Can we please settle "the buses" question once and for all?

[Duer 157099]

It's so annoying to continually hear the same thing, that there were 2000 school buses, just sitting there, why weren't they used for evacuation?

Even Dean didn't clearly answer this just now with Wolf, and he could have done so.

Let's compile the best answers to get this stupid question to die!

[Serial Mom]

1. My thought .. how do you get drivers there on a weekend?

and they had their own families to try to evac

I also believe there were mistakes made at the local level, but feel that getting 80% of the population out of NO was pretty good.

Their mistake was not hving 90,000 meals ready in the Superdome ... I am sure they were prepared for a 24 hour situation with the winds and rain of a hurricane and thought people could go back to their homes in a day or 2, they did not prepare for the flooding and keeping that many people there for that many days.

The feds should have been ready to come in Tuesday morning when the levee's broke!

[Avalux]

2. AND WHERE WOULD THEY HAVE GONE?

Really - 2000 buses, 2000 bus drivers, thousands of people, going where???

[etherealtruth]

9. That's been my question ... ?

Where could they have gone SAFELY?????

[meti57b]

12. Were the keys in the buses? That there were not trained bus drivers is not

a reason they weren't used. A lot of people would think they could drive a bus and they probably could if took it real slow around the curves. More likely they weren't used because the people who didn't have other transportation were also the people who refused to leave because what little they had was right there in New Orleans. People who didn't have other transportation may not have been able to even drive a car, let alone a bus.

[RC]

18. 2000 buses at 40 passingers each = 8000 people - 30,000

people = 22,000 left, right?

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. Nagin did use school buses and city buses

Why is there even a question?

[Avalux]

4. Wolfie showed a pic of the school buses underwater. n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

19. So? It would be impossible to use them all under the circumstances

Beside the school buses were not suitable for evacuation out of the city. Three people died on one going to Baton Rouge. That was one of the reasons Nagin asked FEMA to send touring buses. Of course, FEMA never sent anything, they were all still on vacation.

Nagin did also arrange for people to picked up at 12 locations around the city and broadcast an 800 # for people to call who needed rides. Nagin did everything he could and more.

[RandiFan1290]

10. It is about getting everyone out of the city

FEMA would have to be involved with something that massive. The shelters they have now would have to ready and waiting to receive those busses. It is beyond the capabilities of the City and State.

[Beaverhausen]

14. He used City Buses- they are air conditioned

Randi read the pick up and drop off points on her show

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. Yes, he did. I am listening to Randi Rhodes and she said they

were used as per evacuation plans to get people to safety to the Superdome.

[Gabi Hayes]

5. couldn't agree more, and I thought Dean, contrary to the opinion of many

here--other threads--did a POOR job responding to the bus question, and was evasive in his answer.

I WANT somebody to smack em back when that question comes up, but dems clearly do NOT have a Barbara Comstock boiler room at their disposal

they should have answers for EACH and EVERY RW talking point being spat out like machine gun bullets

if they HAD such ready responses to smack BS like this down, they would NOT gain purchase and be repeated endlessly by the likes of Blitzershills in the M$M media

[Be Brave]

6. Here is some info about buses and pick-up points.

From WWL TV:

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL082705nagin.b7724856.html

He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.

Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing.

His pickup spots were:

Martin Luther King Elementary.

William Franz Elementary.

Warren Easton High School.

Israel Augustine School.

McMain Magnet School.

Sylvanie Williams Elementary School.

Rabouin School.

Arthur Mondy in Algiers.

O. Perry Walker High School.

Abramson High School.

Sara T. Reed School

New Orleans Mission

[Gabi Hayes]

11. that's all well and good, but, unfortunately, that picture of the buses

under water is maybe the wingnuts' best image, and their non-use might be their best single talking point

maybe I'd say something about the FACT that nobody MADE those people in the second tower get the HELL out after the first one was hit

does not answer the bus question, but takes the page out of the pugs' book of deflecting when there's no good, sound-bitey answer to difficult questions

[DoYouEverWonder]

32. Good find

Thank you. I had other citations, but that is the best one so far.

[napi21]

I don't have confirmation, but I did hear that the Mayor issued

a mandatory evacuation of the City, and the bus drivers left!!!

The other story I heard was that NO has only 3 roads out of the City. All of them were totally clogged with stopped traffic...people trying to get out. Just how were 2,000 busses going to evacuate too? (Even if they could have found 2,000 drivers!)

I don't have any confirmation on any of this.

[noahmijo]

7. Where are you going to get the drivers?

Even cops just bolted to save their own families.

What makes you think bus drivers were going to stick around?

Secondly 80% of the people were evacuated....pretty good action for an "incompetent" mayor it beat FEMA's standards even.

[Walt Starr]

8. Seeing as how they evacuated 20% more of the population than planned

I'd say the local officials performed in an UNPRECEDENTED MANNER!

In fact, their success amde the failures of the feds have less of an impact than if they had only performed to the level planned.

http://democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20050909123505-34183.doc

[snappyturtle]

13. Dean tried...

but if you remember he barely got a syllable out of his mouth and Wolf was inserting his shoe and then it was on to the next question. But, Dean COULD have said--let me answer--or something!:shrug:

[Duer 157099]

15. agree, Wolf was being very rude

and Dean didn't speak up and say STFU and let me answer, dammit!

[meti57b]

16. What is with the "LA homeland security wouldn't let the Red Cross

into the superdome" story? That is the one I keep seeing.

[Imagevision]

17. Drivers is no issue - if you can drive a car, you can make do with a bus

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[Mairead]

20. There is no "settle" because the truth and what people here

desperately want the truth to have been are completely different. So all you're going to get is the DU analog of BushCo's "nobody could have known" song (as you can see in the other responses).

The reality--the truth--is that there were maybe a thousand busses that could have been used the same way Jabbar Gibson used the one he took responsibility for.

But they were left to sit and be drowned by the floodwaters instead.

That's the real truth.

There was at least a 36hr window available. It took Jabbar 7 hours to drive to Houston evacuating "50-70" people (per the news reports). That means the busses could have made 2.5 round trips before the storm hit. 1000 busses x 50 people x 2.5 trips. 150,000 people. Or 100K people and their non-human family members.

How many poor people, human and non-, died because that evacuation didn't happen? More than one, I bet.

But for reasons of partisan politics, too many DUers don't want to acknowledge that, just like, for reasons of partisan politics, BushCo sings the "Nobody could have known" lie.

[Dastard Stepchild]

21. Well... did they have the resources to organize the evacuation?

I mean, you can have 2000 buses, but if you don't have a system in place to coordinate the filling and transporting of said buses, then it really is a useless physical resource.
Prior to the hurricane's landfall, Nagin had only the police force to draw from at that time, and as they would be required to maintain overall city order, there simply was not the resources available to coordinate that massive effort.
I mean, it takes 5 chaperones and a teacher to get a class of 25 kiddies to the zoo via a school bus.

[Gabi Hayes]

24. the obvious response to that is: where was the plan?

some lying cow on WHYY (former speech writer for Quayle....Lisa Schifrin, I think) mentioned on a talk show that there was some sort of plan in effect for using buses, but that it wasn't used. she said some other stuff about the failure of "Naygur" and Blanco, but she also lied her fat ass off about the time lag in response of NatGuard/FEMA etc., changing her own story from a 2 day lag to 1 day later on. She told the classic lie about Blanco not having declared disaster area, the one the WashPost helped spread, but was called on that. Unfortunately, the ill informed hostess (Marti?) and her dem guest were unaware (WHY???????) of General Keating, Sean Kelly and the Northern Command's readiness BEFORE the fact, and their having to WAIT for Bush's order, which didn't come until DAYS and DAYS after they were already in place, having begun their mobilization while Katrina was huffing across Florida.

but then, everybody here knows that

too bad dems don't come here and find out what's going on

[Dastard Stepchild]

31. oh..my aching head.....

I wish that the moderator would have had the information necessary to hand the guest her own ass on a platter. Listen, if I can troll the internet for useful information, why can't the damn press?
sigh........

[holeinthedonut]

22. The Evcacuation worked to near "perfection"

Give up this discussion about how the evacuation was handled. 80% of the people in NOLA were evacuated. That is a HUGE number, more than ANYONE, expert, computer, ANYONE predicted. More than any previous evacuation by thousands.

There would NEVER EVER EVER have been a complete evacuation of NOLA in anticipation of a hurricane.

GET REAL 80% is fantastic.

If every citizen had a rocket strapped to thier white millionaire backs and 50 years of warning we would have evacuated maybe 81%.

Am I the only person on earth that has a clue about human nature combined with New Orelans hurricane experience?

Thanks for listening.

[Gabi Hayes]

25. too bad Dean didn't say that to Leslie....a nice brief SOUNDBITE

like that would be hard to counter

when are dems going to wise up and have a soundbite bank at the ready, just like the fascists do?

[watrwefitinfor]

30. Welcome to DU, donut!

You lay it out perfectly.

I also wonder why no one seems to grasp that using the RTA buses as they did - getting so many people bused into the shelters of last resort was also a success. It no doubt saved untold lives. Had FEMA done what they were supposed to and got in there with water, etc. into the Dome & Convention Center, and had the Guard been on hand to send in to patrol the shelters - or to relieve the N.O. cops so they could patrol - it is doubtful such horrific conditions and events would have taken place on the scale they did.

Wat

[EC]

23. Now, wait a minute, when did it get up to 2000 buses?

last I heard was between 160 - 200.

And who would decide who would be saved?
Who decides who rides the bus?
How do you handle a riot and an evacuation? (because there would have been a riot if you have to pick a few to save)
Drivers?
Gas?
Access out?


it's called Priority - Getting the remaining into shelters was the Priority, since it was impossible to accommodate all to get them out, the mayor did have a total evacuation plan Operation Brother's Keeper, in which churches would enlist members with cars to offer rides to the have-nots. But of course that didn't happen, everyone for themselves...

[Mairead]

29. There were maybe 1000 busses...the 2000 is a misunderstanding

The school district had about 500 school busses, and there were about 500 others (muni and commercial)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. The buses are IRRELEVANT

See my thread with that exact title here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4715653

[dave502d]

28. Who needed the buses with out the flood.

When the flood came it took out the buses.

[MichiganVote]

33. 2000 buses is incorrect. Get a grip, school buses in the middle

of a hurricane? How many republicans left town without offering a ride to anyone?