What is the "Latino vote"?

[Socialist Worker]

As a Latino, every time I hear the pundits on TV talking about the "Latino vote" flames shoot out of my ears. I was born and raised in Miami where pretty much everyone is Latino, and I don't see any group-voting as far as Latinos are concerned. The rich Latinos vote Repub and the lower class ones vote Democrat, with the exception of Cubans who are almost exclusively Republican because they are anti-socialist. So I'd like to know what's up with that.

I'd also like to know where the Americans get off labeling Latinos as a race or ethnicity. There are white-European Latinos (like myself), Chicanos, blacks, mulattos, even German-origin South Americans are considered Latinos, and some SPANIARDS receive affirmative action and Latino scholarship programs. What do you think about that?

[JohnKleeb]

1. I dunno

btw as a European American I am curious to know how many Germans got to South America. Theres a thread in the lounge by breezy on the fascist she has to do for a school report and the guy has a German last name. You are right though, latinos are a diverse group not really a race or ethnicity. Maybe it is money based, why some vote GOP and others Dem, :shrug:

[Socialist Worker]

7. Germans in South America

A great many "Latinos" are actually Jews of German ancestry like Illeana Ros-Lehtinen (supposedly the first Hispanic congresswoman) who is Cuban. Her family converted to Catholicism and she converted to Anglicanism when she wanted to get divorced, so she's not officially Jewish. Her maiden name Ros, by the way, is a modification of Rose.

Other German American Latinos are Jews who immigrated to South America and Central America and the Caribbean either as entrepreneurs or refuges of Nazi Germany.

And then there are the non-Jewish German South Americans. Many of these people, like Adolf Eichmann, were Nazis who wanted to escape judgment. Others were normal Germans just didn't want to live under American and Soviet occupation, and fled to neutral South America.

[JohnKleeb]

9. Thats what I thought

Thanks for explaining. I am part German myself but family has been here since pre US Civil war.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. She certainly doesn't look Hispanic

that clears a lot up.

[Socialist Worker]

21. No, she certainly doesn't.

100% German-Jewish.

[rwenos]

2. You're Saying the Unsayable

"Latino" is an intellectually-meaningless category.

I'm Portuguese (50%), Swedish and English.
My wife is Spanish (from Spain, 50%), German and Scottish.
My kid is Portuguese (25%), Spanish (25%), Swedish, English, German and Scottish.

Is my kid "Latino"? Is my wife? Am I?

[Terwilliger]

3. interesting on both counts

as to your first question, America loves a label. They consider the block net vote value of a group of people, and define them by it.

It's like the homophobic white-male vote...well, wait, that probably is uniform :hi:

[trotsky]

4. What?

Are you trying to tell me that all Latino/Hispanic voters don't just vote for whichever guy speaks the most Spanish words during the campaign? </sarcasm>

That would at least seem to be the impression given by our wonderfully independent media.

[mitchtv]

5. the legal term is Hispanic

that eliminates Latinos(PORT ESP ITAL BRAZ) in calif there are several hispanic categories including Mex Am and one other. Brazilians go by race (I think Espanoles should not be included in AA progams and would guess that it is an abuse.)

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. I would love to discuss this,

but a very bad week for long discussions. Ask again in a week.

:-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. What specific issue prompted this question?

I understand the question, and am simply wondering where it is coming from.

I also thought socialists preferred the term WORKING class over LOWER class.

[mitchtv]

11. you are a suspicious one Nsma

.

[JohnKleeb]

12. hence the name lol

[Socialist Worker]

14. Whatever.

I don't have any complexes. We ARE the lower class. To deny that would be to deny our disadvantage and to kiss the feet of the oppresors.

[WillyBrandt]

10. Poor analysis

As a fellow Latino, I must say that this is pretty self-indulgent and shoddy. The question of whether "Latino" is a meaningful ontological category is very separate from whether folks who call themselves Latino tend to vote in certain ways.

There ARE voting patterns that trend upon ethnic lines, and that applies to the Latino vote as well. But you err in taking Miami as indicative of the Latino population in the country as a whole. Florida is an anomaly; and Miami is the anomaly's anomaly.

First, the great majority of Latinos in the United States are of Mexican descent. This is hard to see in Miami, but stunningly obvious almost everywhere else, except maybe for Queens and Union City.

Second, most Hispanics, regardless of class status, do vote Democratic. The trends are very clear (read the Emerging Democratic Majority for the full stats)--and it's perfectly fine to generalize about voting patterns, lumping disparate "Latino" groups together.

Third, Cuban Americans are the great exception since they tend to
vote Republican (even if they are broke). However, there aren't that many Cubans: they only have an outsized importance because they are a very well organized and politically active group in a closely divided swing state with a large population. (I have a suspicion that the "Rich Latinos" you speak of are Cubans!)

But even the Cuban exception to the Democratic leanings of Latinos is losing relevance. Cubans are shrinking in terms of their population percentage among Latinos in Florida. Moreover, the GOP lcok on them is starting to lose force as younger Cuban voters supplant older ones whose memories of their flight from Castro are still bright and powerful.

[LittleApple81]

13. Not all rich Latinos are Cuban, as you well know.

But if you take a "Latino" and transplant him/her here, he/she will have the same inclinations and voting preferences that he/she had in the country of origin.
I have always been a liberal (in my country of origin and here). My brother in law is a conservative and if he moved to the US he would still be a conservative (like right right right wing repug).

[WillyBrandt]

16. Political views don't always transplant

'But if you take a "Latino" and transplant him/her here, he/she will have the same inclinations and voting preferences that he/she had in the country of origin.'

This really just isn't true. The US is a wholly diff. political climate than other countries, especially in Latin America. Cubans aren't Republican leaning because they were all rich capitalists in Cuba (at all), but because when they first came here a set of political conditions had them fit right into the GOP.

(Virulent anti-Communism appeals to those fleeing Castro, Kennedy's bungling of the bay of pigs hurt the Dems w/ Cubans, etc...)

[Socialist Worker]

18. You tell him.

Plenty of the rich latinos here are upper-class white Brazilians, anti-Chavez Venezuelans, and others. Those who are conservative in their countries of origin are conservative in America. Your views of categorizing Latinos as just one huge voting block is condescending. That condescension is insulting to me, especially when pundits on TV say, "Oh he'll win the Latino vote." There is no Latino vote. We're not a bunch of morons who vote for whoever speaks Spanish, we vote for whoever benefits us financially, just like you Anglos.

[WillyBrandt]

22. There is a Latino vote

"There is no Latino vote. We're not a bunch of morons who vote for whoever speaks Spanish, we vote for whoever benefits us financially, just like you Anglos."

You Anglos? Who are you talking to? Certainly not me. Because politicians are klutzes when trying to appeal to Latino votes, there are no salient generalizations that can be made about Latino voting patterns?

And this evinces a total ignorance of American politics: "we vote for whoever benefits us financially, just like you Anglos."

But America is a famous example of a nation where people don't reliably vote their pocketbook. Look, for instance, as Christian Fundamentalists who tend to be broke, but who vote reliably vote Republicans (Alabama was recently a good test case of this.)

Look at Jewish voters, who tend to vote about 75% Democratic in Presidential elections despite being relatively affluent overall.

Look, again, at Cubans. Given a Cuban and, say, a Puerto Rican with identical incomes and prospects, you're very likely to see the Cuban vote GOP and the Puerto Rican vote Democratic. This despite the fact that they might have the same financial benefits (or pains) as a result of the election.

People develop cultural connections with political parties than go beyond their own financial interests. Politicians, in their clumsy, stupid way, are trying to make and exploit those connections. You're right to mock their efforts: but you'd be wrong to mock them for trying.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. Who would that be?

[JohnKleeb]

24. Apples brother in law I thinks

:shrug:

[rwenos]

15. You're Too Harsh

Your post is closely reasoned (thank you!), but it seems you've missed the point -- most everyone posting so far has ASSUMED that the so-called "Latino vote" is way too fractured to generalize about.

I mentioned the ontological issue because it seems our laws are built on a faulty premise -- i.e., that "Latino" is a racial category, which can be treated in law as a "suspect class," like the others (race) to which the courts have accorded elevated equal protection.

[WillyBrandt]

17. Fair enough

I was too harsh. I'm sorry.

But these are two questions:

(1) Whether Latino is a useful legal category (for things like health care, education, etc.)

(2) Whether Latino is a useful category to use when thinking about political strategy.

I don't know about (1), but I'd say (2) is for sure.

[Socialist Worker]

20. I disagree.

Latino is not a useful category when thinking about political strategy. I am a socialist who votes Democratic, but it is not because I am Latino, it is because I agree IDEOLOGICALLY with socialism and progressivism.

[WillyBrandt]

25. But there are so few of you

Politics is about winning the most votes, not winning the most devoted voters.

For example, in California Clinton got 73 percent of the Latino vote in 96, while Gore got 71 percent in 2000.

You're telling me Latino isn't a useful category for talking about political strategy?

We're talking about tallying votes for election, not for the editorial board of the Daily Worker.

[WillyBrandt]

26. Moreover...

Results like these hold up to a greater or lesser extent even when income is factored out. Maybe you could think of a pastiche of factors that sum together to have the same predictive value politically as "Latino," but that would show the usefulness of the term, not its uselessness.

[Socialist Worker]

27. Well.

This looks like a debate impasse, so I'll quit. I'll just tell you that it makes me feel like a second-class citizen and somehow less American when I see the condescending way the Latinos are spoken of on TV. And Jeb Bush's son speaking Spanish at the Republican National Convention in 2000 was horribly offensive.

[WillyBrandt]

28. You're right

Latinos are crapped on by politicians, especially GOP ones.

If it makes you feel better, there's little to no evidence of this condescending stuff working: the GOP is not gaining any Latino voters and is losing them.

I wish the Dems would not try Spanish unless they REALLY know how to speak it to say more than a few stupid things.

[JanMichael]

29. Stupid question.

While a Socialist/Democrat I am not a Spanish speaker. I'm as "white bread" as they come. However I am hugely interested in the "Hispanic" population. For cultural as well as political reasons.

To the point that I intend to (now that I'm married and can have a partner, a non-Spanish speaking person.) learn the language.

I see that as a necessity as well as a learning experiance.

The stupid question? Do you think that it's worth the effort?

[WillyBrandt]

31. Learning Spanish

Should you try to learn Spanish? Sure, it's a wondeful language!

Should you try to learn it because of your interest in politics? I don't know. It depends on your interests, where you live, how grassroots you want to be--a lot of things.

I personally like Hugo's Learning Latin American Spanish in 3 months myself. Pretty good pace, vocabulary, and coverage of grammar--all without being too overwhelming.

[JanMichael]

35. I used Hugo cd's to learn passable Polish.

They're pretty good.

I'm fairly confident that Spanish won't be as a big problem for me as Polish was.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[West Coast Democrat]

32. Do you still live in Miami, Socialist Worker?

Because I believe there were and are many anti-war activists in the Miami area. As you stated in another thread, why did you feel like an "outcast" for being against the war in Iraq? How come you didn't know anybody who was against the war?

[Solly Mack]

33. I think no "group" votes as a bloc

but it's such a decidedly simple idea as to not ever merit enough attention for a rant...

Imagine...people as individuals....shocking, simply shocking....

[BevHarris]

34. Point well made, but Hispanic political power has become vast

It would behoove any politician to figure this out (and I don't mean using the Bush technique of speaking bad Spanish and assuming that means you'll get all the votes.)

One of my clients, Jose de la Isla, wrote a book called "The Rise of Hispanic Political Power" and in it, he draws the conclusion that no candidate can win a major office today without garnering significant votes from Hispanic citizens (he uses the term Hispanic; I'd heard Latino was more in use, but he says no -- and since Latino also requires Latina when appropriate, I decided to copy Jose.)

Anyway, while it's true that people of Hispanic descent are not a "bloc" -- and as you point out, especially the affluent Cubans, who are pretty right wing -- isn't it also true that the preponderance of Hispanic votes do go Democrat?

People of color still deal with a lot of issues in this country that don't receive adequate responses from Republicans, and it is also true that many -- not all -- of Hispanic origin are affected by issues of race.

Bev