Imagine a society where no one hit their child and violence was non

[Quixote1818]

existent. Now imagine you live in this peaceful society and you are walking down the mall and someones child is acting up and you see them strike the child's behind. :spank: Suddenly everyone in the mall would look over at the parent who is striking the child in horror!:wow:

Spanking would seem really bizarre then wouldn't it?

Society's mold our values and I believe that our and most world society's have a LOT to learn about ending violence and teaching children how NOT to solve problems with physical force.

Spanking seems OK because it's so much a part of life and we have seen it so often on TV or at home or at friends homes. We have become numb to how truly bizarre spanking is.

Does anyone know of any society's that do not allow spanking or physical force to discipline children? If so what are they like? How does that society deal with problems?

[William769]

1. Alice in Wonderland comes to mind.

[bluedawg12]

2. 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishmen

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT OF CHILDREN
SPANKING: ALL POINTS OF VIEW

>The Department of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine estimate that 1,000 to 2,000 children die every year in the U.S. from corporal punishment that has escalated to a lethal level. They estimate that 142,000 are seriously injured annually. 1<

[Reciprocity]

3. Planet Vulcan

Planet Vulcan is 16 light-years from Earth, located roughly in the same region as Betazed, Andor, Tellar and Alpha Centauri

[bonito]

4. bet they

Don't have santa, tooth fairy or the easter bunny ether, boy, we are really screwed in a lot of ways.

[Reciprocity]

6. And worst yet, no junk food!

[bonito]

8. The ethic of reciprocity

The Golden rule sounds right by me.

[Reciprocity]

13. That's why I chose the name.

" The state of being reciprocal; mutual dependence, co-operation, exchange of courtesies or return in kind, etc. The policy under which special advantages are granted by one side in consideration of same by the other."


In social psychology, reciprocity refers to in-kind positive or negative responses of individuals towards the actions of others. Thus positively interpreted actions elicit positive responses and vice versa. Positive reciprocal actions differ from altruistic actions as they only follow from other positive actions and they differ from social gift giving in that they are not actions taken with the hope or expectation of future positive responses.

[bonito]

24. Wow thanks

It's like what goes around comes around, reap what you sow, what you see is what you get. life can be really rewarding, these things we need to teach.

[bluedawg12]

5. Gentle Parenting- "Parenting In Jesus" Footsetps"

http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/
>Parents have an excellent role model in Jesus. We can be patient, and explain things in creative ways to our children. And for all children, even the youngest, we can teach by example. When we are role models for kindness and compassion, forgiveness and mercy, healing and non-violence, children to learn to be that way themselves. It takes time, but children invariably absorb their parents' behavior.<

It does take time and beating a child is easier, lazier, and more impulsive on the parent's part- often merely a release of their own frustration- but such is the duty when bringing a chld into this world IMHO.

[JDPriestly]

14. Excellent post, bluedawg12!

[bluedawg12]

29. Thank you- this is an honest worthwhile discussion. n/t

[ultraist]

7. I wonder how many of the pro spanking posters hit their animals?

I'd venture to bet those same posters don't think it's ok to hit their cats or dogs to discipline them but they do think it's ok to hit another little human being.

Even ANIMALS can be trained more effectively without hitting. This argument that toddlers are not intellectually capable of responding to methods other than spanking is BS.

[soleft]

11. Or are appalled when they watch the Rodney King video

Parents spanking children and cops brutalizing suspects have a lot in common.

[mr blur]

9. Europe is getting there

In The Guardian, London, Wednesday, September 23, 1998:

"European Court ruling bans corporal punishment of UK children

LONDON - The European Court of Human Rights today awarded £10,000 damages and £20,000 in legal fees to a 14-year-old boy who claimed that a beating from his stepfather contravened the European convention on human rights.

The UK courts had previously decided that the beating, where a stepfather caned the then nine-year-old boy with a three-foot long garden cane, was permitted under the law as 'reasonable chastisement'. The UK court acquitted the stepfather. The boy cannot be named for legal reasons.

The nine-strong panel of judges in Starsbourg today ruled that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The treatment of the applicant by his stepfather was sufficiently severe to reach the level prohibited by Article 3 "

Although the court stressed that its decision related only to this specific case, the judges accepted that the case marked the end of all legal physical punishment of children in the UK.

Today's decision effectively makes corporal punishment illegal in the UK, and British legislation will require changes to give children the same rights against assault as adults. The UK will then join Austria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Latvia, Norway and Sweden in banning corporal punishment of children.

http://www.cei.net/~rcox/nospbans.html

[Quixote1818]

28. Legislation based on Science and Reason! How rare these days!

Good news!

[HockeyMom]

10. Yes, I HAVE seen many disapproving looks

aimed at a parent spanking an out of control child at a Mall. But then, I live in a Blue State, I am 56 years old, and my parents never spanked ME. Sometimes I feel I am living on a different plant from some parts of the country.

[Quixote1818]

25. Thats why the crime rate in Vermont is so out of control!

Those dam liberals don't know how to beat good sense into their children. Or perhaps all that soft discipline is turning them into Homo's!

[tonka023]

12. pre conquest native american culture

I recall hearing of how native cultures did not use
corporal punishment to discipline children. They had a remarkable culture
that recognized 6 sexes equally --- I think it was 6 anyway. But they didn't
beat their children, that sort of brutal punishment was introduced by the
Europeans, and the residential schools. Native chlidren were taken from
their families and treated most brutally, leaving them practically without
family skills and introduced to that method of dealing with things.

I'm sure others know so much more
about native culture. I don't know
whether this is true of all native
culture, or just the west coast.

It makes me wonder how many other more perfect
cultures were obliterated by might. Tibet comes
to mind.


tonka

[newyawker99]

21. Hi tonka023!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Quixote1818]

23. Yes might has always won but sometimes when you win you really

lose and sometimes when you lose you really win. That was from "White-men Can't Jump".

Tonka,
Your post is very insightful and thoughtful and you are exactly right about how violent powerful cultures have often wiped out beautiful peaceful cultures. Its heartbreaking!

[Bjornsdotter]

15. You are not allowed to hit your children...

in Sweden. I can remember as a child seeing a foreigner spank a their child and the police were called. I'm not saying that every parent in Sweden refrains from spanking, but in general it is not a part of the culture.

Cheers!

[Quixote1818]

26. Those pussy socialist Swedes!

What is wrong with them homo's?

[Bjornsdotter]

27. Lol......

....I'm not sure! Sex is okay, just not violence.

Cheers!

[porphyrian]

16. A utopian ideal, but not representative of reality.

Even if parents never spanked their children, some kids would grow up to be violent. Why? Violence is very much a part of life and the human condition. It's also dishonest to say that spanking is wrong for all children. It's also wrong to think that spanking is a good way to discipline all children. Punishment has to be tailored both to the child and the circumstance.

[moobu2]

18. Spanking is never right under any circumstances.

What you’re doing is lying to yourself that you’re hitting the child out of some desire to discipline, but in actuality, you’re taking your anger revenge out on them. That’s all it ever is.

It’s never necessary and it’s an assault of violence against someone who cant defend themselves.

It does life long damage, so never ever hit anyone, especialy a developing child.

[porphyrian]

32. Sorry, you're wrong.

"What you’re doing is lying to yourself that you’re hitting the child out of some desire to discipline, but in actuality, you’re taking your anger revenge out on them. That’s all it ever is."

While this is sometimes true, it isn't always, and you're lying in saying it is.

"It’s never necessary and it’s an assault of violence against someone who cant defend themselves."

Horseshit. Spanking isn't "an assault of violence against someone who cant(sic) defend themselves," it's simply a physical form of reprimand. Spanking doesn't bruise anything but the child's ego. If it does, then it isn't spanking, it's abuse, and that's not what we're talking about. If you can't separate the two, then you don't know what spanking is, and you don't know what you're talking about.

"It does life long damage, so never ever hit anyone, especialy a developing child."

Again, you seem unable to differentiate between spanking and abuse, which is wrong. Spanking does not do life long damage to most children. However, spanking isn't appropriate for all children, either. It's not as simple as that. You have to know the child, their personality, their sensitivity, how they learn, what form of punishment is most effective against them. Then, you have to weigh this information against the offense to determine what is most appropriate. Simply declaring one method of punishment to be absolutely wrong all the time (or absolutely correct all the time) is just plain dumb, and is usually the actions of someone who hasn't yet raised any children themselves.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

20. I believe a distinction needs to be made

between a swat on the butt and a beating.

My husband and I occasionally swatted toddlers on the diapers for terrifyingly dangerous things like licking the wall socket or running out into the street. It was done more for the sound and shock value than anything else.


Later we would stand up and look like we might do it again, but never did. It became a joke.

To this day, to tease me, sometimes if I stand up suddenly my son who is 31, runs out the front door!

[porphyrian]

34. Exactly. There's a big difference.

If all spanking was wrong, entire consecutive generations would all be insane right now (which, maybe, the case can be made for). Everyone knew the difference between spanking and abuse until someone decided no one should ever do it.

[Stuckinthebush]

17. It is utterly amazing to me to view the spanking poll thread

If we have so many "progressives" who still feel that is quite acceptable and even loving to use violence against a child, we are truly a fucked up society.

Violence against children? I don't care how light or "loving" you do it, it teaches the child that violence is ok because the person who loves me most is OK with violence. Amazing.

[moobu2]

19. Absolutely right! Any spanking, hitting or anything like that is abuse.

[northzax]

22. imagine a society in which crime didn't exist

and there were no jails. Imagine the horror that people would express when a child was grounded, or sent to the corner for a time out! imagine the horror.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. "you may say I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one....

I hope some day you'll join us, and the world will live as one".

He never lived to see it, but that doesn't mean Mr.Lennon didn't have the right idea, the only 'real' future worth 'working' for.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. "You have to be taught to hate and fear it has to be drummed in..

your dear little ear... you have to be carefully taught"...

People are violent, because they learn, from a very young age, that violence is tolerated in this world- that it is sometimes encouraged, and effective to 'get' what you want- or to control others, particularly the most vulnerable, weak, or intimidated.

Why do children mis-behave? What IS misbehavior? Most of the time children act out, not because they are 'made bad' or want to do what is 'wrong' but because they have needs that are not being met. And when those needs aren't met- or even acknowledged, frustration sets in, and with frustration comes anger, and with anger comes violence NOT because 'it's' ok- but because that is what they have seen, lived, and grown up to believe is appropriate- or at least acceptable.

We've lost touch with what is so vital in life- the interaction with each other. Time spent accumulating things is time that often is stolen from those in our 'circle' who need attention, and stolen from ourselves. Our triggers are easily pulled, our lives are fast track lanes to .... where? what? why?....

When we die, will our children truly treasure the 'things' or 'money' we leave them, or the time spent together, tears and laughter, simple things, silly things- the best of what life really is, that can't be bought sold, or traded- the things we try so hard to capture with pictures, and videos, and words, but live in a place called memory-???

It's been quite the ride, this life-

Oh how I hope your world comes to reality- someday, before it is to late, for all the kids yet to be....

blu

[bluedawg12]

33. Here are some recent scientific journal publications and findings:

Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Oct;159(10):938-42. Related Articles, Links

Relationship of corporal punishment and antisocial behavior by neighborhood.

Grogan-Kaylor A.

School of Social Work, University of Michigan, 1080 S. University Avenue, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVES: To examine the relationship of corporal punishment with children's behavior problems while accounting for neighborhood context and while using stronger statistical methods than previous literature in this area,
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS: Parental use of corporal punishment was associated with a 0.71 increase (P<.05) in children's externalizing behavior problems even when several parenting behaviors, neighborhood quality, and all time-invariant variables were accounted for. The association of corporal punishment and children's externalizing behavior problems was not dependent on neighborhood context. The research found no discernible relationship between corporal punishment and internalizing behavior problems.
..................
Child Maltreat. 2005 Aug;10(3):283-92. Related Articles, Links
Corporal punishment and the growth trajectory of children's antisocial behavior.
Grogan-Kaylor A.

School of Social Work, 1080 South University Avenue, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 48109, USA.

Despite considerable research, the relationship between corporal punishment and antisocial behavior is unclear.
Findings suggested that corporal punishment has a relationship with children's initial antisocial behavior and with changes in antisocial behavior.

The relationship between corporal punishment and antisocial behavior persists even when accounting for unmeasured time invariant characteristics of children and families. The findings suggest that corporal punishment is not a preferable technique for disciplining children.
.............

Isr J Psychiatry Relat Sci. 2004;41(2):90-7. Related Articles, Links

Attitudes and opinions on corporal punishment among urban Israeli Jews.
Gofin R, Levav I, Kohn R.
Department of Social Medicine, Hadassah Medical Organization, Jerusalem, Israel. [email protected]

Corporal punishment of children constitutes a human rights violation and has mental health consequences, yet it is frequently practiced in many countries.

Most respondents did not endorse corporal punishment. However, when confronted with a question tapping the readiness of adults to comply with a ruling by the Supreme Court that prohibits the use of corporal punishment at home, most respondents expressed skepticism that the public will comply. Forty percent thought that most parents would agree to undergo training in the use of alternative means of discipline. Fifty-seven percent experienced physical punishment when growing up, a variable which was associated with all responses favoring its use as a means of discipline.
................