What Do Du'ers Who make Defeatist Posts Want? Truly--

[snot]

I don't understand.

I mean, I am very worried that they may be right, at least in the near term; but it seems clear to me that we have nothing to gain by defeatism or hopeless, and too much to lose. So I'm puzzled that defeatist posts occur as frequently here as they do.

Are they secretly hoping to be refuted?

Are they secretly hoping to be affirmed? If so, why?

Or are they just secret freepers hoping to disconsole us all?

I can speculate, and fairly intelligently if I do say so; but better to ask. Pls, no pat answers.

[tsuki]

1. Sometimes, you get so tired from the fighting that you come

here to whine so a bunch of friends will kick your * to get you started again.:shrug:

[snot]

4. that certainly makes sense; thank you.

[Hamlette]

64. that's why I do it, I need someone to give me a kick

and tell me "all is not lost".

[ladylibertee]

2. Okay, I may be totally ignorant but like what do you mean? Do

you mean like "oh poor us, we're losing?" If so,then I have no explanation for it because I do not do it.It could very well be all of the reasons you said.But on the latter,(just in case a freeper is present)there is no strategy that a freeper can possibly use that we are not on-to already.

[snot]

12. Ok, for e.g.,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4767421, posts #1 and 16.

I feel like I see a significant number of these.

Another type that I don't have handy but feel I see frequently is the kind of reply that's almost mindlessly cynical and jaded. Like, OF COURSE corporations run everything, so it's hopeless to write the media or our reps.--that's a crude version, but that's the gist.

I happen to agree that corps. are WAY too powerful, etc.; but I don't think that means there's nothing we can do forever and ever and we should just give up.

Why can't we brainstorm first, and wait to cry "hopeless" 'til we've actually, really exhausted our ideas and possibilities?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

21. You need to edit out the comma at the end of the link.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

27. A Prime Example of What You Decry, I think:

"We are Silenced"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4776326

No, we are not. What's up with that?

[LittleClarkie]

3. I don't know, but the "We're DOOMED" posts get to me too

I'm not ready to "abandon all hope" yet, thank you very much.

[ladylibertee]

5. Amen to that.My point exactly.

[all.of.me]

39. we are NOT doomed!

but thought is creative. i really believe this!

whatever you want to see happen, THINK IT! i don't read the naysayers' posts. i don't want that info in my head. whatever happen to the collective subconscious (?) of the 60s? millions of people praying and thinking the same thing at the same time. it works. if a bunch of people are saying we're doomed, well......

think positive, not negative. i do see a lot of negativity on du.

[melody]

6. it's something I've frequently encountered

I have clinical depression. My natural tendency is to envision the worst case scenario. I have friends who were raised in Smurf Family Robinson type households. One of these friends commented that he likes giving "bad news" in order to "knock people down to reality". When I pointed out to him that a lot of apparent optimists are actually clinical depressives who started out "down" and have had to climb up to see something hopeful, he said it gave him pause. It may be that a lot of negative "realist" people don't realize a lot of us are climbing up out of the pit, not scaling down from some lofty climb. lol

[Nostradammit]

7. More than a few of them are intended to dishearten us

There are some here who have nothing to say unless it's to inform you that you are DOOMED and there is no power on Heaven or on Earth that could ever possibly bring the Bush junta down.

I have a very good memory, and always make a mental note of the Eeyores.

We shall overcome.

[ladylibertee]

9. DITTO That

[TahitiNut]

40. Indeed. Every good DUer knows that exaggerating the magnitude ...

... of the political task is mere defeatism. Disagreement on this point is tantamount to sabotage and is traitorous. After all, we all know that we merely need to win a couple of elections in the Senate and House, and then the Presidency in 2008, and then we can "let the good times roll" yet again. After doing that in 2008, we can all go back to our lives and let politics take its course. Right? Simple.

:eyes:

[Nostradammit]

76. I don't mean to suggest they are all defeatists

I have many times railed at the enormity of the task ahead of us, but there exists a pattern with some posters to encourage a feeling of impending doom and nothing else.

"More than a few"

[More Than A Feeling]

41. THIS Heaven and Earth says that there is power!

I say we will win the house in '06 and the trifecta in '08. Moreover, the excellent reforms on the Ohio ballot will pass, and become a model for the nation. Every state will have non-partisan redistricting, an independent elections master, and (though is isn't part of the Ohio reforms) voter verified paper ballots.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

13. More like, I reckon

"Our voice is silenced"
"Our vote will never count again"

The threads with the "it's all over, give up" tone in them.

[elsiesummers]

24. I've been guilty of this, especially in the year folloing the 2000 electio

It wasn't at DU, more at Salon TT and at the TAP forums, but yeah, I came to the conclusion that voting is bad because it legitimizes a fraudulent process. Also that we are not in a democracy any more, if ever.

Not sure that I've entirely changed my mind, but the upside was that a couple of really awesome posters logically persuaded me that not voting would only work as a part of a movement, and not as an individual moral choice.

So while I think some "we're doomed" posts are to drag the pschye of a group in to a pit of primordial ooze, other "we're doomed" posts may be a result of an individual (but negative) epiphany, right or wrong, and the poster should perhaps be briefly and logically humored.

And hey, some people are realists and others are optomists:^)and the two are bound to disagree at times.

[DoYouEverWonder]

42. My favorite

Bush will never be impeached.

Everytime anyone tries to discuss how to make the system work in order to remove BushCo from power, the threads are shut down by the naysayer trolls with every reason in the world why it's impossible.

[Silverhair]

46. Because that avenue IS useless.

Republicans do not vote to impeach Republicans. It is that simple.

Even if we win the house in 06, an impeachment would not succeed. That requires 67 votes in the senate. There is no way that we can pick up that many seats in the Senate. Republicans will not vote to convict a Republican. So an impeachment proceeding from Democrats against W will turn into a political circus, and will look like merely a revenge move for their circus against Clinton.

That's reality. Sometimes reality sucks.

Why do I post it? Because we aren't helping ourselves by beating our heads against a wall. We need to be doing other things that help our situation.

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Nixon was forced to leave office

and was never impeached. If enough of the country decides it is time for him to go, he will be forced to resign.

Besides, impeachment is only one part of the process, that will bring enough pressure on this crew for them to start handing in resignations and lawyering up.

In addition, impeachment and other hearings put on the public record all the much of the evidence that the right cries is tinfoil hat stuff, to the category of proven fact. That is why the DEMS have been holding their own hearings, even if Repugs refuse to participate. It still documents all the evidence and it becomes part of the public record.

[Silverhair]

50. Nixon faced a Democratic Congress, both houses. NT

[DoYouEverWonder]

54. Then how do you propose we remove these monsters from power?

Or should we just sit around, making excuses for all the reasons why we can't?

[Silverhair]

56. We WIN the elections.

W will leave office on Jan 20, 2009. If we do our work well between now and then, a Democrat with a Democratic House and Senate will take over.

[DoYouEverWonder]

57. We don't have the luxury of time to wait for the next election

because there will be no next election if we do.

[tx_dem41]

58. Wow...talk about a defeatist post! n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. Then what do you think will happen

if we have another big disaster or even worse a terrorist attack on a major city in between now and then?

[tx_dem41]

61. I believe we will have elections in 2006 and 2008. n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

67. Oh we may still have elections

But they will not be fair and free anytime soon. Not as long as the Repugs control the machines.

[tx_dem41]

70. Again....defeatist. n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

73. Then how can you prove that my voted will be counted?

because without fair and free elections we no longer have a democracy.

[tx_dem41]

74. That's up to you.....

but you sound like you've already given up. I have to ask a question...do you vote? If yes, why?

[DoYouEverWonder]

82. Give up?

Yes, but it wasn't because I haven't tried.

Just one example, last August I personally handed the Kerry Campaign prima facia evidence proving that the Bush Campaign collaborated with the SBV's to put on a Pro America Rally in Gainesville, FL.

Oh you never heard about that? I'm not surprised because nothing ever came of it. Or that FCC Complaint that the Kerry Camp filed of which the above mentioned Rally was Item #5. That never went any where either apparently.

In addition, I've got a copies of the 2004 election results for almost every precinct in FL. I crunched data all the way up to the inaugural. Did you know that Betty Castor lost to Mel Martinez by just a little over 1% and she walked away. I asked her local campaign manager what was that about and the lady suddenly had to go.

BushCo will be tried in the court of public opinion. When enough Repugs refind their integrity, maybe we can try to repair our democracy. In the meantime we have to explore other options for removing BushCo from power.

BTW: What have you done?

[Silverhair]

65. You don't have a choice. NT

[DoYouEverWonder]

69. Speak for yourself

and your defeatist attitude.

[DoYouEverWonder]

68. Delete

n/t

[Silverhair]

51. Nixon faced a Democratic House and Senate.

Even the SCOTUS was more liberal at the time.

[ClassWarrior]

52. THAT DOESN'T MATTER ONE IOTA!

As calimary put it so eloquently yesterday:

ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS PLANT THE SEED.

Get people talking about it.

Bring it up.

Make them deny it.

Get it OUT THERE. In people's minds. In the national consciousness. In the pipeline. In the gossip. In the whispering campaigns. Running out of the Capitol Hill faucets and oozing from the elevator buttons and light fixtures and seeping out of the woodwork like leftover sap.

We've ABSOLUTELY scored points just by bringing it up.

PLANT THE SEED.

I think I must have called a dozen congressional offices by now, Democrats and republi-CONS both. The CONS, uncharacteristically, listen quietly and do not interrupt when I rant on about how I do NOT feel safer, and how I DREAD the thought of another three years of this incompetence, and how I PRAY that there are SOME republi-CONS of conscience who will finally put their country ahead of their party. It was interesting this morning, calling hastert's office, duncan hunter's office, and dana (wretch!) rohrabacher's office - where the staffer began a somewhat half-hearted rebuttal after I'd finished my statements. It was MOST revealing. EACH of them stayed on the line with me and didn't interrupt. The lady who answered in hastert's office even said she agreed with me. Frankly, I was STUNNED. She was quiet, courteous, and she put up NO fight at all.

They're not cocky and in-yer-face anymore, guys. That cock-sure oh-shut-up-and-go-to-hell, who-cares-what-you-think, we're-doing-whatever-the-hell-we-feel-like-doing attitude is NOT THERE. NOT ANYMORE. I've talked to some world-class snot-noses in some of these offices in other situations, and they have NEVER ONCE hesitated to try to debate me and drown me in their bullshit talking points (for which I NEVER let them get the last word and I ALWAYS have a comeback). And I'm here to tell you that this is NO LONGER happening. That is NO LONGER their temperament. They're not swaggering around like bullies anymore.

THEY KNOW THEY'RE IN TROUBLE. I think they really ARE scared. I think they realize it's all slipping away. I think we really have a chance, if we're willing to be aggressive and not to let the naysayers who think it's no use take the wind out of our sails.

Among the Dems whom I've called, the answer is similar all the way along. They appreciate it deeply. They agree completely. They are VERY happy to hear from us. They want to hear more. They want us to call them, and call OUR OWN reps, and call OTHER PEOPLE'S REPS, TOO, and spread the word. For example, call your own person and tell 'em to get behind Cynthia McKinney - AND John Conyers, too, for that matter, because they're making IMPEACHMENT noises. They're not afraid anymore, and we shouldn't be, either. The woman in Cynthia McKinney's office was VERY receptive and appreciative, and urged me onward. She said it helps THE MOST when you call your rep, or somebody else's, and urge them to support this (or whatever some other Congressperson is doing - with which you agree). She said that was the most helpful and most effective thing you could do. I told her I would continue, myself. And I'm urging YOU to do likewise.

CANNOT emphasize this strongly enough!!!

Swallow your fears.

Beat back your hesitation.

Put your cynicism on hold for maybe just two or three minutes.

And JUST DO IT.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

72. Don't any defeatists care to comment on this??

B-)

There is always hope, and there's always a way to fight.

"Your heart is an organ the size of your fist. Never stop loving. Never stop fighting."

NGU.

[snot]

15. Not exactly.

The

"I'm weary of the Katrina blame game"
"it's better for us if GWB does not resign."
"Thank you, Mr. Bush, for your honesty"
"quit being in attack Bush mode".
"How about, instead of you all demonstrating in DC, you all go to NOLA and help out"

seem to me to be more obviously likely freeper-originated. See my post #12 above for a better description. (Sorry I wasn't clear.)

Yes, I'm thinking more of the plain old "it's hopeless" post.

[me b zola]

59. Oh yes. Some of my favorite posts. Not.

The first and last on that list are not defeatest, they are rw talking points.

The second, third, and fourth are seeds that the reich wing would like to be planted among us and take root.


There was another a few days back that I alerted on because it clearly belonged in freeperville not on DU. But over a hundred people responded to the thread, I have no clue if I was the only one who hit alert or not.

[nonconformist]

10. I think we all have those days.

Those days when it seems rather hopeless, where you just get so overwhelmed with the enormity of it all. Where you feel cynical and pessimistic. Maybe sometimes they're looking for a pep-talk, other times maybe they want to warn people. Maybe they just want to talk about it with people that understand. And still other times, I'm sure, they're just disrupting.

But I'm not exactly sure what you're defining as "defeatist", so some examples would be helpful.

[0007]

38. My feeling exactly!

[hwmnbn]

11. I'm thinking more that.......

we all go thru ups and downs. Sometimes just expressing the downs is helpful. I'm tempted to believe he/she feels safe enough here to post their "troubles"

Unless a poster is habitually negative, then you can click the "ignore list" button and be done with it.

I doubt any concerted effort to undermine our morale would be unnoticed by the mods, or overlooked by the rest of us.

The cool thing I notice is that for every downer post here, there's a hundred funny or pissed-off posts I can respond to.

I love this place.

[snot]

17. I agree--the facts he state support for, well, he state support for them.

although I sometimes wish I could be sure that all the funny or pissed-off posters are also taking action.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Isn't This A Defeatist Post? LOL

Ahhh, the fun of DU. This place is always ready to explode or implode with the simplest rumor or wrong opinion or don't quite type the right words in the right way.

I've long given up on DU as anything more than a knetic community where frustrated people vent and rant or a reference for stories to follow up on other places. There's little dialogue on many issues here...unless you're one of the more "popular" posters. Dare honk someone off and your posts are ignored. That's ok...it's still fun to see how frantic this place gets when the news heats up.

Sadly DU has gotten too big and popular to be able to be much more than what you see here.

[Peter Frank]

16. Misery Loves Company...

...The ineffectual love to bitch to the impotent choir.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Frustrated, Incorporated

The Misery Company, because, you know, misery LOVES company.

(who was that... Soul Asylum? What ever happened to them?)

[snot]

19. Well, thanks all.

I don't think I meant it as a hopeless post. I don't think anything's hopeless unless we give up.

So I'm wishing for an understanding that would help me help folks stop feeling hopeless and take action!

[KT2000]

20. people who come to DU care

I think we all care deeply about the things that are discussed here. Face it - most people in this country do not care about most of the things that are discussed here.

Coming up against that apathy and also being under attack for the things we care about can be discouraging and can lead us into momentary despair. Sometimes people need to vent that despair. Loved ones are probably beyond sick of hearing the person's politics anyway, so its best to vent where people will understand.

I think it just goes with the territory of the board. I have noticed that when people do that it is an isolated type thing. If someone goes overboard on it though, the moderators take care of it.

[bee]

75. here here.

Sometimes I think my fiance will strangle me if one more "political" word comes out of my mouth. So I come here... and sometimes in moments of hopelessness. I think venting is necessary and healthy as part of a logical thought process. And discouraging those who are already discouraged doesnt really help anyone. Its difficult to be positive all of the time... just as its difficult to be understanding.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. Multiple Reasons as you & others outline. I advise to demand clarification

Some people are just plain depressed and should get professional assistance if they aren't getting it already. On the other hand, there are many caring individuals here who will readily chat with somebody to help them out. But such requests should be more direct and not disguised as a doom and gloom post.

Some are long term mole disruptors.

Some are burnouts. They can be soothed a bit but will ultimately have to heal themselves.

Some are secretly hoping to be refuted. They should not be so secret about it.

My advice is to demand clarification from such posters. Ask them directly if they are depressed, burnt out, seeking refutation or are a disruptor. Of course the disruptors will deny it, but then they are forced to emulate one of the other modes with more or less success.

[frictionlessO]

81. Snot! Read this one! Bernado gave the best advice.

Seriously Bernado that was logical, thoughtful, and empathetic.

I haven't seen many of your posts but I'll be watching for you more often now.

Thank you!

[snot]

86. I like it . . .

(I think I feel some frustration bec. it's not just that defeatist posts don't help; they literally suck time, space, and energy AWAY from more helpful posts.)

[charlie]

23. Cosmic balance

for the "Bush is toast", "The Tide Has Turned", "Conservatism is Dead" blissninnies :)

[artemisia1]

26. That's my feeling to - for the most part. There is a lot of wishful

thinking by members here, myself included, and sometimes a shot of cold water is a useful corrective. However, if a post or a thread offers NO hope, than I would call it defeatist.

For example:

1. The RW will be able to effectively spin this
2. The RW dominates the airwaves
3. The RW CONTROLS the airwaves and were toast

1 and 2 are depressing but not defeatist. #3 obviously is.

[Skidmore]

28. "blissninnies"....LOL

May I have your permission to add that to my vocabulary?

[charlie]

30. Add away

I'm sure I gleeped it from somewhere myself, though I don't remember where or when.

[JNelson6563]

25. I think you gave 'em what they want

I mean, I am very worried that they may be right....

Bingo! It's meant to discourage. Don't fall for it.

Julie

[Kailassa]

29. leave coldness for the freepers

I'm pretty new here, but it seems to me that some of you guys come to regard each other as extended family. And family can cry on each others shoulders when they need to. Some mutual complaining and reassuring actually helps bond a group, and can leave people with renewed strength to get out there fighting.

So if someone seems to be throwing in the towel, cut them some slack and lend them a hug, you'll get it back soon enough.

[ReadTomPaine]

34. Welcome to DU! Well said! n/t

[Murdock]

31. As one of the "defeatist"...

I think of myself more as a "realist".

It is a fact that Bush has gotten away with everything he has done to this nation thus far, and the list is well known by everyone here.. At best, time after time others have fallen on their swords to protect the chimp..

Why should we now begin to expect anything different? Why should we suddenly expect Republicans to distance themselves from the man that their party faithful consider a Messiah figure?

I have seen nothing in reality that would lead me to believe that Bush is a lame duck, or his agenda in any type of peril, as a matter of fact, Bush is about to get 2 nominees on the Supreme Court.

How much of the Bush Agenda has been successfully beaten back? The Bush Social Security plan is the only thing I can think of off hand..

I want to hear some concrete facts as to why I should have any hope with the current political climate of Bush being held accountable for anything..

[Kailassa]

32. keep watching

The picture is bigger that we realise, Murdoch, not everything can be predicted. I agree with you that the fight looks unwinnable, but on a much smaller scale I've won unwinnable fights before. Do all the little things that are heading in the right direction, and watch for opportunities. The world is bigger than Bush, and there are a lot of countries outside America whose economies are now tied in with yours, who need America to be prosperous, and also need it to be run by someone other than an aging prepubescent frightened egomaniac.

When people are sure they are winning they make mistakes. Watch for those mistakes, for the cracks in the armor. Remember how the water wore away the levees of NO, now it's our turn to be the water and wear away the levees of Republicanism.

[hwmnbn]

48. Here's a concrete fact you can judge.......

How bad do you want it to happen? How hard will you work for a change in political climate?

If you're not as pissed-off as most of us, you are correct in YOUR assessment of reality.

[teryang]

33. Corporations are the dominant institutions in America

The standard of living of the people has been in decline for some time, about 30 years. Globalism has imposed upon the country, reducing its industrial base and worker income. Corporations have shifted their tax burden to the middle class while the corporate elites enjoy undreamed of wealth and freedom from responsibility or accountability. The politicians in Washington and in state capitols are their corrupt servants, bought and paid for.

A centralized police state has been constructed to protect the ill gotten gains of the corporate elites. The war on terrorism is contrived by intelligence agencies to deconstruct the Constitution. The war on Iraq to line the pockets of war profiteers and destroy what little was left of discretionary spending for infrastructure, education and the general welfare.

It's a hollow gilded age. We are now a south American fascist republic.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

35. To explain - Our voice has been silenced

I have been working as hard as possible to help expose the 2004 election fraud. I log into the DU 2004 Election Results and Discussion quite often, as there is a certain solace in the discussions with others who are doing all they can do to uncover the fraud and expose the Bush administration for what they are.

I also take a look at the DU Breaking News and check in on the Greatest Page, and in General Discussion. I do this in hopes that I will read news that the Congress has begun investigations on DSM, the Katrina Genocide, etc. I also have been expecting indictments concerning the 2004 election.

Recently, I have noticed the DU 2004 Election Results and Discussion slowing in activity. Yesterday, looking at the Breaking News page, I learn there will be no congressional hearing on NO, and Congress didn't do a damn thing about the DSM. I also see posts such as this one: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x393477 Notice it only has 1 recommendation for the Greatest Page. And this one, with only 3 recommendations: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x393344 I could name countless more. There has been a large amount of evidence of 2004 fraud uncovered thanks to a handful of DUers who care.

We need a Sinclair type action to expose the fraud and to expose the vote eating machines. Without threat of losing a job, a bad employee will continue to be bad. The prez and congress have little fear of losing the job. They control the corporations that control the votes. They control the Congress that controls impeachments.

Instead of a Sinclair type action to draw the media in to helping us save this country, I log into General Discussion and see good Dems kicking or recommending posts which while albeit humorous, do little to help our plight. If we cannot rally DU into stopping the corporations that control our elections, then how can we expect to stop them from doing so?

And, yes, I get discouraged from time to time. I do feel at times we have no hope. But, is it any wonder I have those thoughts?

No, I did not post the "Our Voices have been Silenced" thread to bring DUers down. I posted it because I do have this fear that unless we stop the machines from choosing our leaders, we have no hope. I guess I was hoping that I could stir some passion within the ranks to help stop what is being set into place. The handful of people who are working to reveal the fraud and bring the elections back into the hands of the people, do get weary.

To fire employees we must have an election system that holds them accountable. Are you willing to stand up and demand it?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. Try less finality than "silenced" next time unless finality is your goal.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

37. I wasn't happy with my ending lines - but.........

was extremely tired and a bit depressed last night. I apologize for not explaining myself better. I do use DU for a sounding board of sorts, to relieve anxiety about the state of our nation. I also try to post to stir action in our plight, not to deter it. Fear of loss motivates more people than anything. I fear we will lose all hope if we do not stop the actions of those who control our elections. We all need to be doing all we can on this issue. Had our election last year (and in 2000) been fair, many people in New Orleans and Iraq would not have died. It all boils down to our elections.

[autorank]

85. NBSH, 'snot's' walking the walk...

http://www.current.tv/studio/media/464902.htm

So are you!!!

[QC]

43. Some of them love the drama of the whole thing.

Some people here could give drama queen coaching to Norma Desmond.

[Zynx]

44. If the Republicans are as powerful as many claim, just give up.

Seriously. If they are that in control of world events, there is not point in resisting.

[NewJeffCT]

45. I don't like to be disappointed

I would rather be pleasantly surprised. I've been a pessimist my whole life and it usually works. Whenever I start getting too optimistic, something will shoot me down! I joined DU almost 2 years ago now, and was almost overwhelmed by the daily "Bush is done" threads on here... by the time Oct. of 2004 rolled around, even I was starting to get a bit optimistic regarding the election - only to be shot down on election day.

[Redstone]

49. People get depressed, and want to express their feelings, I think.

I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but the bullshit wears me down now and again.

It is easy for people to get way, WAY down these days. These posts may be a bit of catharsis for them.

Redstone

[paineinthearse]

53. Similarly, how many times have you seen someone make a neutral or

positive post, and the first response is negative.

Seems to me there are a few bitter people here who just can't hold comment, would rather post something contrary and negative than just let it alone.

:shrug:

[frictionlessO]

83. I think that pisses me off more than anything.

Like even more than crash and burn disgusting little freepy types.
Nothing hurts our cause more than ourselves. When an honest DU'er posts a positive and an equally honest DU'er throws a negative down right away it bums me no end.

I think its careless and shows a lack of empathy at the time of posting. I've learned to just keep my mouth shut now though... and no longer respond to such instances. If its a repeated behavior I'll either put them on ignore or alert or both.

[Douglas Carpenter]

55. the very first response to the very first post I ever made on DU

I had suggested writing an E-mail to MSNBC about a blatantly untruthful story they had run. The very first response was something along the lines of "I hate to break this to you but it won't do any good and they don't read our letters"

That was not helpful. Fortunately, the vast majority of responses to suggestions for action are much more positive.

[DS1]

62. Comfort and attention - and hopefully validation.

[welshTerrier2]

63. these are desperate times ...

if by "defeatist", you are criticizing those who argue that nothing can be done, then i am in full agreement with you ... if the posts you refer to argue that we are doomed so we might as well go watch TV, i agree with you ...

but if you include in your criticism dark posts that foretell of a collapse of the US, the devastation of global warming, global warfare spurred on by competition for oil as we approach peak oil, then i don't agree ...

too many on DU believe that all we need to do is elect Democrats, Democrats of any stripe, and all, or at least most, will be well ... the "susie sunshines" are the other side of the same coin you're complaining about ...

my view is to tell the truth and clearly paint the very dark pictures not because "we have been defeated" but rather so we focus on the real issues and we wake up other Americans to the colossal dangers that lie just ahead ... i truly believe no picture is too dark to portray the desperate situation we're in ...

but i would not waste my time with such prognostication if i thought that nothing could be done ... perhaps painting dark pictures discourages some ... rather than getting discouraged, they should re-double their efforts ... Democrats have become too fearful of being the bearers of bad news (should i say we are afraid of being the "bad news bearers" - OK ... not funny i suppose) ... we have become so afraid that voters will "shoot the messenger" that we are afraid to tell them the truth ... and what better case could we make for the need for regime change in the US than the horrible failures of bankrupt neo-con ideologies and the resultant dangers they impose on our country?

but if we continue to run from the darkness, then, and only then, there will truly be no hope ... the spirit here is not defeatist; it's hopeful with very dark undertones of concern ...

[The Straight Story]

66. Pretty damn simple to me really - we are that way

Think about it - we are discussing defeatists here and yet we feel the same way about things all the time. X will go bad because * is in office, people are hopeless and lost because they don't see things the way we do -- hence the general population is lost.....


We have defeatists (or perhaps, realistic) views of things based on our experiences and we project those out at times onto other issues somewhat related.

I think we need to hear more from defeatists at times. It is one way to examine things in a not so rosy light and maybe see what deeper issues that we may be ignoring in our utopian view of how things should be.

I am less alarmed by people with a defeated attitude then I am with how articles about a * bathroom note can grow super huge but a thread about some new legislation might snag a post or two. People want to bitch because it is easier then doing something real (I am talking general populace) and that splashes over to the online world sometimes. "It's the same poilitical shit, different day" - "They are all crooked anyway", and so on.

I dunno, guess I am rambling (listening to a meeting and typing does not mix well....) so I will come back to later.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

71. First some clarification... I'm assuming you are referring to this type of

post... example, optimistic poster says "Bush is toast" or "Bushco finally going down" etc. Glum poster replies "Diebold." or something to that effect.

Yeah it's a downer. Part of it is human nature. We've seen so much of this over the last several years, "Bush is toast" etc. and been let down that it feels like a bad joke. So some respond with these posts.

I'm not one of those who always reacts with these downer posts, but I definitely feel the cynicism. The last time I felt truly optimistic about shrubco being removed was the election last year.

I do feel the probably corrupted vote process is a serious problem for us removing these people. I don't think it's completely irreversible at this point, but every year it seems to get worse. It's still possible I suppose to win a state by state campaign to resist e-voting but it's sure an uphill struggle at this point.

[pitohui]

77. i don't know

it seems like you can get defeatism everywhere

we all get tired sometimes but some ppl like to catastrophize & i believe it is not really meant to harm but more a personality type

think marvin the depressed android

[LoZoccolo]

78. Self-delete; I take this post back. n/t

[GayCanuck]

79. I can relate though

I had my car stolen once while I was in Montreal; I had just purchased a beautiful sapphire bracelet for my partner celebrating our 1st year together and I had it in the glove box. My car was found 3 weeks later, totally stripped and of course, no bracelet. I felt defeated and hopeless, the same feeling you must have with bush having stolen your democracy with fraudulent voting both times.

[Generator]

80. Well I myself, come here for everything

I come here for hope. I come here for outlooks that may or may not be correct in their total despair. I consider all of it and match it against what I know. I don't live in denial. Both total hope-"He's resigning" to total fear "Bush will kill us all" are not realistic but somewhere in between I find some truth.

Sometimes I personally need to air my despair. There are times I'm certain we are doomed. I'm on the fence literally at the moment-because I fear the worst since nothing good as happened since I've been here. Nothing. No victories. Just hanging on-which is not nuthing. It's something..still waiting.. (Roberts..Plame!!..DSM...Iraq..Sibel Edmonds..DeLay..on and on I wait for some real justice..elections? believing Kerry actually won makes arguing about future candidates a little damn dismal-if you don't believe he won-imagine how much easier that is to believe than he got the votes and we are still screwed)

Sometimes I need to laugh. Sometimes I need hope. Sometimes just information. Sometimes gossip. I find it all here.

Refuted? Confirmed? Freepers? Yes to all three. This place is a smorgasboard of stuff. The only complaint I really have is that times it does get a bit-the only word I have for it is-HYSTERICAL-over the freaking top with emotion. It happened during Schiavo. It happened during New Orleans. Sometimes it drains me and I know it's better to log the hell off.

[Sapphire Blue]

84. Calimary's motivational thread... PLEASE READ

This is from calimary's DUERS: THE FIVE-STAR ACTIVISTS' RESOURCE THREAD, UPDATED 7/9/04 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x8816)...

(calimary offers a wonderful antidote to defeatism in the motivational thread below... please read her posts. IMO, it should be named the 'CALIMARY MOTIVATIONAL THREAD')

Post #112. Part Forty-One: The SAPPHIRE BLUE MOTIVATIONAL THREAD:
This one's worth revisiting and keeping.

We got into this discussion that brought out some people's fears, and other people's pep talks. I add it in here because it's like a booster shot. With things going the way they have been, as you can see from some of the posts, it is all too easy to become demoralized. FIRST: DO NOT - repeat - DO NOT kick yourself if you get down. It's HUMAN, okay??!?!??! And considering what we're still up against, it's rawther understandable to think it's pointless to try to do something, or tilt at windmills, if you will. But then, SECOND: BOOT BACK UP... and... (as I've renamed this in my own personal files)

DO IT ANYWAY.

Contact your US Representative - IMPEACH BUSH
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1739608