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MN ChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:16 PM
Original message
Secession - a serious alternative?
The topic of "blue state" secession has been kicked around in a humorous way since the election. Maybe it is time to take it more seriously.

What is to stop blue states bordering Canada to simply conduct referenda to determine whether or not to petition Canada for admission as a province of that sensible nation? And, if the Canadians agree, simply withdrawing from the US of Jeebus and becoming Canadian.

The blue states are, by and large, contiguous if you recall the U.S. of Canada/Jesusland graphic. Secessionists would not be declaring war on the US as the Confederacy did, we would simply be affiliated with a neighboring country.

The insanity is not going to stop in the US anytime soon, so howzabout simply washing our hands of the whole mess in a peaceful and democratic fashion? It would be the ultimate example of voting with one's feet.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nope.
And leave my fellow Americans under the rule of evil-doers? No way! We sink or swim together.
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titoresque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. you wouldnt be leaving them
there is still "free will" ......right?

I think its a great idea, although we'd have to fight a bloody civil war first.

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MN ChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. I think the civil war is coming anyway
If Chimpco has mercenaries and troops in Washington (not so coincidentally on the weekend of the peace march) the message is clear: dissent and risk your freedom or possibly your life.

There is no way to remove these people. No matter how many vote against them, they will never lose an election. The options of the sane are increasingly limited and everything should be on the table for discussion.
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titoresque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Agreed!
:hi:
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. No.
In a word...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jeebo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Actually, most of them seceded in 1861...
...all of them but South Carolina in December 1860.

Ron
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Thanks for the pointer.
:-)
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. I believe we had a war that solved that question.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. That war *OBVIOUSLY* never really ended. (NT)
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Jeebo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. The Civil War didn't resolve the issue...
...of whether any state has the legal, constitutional right to secede. All that happened is that the states that were trying to secede were forced back into the Union literally at gunpoint.

Abraham Lincoln was scared to death that the courts would address this issue. He actually threatened to start rounding up Supreme Court justices at one point to prevent this.

And then, after the war, federal officials declined to prosecute Jefferson Davis for treason (after holding him in a federal prison for two years) because they were scared to death that the courts would decide that Davis was not guilty of treason because he was not a U.S. citizen but the leader of a foreign country.

To this day, the courts have never settled this issue. Do any of you lawyers out there know of any court case that addressed this?

Ron
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. The Civil war settled it
from a practical perspective.

If you cannot do it, except with the help of two massive armys that divide the nation on geographical, philosophical, and family basis, and costs hundreds of thousands of lives, then it is for all practical purposes, illegal.

And in the end, thats all that matters.
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bee Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. I believe its illegal. n/t
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. So what? So is 99% of the actions taken by the current administration. NT
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Actually, I don't think it is.
Given that this country was based on seccession and revolution, it's hypocritical to stop others from doing it. And Amendments Nine and Ten seem to suggest it's within the rights of the states to secede.

The illegal side of the Civil War was actually the northern side -- of course, it was also the side that held the moral high ground, so things get really muddy, really fast.
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bee Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. true. however... the supreme court has ruled that states
are part of a union and do not have the right to secede from the nation. So while it may not be "illegal" it is still not allowed. Heres a good article from findlaw with case history:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Good link. Thanks. n/t
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm all for it.
If there's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that you can't
save people that don't want to be saved (no matter how hard you try).
And a lot of the Redlanders have made it very clear that they are
perfectly happy with things just the way they're going.

So yes, let's walk away and cut our losses.

People with Blue hearts currently trapped in the Red Zone can
certainly immigrate to Blue Land.

Tesha
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Not a going proposition, but fun to imagine:
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Unfortunately, that puts mine and the rest . . .
of the heavily BLUE counties of Northern Ohio . . .in Jesusland.

Friggin' backwoods state and it's POS SOS.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. Maybe make the border the I-70 line.
That seems to be the way it breaks in OH, IL, MO...
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. There are a lot of good people in the red states
and we can't just abandon them because some of us are fortunate enough to live in a blue state. And... not everyone who voted for * is an evil Freeper; many good people were fooled into voting for Chimpy. Uninformed is not the same as Evil.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. They can emmigrate to Blue Land. (NT)
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Katrina proved that there are many many people out there who just
could not afford something like that. And a lot of people love their states, and don't want to leave. For many, the only thing wrong with their state is how most of the population votes in elections.

Besides, I for one am not ready to give up on the America I thought I knew. I want to keep fighting for the way things SHOULD be around here. If I ever decide to give up, I already know where I'll go.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. If the situation becomes urgent enough, people find a way...
How much wherewithal did European immigrants have when they decided
to set sail for America? I'm pretty sure that lots of the people
dying of (for example) the Irish Potato Famine didn't have two
coins to rub together.

We're not talking about a hurricane evacuation; we're talking about
people taking the considered decision to pull up stakes and move
from an insane country to a sane country.

Tesha
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Why don't YOU move to red land and make it blue
Edited on Thu Sep-22-05 02:55 PM by notmypresident
Good god, all this tiresome bullshit about red states blue states is still going on.

One more time, for those that did not pay attention, more people voted for Bush in many of the blue states than in most of the red states. I have pulled these figures before but am too tired to try again.

This ridiculous moral superiority shit has got to stop. If lovely California is blue why do you have that fuck republican as a governor?

NY, why do you have a republican governor? Hmmm.

If Louisiana and Oklahoma are so red, why do they have democratic governors?

The whole country, in EVERY STATE, is divided.

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Gemini Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
43. How? nt
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. For the good people of the South, I have one word of advice...
move.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Thank you, thank you. nt
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Shit, I'm for it.
If America is going to be ruled by a bunch of ignorant Southern crackers, then I say fuck America. We should have split up back in 1861.

The Northeast and the West can have their own countries and the remains can be Jesusland or whatever, and they can have Duhbya as their head retard for life, and everyone will be happy.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. On a serious note
Edited on Thu Sep-22-05 02:26 PM by nadinbrzezinski
I actually am starting to see the country breaking apart into three to four successor states... they have atomized the country to that point... either that or a hot civil war

As to secession, Texas vs US in the 1870s settled it legally, a state cannot get out once it is admited... not that a nice civil war will not change that status.

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MN ChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The country is breaking rapidly apart
I don't think there's much doubt about that. The Reichwing has been intent on the project for a generation. The pieces cannot be put back together, so I think it's smart to start evaluating alternatives.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I'll doubt it
The country is divided. Even some states are divided. Hardly a prescription for secession or civil war. Isn't going to happen. I doubt most of the "blue" states would support it. There are a lot of "blue" states (as measured by whether Bush or Kerry got more votes) that have Statewide officials from both parties (a repub and dem senator or a repub governor). And anyone who thinks Canada would simply open its doors to accepting new territories from US has a very active imagination.

onenote
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. Canada would take the Pacific Coast in less than a heartbeat
California alone would double the econmy of Canada.

But ya know, that would meant Nevada would be a foreign nation which would put a crip in my git along
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. right..California is an economic paradise
the additional expense to the Canadian government to provide services to California; the costs of integrating California into the Canadian government; the resistance that would be felt from various Canadian provinces from adding a large population with which it has nothing in common; the fact that Californians don't think of themselves as Canadian, they think of themselves as Americans and that California is hardly a solidly blue state -- you do realize that since 1967, four out of the six governors elected in the state were repubs, including Reagan, Deukmejian, and Wilson? Even the bluest states, such as Vermont and Massachussetts -- they currently have Republican governors. So I stand by my position -- never, ever, in a million years, would/could any state secede. (Amendment: if any state were to try and secede at some point, I imagine it would be a deep red state, like Utah, and it would simply try to set itself up as a separate country).

onenote
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Geeze
The additional expense to "provide" services to CA would be offset by the fact that California has a much larger GDP than CAnada does.

CA is much less conservative than when the crazy repubs were running us. Mostly BECAUSE of those bigoted thugs.

So yeah, I realize what has happened since 1967. Do you realize what has happened since 1996?

Never ever in a million years would CA ever seced but that doesn't mean that CA would turn Canada into a world power.

Put in Washington and Oregon and you get Apple AND Microsoft, HP the CA Central Valley, Hollywood all thos ports.

C'mon...the whole frustration with being a blue state is that CA and NY basically support the entire midwest and they repay us by using there Electoral votes for retarded cokeheads.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. Count me in
I am so outta here.
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drmom Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Me too!
I've already been looking into emigration to Canada...it turns out that our family qualifies!
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Jeebo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. Don't you know the U.S. is "indivisible"...
...the pledge of allegiance says so.

Ron
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. Secession is out of the question....The bloodiest conflict this nation
Edited on Thu Sep-22-05 02:50 PM by rasputin1952
ever endured was during the Civil War; and to this day, there are people out there that would enjoy seeing secession return.

We are all citizens of this nation, and we should act as such. We have the capacity to destroy the bush cabal once and for all, getting the neo-con agenda tossed into the dustbin of history where it belongs, but we must all work together to defeat this catastrophe. Division will do nothing but inflame passions that should have died a century ago.

Many of the true conservatives realize that the clown-in-charge is a waste of air and space, using this, we can ensure that the neo-cons will never raise their heads above the muck again. Even those who were so incredibly blind in both 2000 & 2004 are seeing what a horror they have brought to this nation. If we need to crush this cabal once and for all, we will need intelligent conservatives on our side as well...they hate this guy too.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
37. Many Red Staters are saying exactly the same thing.
So their reaction would be: "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." They would see it as an opportunity to set up the kind of country they want.

Some of the states would have to be split up. California, Oregon, and Washington being the most prominent ones. Pennsylvania would get carved up too, as would Ohio, Indianna, and Illinois.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
38. It would solve SOME problems
but create far more.

No, secession is more suited to flights of fancy than as a serious method of solving..well anything.

We, The United States is a family and you know what they say about picking your family.

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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
39. No...its a silly alternative that might feel good until you start...
thinking.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
40. The people in those states don't want to secede
Just because they voted for Kerry does not mean that they hate the US.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
41. Sounds great to me. I'd be very happy to be a Canadian. Eh?
It would also have the happy effect of reducing the American Empire to a more manageable rogue state.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's not so simple
If we started this, we can't say that conservatives in blue states couldn't break up the states into smaller states. I believe the U.S. needs more than two parties with influence, to help insure that the right wingers don't get so much power again.

If the neo-cons seize power, and I think they are capable of that if so many keep being passive, there would be something more likely resembling the Revolution than the Civil War. But I hope it doesn't come to that!
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Iris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
46. Only if everyone is given a chance go relocate to the color
of their choice.
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
48. I Wouldn't Mind Seceeding
I want so much for the neocons to have zero influence over my life, so leaving doesn't sound like such a bad idea. I hate the "new" America, anyway. I want nothing to do with it.

Tammy
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