What the hell is an Islamo-fascist anyway?

[LittleClarkie]

Does that label have ANY anchor in reality?

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to work out how we in the Dem Party are supposed to be both Marxist and Fascist, according to some Righties.

[DancingBear]

1. It's me - I think

Just don't spread it around -if it gets out it'll be hugh!!!!!!!

:) :)

[eallen]

2. The better term is Islamic fundamentalist. Our own Christo-taliban....

Our own Christo-taliban doesn't like that term, because it draws attention to their similarity.

[RagAss]

4. The only difference is our taliban has fat asses !!!!!

[Jacobin]

6. Also, the Christofascists have lots and lots of nukes

[Poppyseedman]

5. Our own Christo-taliban don't cut off your head for unbelief

or cut off your hand for stealing or your feet for running away, or enslaving children because of what their parents believe.

Poor analogy.

[eallen]

10. That's because they are not in power.

Dobson, Rushdooney, and the rest of the religious right are living in a liberal democracy defined by a secular constitution where a majority of people, regardless of their religious belief, do not desire a religious state. Were it up to Dobson or similar member of the religious right to draw a government from scratch, as did the Taliban after they took control in Afghanistan, I have no reason to think that it would be anything but gruesomely repressive.

There are almost two millenia of history that show Christian states can be every bit as ugly as Islamic ones. Even here in America, a mere three centuries ago, when the Puritans ruled Massachussetts, they hung witches, put people in stocks for immoral behavior, mandated modest clothing, and -- demonstrating the kind of silliness that marks religious regimes everywhere -- banned the celebration of Christmas.

[Poppyseedman]

27. Propaganda

There are almost two millenia of history that show Christian states can be every bit as ugly as Islamic ones.

I'd be the first to admit Christian states have had their moments in history, long, long ago, but pale in comparison to what the Islamic theocracy have done in the name of Allah today as well as 1,200 years of brutal behavior

Historically, you can't prove it. Go ahead and try.

[MN ChimpH8R]

28. Rushdooney and the rest of the dominionists envision

an "America" under strict Old Testament law - death penalty for just about everything, including stoning adulterers, drug users, etc. Blasphemy as a capital crime against the state. Just like the Islamic crazies as far as I can tell.

[Azathoth]

15. What do you think they did for hundreds of years?

Religious violence and insanity in this country only began to disappear within the past 200-300 years. Before that, fundies were hanging witches, abusing their wives and enslaving children with frightening regularity. The only reason they stopped is because they started to find themselves outnumbered and living in a secular country that did not tolerate such behavior. Their religious teachings didn't change first -- society did, and their religious teachings were forced to change with it.

Even today, when you look at the teachings of the hardcore American fundies and the hardcore "Islamofascists", you find disturbing similarities: absolute, unquestioned literal interpretation of religious laws (except the ones they don't like, of course), the complete rejection of rationalism and science, utter contempt for those who do not share their beliefs, and a God-given mandate to bring the government under iron-clad religious control through whatever means necessary. It just so happens that in modern day America, the fundies have realized that their religious revolution can be more practically accomplished by men in business suits than by men with Kalashnikovs.

[Poppyseedman]

26. You really should read real history literature

instead of the pablum you just wrote. It has no relationship to reality.

Before that, fundies were hanging witches, abusing their wives and enslaving children with frightening regularity

snip

the complete rejection of rationalism and science, utter contempt for those who do not share their beliefs, and a God-given mandate to bring the government under iron-clad religious control through whatever means necessary.

[Zenlitened]

33. Well-said.

... in modern day America, the fundies have realized that their religious revolution can be more practically accomplished by men in business suits than by men with Kalashnikovs.

[Mutley]

29. No, but they have burned people at the steak for heresey.

And they've hanged people by their necks from tree limbs for being anything other than fat, white, and republican -- oh, and straight.

[Poppyseedman]

3. You can ask them right before they cut off your head, you infidel

Islamo-fascist is really a form of state sanctioned extremist theocracy.

[Tower]

7. Do you remember what Victoria Clarke was calling the Iraqi soldiers

just after the invasion began?

Terrorist Death Squad Thugs.

Several other administration officials used the same desciptor, but they dropped it after a day or two- it was just too plastic. They'd wanted to stuff the description with every negative idea they could fit into a name, and they ended up with that unwieldy sobriquet. Might as well have called them "Bad Bad Smelly Stinker Poopheads".

Anyway- same thing with "Islamofascism". It's just as stupid, but it *is* shorter.

[rockymountaindem]

8. No, it has no grounding in reality, because

in order to be fascist, one's country must be industrialized. The only industrialized Arab countries are the gulf microstates and the UAE, and they don't seem to have a problem with terrorism at the moment.

Tough nuggies for the RW wordsmiths.

[nashbridges]

11. ?

"in order to be fascist, one's country must be industrialized"

WTF?

About the only thing you need to be fascist, by its very definition, is to control a large amount of people without their consent. I'd imagine that can be done without being "industrialized".

[rockymountaindem]

12. Wrong

Please see Benito Mussolini's definition of fascism, "Fascism is more rightly called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power". No industrialization, no corporations. No corporations, no fascism. Simple as that.

[nashbridges]

14. Not wrong

Mussolini's fascism was a result of government, not industry. So was Hitler's.

One can argue that many African governments are fascist without being the rulers of an industrialized nation. If I find a country with no appreciable industry that feels oppressed, will you give me a break?

[rockymountaindem]

16. Oppression is not necessarily fascism.

Fascism contains many specific elements ranging from economic policy to class ideology to racial/ethnic constructs. Just because someplace has a dictatorial government doesn't make them fascist. Dictatorships are bad, but not all dictatorships are fascist. Here's a quote from Wikipedia,

"Fascism (in Italian, fascismo), capitalized, was the authoritarian political movement which ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. More generally, uncapitalized, fascism is State control of economics, typified by government-run cartels of nominally private entities. Such political movements spread across Europe between World War I and World War II and took several forms such as Nazism, Clerical fascism, and Neofascism, which is sometimes used to describe post-WWII movements seen to have fascist attributes.

Fascism is typified by attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life, particularly economic life. Policies wherein the State regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizes) the means of production are said to be fascist. The definitional debates and arguments by academics over the nature of fascism, however, fill entire bookshelves. There are clearly elements of both left and right ideology in the development of Fascism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Please tell me how countries like Egypt and Libya meet those specific criteria of fascism.

[nashbridges]

17. Those are your only examples of Africa?

Zimbabwe has managed to become the very definition, without being industrialized. Nothing but farmland.

And it fits your own definition, btw. State control over all aspects of life, even what land you own.

[rockymountaindem]

19. We're talking about "Islamofascism".

Zimbabwe is not an Islamic country.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Funny how totalitarian Communism looks just like Totalitarian Fascism

You can have one without the other indeed.

[Telly Savalas]

9. I think there are some Pastafario-fascists in the Lounge.

You might try asking them.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. Islamo-fascism is a phrase I am very suspicious about.

It seems to be a talking point used by certain fringe elements to sell never ending war in the Middle East. I recall Peter Beinart, Editor of the New Republic using the phrase when he called for the expulsion of moveon.org and progressives from the Democratic Party on the grounds that they are reticent about continual military conflict in the Arab and Muslim world.

I frankly believe that the words were intentionally chosen to inspire racial and religious bigotry primarily against Arabs and Muslims while cloaking it in a veneer of fighting fascism.

[slaveplanet]

20. Here's a good backgrounder

Emory is a protege' of Mae Brussels.

I myself refer to them as Islamonazi's because it's a more apt description...with the exception of oil they lack the full corporate firepower of bonafide fascists.

Providing historical background to the operations of Islamofascism in contemporary times, this broadcast fleshes out some of the history of the collaboration between Nazi Germany (and—to a lesser extent—Fascist Italy) and key elements of the Islamic world. (One should note in this context that the term Islamofascism applies to a considerable portion of the Islamist milieu, but that many Islamists are not fascists but religious extremists. The focal point of the program is Haj Amin Al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the first leader of the Palestinian national movement. The subject of much discussion in past programs (see references in the text below), “Der Grossmufti” was a pivotal Axis operative. In addition to mentoring Yasser Arafat, the Grand Mufti worked for the SS and collaborated closely with members of the Muslim Brotherhood. Much of this program focuses on his formation of Muslim fighting formations for the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht and the legacy that those units have perpetuated into contemporary times. After detailed, substantive discussion of the units and the ethnic and religious history that contributed to (and resulted from) their formation, the broadcast highlights contemporary manifestations of those conflicts. In particular, the program highlights the legacy of the Third Reich as it manifests itself in Islamofascist and Wahhabi activism in the Balkans and regions of the former Soviet Union such as Chechnya. A major element of the program concerns the pivotal role of Bush aide Karl Rove in forming the Al Taqwa/Muslim Brotherhood links with the Republican Party. In addition to Rove’s collaboration with Grover Norquist in bringing the Islamists into the GOP, the broadcast underscores the significant efforts of Bush associate Talat Othman in realizing the Islamist connection to the GOP. A director of Harken Energy (one of George W.’s failed oil companies) and an intimate of the BCCI milieu, Othman intereceded with former Treasury secretary Paul O’Neill on behalf of the targets of the 3/20/2002 Operation Green Quest raids. (See FTR#356.)

Program Highlights Include: the formation of the Bosnian Muslim 23rd Waffen SS (“Kama”) Division; review of the facts concerning the formation of the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen SS (“Handjar”) Division; review of the formation of the Albanian 21st Waffen SS (“Skanderbeg”) Division; comparison of the formation of the Skanderbeg Division to the contemporary creation of related elements of the Kosovo Liberation Army; review of the “New” “Handjar” Division in contemporary Bosnia-Herzogovina; discussion of the collaboration of Balkan Muslims with the Croatian Ustachi; the composition and combat operations of joint Croatian/Muslim Wehrmacht units; an overview of the many Muslim units that fought with the Axis powers; discussion the Waffengruppe-Der SS “Krim” (composed of Chechen Muslims and the forebearers of the Chechen rebels currently active in Russia); the combat role of the German Al Qaeda operative Christian Ganczarski in Bosnia-Herzegovina; the Muslim Brotherhood’s parental relationship with Hamas; Chechen fighters seeking refuge in Georgia.
http://spitfirelist.com/f414.html

He has many other programs that delve into wider aspects of islamofascism and the muslim brotherhood...but this should be a good start. http://wfmu.org/listen.ram?show=8135

World War II era Arabs’ saying “In Heaven Allah, on earth, Hitler.”

[thebigidea]

21. a meaningless term used by the Michael Ledeen/Daniel Pipes types

and it smells as bad as anything else that comes out of their mouths.

[Kickin_Donkey]

22. I haven't done a systematic study of it, of course ...

but it seems to be a neocon buzzward. It's like the 21st-century version of the Commies, a new boogieman to rally the cause.

When I started hearing it frequently a few months ago, I instinctually disliked it. It didn't pass the smell test -- too loaded.

Then I see (or read, actually) Thomas Friedman and other of his neocon stripe bandy it about quite easily. Case settled.

[AntiFascist]

24. Interesting that it is a neocon buzzword....

it could spell a division between the Likudnik power base and the Saudi base. But then, there is always the threatened division between the Saudi royals and the fundamentalists. Whatever "economic control" is in place it will be the result of U.S., Saudi and other economic power centers. No matter what anyone tries to say, Iranian and Syrian Muslims will take their directives from Saudi Arabia, which is also the center for the Islamic faith.

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. definitely a buzz word --- I have to see that it is not only GOP neocons

who are promoting this talking point. If you check the mad racist ravings of Peter Beinart, Editor of the New Republic you--he loves this phrase as he argues to expel progressives from the Democratic Party and as he propagate the philosophy of never ending war and imperial domination of the Middle East.

[MisterP]

32. Americans for Victory Over Terrorism (AVOT) and the Committee

on the Present Danger (a resurrection of the org that made up the "missile gap" and the USSR's danger from the 50's on) are both supremely fond of it. Lieberman's also a member of both AVOT and CPD, but I don't think he's the driving force behind it.

[Silverhair]

23. Fascist has become a general-purpose insult word.

By extreme overuse it has been stripped of it's original meaning, and now means nothing.

Islamo of course would refer to a follower of Islam. In the context the term would mean an Islamic Radical who wants to impose his religiion on the rest of the world, by force if needed.

[The Stranger]

30. One word proof of the massive, ubiquitous Arab/Muslim "Other" in the West.

It's all right there. The new "Other."

[H2O Man]

31. Fuuny ....

last week I visited a friend. His spouse is a rabid republican, and she used that term, "Islamo-fascist." I asked her to define it. She sputtered, and said, "You know." I said that indeed, I knew the definition of both terms, and wanted to hear her explain why she used it. Of course, she couldn't. This allowed me to say how difficult it is to attempt an intelligent conversation with someone who parrots Sean Hannity's lines, without having a clue what they mean.

[Taxloss]

34. No, it's a baseless rhetorical chimera.

Fascism believes in the overweening power of the state. Islamic Fundamentalism is based on the supremacy of Sharia as defined by radical clerics and denigrates the state.

"Islamofascism" is an invention of those who wish to conflate the threat posed by Islamists with that posed by Hitler - and you could scarcely think of two more different systems.