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lancemurdoch Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 09:59 AM
Original message
I am a socialist
I believe in the maxim "from each according to ability, to each according to WORK". In other words, I think a worker should be able to keep the wealth he produces. I suppose in modern USA this is a radical idea, that someone should be able to keep the wealth he produces. When I watch the television channel the government lets General Electric use, NBC, or other corporate-controlled portions of the VHF or UHF bands, they usually say over and over again thet "socialism = big government", always trying to equate the two. Well for one thing, I am not a rentier, meaning I do not own any property I rent out, and I do not in a real sense own any capital, e.g. I do not get dividends from stocks, or interest from bonds (actually I do get a very small amount of interest from my checking account, but it is so negligible it can be ignored). But not being a rentier, means I do not own any rentier assets, thus in a sense whether the government controls corporations or whether it's in private hands means little to me, as it would be alien to me either way - actually somewhat less alien if government controlled it actually. But anyhow, I don't see workers controlling the means of production as necessarily needing government.

I do see as a long-term goal socialism, which basically boils down to in my mind "a worker being able to keep the wealth that he himself creates". I think unions are a good tool of getting this, the best actually. There is a tug-of-war between the workers creating the wealth and the idle class owners over which amount of money goes to wages and which goes to profits, and I think the leverage of organized workers helps tilt that towards the workers, so less goes to profits. I hope to see the day when all goes to wages and no surplus labor, or profits, goes to rentiers. I am less thrilled about political parties, whose main function I see as keeping the government from interfering with labor unions, and perhaps some other things. I see political parties as more or less guards trying to stave off the other side from sacking our side, but little more than that. Anyhow, I definitely give political parties secondary importance to other types of organizing.

As to political parties - I often vote for Democrats, although if someone like Lieberman was elected I would vote Green, to show that the party had moved too far to the right and thus had lost an actual voter because of this. As far as the candidates, Kucinich and Sharpton I like but realize are unrealistic. Gephardt has always been pro-labor so I am behind him. Dean I go back and forth in my mind about...sometimes I have a feeling I'd regret voting for him more than anyone. Kerry and Clark I probably wouldn't vote for, and there is absolutely no way I would ever vote for Lieberman ever.

I am proud to be a socialist and don't try to hide it. I do find people have irrational attitudes about it on the magnitude level of another particularly American school of irrationality within industrialized countries - that of religion. Personally, I think any system aside from one where workers get to keep the wealth they create as parasitic, and the attitudes of many people I meet nowadays sycophantic.
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Paschall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Uh, isn't the maxim...
"From each according to ability, to each according to need"? And wasn't that adopted by the communists rather than the socialists? In any case, it implies income redistribution (taxes and government spending), something that may not fit your "worker keeps the wealth he produces" script.
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lancemurdoch Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. no
From each according to ability, to each according to need is a communist maxim, not a socialist one. I might as well quote some Republican maxim and imply that that is what the Democrats are after.

This is a classic case of misdirection, I say something about socialism, and you want to turn it into something about communism. From what I understand, there is no taxes or government within communism anyway, so your idea would be wrong there as well.
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Paschall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well, then can you please cite a socialist source...
...for what you're calling a socialist maxim?

You've obviously modified a communist maxim for your own purposes. Isn't that "misdirection"? Or am I mistaken? I don't know of any existing Socialist party that adheres to your "maxim." Or can you cite one?
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lancemurdoch Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. well one...
...from a self-proclaimed socialist country would be from the constitution of the USSR. We have seen a Marxist-Leninist self-proclaimed socialist country previously, but as I said before, this is not the only way socialism can manifest itself, if I'd even concede that the USSR was socialist at all.

http://www.thisnation.com/library/ussr.html


The Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
<...>
Article 14
<...>
(2) The state exercises control over the measure of labor and of consumption in accordance with the principle of socialism: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his work". It fixes the rate of taxation on taxable income.
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Paschall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I said "existing Socialist party"
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 10:46 AM by Paschall
The Constitution of the People's Republic of China also uses the same expression. So are we really talking about socialism or communism after all?

But even your quote from the constitution of the USSR shows that workers did not "keep the wealth they produced." It was indeed taxed, huh?
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. This is a Stalinist Formulation
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 11:13 AM by durutti
See: http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Other/Trotsky/Archive/1936-Rev/ch10.htm

That said, socialists don't advocate paying everyone the same or demanding people share tooth brushes. Socialism, simply put, is economic democracy. Communism is the classless, stateless, moneyless, property-less society that socialism is supposed to eventually acheive.
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Paschall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thanks for the information
Edited on Sun Oct-12-03 11:44 AM by Paschall
And as it stands today, I believe all modern Socialist parties (meaning primarily those in Europe) have dropped a lot of the old communist dogma ("revolution of the proletariat," "worker owned means of production," etc.).

What a lot of Americans view as "Euro-socialism" is what Europeans consider economic solidarity, according to Marx's original formulation: Those in need deserve support from the community (or as we say in French "la collectivité").

While I have absolutely no problems with the original poster's remarks about unions, his comments about workers keeping the wealth they produce sounds much more like anarcho-capitalism because it seems to fly in the face of this moral obligation to economic solidarity.

That being said, I do support the idea of eating the rich. But I'll pass on the Rush Limbaughburgers, thanks! :evilgrin:
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oxycontinrush Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. wrong, Stalinism is something completely different
more like 'from each according to what Stalin says, to Stalin because Stalin says so, and if you don't like it, you can go to Siberia to re-educate yourself... or we can shoot you."

Stalinism was totalitarianism masquerading as communism.

You can't quote Trotsky and claim that was Stalinism. Stalin had Trotsky assassinated because they disagreed so much.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Trotsky was heir to the legacy of Marx
Unlike Stalin.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. hmmm
:eyes:
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leftyandproud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. sorry to burst your bubble..
but if you eliminate profit, there will be NO JOBS outside of government.
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scisyhp Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. Wrong. Workers can be self-employed,
members of a workers co-op or work for a non-profit entity - all
profit-free.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. I am a socialist

And you're not.

It's that simple.

I don't go around calling myself an 18th century liberal, so I'm damned if I know why you would want to be calling yourself a socialist.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Marx himself used the terms
socialism and communism interchangeable...
Communism is usually applied to the philosophy and theories of declared Communist parties...socialism was adopted by a term to distinguish moderate non-revolution doctrines.
Ergo why socialists support trade unions whereas Communists tend to hate them as a 'tool' of capitalist co-option and that is why Communists have traditionally infiltrated them to turn them into 'tools' of communist enlightenment and IMHO destroyed many from turning them into little more than conduits for funding and Comintern propaganda...
It really is only in the US that there is confusion between these two terms..
Comes from the McCarthy era, when even academics were a afraid of being labelled socialist and went to so far as to 'make-up' words to avoid the attacks. A non-word like 'societal', for instance

Next lecture:
Why there is no conservatism, by definition, in the US
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Not Exactly
In Marxist thought, communism is a form of socialism, but not necessarily vice versa.

Socialism is the bridge between capitalism and communism. Under socialism, the dictatorship of the proletariat is established, and private property is abolished. Once there's plenty for everyone, the idea is that there will be no more classes, and the state will disappear.

Only ultraleftist socialists have opposed unions. The attitude commonly adapted has been one of critical support. Communists have always been at the forefront of the fight for union democracy.

The communists didn't destroy unions. In fact, they were battling racism, sexism, and the like within the labor movement. The labor movement has rather been destroyed by the class collaborators who lead it.
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oxycontinrush Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. No... there are NO dictatorships in communism
In true communism, everyone is equal and everyone has an equal voice.

You can call true communism "utopian" and probably not possible considering human nature, but it is does not involve dictatorships.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Did you even bother reading his post before you object to what he says?
He expressly did NOT say that there were dictatorships in communism. He said, "Under socialism, the dictatorship of the proletariat is established..." then, after the stage of communism has been reached, "the state will disappear."

His post was only 4 sentences long. You're a tad too quick on the trigger, IMO... :eyes:
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oxycontinrush Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. You do not have to have a transitional period as he states
Since we are discussing theory, if a group of people to decide right now within a certain geographic boundary that property and class no longer exist, they would no longer exist. Period. No transitional period. Whatever group of people that decided to could be communist, libertarian, or whatever on a moment's notice. There is no need for some form of transitional "state."

I point this out boldly because of the false assertion that the old Soviet Union, the Warsaw Pact Nations, and China were communist. They were never communist or socialist. They were totalitatian dictatorships where ALL power and property was commanded by a supreme leader with a spin by these supreme leaders that it was a form of Communism.
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Overkil Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. I hear the rich taste yummy
Lancemurdoch,

My dad grew up in a very poor family (6 people in a two bedroom house). Put himself through college (athletic scholarship) and became an civil engineer. Worked hard, became a partner in the firm but wanted more. Saved about six months woth of income and started his own firm. NO SBA loans - did it on his own. Business is now 25 yrs old & very successful. He makes about $500k/yr.

Under your ...."from each according to ability, to each according to WORK. In other words, I think a worker should be able to keep the wealth he produces."..... how much of his $500k/yr how much would he be able to keep or would he be exempt from the theory? He pays about $250k/yr in personal income tax right now.

Paschall....since you support eating the rich I'll ask my dad if he has a limb he can spare.....for a price :)
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. Doubt it
how much of his $500k/yr how much would he be able to keep or would he be exempt from the theory? He pays about $250k/yr in personal income tax right now.

Given that the top income bracket is no where near 50%, I doubt that very much.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm also a socialist
I consider myself an unorthodox Trotskyist.
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oxycontinrush Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Then re-read your Trotsky
You don't even know your terminology very well.

Trotsky invisioned the sort of utopian classless society in which all property belonged to the people that probably isn't possible. He did not envision everything and everyone become a slave to a totalitarian state bureaucracy as Stalin created in the Soviet Union.

The world has NEVER had a real communist nation.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. "Communist Nation" is an Oxymoron
Communism is supposed to be stateless.

I've been involved with socialist groups for years. I think I know what I'm talking about.
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oxycontinrush Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Not in a world where what is within a boundary is called a nation
You're arguing pointless semantics.

Agreed, if there agree there is an imaginary planet called Marxworld somewhere where there is communism and only communism as a form of government, then you would have national boundaries dissolve, etc. However, as long as there are different places on a world map that use different forms of govenment, there will be national boundaries, and what is inside those boundaries will be called nations. What form of government is inside those boundaries is irrevalent. Is Somalia a nation even though there is no operating national government? Yep, and they have a seat at the United Nations, too.

My point was there has never been operating stucture on this planet within any set of geographic boundaries that has actually attempted to operate according to the principles of communism.
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-03 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. You'll fit in well with the hordes of Idealists on DU.
Welcome!
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don jose Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. so workers should keep the wealth they produce?
but isnt it through the efforts of those who set up buisness that their workers are able to create wealth in the first place?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I've always been told that the cart pushes the horses as well.
I guess we'll have to set the record straight.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. Kick. Because nothing angers up the blood like Socialism/Communinsm
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