Read and share: Wash Post GRAPHIC comparing KATRINA & CHERNOBYL:

[Nothing Without Hope]

This graphic is in the Opinion section of the Washington Post online. Considering how notorious the Chernobyl disaster was, the comparison is striking. I believe that, as part of the government efforts, the true number of people who died because of the murderous blocks and delays of aid by the feds will never be known but are likely to be in the tens of thousands. Those who have lost homes and family members are even more numerous, and few of them are receiving the aid they need.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/09/23/GR2005092300689.html

[aquart]

Done.

[Nikki Stone 1]

1. kick

:kick:

[bpilgrim]

23. added to the Gallery - Vote for your favorites!

http://GlobalFreePress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Tommy_J]

2. Wow

Thats remarkable

[Nothing Without Hope]

3. Welcome to DU, Tommy_J! Glad to have you with us!

:hi: :toast:

[Tommy_J]

6. Hey thanks!

Actually I've been here daily almost from day one - just seldom ever post

[Nothing Without Hope]

9. Interesting - I like posting because the responses from other people

are always interesting and I often learn new things in the ensuing discussions. It also increases the important sense of being part of a community. These hard days, I especially value that sense.

[NNadir]

4. I would not characterize the Soviet response to Chernobyl as immediate.

There was a good deal of diddling there too, but it was in secret.

I think the response of both one party propaganda states, the 1986 Soviet State and the 2005 Repuke State, to the disaster were much closer than Rhodes represents.

Chernobyl however was a much less serious event than the hurricane, much easier to limit and contain. Of course, Bush is more of a Brezhnev type than he is a Gorbachev, but I note that the Soviet response was so fraught with incompetence that it precipitated an event that most people thought impossible, the fall of the one party state.

Although the death toll at Chernobyl was relatively low, it could have been even lower if only iodine tablets had been issued in a timely fashion. Before one gives the Bushian answer, "no one could have anticipated," I note that the Polish authorities, who faced much lower risks than the Soviet citizens, had widely distributed iodine to most of the Polish population within a few days of the accident. This probably helped more than many people realize.

[Nothing Without Hope]

7. You raise important points. Supplies of those iodine tablets should

have been readily available and dispensed immediately. The first impulse of the Soviet government was to pretend that nothing had happened - as with Katrina, the welfare of the people was a lower priority with the government than were spin and politics. The radioactive plume made concealment impossible.

[bananas]

12. What's a good source for KI?

California used to give it away free, but I missed out.
Can I buy it at a pharmacy OTC?
http://www.oes.ca.gov/Operational/OESHome.nsf/0/ABC0D5826BF7038888256CC40068933B?OpenDocument

on edit: link to news article about the old give-away program
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/1517805/detail.html

[NNadir]

21. Kelp pills, as found in health food stores.

Iodized salt is well.

[bananas]

31. Am I supposed to swallow 1,000 kelp tablets?

Am I reading these right?

The recommended dose of KI is 130mg, which is the standard tablet size.
http://www.oes.ca.gov/Operational/OESHome.nsf/PDF/KI-FactSheet/$file/KIFactSheet.pdf

The kelp tablets at GNC have 130mcg/tablets,
does that mean I'm supposed to swallow 1,000 tablets?
http://www.gnc.com/productDetails.aspx?&MSHiC=65001&L=10&W=iodine%20&Pre=%3CFONT%20STYLE%3D%22background%3A%23ffff00%22%3E&Post=%3C/FONT%3E&id=3910〈=en

How much salt would I have to swallow? 500 teaspoons?
"A quarter teaspoon of salt (1.5 grams) provides 67 micrograms of iodine"
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question367.htm

[UpInArms]

24. here's a source

http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=676&parent_category_rn=4500460

[bananas]

32. At the required doses, it would kill you.

http://www.ki4u.com/

Regarding ingesting (drinking/swallowing) iodine, iodine tablets (widely sold for water purification), tincture of iodine, or Povidone-iodine solutions (like the Betadine® brand solution):

Cresson H. Kearny, the author of Nuclear War Survival Skills, Original Edition Published September, 1979, by Oak Ridge National Laboratory, a Facility of the U.S. Department of Energy (Updated and Expanded 1987 Edition) states on page 115:

Elemental (free) iodine is poisonous, except in the very small amounts in water disinfected with iodine tablets or a few drops of tincture of iodine. Furthermore, elemental iodine supplied by iodine tablets and released by tincture of iodine dropped into water is not effective as a blocking agent to prevent thyroid damage. If you do not have any potassium iodide, DO NOT TAKE IODINE TABLETS OR TINCTURE OF IODINE.

[UpInArms]

33. thanks for that information

would these be what someone would be looking for then?

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00577.html?source=Google&key=Potassium_Iodide&WT.srch=1

Potassium Iodide Tablets
130 mg, 14 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 577
References
Supplement Facts

Serving Size 1 tablet

Servings Per Container 14
Amount Per Serving

Potassium iodide


130 mg

Supplying:



Iodine

99 mg

Potassium

31 mg

Other ingredients: dicalcium phosphate, microcrystalline cellulose, stearic acid, silica, magnesium stearate.

This product contains NO sugar, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn or dairy. Contains NO artificial color, sweeteners, flavors or preservatives.
Dosage and Use


Potassium iodide should only be taken when instructed to do so by a public health official.


Do not use as an everyday supplement.


The maximum dosage for adults is 130 mg per day.


The following is recommended for children (can be crushed and given in liquids to children too small to swallow pills):
— 3-18 years: 65 mg (1/2 tablet)
— 1 month-3 years: 32 mg (1/4 tablet)
— birth-1 month: 16 mg (1/8 tablet)


Importantly, potassium iodide that is not absorbed by the thyroid gland is quickly flushed from the system through urine.
Caution

Do not use if you are allergic to iodine.
Warnings

...more...

[bananas]

34. Yes that looks like it

I'm just learning about this, so don't go by me.

One thing I noticed - what you pasted says, "Do not use as an everyday supplement."

However, according to the faq on the fda website, it should be used everyday until the danger is passed (don't ask me how you're supposed to know when that is).

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drugprepare/KI_Q&A.htm#How%20long

7. How long should potassium iodide (KI) be taken?

Since KI protects for approximately 24 hours, it should be dosed daily until the risk no longer exists. Priority with regard to evacuation and sheltering should be given to pregnant females and neonates because of the potential for KI to suppress thyroid function in the fetus and neonate. Unless other protective measures are not available, we do not recommend repeat dosing in pregnant females and neonates.

[cap]

16. Chernobyl is a much more serious event

it's long term effects and early deaths due to radiation are still on going.

[NNadir]

19. And the pollution effects from the oil industry in NO will go away?

The Chernobyl event has been exhaustively examined. I report released by the IEAE has indicated that the total number of early deaths - ie shortened lives - since few people have actually died since 1986 as a result of Chernobyl, will be about 4000. Of these only a few hundred people have actually died up to now. Most will lose a decade or so off their lives. This is tragic, but the scale of New Orleans may prove much, much larger.

The number of people who died each year in New Orleans from the air pollution associated with oil operations under normal conditions almost certainly exceeded this figure, 4000, every year. Now that this crap has been released all over the region in a toxic soup of unknown composition, it is certain that chemical contamination of that area will continue for many years if not centuries. The difference between nuclear contamination and chemical contamination is that nuclear decays remove much of the radioactivity whereas chemical contamination without intervention lasts essentially forever.

The Chernobyl exclusion zone is now teeming with wildlife. Somehow I'm not sure the same result will be obtained in New Orleans.

[norml]

5. It was part of what brought down the Soviet Union, confidence in the

system was lost.

Recommended!

[KittyWampus]

25. Item- The UN just issued a whitewash claiming less deaths in Chernobyl

I made this comparison often after Katrina at the initial prompting of another astute DU'er.

The Bush Regime & NeoCons need to be linked with the Soviets.

One party system
Incompetent cronyism
Coverups
Rotting infrastructure
Wealthy elite and poor masses

Ironic, many NeoCons started as Trotskyists and/or as experts on Soviet politics.

[Kurovski]

8. It looks like the Republicans are even more incompetent than Commies.

Great.

[high density]

10. "National leadership reponse delayed by... vacations"

What a great country we live in! God Bless America and Preznit Bush!

[Nothing Without Hope]

11. I do believe that there was a deliberate element in the gross delays and

blockages of aid after Katrina - which continue to this day. I also believe there were multiple reasons for these deliberate choices. There was also vast incompetence, but IMO not all of it was that.

Among other things, the whole disaster was manipulated to suupport a planned power grab. If you think this is tinfoilhattery, I suggest you read this thread - including the important articles posted in the responses:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4790112
thread title: Missing A KEY POINT in *'s speech: POWER GRAB FOR POTUS AND MILITARY

With Chernobyl, there would be no reason for the government to WANT the explosion, the radioactive contamination and the deaths.

[sandnsea]

13. No, it's ideology

Christo-corporatism, they recreated FEMA and had no intention of government responding to disasters anymore. That's part of their belief, private people should take care of each other, not government. That's why corporations and churches could get in when FEMA couldn't. It's deliberate for sure, but not for any further militarization purposes.

[YOY]

14. Chernobyl = 'Wormwood'

Also the construction material of Bush's skull.

Coincidence?

[Nothing Without Hope]

15. LA Times - Bush has picked another HACK to replace Brown at FEMA

story is here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4943030
Thread title: LA Times: "Shades of FEMA's Brown in Bush Pick" Sauerbrey is another HACK

They won't change. Change has to come from the outside.

[MadHound]

17. That's nice and all,

But there are a couple of huge differences. At Chernobyl, the people aren't going to be able to go back and live in the surrounding area for decades. In addition, while Katrina took its toll of death and then left, Chernobyl is a gift that keeps on giving. Strange cancers, birth defects, and odd growths are just a few of the radiation linked diseases that are continuing to pop up. While some people in NO indeed will get cancers from the toxic sludge they were exposed to in the flood, it won't be passed on to the next generation like is happening with Chernobyl. And the land in NO hasn't be rendered uninhabitable for hundred of years.

There are some similarities in the two disasters, but there are some major differences. People can move back fairly quickly after a flood and hurricane, whereas radioactive contamination is the gift that keeps on giving.

[skids]

20. "Katrina took its toll of death and then left"

Jury is still out on that. We still don't know how bad the chemical spills were, and yes, chemicals alone can render land uninhabitable for decades.

[NNadir]

22. This is nonsense.

There are no "strange cancers" at Chernobyl. Few birth defects have been observed. There is an elevated level of thyroid cancer which is curable. Surprisingly to all, the expected increase in leukemia has been much less than anticipated.

I note that the vast majority of the radioisotopes at Chernobyl long ago decayed to stable elements. The Chernobyl exclusion zone is home to many endangered animals that can survive no where else in Europe - mostly owing to human presence. It is not a dead zone. In fact the cooling ponds have large numbers of catfish. These catfish show some genetic abnormalities, but no gross deformations.

People may move back to New Orleans, but I don't think they have any sense whatsoever of the increased risk they face as a result of the distribution of chemical toxins. This may not be known for many decades but I'm sure it will show up. I expect that the loss of life from these effects will outstrip Chernobyl by many times - especially because people are moving back directly into the contaminated zone.

This is another difference between the Soviet reaction and the likely American reaction. The Soviets monitored the damaged area. The US will simply try to pretend it didn't happen.

[KittyWampus]

26. Thyroid cancer is 'curable', that's some mighty cold comfort.

A less than expected rise in leukemia is still a rise, glad you're not one of the unlucky ones.

SOME genetic abnormalities in catfish is different than NO abnormalities.

And Russia has every reason do their best to make things seem "not as bad" as previously expected. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and willingness to accept "Scientific Data" unquestioningly.

I personally no longer give governments or scientists the benefit of a doubt. Especially since scientists exist now as little more than adjuncts to Big Business.

[Nothing Without Hope]

27. yes, the EPA has been notably silent about the toxic ooze in New Orleans

"This is another difference between the Soviet reaction and the likely American reaction. The Soviets monitored the damaged area. The US will simply try to pretend it didn't happen."

I agree.

[sinkingfeeling]

18. Love the comparison between 'roving bands of "contractors and

lobbyists" and "wolves and feral dogs"! Excellent!!

[Festivito]

28. Accounting of possibly killed by each: thwarted by goverments.

How many people will remain unaccounted after Katrina? Our government even hires a company that loses found bodies, let alone to account for the number of people who are not found and not elsewhere, washed away by the waters.

I just doubt Russia did kept a running total on Chernobyl.

[ContraBass Black]

29. They forgot a difference:

You can see a hurricane coming.

[Nothing Without Hope]

30. Yes, you are absolutely right. And the experts TOLD Bush and the other

feds exactly what to expect - it's in the timeline and documented despite their lies that they didn't know what Katrina would do.

It's one of the many reasons why I believe the murderous delay and blockage of aid by FEMA under the Administration's orders was more than just incompetence, though there was plenty of that too. It was DELIBERATE. Not only did they see this hurricane coming, but they had been explicitly warned for years (as in the early 2001 report) that there was a high probability that this would happen, and their response was to block funding for even maintaining the levees, let alone building them up and drafting plans for evacuation.

At what point does it shade into mass murder? In my own mind, I am certain that that point was passed.

Chernobyl was not deliberate, and the officials did act to try to save lives. They could have done more, but they did not BLOCK rescue and aid as Bush's goons did.

I also believe the reports of "looters™" and extreme violence in New Orleans were hyped and fabricated, and that more needs to be done to show this. Some has, for example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1749293
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4568012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1757247
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1805793
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4894327
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/29/national/nationalspecial/29crime.html?incamp=article_popular

[Nothing Without Hope]

35. One kick before it sinks into invisibility n/t

[lakeguy]

36. wow! nt

[malaise]

37. Wow indeed!!! n/t

[Theres-a]

38. kick