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Bush to pardon 22 indictees (& himself) ?

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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:26 PM
Original message
Bush to pardon 22 indictees (& himself) ?
debate at the coffee shop this morning. What happens if the 22 are indicted - does Bush fire Fitzgerald? What does the Attorney General do? Does Bush try to pardon the indictees and himself?
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Like father, like son -- just like Iran-Contra, he'll pardon 'em
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Remind me
who he pardoned in Iran Contra? I wasn't paying a lot of attention. I need a history lesson!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Casper Weinberger and five others
Besides him, Elliott Abrams, Robert McFarlane, Duane Clarridge, Alan Fiers, and Clair George
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Here's that info for you......
Bush's last controversial act in office was his pardon of six former government employees implicated in the Iran-Contra scandal on December 24, 1992, most prominently former Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger. Bush pardoned Duane R. Clarridge, Clair E. George, Robert C. McFarlane, Elliott Abrams, and Alan G. Fiers Jr., all of whom had been indicted and/or convicted of charges by the Independent Counsel.
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. ah yes the Christmas Eve pardon
surely you saw that in your newspaper on Christmas Day.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. All the big players except Reagan & himself. Don't remember the
names myself, but most of the people around * are those involved in all the illegal activities of Reagan/Bush.
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. If you pardon everybody that can implicate you,
you basically pardoned yourself.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger was one
Washington -- President Bush December 24 granted pardons to former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger and five other individuals for their conduct related to the Iran-Contra affair. Bush said Weinberger - who had been scheduled to go on trial in Washington January 5 on charges related to Iran-Contra - was a "true American patriot"... The president also pardoned five other persons who already had pleaded guilty or had been indicted or convicted in connection with the Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages investigation. They were Elliott Abrams, a former assistant secretary of state for Inter-American affairs; former National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane; and Duane Clarridge, Alan Fiers, and Clair George, all former employees of the Central Intelligence Agency...
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Bush Sr pardoned Casper Weinberger
for things that occurred during the *previous* administration.

It would be an entirely different matter if Chimp pardoned people who committed crimes in *his own* administration.

Many would blur the distinction, but I assure you Congress and the public will not. They were very uncomfortable with the Bush Sr. pardons. If Chimp pardons his own people, there will be a nationwide cry for an end to Chimp and a lawless administration.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Can he pardon someone who has not yet been convicted?
:shrug:
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Bunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Ask Gerald Ford.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I guess we may never hear the convictions?
but at the coffee shop this person said they Grand Jury had met and but indicted 22 Bush was to pardon straight away. I'm not sure where they got that info from as there is so much going around inside the beltway.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. His daddy did
So he can, too.

His Daddy only pardoned six criminals, so Bush will even get to beat his daddy at that.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not gonna pardon anyone right away
First of all, he's not going to "pardon" himself because he isn't going to be indicted. You can bet the world on that.

Second, whether there is one indictee or 22, he's not going to pardon anyone at this stage. Pardoning them now would create a political firestorm that the repugs couldn't withstand, both in terms of subverting the judicial process and in terms of implying that everyone's guilty.

If -- and its an enormous if -- trials are held and convictions are obtained -- before he leaves office, he might pardon folks as he walks out the door (i.e. after the 2008 elections). Not a minute sooner.

onenote
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. they are not frightenend of political firestorms
basically they don't fear the Democrats and think they may say - "Oh well" just like before the Iraq war?
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. I think that they very much fear the situation.
Pardons likely would turn the whole thing upside-down for them. These guys are not stupid. They know unequivocally that pardoning themselves would indeed create a firestorm.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. if by "They" you mean the WH, maybe. But Repugs on the Hill
are scared shitless about keeping their jobs, let alone their majority and they will put enormous pressure on the WH not to do anything to create a firestorm before election day. Bank on it.

onenote
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i_c_a_White_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. I agree with you n/t
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:31 PM
Original message
That is a certainty
Nothing "bad" will ever happen to anyone indicted. Dubya will take care of everything.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Now we know why he's been saving his pardon quota up.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. has he got 22 (23) left?
I wonder?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. there is no limit on the number of pardons a prez can issue
but he's not pardoning anyone right away...

onenote
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. If Bush was indicted could he pardon himself though?
The POTUS can be indicted but pardoning himself hmmmm?
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Constitution puts no limit on Presidential pardon.
But....

Chimp: "I pardon myself."

Congress: "You're impeached."
Senate: "You're history."
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. so if he pardons himself Congress won't dare to impeach him?
however, the GOP are spilting at the seams at the moment
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I don't understand.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 05:01 PM by longship
if he pardons himself Congress won't dare to impeach him?

I do not know how you come to this conclusion.

My opinion is precisely the opposite of this. If he pardons now he will be in big, big trouble for it. Abuse of power and all that.

Is your opinion different? If so, that's cool. We'll have to see what happens. Any way you put it, pardons would be bad news all around.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Bush can't be indicted
The Office of Legislative Counsel of the Department of Justice has opined on this twice, once in 1973 (when Nixon was prez) and again in 2000 (while Clinton was prez). I know its just an opinion of the OLC to the Attorney General but I guarantee that no prosecutor is going to go against that opinion.

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/sitting_president.htm

onenote
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Procedurally, impeachment and pardon
are distinct. The Congress' power to impeach and try is completely independent of the president's ability to pardon. So, yes, while Bush can absolutely free himself from any criminal penalties via the pardon, the Congress still retains the authority under the Constitution to remove him from office.

That's my understanding of it, anyway.
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
21. And then Jebthro will hire them all into his admin when he is prez
just like Jr. hired all of his Poppy's pardonees.

Now what would happen if Hillary Clinton became prez and hired everyone that Bill pardoned ?
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
22. Poppy did, but it helped him have even lower poll numbers
I guess the Sprog has to beat out his old man at everything, even being the worst (as if he hadn't already).
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. Delete.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-05 05:04 PM by Xap
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
30. and now Plame intends to sue WH officials
this is really getting juicy
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I hope they win mega millions. The only thing
these crooks know is $$$$$$.
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StefanX Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
32. Go ahead, pardon 'em all Georgie
You'll go down as the first president in history who was PRO-TREASON.

Then maybe Ann Coulter can write a book about you.

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