Air America Founder Says Fitz "Fumbled" Plame Case

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

Air America Founder Sheldon Drobny, who has considerable experience with white collar criminal matters, says Fitz "fumbled" the Plame case:

In most conspiracy cases, one or more of the co-conspirators invariably lie to the FBI or the Grand Jury. That is something that prosecutors face all the time. The idea that Libby alone prevented Fitzgerald from proving the underlying crime is absurd. If Cheney told Libby about Valerie Plame, there was obviously a reason. The idea that Cheney, Libby, Rove and Bush did not talk to each other about the purpose of passing on this information to the press is simply not believable. And there were many ways that Fitzgerald could have proven the conspiracy in spite of Libby's lies. The fact that Libby lied would normally embolden a prosecutor to prove the underlying crime. This was not the case for Fitzgerald.

Read the whole thing:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldon-drobny/fitzgerald-threw-a-softba_b_9795.html

Fitzmas is looking to me more and more like Fizzlemas.

[PSPS]

1. Might be too early to tell

Maybe, and maybe not. There may very well be more to this ahead, as I don't think this will be the end of increased scrutiny of the criminal bush cabal. Besides, when I want a legal opinion, I don't go to a radio executive.

But what do I know? Maybe Fitzgerald is part of an elaborate charade, like Kerry was. Or maybe they threatened to anthrax his family. Who really knows?

[mac56]

4. "part of an elaborate charade, like Kerry was"

Explain, please.

[CarbonDate]

8. I think the implication is....

...that Kerry was actually a sleeper for the Republicans. Given what a lame candidate he was, it kind of makes sense, but I doubt it's true.

[mac56]

10. Puh-leez.

nm

[Goldeneye]

11. I swear some people here are delusional.

Anyone who thinks Kerry is a closet republican is being willfully ignorant. There is nothing republican about him. There never has been. It's a load of crap.

[mac56]

12. If that's what some people here think...

we need to start checking IQs at the door.

[DancingBear]

35. C'mon, mac

Maybe someone just gave them our address.

It's been a rough couple of days for them, you know? :)

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Who said being "Republican" was the reason.

Some loyalties never die......

[Goldeneye]

51. ohhh skull and bones!

booga booga. For holloween right?

[Goldeneye]

9. nm

[Evergreen Emerald]

2. this is premature

Unless the founder of Air America knows that this is the end of the indictments.

[FreedomAngel82]

14. Fitzgerald said it wasn't over

Someone didn't watch his press conference. :eyes:

[William769]

3. The investigation is not over.

He may "have considerable experience", but does he have inside knowledge? I think not.

[Window]

33. I'm with you.

I'll take my chances on Fitz. It ain't over till it's over.



Peace

[Popol Vuh]

5. I am hoping

for this drama to play out in the coming months leading up to the 2006 elections. Because what I want most out of this is for it to ruin the chances for the republican party to maintain control of congress, so that the Democrats will have what they need to file articles of impeachment against Bush pertaining to the Downy Street minutes.

Everything else is icing on the cake for me. :)

[Mend]

6. it seems like he did the bare minimum to me....eom

[mac56]

7. And maybe there's a reason for that.

Give it time.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

13. My opinion, my "punditry," since everyone else is guessing:

Having watched Fitz's press conference, hearing all the laws and rules he said he had to abide by, and based on what I've read about him and how he works and how sharp he is, I firmly believe that:

Nobody knows anything.

Except those who are getting visits from Fitz, and they only know so much, and have already proven themselves unreliable (sources of the truth, the whole truth...).

Therefore I will try my best to tune out all the punditry, guesswork etc. Not an easy thing to do, cause I'm dyin' to know how it all comes out.

[Joe Chi Minh]

15. Three words: Elizabeth de Vega.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

18. 3 more words

John Foster Dulles

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. Tee hee. Very good, but equally superficial.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

60. Henry Cabot Lodge? Hehe

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. Yes. Which reminds me. You keep my families out of this!

If you dare to Uncle Karl into this - assuming he has a middle name - that'll be the last straw.

"Nobody knows anything" - Humourinhieroglyphics.

There you go again....judging people by your own standards, however notional...

Do you realise that Elizabeth de Vega has enlightened you as to the reality? The process is incremental and remorseless. The number of indictments could reach 66 or more, and end up with the President as an unindicted conspirator.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. In most white collar conspiracy cases...

the defendants can't just play a "Sorry, it's national security" get out of jail free card.

From John Dean

If Fitzgerald had pursued a conspiracy or treason-esque charge with his first indictment, he'd have gone home empty-handed because the administration would have squashed it on national security grounds.

Fitzgerald did good. The obstructing justice indictment lays out all the relevant facts to prove the underlying crime. Why else would fitzgerald find in *this* indictment;
1) Plame's identity was a secret
2) The relevant people in the adminstration all had signed non disclosure agreements that obligated them to take whatever steps necessary to safeguard secret information.

Both are tangential to this indictment.

[Traveling_Home]

24. Plame Flame Game

You wrote:
"Fitzgerald did good. The obstructing justice indictment lays out all the relevant facts to prove the underlying crime. Why else would fitzgerald find in *this* indictment;
1) Plame's identity was a secret
2) The relevant people in the adminstration all had signed non disclosure agreements that obligated them to take whatever steps necessary to safeguard secret information.

Both are tangential to this indictment."

I thought Fitz said her status was classified not secret. I haven't checked and hope someone here can help but I remember thinking at the time that he was/might be making a distinction between the category of a 'covert' agent and the category of a 'classified' agent.

Anybody know the way the CIA categorizes an agent's status? Might be on their website. I'm guilty of having done no research but dinners ready!!!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Classified

f. Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.

[Traveling_Home]

55. Exactly

These guys are careful and technical details in legalese are almost always important. His choice of the word classified instead of covert as you noted was my interest. You hit the issue I questioned perfectly.

Covert vs. Classified

[emald]

17. Myabe there is something more coming

but Fitz didn't leave a lot of hope for that. In fact he all but said another indictment would not be coming. No, I think they found just the right guy for the job, an unusual thing for mr. shrubby. KKKarl ssscated. Bush lied, soldiers died and again they have turned the argument to the little legalities. STOP THE GDAMND WAR NOW. IT WAS BASED ONLIES. What do people not understand about lying to the country?:banghead:

[mac56]

19. When did he say or imply that another indictment would not be coming?

Please show me what gives you that impression.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

22. What COULD he have said about it if he is investigating someone else?

Almost nothing.

Also what did we know from him before this indictment?

Nothing.

It goes on, IMO.

[fasttense]

20. I'm not sure I agree with Sheldon Drobny.

Fitzgerald is a meticulous investigator. When he was assigned to the Illinois license scandal he did the same thing. He indicted underlings and later caught the big fish - the Governor. Ryan's inspector general Dean Bauer, an age-old friend, was charged with hampering investigations and hiding evidence at first. Of course the media kept asking about the Governor, but Fitzgerald wouldn't talk.

Bauer eventually pleaded guilty to obstructing justice. But later, Gov Ryan went down in flames with 22 counts against him. Fitzgerald took five years to investigate, 1998 to 2003. In that case too, Fitzgerald investigated until he was blue in the face. True Fitzgerald may have been able to indict and get convictions on less evidence but he seems to want to look into everything and make sure he does have every detail. It is just his style to go slow and carefully.

Rove is not off the hook, he's just dangling in the water. I think Fitzgerald is looking at some of the bigger fish too.

[melody]

21. sounds like Nancy Grace stuff

She's always going on and on about the "absolute certain guilt" of people who then get off, and then she blames the jury -- in essence carte blanche to make up stuff as she goes along.

I think Drobny wants his name in the paper.

[DearAbby]

23. Well being monday morning quarterbacks...keeps the case white hot

on the minds of America, That is good. I disagree, I believe Fitz is very capable, will do his job. Let the topic be kicked back and forth, keeps it on the front burner, just right where we want it.

[Straight Shooter]

25. Just what exactly is this guy's "considerable experience?

How many criminal cases has he tried? How many high-level officials has he investigated and prosecuted?

This is patently ridiculous, that someone who is not privy to the inner workings of a 2-year-old case wherein the subjects under investigation stalled and obfuscated would have the indecency to question Fitzgerald's competence.

[rzemanfl]

26. I don't think Drobny is a lawyer. This is a game of poker, Fitz

just laid down a bet, Rove and Cheney don't know what his hole cards are. This will be interesting. There are vastly more ways that Rove and Cheney can fuck up than there are that Fitzgerald can.

[mopinko]

38. not a lawyer and

i got the feeling listening to him last night on malloy that he might have a teenie, weenie axe to grind. he was talking about a case of a high dem official that was convicted in a check kiting scheme. i suspect that this was jan schakowsky's hubby, bob creamer. http://www.ipsn.org/indictments/congresswoman_%20schakowskys_husband_indicted.htm

[Zen Democrat]

27. CNN has been making clear all day that Rove may be indicted next week.

I've heard this over and over all day -- that Karl Rove still faces the possibility of indictment and that it should be decided in the next few days.

I think there is a sealed indictment ready for Rove -- that's why he's called Official A in the court papers for Libby.

Fitzgerald is a careful prosecutor and he's taking this step by step.

[Garbo 2004]

29. Perhaps Drobny should wait until Fitz has actually closes up shop.

I took what Fitz said as an illustration of why the charges are indeed serious crimes since lying and obstruction impedes an investigation into finding the truth of what happens.

He certainly wasn't going to lay out all that he had, knew, suspected and what he was still going to do in front of a national audience, as he said.

It's not over till it's over and it's not yet over. I do think people had some unrealistic expectations for the investigation, but I don't think Fitz is a funbler or compromised. I think he goes with what he can nail in court. We'll see.

[goodboy]

30. He`s jumping the gun just like a lot of people here! The investigation

into ``other matters`` I.E. CONSPIRACY is ongoing!

[madrchsod]

31. drobny?:

gee whiz he`s so smart and he knows everything about the case! he was sitting in the grand jury room every time they were in session. he sat right next to fitzgerald during these sessions and even better fitz consulted him on important technicalities in the law!!!
what an asshole.

[egadsbrain]

32. Drobny is a former IRS agent...

personally not MY favorite government agency!:hide:

from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Drobny

[Straight Shooter]

34. Oh, well, then he's *perfectly* qualified to judge Fitzgerald's actions.

Not.

[cynatnite]

36. I don't understand the slamming of Fitz...

The investigation isn't over and more charges could be coming. Libby was a major player in the WH.

This is another example of expectations being too high. I was giddy when I read the indictments and listened to the press conference.

[CatWoman]

37. see also

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5214908

[cynatnite]

39. Thanks, I remember reading that thread...

It seems like most wanted and expected rover. While it would have been nice, I think the guy gets far more credit than he deserves. He's no genius. Just a smart guy who is willing to do whatever it takes with no need for the rules of fair play.

[montana500]

40. stupid. this is why we lose elections.

We lose elections because we can't work together as a team. You always have a few who want to play the "thoughtful liberal act", going against any momentum or talking points.

[cosmicdot]

42. we've been 'losing' elections because of corruption, not free expression

and, it's not because we can't work together either ...


why marginalize or suppress expression, thought and opinion?

[zanne]

58. I'd hate to be accused of being a "thoughtful Liberal"

on DU!

[montana500]

61. the thoughtful liberal act works great when/after you get elected

And there is no question that is how one should govern IMHO.

But it's a very poor route to try when you don't have power and you are trying to win elections.

Sorry, but you need the wolf pack mentality when going upa gainst conservative media and attempting to win elections again.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. Drobny's full of crap.

[onenote]

43. with all due respect, the founder of AAR doesn't know shit

I don't care if he's tried a million "white collar" crime cases. I daresay he's never tried a case involving the outing of a classified CIA agent and I daresay he knows no more about the specific information that Fitz has acquired during his lengthy investigation than the guy who changes the oil at my local Jiffy - Lube. He can speculate all he wants, but thats all it is. Speculation. And uninformed speculation at that.

onedit: I just saw the note that Drobny isn't a lawyer. Apparently he is a former IRS agent who became a venture capitalist and made mega bucks. The fact that he has invested some of that in AAR is a good thing, but it doesn't give him a free pass to create the misleading impression that he is a legal expert (which is what he did when he wrote that he "helped prosecute and defend white collar crime offenses for 38 years". Well, I'm an attorney, and my secretary has helped me with cases, but she has the good sense not to hold herself out as an expert.


onenote

[hiabrill]

45. *

*

[hiabrill]

46. Maybe Fitz is chicken....

There's no doubt it was a softball.....

One indictment is pathetically to little.... Libby is NOT the only criminal that should have been indicted....

yes I know the investigation isn't over, but I very strongly suspect Libby is the biggest fish we get.... FITZMAS is over...!

I was extremely disappointed to hear that "most of his work has been completed"....!! Hence Fitzgerald is extremely narrow minded in his scope. Why did he even bothering pursuing the forged Niger documents..?! Why isn't he widening his scope?

His comments during the press conference shocked me most, when he said:

I’ve got plenty of other cases; I’ve got a full time job. Jack has a full time job in Phil, my full time job is in Chicago, everybody working on this case has another full time job…!


WTF....!!!!


Maybe we need a full time prosecutor on this case... Maybe Fitz needs more money to pursue this case full-time. I find Fitz flippant and probably closer to being a coward. He'll redeem him self if he issues a minimum 5 more inticments....


Ultimately, Fitz is clearly steering away from the false evidence used to justify the Iraq war, which is why I think he's chicken....

[Halliburton]

54. I agree

two years of investigating, threatening Cooper with jail only to exonerate Rove because of some flimsy email excuse?

[jayctravis]

47. (Shh...shhh...) Ahem...Why Yes, Fitzgerald Uncovered a Lot of Nothing!

(It's all going to plan...You know, the one where the WHIG relaxes, thinking it's off the hook, then SCHMACK...right into a big 'ol wall of truth. Wouldn't want to blow the mission of AAR, right?)

[hiabrill]

48. It's either that or nothing...

I'm desperately looking forward to a SCHMACK...

[TheWatcher]

49. Cowardly Hit And Run Poster Posts Usless Flame Bait.

Film At 11.

[Tennessee Gal]

50. Mr. Drobny should read this:

A Criminal Lawyer's View on Where Plamegate Stands

http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2005/10/time-to-talk-like-grown-ups.html

[Boo Boo]

57. This was a great read.

I share his views on Libby, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for him to crack. But Rove is another matter; he's got "crack" written all over him.

[Cha]

59. Brilliant..

Seth Abramson sounds absolutely brilliant!

"UPDATE: I neglected to mention that there is, in fact, an explanation for what Scooter has done which has nothing to do with covering up crimes committed by those above him on the food-chain. Specifically, one must consider the primary effect of Scooter's lies, which was, as Fitzgerald said yesterday, to delay revelation of the intricacies of the Plamegate scandal until October of 2005--instead of October of 2004. The primary effect, then, of what Scooter did was to hand Bush the Presidency of the United States, as no one can possibly doubt that had this scandal hit the public consciousness just a week or two before the November 2004 election, Bush would not have been re-elected."

Well, I'm so glad the bushits got in for four more years so they could be exposed to the world for the corrupt mass murderers they are.

[lonestarnot]

52. This is bullshit! Watergate didn't conclude overnight... believe me

this will go on for at least one year 2006 here we fucking come!

[PunkPop]

53. The way I see it

there is evidence for both views. Fitz is done and has dissapointed us all or Fitz is just getting started and the real fun is yet to come.

I am in suspended judgement mode. I guess I just don't have enough experience or knowledge in these matters to have a strong opinion.

It is fun watching the two sides go after each other's throats on this board though.

I myself wondered about the conspiracy angle, and why no charges, so I found this article interesting.

I am however quite pleased with what has happened at least to this point.

[maximovich]

63. You Wish It Would Fizzle...

NOT! Nice try though.

[progressivebydesign]

64. That's actually what I was thinking Friday, to some extent.

I'm being optimistic that more will come, becuase I don't believe that what Libby did happened in a vacuum. It was a conspiracy, and it really takes more than one to conspire.