Presidential Pardons?

[insanity]

If Libby, Rove, or anyone in the admin. is indicted, I'm sure the paper work has already been completed for their subsequent padons and promitions. If this happens, we better be ready to release the shit storm of the century.

[DoYouEverWonder]

1. No sitting president

has been stupid enough to try such a thing. You don't pardon your own people. Not that Bush wouldn't try, but he's not going to get away with shit anymore. Not once the indictments come down.

[Walt Starr]

2. Poppy bush did.

He pardoned Cap Weinberger to keep him from singing like a canary.

[longship]

8. Entirely different circumstances.

Nobody was investigating Bush Sr. The investigation was one left over from the previous presidency. We might want to wish that Bush Sr. was involved, but the investigation was not going that way. Thus, the Bush Sr. pardons were in a grey area and he was given the benefit of the doubt.

This clearly would *not* be the case here. Chimp's own WH is under investigation for high crimes and misdemeanors. Chimp himself may be implicated. This is not a grey area. Pardons would be impeachable as an abuse of power.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. People weren't paying attention then

They didn't have 24 hour news and instant Internet access. It was much easier to get away with stuff then. Plus Poppy only did it once and discretely.

Besides, Bush can't sneeze at this point without the whole blogsphere going nuts. I'm just glad the neocons never really grokked computers.

[bryant69]

3. unlikely

Not impossible; Ford Pardoned Nixon, after all. But I think the clear political move would be to dump libby and rove like hot potatoes (with a lot of platitudes about how corruption will not be tolerated in a Bush administration).

[insanity]

5. I disagree

Because Bush would loose either way. He would probally have a better chance with Rove though.

[longship]

4. Presidential Pardons == Presidential Impeachment

People do not like the presidential pardon. It has been abused so much over its history that the public just does not like it. That's why presidents wait until their last possible day of office to invoke it.

If Chimp tries to escape accountability by using the pardon, he will bring down the roof on himself. People will not like it. Congress will not like it. It's a clear abuse of power. There would be impeachment talk very quickly.

I would think that his advisors would be telling him this. If he does it anyway, he will reap the whirlwind.

[LondonReign2]

7. Impeachment "talk" perhaps

but not from the Rethugs in the House. Should Chimpy pardon anyone, the Repub Congress could conceivably get ridden out on a rail, but they will never, ever impeach.

Further, I suspect the Misadministration can use delaying tactics to push the need to pardon until after the 2006 elections, reducing them impact as much as possible.

Indictments should still whack the Rethugs enough for the Democrats to make gains (barring large scale Diebolding)in the mid-terms, but talk of impeachment is a pipedream--there are no (or damn few) honest Rupugs left.

[longship]

12. Irrelevant and not entirely correct

Under the current political environment would *you* risk impeachment by doing something so patently brazen?

There are plenty of honest repugs who would turn on Chimp. They want to get reelected and there would be screams from all quarters for accountability on this.

On the evening of the Saturday Night Massacre, 32 years and one day ago, 50,000 telegrams hit Congress asking for Nixon's impeachment. A similar outcry would happen if Chimp is stupid enough to pardon his own people.

[electropop]

21. 50,000 Telegrams

Imagine how that would be amplified by the internets. It would bring down the government servers by the sheer volume.

[LondonReign2]

25. How is my statement irrelevent?

"not entirely correct" is strictly a matter of opinion at this point until we see first what Fitzgerald does, then what Chimpy does, then what Congress does. And I'll bet you even money whatever amount you'd like that a Rethug lead House will NEVER impeach the Chimp

Tell me how it is irrelevent, however? Are you saying "the will of the people" by itself can force an impeachment hearing? If, so I'm will to take that bet too.

[electropop]

20. I think already the Pukes in Congress see Bushitler as a drag on them.

Combined with the ethical/legal breakdown of their leadership, they will soon find it politically impossible to keep him around. He'll be out by August 2006.

[LondonReign2]

27. Again, I'll take whatever bet you'd like to place

that a Rethug lead House will NEVER impeach the Chimp.

I think people are underestimating the ability of the reich wing to spin, delay, and cloud the issue.

Someone is going down, but it won't be the Chimp through impeachment, sadly.

[longship]

30. We'll have to see about that.

I think there's a good chance that they will do precisely that.

I don't bet. But if I did, that's where my money would be.

[LondonReign2]

36. The GOP gains nothing through impeachment

If Chimpy is so damaged in this that impeachment demanded it helps the GOP not one whit to actually impeach. They will have already lost all independents and a portion of conservatives at that point. Impeachment proceeding will not help them "regain respectability" for doing the right thing, they will only infuriate the true believers and erode support of the basest of their base.

[Jawja]

15. Yes, it stunk to

high heaven when Nixon pardoned Jimmy Hoffa. I remember that was a really big deal at the time.

[PATRICK]

19. We know, THEY know

Watch the attempt which might seem inexplicably odd, to tailor these events so that pardons MIGHT be something they could get away with even with a minority acceptance of the spin.

I am certain there will be big attempts to pave the way for the easy way out and especially to see if the those who talk big will in the end simply let them get away with it. IF Bush survives and gets enbough of his papointments and agenda done anyway, pardons can come at the tail end of his term with relative impunity. War. Some other pretext or just the wearing down of the misinformed public.

You have to (shudder) think like they do unless you want to be surprised again, by what they dare to do.

Reaping the whirlwind. Really? Have they ever so that they should really be that afraid not to take their only way out? Presume nothing unless you have the big guns really locked and loaded.

[maine_raptor]

6. I could see it happening

He's not running again. He could give a speech saying that these two were acting in the best interests of the country, had to keep America together at time of war, blah, blah.

BUT, he would not dare do it or even hint about it until AFTER the 2006 elections, otherwise an impeachment move, even by RW Congress critters, would be in the offing.

[longship]

14. This is more sensible thinking.

But after 2006, with a Dem Congress, pardons then would quickly bring on impeachment. No. Pardons are the job of the next president, not Chimp.

[maine_raptor]

17. I agree, but

If the Dems do not control Congress, it would take support of RW Congress to bring it about. While there are some "honest hearted" RW critters in the House and Senate, it would be a slow motion build to impeachment if Bush did a pardon and couched the crimes as "well meaning, but wrong". I guess it would depend on the effectiveness of the spin campaign that BushCo put on it verses the outrage throughout the land.

I doubt that the President elected in 2008 would pardon, not his mess, so to speak.

[H2O Man]

10. Won't happen.

Bush is in no position to pardon anyone. It's the exact opposite of what he has to do.

[maximovich]

11. I'm Enjoying this Chess Game

I haven't felt this hopeful in 5 years.

[Beetwasher]

13. Can You Extrapoloate on This A Bit More, Please?

I've seen numerous conflicting theories on the possibility of presidential pardon's and would definitely appreciate your input on the subject! Thanks!

[longship]

18. He has the power to do it.

The constitutional power of pardon is unlimited. He probably even has the power to pardon himself.

However, to use the power of the pardon to escape accountability of criminal activity in one's own WH is clearly an obstruction of justice and a flagrant abuse of power. It's *never* been done before for that reason. (NO. Bush Sr. did not do it.)

The Republicans will not like this because they know that if Chimp is allowed to get away with it the Dems could use it against them in subsequent administrations. These guys are not all stupid. They will turn on Chimp if he pardons.

IMHO, Chimp using the pardon here will result in a fairly rapid resolution of inquiry in the House, followed by hearings and adoption of articles of impeachment. These will pass. The more conservative (in the real sense) Senate might not have any problems convicting on this issue.

[Beetwasher]

23. So It's Really Just A Matter of the Fear Of Possible Reprisals

In which case, I don't think we can completely rule out the scenario of pardons. I think they may be unlikely for the reasons you mentioned, but I can also see the arrogant bastard doing it anyway.

[gkhouston]

26. I can see him being foolish enough to do it. I can't see him

escaping the negative consequences of having done so. He is still in the "but I'm the President!" mindset and does not understand that his own party has slipped from his grasp and will turn on him, viciously, with the slightest provocation. Part of that viciousness will be payback for the way this administration has governed for the past 5 years. Amazing isn't, how far downhill this administration has slid in the last several months? They were swaggering around like overlords of the universe less than a year ago and now they're on the verge of losing everything.

[longship]

28. I agree with this.

But I *hope* that he does not pardon. It would not be a good situation for our country to be in. There could be international repercussions. The whole world would know that Chimp has a lawless administration with a Get Out of Jail Free card.

Not good all around. I fear for us if he tries pardons.

[Beetwasher]

31. No Doubt, I Fear It Too, But He's Just The Type To Try It

It does fit his M.O., that's what's scary. He does whatever the fuck he wants, consequences be damned! Consequences are for lackeys to deal with. His messes are for OTHERS to clean up, he doesn't care. He would do it just because he can and just to be vicious and vindictive and just to say "See, you can't touch me or my friends!"

[H2O Man]

34. Think of his

statement about "background noise" yesterday. The guy is not brimming with confidence right now. Like any loud-mouthed bully who has never been in a fight himself, Bush sees Fitzgerald stripping his boys from beside him. He has gone to the safety zone of "dad" now. Not just his father, but his father's friends.

The people who can offer advice that counts now are people who are trying to focus George on survival, not confrontation. Pardons could ONLY be a possibility if he were in his very last days. Rather than looking at Bush1 in the Iran-Contra, consider Nixon's circumstance. A number of people were promised pardons. But Nixon was there to survive. So he ruled out pardons, because to have pardoned anyone in the middle of his term would have created an increase in the confrontation. Nixon stretched out his stay by using survival tactics.

Don't forget that we have Plame and the neocon/AIPAC scandal. George is scared right now. Though he often says stupid things, Bush rarely appears as lost and stupid as yesterday. His administration has been destabilized. It takes a powerful enemy to destabilize an administration that was relatively popular a year ago.

[gkhouston]

37. and the sweet thing is, Bush has not the first clue as to how

he's going to regain stability. If human beings weren't lab rats in this experiment, I'd be delighted.

[gkhouston]

32. well, I think the whole world has already tumbled to the fact

that he has a lawless administration. What the world doesn't have a good feel for is what the average American thinks of the situation. I, too, hope he won't use pardons, because then things will get Really Ugly. I wish he'd simply resign, as Nixon did, but I don't think he's as functional as Nixon was, and Nixon was batshit-crazy depending on which way the wind was blowing.

[H2O Man]

35. Use the Nixon model.

I don't think he is near to resigning, but the over-all model fits the visible administration quite well.

[Pithy Cherub]

16. The last days of a term in office is the time for presidential pardons.

Bush would endanger anybody with a (R) for the next few election cycles. Since bush would give pardons at the end of his sentence - oops, term, Fitzgerald would be well into trials.

The BIGGEST DANGER is if Congress tries to do an investigation. Please read Lawrence Walsh's book, Firewall, on Iran Contra and how the congressional republicans (Bob Dole, majority leader) granted immunity in exchange for testimony. That really screwed up Lawrence Walsh's case. That is the level of republican malfeasance that needs to be prepared for.x(

[Seansky]

22. the problem I see for * to actually pardon anyone is that he boxed himself

with the "anyone in the admin that did something illegal would no longer work in this admin sh*t, and his own base will continue to split if he does pardon indicted people...this will cost them so much that the ratings might go down to the single digits...Remember the report that came out this week about the biggest drop in his support came from the Southern Evangelical people. Well, the more educated RW will probably be next if he pardons the indicted (no offense to SE, necessarily)

TreeWind

[peace frog]

24. Junior will pardon without hesitation

as long as the accused remain "loyal" and do not implicate him in any wrongdoing. Count on it.

[hyphenate]

29. Oh I'm sure

that the requests are in from all over the place. Delay, Frist, Lay, Skilling, and hopefully Rove, Cheney, Libby, and far, far more.

However, if the troglodyte is out of office himself, there ain't no way he'll be able to issue pardons! Let's just keep this in mind and keep ripping them out of power.

[peace frog]

33. I hope you're right

but I suspect Junior is more than happy to throw "the help" to the wolves as long as his hands remain clean. Numerous reports have stated that Cheney and Bush very carefully insulated themselves against direct implication by using layers of underlings to anonymously do their dirty work. I'm going to assume for now that said minions are willing to throw themselves on their swords and/or point fingers at other underlings... but not the boss, never the little prince.