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US policy, the AEI, and Iran (story in context)...It's Ledeen again

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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 05:56 PM
Original message
US policy, the AEI, and Iran (story in context)...It's Ledeen again
Note to Moderators: the instructions for posters say that anything "remotely related" to the CIA case should be posted in this forum. As Michael Ledeen's name keeps cropping up in the CIA case (he was at the very least, connected to several major players in the case, and further, a major proponent of the war, and because the lying to go to war is what the CIA case is REALLY about) and now he is apparently trying to take us to war with Iran as well, I feel this meets the criteria. I will defer to any judgement you make regarding this, however.

There has been much attention recently regarding the admittedly belligerent comments about Israel by Iran. Now, I find there is MUCH more to the story, and the Iranian comment came in response to an AEI (American Enterprise Institute, a neocon group) meeting, discussing the destruction of Iran as a possibility for US policy. This does not excuse the Irani comment, but it does make much more sense of it.

I am concerned that this may be another attempt by AEI to lead us into yet another a war, based on things we do not understand.

This article is posted by a pro-American, secular Irani, who is concerned about AEI's intent. Here's a link and a part of the article:
http://marzeporgohar.org/index.php?l=1&cat=20&scat=47&artid=678
(Note also that this person also accurately *predicts* the reaction of the Iranian regime.)
"Most Iranian opponents, to the Islamic regime, would have
never dreamed that AEI could host meetings that could open
a Pandora box and jeopardize the future of Iran and
Iranians. They also fear that the demagogue Islamic regime
will use the AEI's mistake to reverse the pro-American
feelings of millions of Iranians by stating: "You see, what
they did in the Balkans or in Iraq?.. Now they want to
split your country!.." Such propaganda has already started
in part of the state controlled media in Iran.

It's in reaction to the such a grave mistake and its
consequences that the dissident "Hez e Mellat e Iran"
(Iran's Nation Party) has sound the alarm in its communiqué
issued yesterday in Tehran. The 'illegal' -labeled by the
clerical regime - group which its historical leaders,
Darioush and Parvaneh Foroohar, were slaughtered in 1997 by
the Islamist security agents, has condemned strongly the
conference.

Dr. Michael Ledeen, who's the moderator of the event, is
stating that the meeting is just "to inform the Americans
on Iran's diversity" and that "no separatist subject would
be allowed in the conference". Nerveless concerns are
increasing on the future impacts of the event. Its sudden
and strange timing and especially the choice of most of its
speakers, who are separatist elements, is leading to
legitimate questions.

I do not know this person, nor this site. I cannot vouch for it's authenticity. But it seemed worth posting, to let other DUers make their own decisions.
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EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Worth looking into imho n/t
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Background in the Administration's lies and machinations to push Iran War:
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 07:11 PM by Nothing Without Hope
These are both long threads packed with information, including many articles linked to in the REPLIES. I recommend reading them entirely:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1768708
thread title: Is anyone watching Jerome Corsi saying Iran planning to nuclear-bomb {the US, presumably New York

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4252778
thread title: Three extremely important threads on Iran nukes & the Bush agenda

As with Iraq, the best intelligence - including the US's own National Intelligence Estimate - indicates that Iran is many years away from being able to make a nuclear bomb. But the neocons and the hawk fraction of the Israel Likud are stating that they have it now or will have it very soon. As with Iraq, they say that pre-emptive attack is the safe course to neutralize danger from Iran. OF COURSE Iran believes they will be attacked by the US - many US and Israeli officials have said they want to do it!

Finally, I recommend this flash animation showing the parallel signs now with Iran and before the attack on Iraq:
BUSHFLASH VIDEO - signals of coming war:
http://www.bushflash.com/signals.html

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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Just a quick and basic summary...
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 08:35 PM by Wordie
Background:
Neocons have included regime change in Iraq in their agenda for years.

(Note: it is not clear exactly which of the two events below came first; as both were presumably advertised ahead of time, it may not be relevant.)
October 26, 2005:
AEI (American Enterprise Institute - a neocon thinktank) holds meeting in which the splitting up of Iraq as a country upon ethnic and cultural lines is the major topic (Michael Ledeen is the moderator of this event).
http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.1166,filter.all,type.past/event_detail.asp

October 26, 2005:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad makes the statement to a student conference that Israel is a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map" (at a "World without Zionism" conference, on a national holiday set aside to express solidarity with the Palestinians).
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051026/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel

October 26, 2005:
Outrage is expressed by Israel, which calls for Iran's removal from the U.N., as a result of the statements by the Iranian President. Many other countries also condemn the statements.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3159945,00.html

October 27, 2005
The UN Security Council issues a statement condemning Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over his call for Israel to be "wiped off the map". The statement has been called for by Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4387206.stm
Note this very telling comment toward the end of the BBC article:
<snip>
Correspondents say the UK government does not regard Mr Ahmadinejad's stance on Israel as a new policy but more as a sign of his inexperience and the very local focus of his government.

So. The topic of the breakup of Iran at Ledeen's conference sets off outrage in Iran, leading to some extra-belligerent comments by an inexperienced leader, leading to a international furor aimed at Iran. In truth the responsibility for this incident (or series of incidents) has its roots equally in the provocative AEI conference, and Michael Ledeen, don't you think?
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks for the very helpful information. Oh yes, the Iran leader was
deliberately BAITED. I'm sure they knew he was inexperienced and hot-tempered. They got the reaction they wanted from him and are now busily hyping it into whatever fear and fury they can manage to support their lies. They want war and they will do anything to get it. I'm sure secret transborder military missions in Iran are another part of the provocation.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. hmmm a deja vu
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep. The Likudnicks in this administration and their
minions in the 'think tanks' are pushing the U.S. once again to go destroy one of their unfriendly neighbors.

Here we go again.....unless the neo-con/fundie/likudnick cabal can be exposed to the light of day for what it is.
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callady Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Michael Ledeen’s Fingers in the Niger Yellowcake
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 10:08 PM by callady
Michael Ledeen’s Fingers in the Niger Yellowcake
Tuesday October 25th 2005, 7:25 pm


Some of us, those who pay attention, have suspected for some time the fraudulent Niger yellowcake documents—so crudely slapped together as to be laughable—are tied to Michael Ledeen, the neocon’s neocon, who is connected to the neofascist Italian military intelligence agency, SISMI. Ledeen’s role in dispensing these bogus documents—a puzzle piece fitting into the larger scam used as a pretext by Bush and Crew to invade a helpless Iraq—is so well-known it has made it into the Wikipedia entry on the yellowcake forgery:

<snip>

“‘SISMI was the architect of the scandal over Billy Carter,’ and that the material in this case was gathered mostly by Pazienza and by his American friend Michael Ledeen,” Edward S. Herman and Frank Brodhead write in their book, The Rise and Fall of the Bulgarian Connection (Sheridan Square Publications, 1986). As it turns out, Francesco Pazienza “was ultimately indicted in an Italian court (with Ledeen as an unindicted co-conspirator) for luring President Carter’s brother Billy into a compromising relationship with Qaddafi during the 1980 presidential campaign,” explain Jonathan Marshall, Peter Dale Scott, and Jane Hunter (The Iran-Contra Connection: Secret Teams and Covert Operations in Reagan Era,1987). In short, Ledeen is a dirty trickster, having cavorted with fascist elements in SISMI to undermine a presidential election in the United States. (see the Wikipeadia entry on Ledeen.)

<snip>

Now we have Laura Rozen, citing a scoop from the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, telling us Nicolo Pollari, chief of the fascist SISMI, “brought the Niger yellowcake story directly to the White House after his insistent overtures had been rejected by the Central Intelligence Agency in 2001 and 2002. Sismi had reported to the CIA on October 15, 2001, that Iraq had sought yellowcake in Niger, a report it also plied on British intelligence, creating an echo that the Niger forgeries themselves purported to amplify before they were exposed as a hoax.” Pollari met with none other than Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. “Their secret meeting came at a critical moment in the White House campaign to convince Congress and the American public that war in Iraq was necessary to prevent Saddam Hussein from developing nuclear weapons…. La Repubblica also quotes a Bush administration official saying, ‘I can confirm that on September 9, 2002, General Nicolo Pollari met Stephen Hadley.’”


Meanwhile, blogger Scott Horton has called for Fitzgerald to indict Ledeen.

Horton writes:

"As far as Ledeen and the Niger uranium forgeries, explained in that the “couple of CIA agents” were paid in foreign accounts and that Fitzgerald had “already found the money trail.” Ledeen’s connections to the Office of Special Plans and Sismi are well documented, he attended a number of meetings in Italy with Harold Rhode, who “practically lived out of (Iranian spy) Ahmad Chalabi’s office,” Manucher Ghorbanifar and guilty Israeli spy Larry Franklin, around the time the Italians began passing on the (already debunked) story back to the US."

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=84


KARL ROVE, MICHAEL LEDEEN SPIES PROCURED FORGED NIGER DOCUMENTS

KARL ROVE and VARIOUS SPIES HE IS LINKED TO

Karl Rove’s only full-time foreign-policy advisor is Michael Ledeen, a rabid anti-Arab, pro-Israel activist. The FBI is investigating Ledeen for procuring forged documents (shown here) on nonexistent WMD, which George Bush used to justify his war on Iraq. When Joseph Wilson exposed the farce, Rove helped "out" Wilson’s CIA wife. Did Ledeen procure the documents for Rove, and how might he have done that? The story includes multinational stool pigeon Rocco Martino, Italian spy Francesco Pazienza, wanted CIA spy Robert Seldon Lady, and Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin, who’s under charges of giving US secrets to Israel.
Karl Rove’s foreign-policy advisor, Michael Ledeen, proclaimed "the rightness of the fascist cause" in 1972. In 1984 he got George Bush Sr to appoint Iranian arms merchant and Iranian/Israeli double-agent Manucher Ghorbanifar as a middleman in the scandalous Iran-Contra affair. Ledeen has been a fixture in Washington and Israel ever since, advocating a modern version of the Crusades against Islamic nations. Based on what he has said and written, I believe Ledeen is insane.

ROME MEETING IN DECEMBER 2001

Michael Ledeen organized a meeting in Rome to gather evidence to support the planned war. Present were:

1. Michael Ledeen, Karl Rove’s foreign policy advisor and organizer of the meeting
2. Nicolo Pollari, head of the the Italian equivalent of the CIA, the SISMI
3. Italy’s Minister of Defense, Antonio Martino (no relation apparently to the spy Rocco Martino), Pollari’s boss
4. Larry Franklin, an American who presently is being prosecuted in the US for giving classified information to an Israeli front group, AIPC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) -- which some would call "spying," even though he has not been charged with espionage
5. Harold Rhode: member of Dick Cheney’s Office of Special Plans, protege of Ledeen, go-between with Iraqi exile and CIA asset (at the time) Ahmed Chalabi.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7256
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ledeen is certainly in the thick of it...in many arenas.
Edited on Sat Oct-29-05 10:34 AM by Wordie
a person like Ledeen should NOT be having such influence on US foreign policy, whether or not he was directly involved with the forgeries (in the Iraq war lead up).

It is important that as citizens, we know what our government actually stands for, and I strongly suspect if the average citizen were aware of the philosophy of this guy, there would be quite an outcry against allowing him anywhere NEAR our policy-makers.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The more I look at this group (the Rome meeting group), the more I...
...think that they had to have been up to more than forging documents. Also, the crudeness of the forgeries still bothers me. They seem like bait--to the CIA? To get them to debunk the claim?

Why?

Then there's the SOTU speech allegation. They took so much trouble to get it in that speech (and tried to force Powell to use it, too). Was it just the orchestration of lies (with that nice echo effect from the Brits)? Or yet more bait? (Or both?)

And if these things were bait--to invite a debunking--what was the object of that scheme?

It keeps coming back to, and confirming, the WMD-planting theory of Traitorgate--that Traitorgate was a coverup of their plan to PLANT nukes (or other WMDs, but probably nukes, or nuke materials or components) in Iraq--to be "found" by Miller--a wicked scheme that was foiled--with the outing of Plame and Brewster-Jennings (especially the way they did it--in such haste, putting so many of their own at risk of treason charges), and maybe even the assassination of David Kelly as elements of the coverup (and possibly as punishment for foiling them).

If this theory is correct, then the crudeness of the Niger forgeries, and the insistence that Bush tell a baldfaced, provable lie in his SOTU speech, begin to make sense. The forgeries were meant to draw the CIA out, and the SOTU speech allegation to draw them out further, possibly with the object of getting the CIA to commit to a public position of "no nukes in Iraq," then to discredit them forever--and reap enormous political benefit--when the planted nukes were "found." (Is this why Ghorbanifar was at the Rome meeting? Technical expertise in weapons and illicit weapons movement?)

They were trying to egg the CIA to oppose them publicly--throwing ridiculous forgeries in their faces and ignoring their analysis. But the CIA isn't free to publicly oppose even the most dreadful acts (leading the country to war on manufactured lies), and many of them are not free to do that even after they retire. But, guess what? They discovered they had the next best thing--someone MARRIED to a covert CIA agent (and a WMD expert)!--someone the CIA, in responding to Cheney's request, had asked to undertake the trip to Niger--which had to be done by a knowledgeable diplomat acting on behalf of our gov't because of the nature of the inquiries (--couldn't be done covertly).

I was wondering if Cheney/Rumsfeld knew of the Plame/Wilson marriage way back then, and somehow influenced the CIA's choice. Cheney undoubtedly has boffo secret dossiers of everybody in gov't. But I think it's likely that the CIA was protecting its own, back then, and maybe he couldn't penetrate that experienced and protective bureaucracy--and only found out a bit later, to his evil delight, that he had his hook. They would completely piss off the CIA and Wilson--and then Wilson, who wasn't CIA, would go public with it. And the coup de grace would be Miller's "find" of nukes in Iraq.

Flytrap meet flytrap. Somebody in BJ's extensive network of covert eyes and ears on WMDs throughout the world spotted it, and the illicit weapons were stopped or destroyed. This is where David Kelly comes in--in the WMD-planting theory--the Brits chief WMD expert who had been whistleblowing to the BBC about the "sexed up" WMD intel (5/03). He found out about it (is the theory), and, after he was mysteriously outed to his bosses and interrogated, Blair was informed that Kelly knew (7/7/03); he alerts Bush; thence to the rushed, panicky Plame outing (7/14/03), and after Kelly's death three days after the Plame outing (7/17/03) and his computers are searched, the BJ outing (7/22/03).

Whether this theory is correct or not (or generally correct, with many details yet to be discovered and understood), it sure does give you pause about the many mysteries of Traitorgate--for instance, re the crude, laughable Niger forgeries and their true purpose. And the logic of it leaps out at you--that, OF COURSE, the Bushites would plant WMDs in Iraq, after setting Miller all up to "find" them (special "embed" contract from Rumsfeld), and priming the public! (Were they just sitting around HOPING that Miller and the US troops would find some WMDs in Iraq--WMDs they all knew weren't there, and that they had been lying about for a year? Not likely!)

(Same logic as with the 2004 election. They SET UP the capability to steal it electronically, by Bushite electronic voting corporations gaining control of the vote tabulation with SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code--and they didn't USE it to re-install Junior?!) (I mean, come on...).

----------------------


Anyway, I found the Libby "aspens" letter very disturbing reading. What I parsed in that paragraph was assurances to Miller that the covert "dirty tricks" capabilities that they had tried to use to "get" the CIA and to justify the war, are deeply rooted, and will be used at least against Iran (he mentions Iran nukes as one of the stories she should "come back to work--and life" to cover), if not Syria. And he is talking the fall--will be vacationing in jail, like she did--to protect these capabilities and their goals.*

*(The "goal" seems to me to be a frigging holocaust in the Middle East--one that will engulf us all, and destroy all life on earth, if Carl Sagan was right about the impacts of even a limited nuclear exchange--but I guess we can't rule out that the neocon/Likud cabal is just plane insane, which can happen to people who are drunk with power, and on whom there are NO "checks and balances.")

It looks to me as if Fitzgerald was facing an entrenched, stonewalling gang of mass murderers, thieves, and congenital liars, which he couldn't penetrate--a gang that includes their pet clowns and lapdogs in the corporate news media--and got his first break when Miller started cracking (in jail), and the cabal had to come up with a plan. The plan was either Libby falling on his sword (which his letter to Miller seems to suggest) or being thrown to the wolves (perhaps with promise of full legal support, Rove's P.R. services and future benefits).

Although the prime movers of this junta are the war profiteers (including Cheney), some of the neocons are rabid true-believers (who, in my view, are just the window dressing for the looters--and, also, are good at creating the chaos that makes looting so easy). (Remember, Rumsfeld: freedom = the freedom to loot.) So it's possible that Libby thinks of himself as a hero, sacrificing for the cause.

The question--as to this prosecution--is whether or not Fitzgerald can use this opportunity, this small crack in the stonewall (his slamdunk against Libby) to get at the larger conspiracy (which his indictment clearly points to, for all its careful legal framing). These are not petty gangsters, or even big gangsters. They are the most powerful criminals on earth--guilty of multiple hanging offenses just on the things we can see; and being protected by the corporate news monopolies. It's a tall order; and, while I think Fitzgerald is a formidable prosecutor and an extraordinarily intelligent man, and while I think that the majority of Americans desperately want this cabal to be busted, it's touch and go.

-----------------

Understanding the true believers

The underlying belief of the neocons is that western civilization must rally to destroy a new Islamic caliphate. This ancient itch to slaughter Arabs, steal their land and control their resources, has returned, in history's spiral, from a time that is so dark we have almost no written records of the doings of Europeans. And the neocons are quite blatant about it: they are on a "Crusade." To them--and to the rightwing minority that buys into this underlying belief (whether consciously or unconsciously)--there is NOTHING--no law, no ethical principle, no moral constraint--that they will not violate in pursuit of the salvation of western civilization (as they see it). That is why they and those who work for them, or are in their thrall, tell such egregious lies with a straight face, and commit such awful atrocities without batting an eyelid.

There may be some truth to an east-west conflict of this kind--especially as to the intent of the Islamic jihadists and some of the mullahs--but I personally think that it is critically important to understand what that intent derives from: poverty and devastation, brought about by western INTERFERENCE with the development and modernization of the Islamic countries (for instance, our destruction of Iranian democracy and installation of the horrible Shah; or our centuries of meddling in Afghanistan). Virtually the only wealth in the Islamic world, certainly in the Mideast, is oil, and the wealth from that is being horded by the rich, and it is running out. And what they will be left with is a vast desert--once the "cradle" of OUR civilization and the epitome of our wanton destruction of forests and the fertility of the land.

For the neocons, this war on Iraq was not just a pre-emptive strike on Iraq--it was a pre-emptive strike on a potential Islamic caliphate, in defense of western civilization. But in striking at an as yet non-existent caliphate, they are striking at the people themselves, who have every right to develop their countries and their alliances as they see fit, and are only in the very early stages of recovering from centuries and centuries of exploitation and bad rulers.

Strike one against the neocons: They simply do not understand that there is a democracy movement in Iran. They have no respect for it, and no wish to further it. It is Islamic and therefore must be destroyed, and replaced with yet another imposition of western-chosen surrogate rulers who will erode and demolish the local development that Islamic communities can accomplish. They further had no understanding of the strong civil society in Iraq, despite its ruler's mad war on Iran and then Kuwait--and they did everything they could to demolish this civil society the minute they set foot in Iraq. It was the most highly developed and successful in the Middle East.

Worst of all, though, the neocon agenda isn't pure. It is sullied through and through with war profiteering. If it were pure--a political idea that could be democratically disclosed and discussed--then we might come up with some better solutions than slaughtering Arabs and Muslims, torturing them, stealing their resources, and imposing surrogate rulers on them once again--a project that is CREATING inflamed jihad against the west, and threatening us all with nuclear holocaust.

Libby seems to think this is just fine. He'll take a hit for his cause, and the neocon project will go on. He may feel self-righteous, but he is undoubtedly caught in a web of self-deceptions that even he can't sort out any more--lies that go very deep; that he is saving democracy (by destroying it); that he is giving them democracy (via killing and torture); that our god is superior to theirs; that we have a right to their oil; that the rest of us are stupid peons who can't understand this millenium-old imperative that 'we' must 'win' (conquer the Infidel, seize his property, prevent his triumph--the 'Infidel" being babies and old people and other innocents, and vast populations of the poor, who get in the way of our self-image as 'Crusaders').

Maybe we should write him letters, saying, "Scooter, you really blew it. Better take stock of yourself. Think a couple of things through. You know that whatever support you have is artificially created--by Karl Rove and the controlled media. People are NOT flocking to your cause. Why? Because our democracy is actually still working, and people are pretty smart and wise, and know a con when they see one. They know that western civilization is in more danger from YOU than from any caliphate. You lost PERSPECTIVE, buddy, and you better wake up to the consequences, pronto!"

He's been a devious operative for war profiteers for a long time, so he might be too corrupt to understand the truth about himself. In either case, though, he must be asking himself: Does he want to spend 30 years (or even 5 to 10 years) in jail for a cause that almost nobody supports, or for the war profiteers who will be living it up with the billions and billions and billions of dollars that he helped them loot from the American people--while he rots in prison?

His is a dark world, I think--with no clear answers at the moment. He may have concerns about life and limb (and family).

Whether Padre Fitzgerald can get through to this sinner, help him untangle this web of lies, and find his way to the light, is the iffy proposition upon which may depend the future of the human race.

Stay tuned.

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callady Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Go here for an excellent time line.
Edited on Sat Oct-29-05 02:00 PM by callady
http://www.newsfollowup.com/leakgate1.htm

Maybe a little too cluttered but as you already see the many connections it may be of interest to you.

Larry Franklin

One need only read and re-read the front page of yes even the paper of record NY Times on March 8, 1992 (Maybe March 10) and see the leaked White Paper as architected (sic?) by Paul Wolfowitz.

Defense Policy Guidance the sire of Rebuilding Americas Defenses.

War profiteering as you so aptly point out is in and of itself a huge aspect in all of this and in many ways stands on its own.

Clearing out the entire Middle East as any "good" developer would. Clear away the detritus.
Clearcut an entire culture.

The indictment of Libby is small potato's.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. PP, Am I missing something as I think Libby will assume pardons are in his
future and remain silent. I keep reading that the thought of serving a long sentence will have him spilling the beans, I think we will remain silent, take the fall, be pardoned and willserve the PNAC agenda from the shadowy sidelines. I hope I am the one wrong, here.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. kick
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