?
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. How about"Dieb-Throat"? Clint Curtis? Sherole Eaton?
All were insiders who have gone public. As have many, many people who have filed affidavits in Ohio and elsewhere about election (and recount) corruption that they witnessed and have testified to. Maybe if any of these early "whistle-blowers" received any respect or coverage, more would come forward. Just a thought.
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. OK, let me rephrase my question . . .
We've got three reports: 1 insider (anonymous), 1 observer, and 1 insider (identity known).

Clearly, these reports sank beneath the media sand without a trace. they were (apparently) lumped with Sasquatch sitings and Kennedy Assassination theories. And yet, they suggested conspiracies including not the hundreds I speculated on earlier, but thousands of active participants -- and not a centralized effort, but distributed: many jurisdictions, many methods.

This should have sprung a HUGE leak by now, with 10, 20, 50 whistleblowers. Why not?

(Disclaimer -- I happen to be convinced that the 2004 election was indeed stolen, but I can't imagine how. Maybe Miller's book is the place to look.)
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #83
115. The whole theft could have been accomplished by 25 people
who fully understood the rigging of the machines.

Remember the voting machines used in FL are the same ones used in TX, PA, etc., all over the country.

It's true that the critical states would have required more than the "default" tilt that is provided by the factory, so there might have been a pretty good number of brown shirts to carry out what was needed. But when you pay off an election official or you convince them that the machines are being unjustly criticized, and the officials have a great desire to see the DREs succeed, those people go "blind" pretty easily.

Also remember that somebody who "patches" a machine or plugs a floppy into a central tabulator, doesn't have to know exactly what the thing does. He's just working with or for the machine makers or maybe with some group that sympathizes with the machine makers or the Repubs. Rob Behler who patched the GA Diebold machines in 02, didn't know what his patch did exactly. He just applied it to the machines, supposedly to remedy one of the many problems that arose during the election.

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #83
133. in a culture in which many people cheat
Edited on Fri Nov-04-05 02:11 AM by marions ghost
there's not a lot of incentive to speak out. When even the Democratic party rolls over and plays dead in the face of massive disenfranchisement and fraud, what's in it for whistleblowers? They'd just be marginalized.

The fact is the political machine DEPENDS on being able to manipulate the vote. But many Americans are in denial about how widespread this is. I worked as a local election worker in the 90's. You wouldn't believe the stuff that happened but there were no lawsuits, no investigations. It did election workers no good to complain or try to address the issues. The mechanism to deal with all this corruption did not exist then and it's now made much worse by the advent of black box voting. Many methods of disenfranchisement and fraud exist --perpetrated by "active participants" all over the country. The basic philosophy is--it's only smart to act in your own best interest--the ends justify the means.

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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
72. Hello, Mr. Miller!
I wanted to ask you about an interview you did with the magazine "Stay Free!" for their special "conspiracy issue" back in 2002. In it, you raised issues with JFK's assassination, and I have to ask whether you actually believe that the facts of the Kennedy asassination are as they seem, or if you believe that there was a conspiracy involved.

Also, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Right Wing billionaire-funded think tank/foundation hegemony, and how it limits and distorts the media.

Thanks for your time, and I'm a big fan. Keep it up!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
75. I am a Republican, and I am not fooled by these people...
I read and enjoyed "The Bush Dyslexicon". It was very refreshing to see that I wasn't crazy.

My first indication that Bush was inadequate was when, during the 2000 Debates, Bush harnessed the vast ignorance of the millions of people who did not understand Gore's simple plan by calling it "Fuzzy Math".
I knew, at that moment, that this man would turn America's ignorance to his advantage... but I did not know just how bad it would be.

I have not read all of your work (yet), but I wonder if you believe that this administration is actively pursuing the 'dumbing down' of America as a part of their agenda, or if it is merely incidental to their policies?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #75
86. Do you mean paternalism or something like?
Because that whole "Bush will keep you safer" is an invitation to extend mindless trust. Isn't that a tactic of predators in nature?
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #86
128. I was referring specifically to the tactic Bush used...
when he realized (perhaps) that if he didn't understand what Gore was laying out, then a significant number of Americans did not either. And with that, he gained instant rapport with many people.

That 'fuzzy math' volley was so very potent, but it's substance was based on ignorance.

It was then that I knew this person would use America's ignorance to accomplish his ends.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #128
153. I hope Gore didn't give them this tool. But he may have, they
don't have much of an imagination. :(
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
76. How DO We Stop Them From Stealing The Next (And Future) Election/s?
In your opinion, Mark (and anyone else who cares to respond) are paper trails enough? Should we have TWO paper trails, one carried by the voter, the other collected by the Voting Commission, for possible re-count?

We need to be sure that votes cannot be "disappeared" and, to my way of thinking, the only way to insure that is to have TWO paper trails...that way, a voter who feels his vote was mishandled could lodge a protest, and the Voting Commission would have to prove the voter's vote was counted as cast, by producing the other paper record.

Anonymity in voting could still be preserved by having the receipts be NUMBERED.

What do you think?
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #76
121. We need at least three reforms to improve the integrity of the elections
Voter-verified paper ballots

Mandatory random manual audits of between 5-10% of the VVPB

No wireless communication capability in any electronic voting system

I would also recommend moving away from DREs entirely in favor of optical scan systems (with ballot marking devices like the Automark to assist disabled voters.)

But because optical scan machines can also be tampered with, the mandatory random manual audits and no wireless capability are critical components of a more secure voting process. However, optical scan ballots are paper ballots, so you start and end with a VVPB.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #121
130. Agreed
well put.

Move away from DREs entirely. They cost three times as much to operate as opti-scan and cannot be made free of glitches and vulnerability anytime soon. They need to be discontinued immediately.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #121
154. This is a very clear articulation of what is needed and
deserves its own GD thread.

Andy used to be very patient with me and took time to explain when I didn't understand. But, I understood your post easily.

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Fiendish Thingy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
77. Look forward to seeing you this Sunday in Capitola!
Where our Santa Cruz County registrar just approved the Sequoia system for use in the next election, saying she had to approve something, in order to comply with HAVA...

How can we resist having touch-screens rammed down our throats? If it can happen in ultra-liberal Santa Cruz, it can happen anywhere...

Is civil disobedience our only recourse?
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mrsadm Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
78. A completely different type of question .....
Mark, first, THANKS for being here with us!

I realize the current adminstration has probably stolen the election and illegally sent us to war, BUT .....

My biggest problem is trying to understand why so many dolts,-- er, people, voted them in, in the first place. Their policies hurt the little guys who put them in office!

Do you have any thoughts on why this is, Mark? My theory is the influence of right wing talk shows .....

Thanks for your thoughts in this area.
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
81. Hello, Mr. Miller...... and welcome
Thanks for being here today. I have a couple of concerns that I would like to address:

1. I am seeing that some states are having success at mandating paper ballots and "outlawing" touchscreen voting with secret, proprietary vote-counting (and transmitting) software. Why is there not a unified, state-to-state effort to "standardize" this process, wherever possible, so that the process is streamlined?

2. Why don't we have a big organization (say, like the DNC) throwing muscle and money into the process of de-privatizing our vote-counting process? How can we attract support from large organizations for this effort?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
84. Professor Miller
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 01:35 PM by nadinbrzezinski
let me ask you if you believe, as I am starting to, that we will need International Monitors, clear plastic boxes, and federal ballots to clean up the system? that is what it took in Mexico to clean it and have the PRI loose a national election. And Mexico is just one example....

Oh and I ask because I am aware of the consequences politically if this were to occur.

Oh and locally I will keep pushing.

Thanks in advance, and kudos on the Harper's article, lets just say I got a couple extra issues and ahem forgot them in convenient places.

;-)

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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
85. My question
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 01:47 PM by Capn Sunshine
The media has repeatedly partitioned any discussion of this topic into the "conspiracy theory" pigeonhole.

Will there ever be a way to discuss this without someone bringing up tinfoil hats, et al?
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
87. Doublethink
I just wanted to tell you that I use your work in the university writing and public speaking classes that I teach in northern NJ. I just finished showing my classes the Bill Moyers video in which you talk about doublethink and how knowing and being aware of it doesn't immunize us from its effects.




Cher
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DUBYASCREWEDUS Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
89. I live in Cleveland, Ohio -
Land of Blackwell the Evil. I know he stole the 2004 election. How can we - as ordinary citizens - stop them from doing it again? Are you familiar with State Issues 2, 3, 4 and 5? We have been receiving conflicting views on whether or not to vote for them. Do you know of them, and if so, do you have an opinion?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. I don't know about those issues.
What do Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman say? Free Press is
terrific. I trust them all implicitly re: all electoral issues in Ohio.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #89
156. Fitrakis' take on Issues 2,3,4,5 --
Is here. Essentially he says - Yes! Good. - and we need more...
<http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2005/1248>

If you have time this weekend Reform Ohio Now is looking for people to make phone calls to residents to get out and vote for 2, 3, 4, 5 --
<http://www.reformohionow.org/content.jsp?content_KEY=1001&t=action>

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Selteri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
91. In your book I'm sure you mention Ohio
Do you follow the details and qestions about the 'stickers' that some people saw on the ballots being resubmitted in the very stifled and hard fought recall or do you more lump them into a grocery list with more detail paid to specific causes of it, such as the GOP Monitors who were inside the voting areas and harassed some people to try to keep them from voting?
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
97. I live in Georgia, the Diebold Beta test site for election stealing...,
...Have we mad any positive progress in Georgia since 2004, have things gotten worst, and what can we here in Georgia do to regain our right to a free, fair and transparent Vote count?

Thanks
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
98. What do you think of parallel polls/parallel elections?
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 02:54 PM by Carolab
Is this realistic?

Also, would you comment on the fact that the polls are controlled/owned by the media and how this works to distort the results?
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
101. A ray of hope
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 03:03 PM by Generator
That this book is out there. Thank you! thank you! thank you! I'm going to buy it for my husband for Christmas.

The only question to me seems to be HOW does this story get into the media and get discussed seriously? Because first there must be light on the issue to have reform that is meaningful.

Okay-here's a wild idea-and a horrible one-as we watch the further crumbling and dismantling of the Bush adminstration, as more and more of those in his corner will want to distance themselves-the way out-forgiveness for the American people-you didn't vote for this guy anyway! It's not your fault. (It's not funny.)

So..if we can't get our side-the Democratic establishment to take this seriously how can we get others that may be the most staunch Republicans but still want far elections? Anyway-I am thrilled to see this here. Thanks, Skinner.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
105. Happy anniversary of the stolen 2004 election, Mark!
As an election reformist on local, state and national levels, I thank you for discussing and writing about THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE facing our country.

In March 2006, the full-length documentary, Votergate, will be released, exposing the dark underworld of the electronic voting industry. It is my understanding that it will have a broad theater distribution. Call me optimistic and crazy, but if this documentary has the exposure it deserves, combined with books and articles such as yours already out there, could this be the tipping point we've been waiting for? Could this stir a critical mass that could cause sweeping changes across the land? Please say yes.

More info on Votergate:

http://www.votergate.tv/history.html
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
106. Hi Mr. Miller! I have been approached to do a ballot initiative to turn my
state into a vote by mail state, like Oregon. We recently went Diebold DRE. What is your opinion on the Oregon vote by mail system?

Thanks!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
111. Professor Miller,
First of all thank you for visiting and answering.

I'd like to know if you know of any way to get attention for this issue with politicians. It seems precious few of them are willing to do anything about it, and other than helping with Jackson's efforts to get a real voter rights law passed, is there anything else that might work?

With the GAO report out, one would think it should be easier, but...
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
112. I have a question for Prof. Miller!
And my question is this - do you think that, given all the clear information we had and are getting about both the 2000 election and the 2004 election that we'll ever see it on the front pages of the so-called "liberal media"?
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
119. In Canada
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 05:15 PM by LiberalLovinLug
paper ballots have been the norm ever since I can remember. Sorry for stating the obvious but...
If it ain't broke....why fix it? Sometimes "progress" is a worse solution ie. voting machines.

Here, the voter draws a big x beside the candidate, on paper, and drops it into the box. Clear, with no hanging chads. Spoiled ballots are easy to recognise.

Then the people we employ for the day count the ballots, with representatives from the parties over seeing. all this is done and over by 8 o'clock or so the very same day.

Efficient, simple, and fraud-proof. Also all provinces use the same systems, boxes, etc...

It would be interesting to find out when the first voting machine was marketed and pushed and in what state, and which company that was associated with that. Could it be that the voting machine itself was planned as a weapon to grab and keep power for the far right?

I suppose your book answers that, I'll have to pick it up.
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #119
126. I've posted on Spain's system before, but here goes (again).
Somewhat similar to what you describe. Paper sheets representing a party's slate are chosen, marked, and deposited (or mailed, for absentees) in the urns.

Tables of citizens called to election duty (the way we call jurors) count the votes. If they don't agree on the numbers, they go back to counting until there is agreement. Then the paper ballots are sealed in an envelope that is forwarded to a central location. I believe the count is indicated on the outside of the envelope, and the envelope is opened only in case of questions or discrepancies.

The count goes very fast. Zapatero's election was clear before dawn the next day.

The fact that no-one has to register to vote, since everyone has a national ID card that is used to prove identity, means that one simply shows up in one's precinct, goes to the appropriate table (I think each table is for 300 voters), and votes.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
123. questions about the impact of online activism
how much influence do you think online activism, i.e. blogs and forums like DU, has on our media and on our political process?

how do you think we can become more effective in influencing what makes it into the mainstream media?

do you think we're likely to see a commercial backlash against the degree of freedom we currently have in online communities like DU?

to what degree does the internet threaten the commercial viability of more traditional sources of news and how will these other sources adapt to the "new media"?

i would be very interested to hear your thoughts on any or all of these questions ... thanks so much for sharing your ideas with us ...
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
129. MCM, Why do you favor Early Voting?
Edited on Thu Nov-03-05 10:04 PM by Bill Bored
You say we should "extend the voting period to, say, a week."

If we are concerned about security, early voting is not advisable.

The longer the machines are available to accept votes, the greater the temptation and opportunity to screw around with them. Also, early voting gives any potential fraudster the knowledge of how the election is going so that vote rigging can be targeted to areas on election day in which the early results were "disappointing" and in need of reversal.

Wouldn't it be safer/better to have an Election Day holiday to allow everyone to get to the polls?
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #129
131. Looking at it another way
Early voting can be used as a comparison to election day voting. In North Carolina I believe 30% of the votes were early voting and there were some interesting anomalies. "Reversal" of trends can be easily seen.

I have voted early for the last 12 years--it is really great to just walk in and not have to wait in long lines. Voting goes much more smoothly. IF we could TRUST our system then voting could take place over a couple of weeks and so many more people could vote because of the convenience. And the final election day could be a holiday also. As the system stands now it prevents working people from voting. Voters need as much help as we can get.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #131
136. Yes but it's just the sort of thing some "evil doer"
Edited on Fri Nov-04-05 03:19 AM by Bill Bored
would want to exploit. The longer the process goes on, the more vulnerable it is.

And with early voting, your ballot isn't secret.
See: http://www.ncvoter.net/earlyvoting.html

It's a little known fact that in order to keep track of who voted when (so you can't vote more than once during the extended period or again on election day), the machines keep track of individual ballots and voters and the two can be associated.

So for that bit of convenience you give up your right to a secret ballot and you risk having your vote tampered with in the process.

Sometimes democracy isn't as easy as we would like it to be.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #136
144. Early voting is a HUGE amount of convenience-- not a little bit
--it really suits our way of life so much better. You can fit it into your schedule and avoid long lines--it's a GREAT incentive to vote! I consider early voting a highly progressive innovation.

Vote tampering obviously goes on on election day--that's the basic problem, not when voting happens. As for secret ballot this does not have to be compromised--an accessible record is kept of the fact that you voted (not how you voted). Considering the massive amount of fraud and corruption in the system, this is a relatively easy fix.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. Well then you're talking abut Early Voting REFORM -- not just Early Voting
But meanwhile, we have been plowing ahead with it, for the sake of "convenience" and reducing the costs of elections, making them easier for the BoEs to run, reducing the number of precincts on Election Day, and not paying attention to the risks. And this will eventually make it more difficult for people to vote on Election Day by increasing the distance they must travel to get to their precinct, not to mention the chaos that reducing the number of precincts will cause. How many votes are lost that way?

You are speaking about some idealistic future in which we will have free, fair, transparent and convenient elections where nobody wants to cheat. We are a long way from that and we probably never had it to begin with. Sticking e-votin' machines in Walmart and McDonalds isn't the answer and in the present system, it's simply an invitation to fraud.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. I'm talking about election reform
in all aspects --including early voting, which has the potential to help millions of people vote who otherwise would not. What's the harm in shooting for the ideal voting system after putting up with this dysfunctional one for so long. (Believe me, I DO know exactly how bad it is).

I don't know where you're getting your info about this, but where I am, there are NO FEWER precincts open on voting day...they just aren't jam-packed anymore...no waits over 20 minutes or so. (WHO said anything about voting machines in Wal-Mart?--certainly not me). Nobody is suggesting to reduce precincts to a level that cause problems.

Maybe you've never experienced the joys of early voting with paper ballots? I take it that Mark C. Miller's response to this issue was that if you get paper ballots you can then have innovations such as early voting. That's pretty much how I see it too.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #149
159. Yeah yeah; sure sure.
But the reality is that precincts are being consolidated in many states.
You will have to read up on it, but numerous articles have been posted about this the DU Election Reform forum and elsewhere. I don't have the time right now to cite them.

The link to the NC group posted above explains the loss of the secret ballot due to early voting.

John Kerry lost the state of IA by 10,000 votes but won Early voting by thousands of votes in one county alone, Story County. On Election Day in the same county, his margin was reduced to a slim one.

In the state of GA, Kerry won early voting by bout 70-30% but lost the state by a similar margin on election day. Why? How is such a dramatic reversal possible?

I think once the system is rock solid, early voting might work, but right now, it's a recipe for fraud. I guess we can agree to disagree abut this or whatever, but right now it's just another excuse to explain anomalous election results, e.g., "the Dems won early voting because they had an aggressive early voting campaign, but they lost on election day after all the votes were counted." Yeah yeah; sure sure.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. the efforts to undermine the system on election day
would happen regardless of early voting. Early voting does not cause it to happen. Early voting results are handy in pointing out the patterns of possible 'reversals' as you point out. When the whole system is corrupt, it's hard to pick out parts of it as better or worse than others. Early voting is not something that should be discontinued as we work to clean up the system. As I said before I think early voting can be accomplished without losing the concept of secret ballot. File that under "early voting reform."

As far as the precinct consolidation argument, I will look that up. But that did not happen in my area. Instead voter rolls increased and precincts remained the same.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #129
142. I don't think we should be using those machines.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #142
147. Well either do I but the reality is, they are out there.
So we either have to get rid of them or make them safe. But early voting makes them less safe.

The best way to make them safe is for them to produce voter verified paper audit records, to audit them randomly, and audit more of them whenever there is a discrepancy or whenever the election is close enough to be reversed without detection by the initial audit. We are so far from implementing even these basic checks and balances that it isn't funny.

Early voting would truly be the icing on the cake if we ever get to the point where elections can be verified to begin with. But for now, I think it's premature. (Don't mean to pick on you! You're doing a great job bringing these issues to the fore.)

Come join us on the City Hall steps on 11/7 at 11:15 AM for a press conference and rally for paper ballots for NYC!

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=169x4622>

Peace.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
135. Hi Mark.... Alastair from Scoop NZ here....
Edited on Fri Nov-04-05 03:13 AM by althecat
I will have to buy your book ASAP. And am delighted you have decided to come and chat here in DU. I remember vividly when you wrote this... from the look of things both the original source URLs are now dead...

http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2003_09_21_markcrispinmiller_archive.html#106417707745761392


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0309/S00187.htm
Blogwatch: Election Theft 2000! A New Bombshell!
Monday, 22 September 2003, 11:31 am
Opinion: Scoop Blogwatch

Election Theft 2000! A New Bombshell!

Diebold Internal Support Memos
Sunday, September 21, 2003
(DIRECT LINK TO THIS BLOG ENTRY)
CHECK THIS OUT!
http://www.sunrise.it/s/lists/support.w3archive/200101/msg00069.html
A remarkable exchange concerning Diebold's voting machines in Volusia County, Florida. On January 17, 2001, Lana Hines, a county elections official sends out an inquiry as to how Al Gore ended up with a vote-count of -16,022. That's NEGATIVE 16,022謡hich just happens also to have been the total number of votes cast for various independent and third-party candidates who also ran. (It was the largest number of such votes cast in Volusia County's history.)

Pay close attention to the final entry, from "Tab"葉hat is, Talbot Iredale, Vice President of Research & Development at Global/Diebold. The most troubling of his statement is in bold below. Iredale writes:

...the error could only occur in one of four ways:

"1.Corrupt memory card. This is the most likely explaination for the problem but since I know nothing about the 'second' memory card I have no ability to confirm the probability of this.
2.Invalid read from good memory card. This is unlikely since the candidates<'> results for the race are not all read at the same time and the corruption was limited to a single race.There is a possibilty that a section of the memory card was bad but since I do not know anything more about the 'second' memory card I cannot validate this.

3.Corruption of memory, whether on the host or Accu-Vote. Again this is unlikely due to the localization of the problem to a single race.

4.Invalid memory card (i.e. one that should not have been uploaded). There is always the possiility that the 'second memory card' or 'second upload' came from an un-authorised source."
And that's only the tip of the iceberg.

When will this all-important story break out in the US mainstream press?

When will the Democrats confront the issue? What is at stake here is their future as a party預nd ours as a democracy.

ENDS


My Question is .... does Volusia County in the book?

I was always very disappointed after we followed up your story

Diebold Memos Disclose Florida 2000 E-Voting Fraud
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

A month later.... :) that Dana Millbank didn't go back and dig a bit deeper into this. For me I thought this discovery was a bit of a breakthrough in terms of indicating that fraud had quite probably occurred at a fairly high level in the 2000 election.

Best regards....

Alastair

P.S. I will have a scout around the thread to figure out the best place to buy the book.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #135
137. That negative vote thing seriously pisses me off
They don't let you vote pi or the square root of two, do they? Minus one is just as bogus.
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #135
140. Alastair, I'm honored by your praise
Scoop.co.nz is indispensable! 1,000 thanks.

Yes, in Fooled Again I do deal with Volusia County容specially with the fact that Fox News called the race for Bush just at that moment when those 16,000+ Democratic votes had temporarily zipped down the rabbit hole.

You can get the book from own blog, at markcrispinmiller.com, or from Buzzflash.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
138. I don't know if you'll be returning to this thread, but . . .
if you do happen to stop by . . .

are you familiar with a book entitled "Votescam: The Stealing of America" by James M. and Kenneth E. Collier? . . . I read a few chapters posted online and was fascinated . . . I'm thinking of buying the book since I can't find it any any local library, and was curious about whether you had any opinion on the book or the authors . . .

thanks, and welcome to DU . . . :)

http://www.votescam.com/orderbook.php
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. Kerry told me that he thinks the race was stolen
I mentioned this on "Democracy Now!" this morning. and it has evidently
taken off. Please check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=399775&mesg_id=399790
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. ya done good, sir! I watched you this morning!
I have been approached to do a ballot initiative to turn my
state into a vote by mail state, like Oregon. We recently went Diebold DRE. What is your opinion on the Oregon vote by mail system?

Thanks!

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. What helderheid said!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The issue is too important to hide on the back burner.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #139
146. Did you record the conversation?
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #139
148. so far
Edited on Fri Nov-04-05 02:55 PM by Lexingtonian
I'm not convinced that much has taken place that is any worse than what was going on in the 1960 election. Though that is a sadly low bar.

My own analysis is that the structural root of the corruption lies in the many ex-felon/parolee/probationer disenfranchisement laws. It's tragic what these open the door to in preventing national standards and selective screwing with registrations and obstructing elegibility and turnout and actual ability to cast the ballot.

I can't get straight answers why there is no significant widespread effort by higher level Democrats to achieve their rollback in whatever increments- Democrats don't benefit from these laws anywhere I know of but Republicans do so and greatly, the 'soft on crime' and criminal-coddling angle to it is an excuse rather than a viable explanation in the polling evidence. There's no compelling excuse for such laws still existing in New Jersey or Washington State I can see and less excuse than imagined for them existing in New York State or California or Maryland and Delaware. In a lot of Republican-run places it's admitted that these laws have no meaningful foundation or purpose ethically and the real number of votes they suppress are fairly small (80-90% of formerly incarcerated people in the states where they are permitted to vote never actually do), though those votes tend very much to go to Democrats.

I don't know how many more Florida recounts and Washington recounts are necessary or how many tiltings of the table as in Ohio and military balloting are going to be enabled until there's action taken on the problem laws. Problem ballots and technical musings about poor quality manipulable machinery seem much more manageable issues, and a lot more fun, but the rot simply goes far deeper.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
151. What do you think of old fashioned voting methods, a
Edited on Fri Nov-04-05 03:27 PM by Cleita
paper ballot, marked by hand and counted by hand twice by members of each party? The Canadians and French seem to be able to have efficient and honest elections with this method. Why can't we? Introducing machines into this process seems to invite increasing errors or even downright cheating. I think machines should be used only to verify the counts, not make them.
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pissedoffinct Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-05 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
152. Election Night 2004
The vast difference between the exit polling data, and the results that came out after 10 PM that night shocked everyone, including the winners.

My neighbor happens to be a really nice, bright, solid republican who thinks Bush is the worst president in history. But, he is friends with a significant republican operative in DC. Top-shelf kind of guy.

That night, the operative called my neighbor to tell him that Kerry had won. No doubt about it, Bush had lost the election.

If you were watching the various network anchors that night, you could clearly see confusion in their eyes as well. They were completely baffled as to how the results they were reporting were so different than the results they had planned on reporting based on their exit data.

The following day things got very, very quiet on the republican front. It's as if they didn't want to stir the pot. Frankly, I think many of them were stunned at the outcome and had absolutely no idea how it happened. But it did...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #152
155. And then they trotted out the fake "values voters". And that
whole weekend, the meme was repeated endlessly by BOTH PARTIES, most notably by Donna Brazzile -- whom I wouldn't trust with a popsicle.

It was disgusting. Even I knew it was stolen and at that time, I knew nothing about the machines.
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occuserpens Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
158. Why support Kerry and claim that Elections-2004 were stolen?
Edited on Sat Nov-05-05 03:09 PM by occuserpens
It is quite clear that 2004 elections were dirty in several ways:
-- Overwhelming media support for the GOP
-- Redistricting
-- Limited access to voting sites is outrageous. Nobody is supposed to wait more than certain time (say 15 min) in the voting line!
-- There was direct vote-rigging starting for computer voting.
-- All this is likely to get worse :-(

However


-- Nobody is supposed to care about voting irregularities more than the candidate. Political process is not suicide watch, if the candidate does not care to do much - he has to be forgotten.
-- In fact, Paul Krugman has already developed problems defending Kerry, I really regret this! Krugman's articles make sense - unlike Kerry's pointless events. It is a real pity that they are not generally available any more.
-- In Nov/Dec 2004, Orange revolution in Ukraine and fight against Kuchma's vote-rigging were used to switch attention from the US elections. Kerry did not object this in the least.

???

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