Okay. I'm going to say it. STOP ATTACKING REGISTERED REPUBLICANS!!!

[Just Me]

Americans who are registered Republicans are NOT NOT NOT at fault for having been manipulated, exploited and abused by those corporacratic, anti-democracy PRICKS who are destroying ALL AMERICANS.

Get a damn handle on reality!!!

This regime has betrayed and exploited ALL AMERICANS!!! Please, do NOT spread the cancer of this horrific regime in whom people invested trust and purpose.

IT'S NOT OUR PEOPLE'S FAULT!!!! IT'S NOT OUR PEOPLE'S FAULT!!!

Distinguish the abusers from the abused.

We are ALL AMERICANS. We have ALL BEEN BETRAYED, MANIPULATED, USED, ABUSED & EXPLOITED!!!! WE MUST UNITE AGAINST THIS ABUSIVE R-U-L-E!!!

[merwin]

1. Bill O'Reilly is a registered Republican, and sadly an American as well.

Enough said.

[Just Me]

23. Why should that prick be given the honor of "representative"?

He's an asshole who does whatever it takes to exploit and profit off human fear and anger and confusion and weakness!!!

He is a WEAK HUMAN BEING with no strength to tolerate differences or cope with change or deal with his own personal failure.

[laureloak]

149. Not enough said. My husband and his mother are registered

Republicans and neither voted for Bush.

[Der Blaue Engel]

2. Uh.....

If they voted for him, and if they still support him, I'll attack them all I want.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. I agree, if they still support him

Particularly if they are peddling the R/W blame the locals and racist bullshit. Those are NOT my people!

[DURHAM D]

3. I call b.s. Registered repugs voted in Bush, the majority in

the House and Senate, support the corp. media whores and the changes in the courts because of their ignorance. Ignorance is no excuse. If they don't confess their mistakes - f them.

[politicaholic]

79. I agree, all of a sudden we're supposed to coddled to these pricks?

I know a few really nice republicans, but the only reason I can handle them is because they NEVER TALK POLITICS. Why? Because they don't give a shit what happens to this country beyond their yard and their tax return.

It's the registered republicans living in sheltered worlds who perpetuate this greedy loud mouthed American stereo type, why?, because they worship greedy loud mouthed Americans like Rush Limbaugh.

Mercy is given to the merciful.

[carl_pwccaman]

215. So respond to the crap that's dished out and leave it at that.

There is no reason to attack someone for venom that they are NOT spewing, or for views that they do NOT support, or for things that they have NOT done.

So when a Republican admits to voting, well they voted. Ever vote just a little wrong, ever? People vote differently, that's what you should expect.

But do they scapegoat liberals, homosexuals, and feminists? Then respond to that poison accordingly. If not, then it can be brought up, but no need to treat them like a bigot if they don't show themselves to be one. You can fish for bigotry and try to either educate them or shame them, but they can put their own foot in their mouth, your own jack-boot isn't a substitute.

No I don't think we can coddle them. But we can appeal to reason FIRST, and respond to nonsense AS IT IS DISHED OUT. And do this a bit more reasonably and strategically.

They do deserve the response they ask for. On that I agree.

[Pushed To The Left]

220. Excelling points n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I always differentiate between

Republicans and repukes. The former are those who might be registerd Republicans but who actually have a trace of humanity and believe in the Constitution, fiscal responsibility, etc. The latter are KoolAid drinkers who believe that Bush is the Second Coming and will do anything to keep him in power.

[FreedomAngel82]

66. Yes

There were republicans who voted for Kerry last year.

[Ladyhawk]

148. What about people like my mother who are both good and evil?

I call them "chaotics." She's all for the neo-fascist agenda, but she does and says things that show her human side, too. Sometimes she's an out-and-out saint.

I don't know about you, but people like this make me feel crazy. If a person is very good or very evil, I know how to deal with him or her. If a person is an equal mixture--especially if you love that person--it becomes hell.

[aquart]

5. Aww, now they want sympathy for their heartless greed.

Uh, no.

[NoSheep]

6. Please tell me one good reason why ANYONE should be a

"Registered Republican" in the first place. Just one. I dare you.

[NoSheep]

83. Still can't give me a reason. Well I'll be Dayumed.

:wtf:

[autorank]

7. Just members of BushCo; the others are all potential votes for us.

If he's got 36%-41% approval, that means that we're pulling Republicans now. We'll take them. They shouldn't win a coastal state ever again and there are self-identified Republicans there who have shifted heavily in our direction.

I hate to compliment this guy, but I watched Scarborough yesterday. I wanted to compare him to the previous week when he was cleaning Bush's clock. He's still doing it. He had some cultural conservative on, executive in a con media group. This fellow, a minister from NOLA, was just adamant about the poor federal response. Scarborough piled on. He had a Republican buddy of his on, a doctor, who tried to deliver vaccines. The guy said, he' I'm a Republican but this response totally sucks. It was clear the guy had total contempt for Bush and FEMA.

Soooo, any votes from anywhere...now lets make sure they're cast and counted fairly.

[sandnsea]

8. If they're still in denial

They're the abusers, not the victims. Maybe that's what some Democrats haven't figured out yet, there are a group of Americans who LIKE Bush because they are EXACTLY LIKE HIM. They aren't going to change.

[kansasblue]

9. Not all Republicans voted for Bush.

[justiceischeap]

I have a co-worker who's a registered Republican

And he voted for Kerry... He's a democrat at heart, many of us have been trying to talk him down. ;)

[nonconformist]

10. It's called enabling.

Without it, they couldn't do anything.

[Just Me]

44. Are WE ENABLING?

:shrug:

Think about it.

If we focus our anger on a "party", are we enabling the abusers?

Think about it.

[Zenlitened]

56. Huh?

Double-:shrug:

[ProfessorGAC]

60. Zen Says "Huh? " I Say, No We Are Not Enablers

The very question lacks even a semblance of logic.
The Professor

[Zenlitened]

64. I think you got further with it than I did. I'm still looking for my...

... Magic Decoder ring! :D

:hi:

[Just Me]

65. Associating a "people" with any "icon" is discrimination.

"semblance of logic".

The current regime is an "icon" of a political party that is being just as abused as the rest of humanity. They are not responsible for that abuse.

[Zenlitened]

78. I don't think you're making a strong argument at all.

You insist on viewing this in terms of blame, when in fact it's a matter of responsibility.

They have a responsibility to communicate their dissatisfaction with their party.

And one of the most effective ways to do that is to switch their party affiliation from republican to independent, Democratic... anything.

People with principles will do that. People who choose not to, have compromised their own principles.

[Bluerthanblue]

87. why???? tell me WHY ZEN 'inlightened' why would

ANYONE who realized they have been embracing the wrong 'party' or allowing themselves to be 'counted' among the 'republicans' speak up???
So they could get beaten to shit by those of their own 'party' and dissed and hated by those who claim to be better?????

FUCK THIS SHIT-

ZEN is a truly beautiful, really difficult, but so humbling belief system. And one that would NEVER give creedence to the opinion that because someone is 'seen' as being in a certian 'affiliation' they are the enemy, and implicitly bad.

PERSONAL responsibility is what Just Me is spaking to- and for -as I hear it- please correct me if i am hearing you wrong Just Me.-

Maybe i'm just desperately looking for someone else "who can feel the lump, and doesn't want to 'pretend' it isn't there, hoping it will go away."

[Zenlitened]

95. I think you are hearing me wrong, at least to some extent.

What I'm saying is that a person can reveal character flaws OR positive attributes by the choices they make, by the company they keep, by the views they articulate. That's where the responsibility lies.

And I really take exception to your suggestion that someone would be subject to violence and harassment for opting out of the republican party. I know all too well what it's like to be dissed, hated and yes beaten simply for being different. And it ain't about saying "I'm not a Republican."

MILLIONS of people in this country know all too well what it's like to be singled out as "less than" simply for who they are. And it ain't because they switched political parties.

That line of argument is deeply offensive, in my view. I don't claim to be a Zen master -- that's why I spelled it "lite" in my username. But I have managed to learn a little bit about the consequences of the choices we make, the content of the character we choose to reveal, and the the things we reveal about ourselves by conduct in which we engage.

:peace:

[Bluerthanblue]

99. if you

claim that the 'company you keep' is a measure of how you will be judged, then i guess that speaks FOR you- because the hatred and predjuce i'm hearing from this forum is every bit as caustic and evil as the hatred that you say you despise.

and there is no place in this world for those who refuse to hate- in response to 'hate'-

Gandhi and MLK proved that-

not a trip most desire to embark upon, but looking better every day.

[Zenlitened]

107. Well, I think you have failed to see the point. It may be that...

... you are so primed to see "hate," when in fact what you're witnessing is righteous indignation, that you're just not able to see the point.

I think it's very sad and very troubling that you equate registered republicans with some sort of oppressed minority group, and see criticism of their choices as a form of prejudice. That's just incomprehensible to me! Astonishing!

It certainly suggests that you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on this any time soon. That's life, I suppose. Goodnight.

[Bluerthanblue]

116. oh, not primed...

not WANTING to see this at ALL Zenlitened- exactly the opposite-
Wanting to believe against ALL ODDS that there IS a 'group' of like minded people where i can feel like i am neither judged nor represented by the most vocal, or radical-

Hate is in this description of the word BIGOT-

not very comfortable- i don't hate you for your position. but i sure as hell hate the belief you are espousing.-

bigotry from Houghton Mifflin

noun

Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion: intolerance, prejudice. See like/dislike.

[Zenlitened]

120. Ah, but my suspicion of Republicans is not at all irrational, is it?

Don't I have every reason to be angry with them? Upset with them for the choices they've made, the candidates they've supported, the party they've propped up?

Anger is not hate.

Until you get past that hang-up in your analysis, you know NOTHING about the beliefs I'm espousing. Until you stop insisting that my criticism of a person for the group with which he self-identifies equates to "prejudice," you know NOTHING about the beliefs I'm espousing.

You simply do not understand. And no amount of invoking the names of Gandhi and MLK in defense of republicans will change that fact: You just don't get it.

[Bluerthanblue]

135. you

don't know what you are saying.

I'm the mother of a black son.... i KNOW what it is like to be judged 'less than' by others simply because of affiliation with a group.

I've been judged by some in the black community as a 'do-gooder, trying to make a white boy outa him' and by those of my own race as being a "n..... lover". My own mother among them. so please don't tell me what i know. or don't know. i know more than i want to.

And i see life as it really is- not as i wish it were. There are republicans that are scum- there are also democrats who are too. That is my point- that is my 'agenda'

Judge individuals- by their actions, words, and deeds. anything less is bigotry.

[Zenlitened]

139. Please see my post #137.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4702190&mesg_id=4704179

Goodnight. :)

[Just Me]

177. STOP THE HATE, "ZENLITENED" ONE!!!!

Attack the bastards who profit from division and exploitation.

Please, please,...focus.

[U4ikLefty]

216. Yeah Zen, "STOP THE HATE"...they're the "good Germans"

:sarcasm:

[Bluerthanblue]

222. no, BE the hate

you see in the world- and do it under the rightous 'democratic' banner- cause 'they' deserve what they get, them no good fellow humans, who done everyone wrong, while we lived so 'good' and clean and noble.

:sarcasm:

Revenge is the weapon we hold by the blade.

[U4ikLefty]

225. no, use absurd sanctimony to abuse Democrats & call their righteous

anger "hate" becaue you don't like some folks bad attitude.

Applying negative attributes to progressives only hurts your argument. There is no moral equvalence between the Demoractic idea of inclusion, versus the Rethug ideal of exclusion since the days of Segregatrion...now THAT'S hate!!!

I'll continue to razz & argue with the "Good Germans" who defnd Bu$h. And if I see a Hummer with a "W" sticker on it...I'm passing on by.

[Just Me]

89. The BushCO/neoCON regime DOES NOT REPRESENT,...

,...MY neighbors and co-workers who are registered Republicans and DAMN FINE AMERICAN PEOPLE!!! They treat me with decency and dignity and compassion. They even take care of me, from time to time!!!

THEY are not to blame and THEY are NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE BUSHCO/NEOCON TRAITORS!!!

You demand to reject that reality. You demand displacement of responsibility on a "people" associated with extremists. That is bullshit!!!

[I Have A Dream]

92. These same good people put articles out at my work blaming...

the New Orleans victims for what happened to them. These are the people that I can't forgive at this point. They will say and do anything to win. These are not party heads; they are everyday Americans who have "drunk the Kool-aid". To them, B* can do anything without having to answer or be accountable for anything. He is to get all praise but no blame. These are the people who are responsible for what is currently happening in our country.

[Just Me]

98. NO! THEY DON'T!!! The coordination of the right-wing radicals,...

,...or the wacked-out "victims" are NOT representative of the majority of people!!!

I am telling you,...the VAST majority of people JUST WANT PEACE. They AVOID involvement in all the pain that the BushCO/neoCONSTERS are imposing.

DO NOT ALLOW A FEW EXTREMISTS COLOR THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA!!!

[I Have A Dream]

109. I hate to say it but this is not the case where I work.

90% of the people are strong B* supporters. Over 50% of them are extremely invested in keeping things exactly the way they are. I wish what you were saying were true where I work, but it's not. I like these people, but I no longer respect them.

For a long time, I've thought the same thing that you're saying here. (That they've been hoodwinked.) However, to not see any problem with what the B* regime is doing at this point in the game makes one either very stupid (which is not the case where I work) or makes them part of the problem, in my opinion.

[Zenlitened]

113. "They AVOID involvement." Well, there you have it. That's called...

... turning a blind eye. That's called enabling.

And that is MORALLY WRONG.

Exclamation point.

[Just Me]

125. You ACT like there is NO human populace that feels POWERLESS!!!

Visit reality, PUH-LEASE!!!

DAMN!!!

I don't know what fucking planet you live on but the VAST MAJORITY of us human beings are just doing the best we can with circumstances WE NEVER CHOSE!!!!

Get OFF the pillar and COME DOWN TO HUMANITY,...if you are willing!!!

Geez!!!

[Zenlitened]

132. "... circumstances WE NEVER CHOSE!!!!" Are you for real?

People CHOOSE which political party they affiliate with.

Are you for real?

:wow:

[Bluerthanblue]

147. i personally know of two registered republicans

who are STILL registered, who did NOT vote for bush in the last election- and didn't want to see him installed as 'leader' - are they 'bad' because they refuse to shake your 'right hand of fellowship'?
One of them marched with me against the Gulf war with bush-daddy. Should i say that SHE is evil because she chooses to keep her affiliation with the 'republican party'??? THAT is, in the clearest sense of the word PREDJUCE-.

How many dems dissed Kerry, and continue too? But they are under the 'big tent' so absolution is granted.

psssshawwww-

This feels like an argument with a 'republican' right wing nut'-

How's that for 'fair'?

You don't agree with me, then you must be 'one of them'-

:sarcasm:

[Zenlitened]

150. Uh, thanks for that, Bluerthanblue. How ironic that the most hateful...

... statements come from those preaching about hate.

[Bluerthanblue]

151. i'm mirroring your

position-
Doesn't work very well does it?

You DO see the point.

And you don't have to 'admit' it- or apologize for it, or pass any 'criteria'- you only have to live it, and with yourself.

peace-

[Zenlitened]

152. Uh, no. You're not getting yourself off the hook so easily.

You've definitely demonstrated the content of your character here tonight, and no passive-aggressive use of smilies, no back-tracking claims of "uh, I was just showin' ya"... none of that can change the fact.

I'm sorry that I ever even tried to engage you in dialogue.

:puke:

[Bluerthanblue]

161. huh? passive/agressive? backtracking???

what the hell is your point?

The fact that when you are treated as you advocate treating others complete with the acknowledgement is SARCASM- is backtracking???

Puke all you like- Remember your words have power- the power to kill and the power to give life-
There is a BEAUTIFUL Zen story about it- it speaks and teaches much better than i ever could-

Being 'dissed' hurts doesn't it? Why do it then?

You affiliate yourself with Zen- but your talk doesn't match- that doesn't mean you are a bad person. It does mean that perhaps you don't know as much about the Zen masters as you should, if you are going to claim their covering.

peace.

[Zenlitened]

175. *shakes head*

You truly, simply do not -- cannot? will not? -- understand a single thing that's been said to you.

This has been a real eye-opener for me, I have to say.

People will cling madly to the most spurious of arguments, project all their shortcomings onto those around them, hurl insults in the very same breath they claim some sort of moral high-ground...

Wow.

And finally, when you've done everything you can to obscure the essential hollowness of your position... then you try to make some grand point based on my DU nickname? Oh, man. How pathetic. How sad.

What a truly grotesque encounter this has been. In your zeal to spring to the defense of republicans, in your repeated insistence that they are victims of the sort championed by MLK and Gandhi, in your profound, profound misunderstanding of what it means to be a responsible human being in a sane society... it's been a trip. A real trip.

I fear for my country, I fear for my party... and this conversation is sure to give me nightmares for a long time to come.

But thanks. Really, thanks. It's been quite an education tonight, however grim the knowledge gained.

[Bluerthanblue]

192. I have...

desire to wound or hurt you Zenlitened. But i cannot stand by idly and defend those who choose yes CHOOSE to condemn a group of people who hold opinions and beliefs which run almost 180 degrees counter to mine, as being completly evil.
And THAT was the voice of the OP. Do i hold bush and his apointees accountable for the actions they have taken? Absolutely yes. But i refuse to label all those who call themselves or identify themselves as republicans, as the equivlient of the man "bush" himself, or those working for and with him to kill and destroy.

I am an american citizen. As such, i should be hated, condemned, and blamed for every action taken by this administration. The only way to 'exempt' myself from this would be to denounce my affiliation to america? Regardless of how i may scream, march, vote, beg, cry, argue etc. with my nation, the actions have gone on. And my voice has not been heard in ANY way that makes a difference- When i read your perspective, the only recourse i would have to 'redeem' myself, or have any 'hope' of not being 'complicit' in this evil administration, would be to leave the country???

I don't know how to phrase this so you can hear what you are saying- but my anger, and mirroring your own views back to you don't seem to have worked.

I DO believe you desire better for all humanity- but that 'better' cannot be achieved by clumping groups together, and calling 'them' bad.

Because in TRUTH- we ALL are bad, and we ALL are wrong. And our 'wrongs' may seem insignificant to us, but to those who are the victims of what we do- they are anything but.

I don't 'fear' for any country or party Zenlitened. I feel great sorrow for the world, and all that live upon it. Because we humans of all 'kinds' are reaping a harvest of hatred, hurt, and greed.

And NONE of us wants to face that fact.

Even when we close our eyes, and our minds, the cancer grows.-

i DO wish you peace, i'm sorry my words have been so tempered with anger- i am a very fallible human. And i have failed once again to speak what i believe to be truth, in a way which can be heard.

blu

[U4ikLefty]

210. Well done Zen

[I Have A Dream]

153. I could understand your argument if you were saying don't blame...

the Iraqis for what Saddam did. They had no contol over his being in power.

However, to say that one shouldn't hold B* regime supporters accountable for what B* is doing doesn't make sense to me. I could even understand someone saying what you're saying before the 2004 election (to a certain degree). However, many people who voted for B* in 2000 again voted for him in 2004 even after the mess that he made of everything that he touched during his first term in office. The people who voted for him again in 2004 are the people that are to some degree responsible for this mess. However, I even feel sympathy for those B* voters who have since realized the mistake that they made in the last election. Bottom line: I must hold those that still support the B* regime (even after this tragedy in New Orleans) responsible for any further damage that the B* regime inflicts on the world.

In reference to a "human populace that feels powerless", I think that this describes the left rather than the right.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

188. Sins of omission

are sins just the same

[Bluerthanblue]

111. "These people"...

you know, that phrase in bush's ...'speech' today really put a hair across my ass.

"These people" aren't a 'thing'- They ARE individuals, are as diverse and unique as snowflakes and fingerprints.

When you class all people into a 'trash' pile, simply due to ANYTHING other than their individual character, you are doing exactly what you claim to hate about 'them'- and you are drunk with your own brand of Kool-aid.

Flip side maybe, but it's still a bad coin.

[Zenlitened]

115. Now you're just inventing trouble where there is none.

The poster said "these same people." It was not a "those people" sort of statement, as you are suggesting here. :grr:

[I Have A Dream]

123. The phrase "these people" means those people who are actually doing...

what I'm saying they're doing. It's not accusing anyone of doing something that they're not doing. They are "these people" in reference to this discussion.

[Bluerthanblue]

140. if you are

refering to a group of individuals you have personally discussed opinions with, then i apologize for not understanding or comprehending you. THAT is precisley what i advocate, and would encourage.

However, this discussion was (if i'm not mistaken again) originally about the notion of classing ALL Republicans as 'bad'- usless, hateful, no-counts- evil- selfish- blind- ugly... every negative attribute you can think of- simply based on the fact that they 'belong' (whatever that means) to the 'republican party'.

If you were speaking of specific individuals,- then you are doing no less than anyone ought to. Look around DU though, there is an awful lot of 'lumping' going on, in the name of 'we're the good guys, they are shit'- guise. And to not speak up against that, is to allow the cancer to grow.

Again, if you are not speaking in 'blanket' condemnation, then I apologize- THAT is where I have a problem- not with individual accountability.

[Zenlitened]

102. As I say, I think your argument started out weak and has...

... deteriorated from there.

Let me say this plainly: Your neighbors and co-workers are not "damn fine American people" if they do not speak out and reject the republican party leadership. A great way to do so it to quit the party. It's a powerful and principled statement. By failing to do so, they relinquish a little bit, slip down the scale a few notches. And I don't know why they would choose to do that.

As to your statements regarding "rejecting reality" and "displacement of responsibility," I frankly have no real idea what you're talking about. You're using words, stringing them together, but not communicating anything in a meaningful way.

You can call "bullshit" as much as you want. You can use ALL CAPS and exclamation points until the screen is filled. But you have failed to make your case and, worse yet, failed to learn anything from the responses you've received. :(

[Just Me]

122. In that case, your "name" does not fit your advocacy.

Your assertions BLAME the powerless rather than the powerful.

Your propositions FAIL to EMPOWER the people by blaming them, imposing guilt upon them.

Instead of focusing upon the power of the people, your positions beat them up, for failing to be as powerful as the assholes who have betrayed them.

Your assertions are hurtful,"zenlitened",...whatever the fuck that means.

[Zenlitened]

129. I've said this once already, I'll say it again: By viewing this...

... in terms of Democrats "blaming" Republicans, your whole argument falls utterly flat.

Democrats are holding Republicans accountable for their choices. That's how a society functions -- when we are held accountable for what we do and what we advocate BY OUR ACTIONS, and by THE ACTIONS WE OMIT. Exclamation point.

No one is "beating people up" simply by advising them to quit a poilitical party. They've been betrayed? Then they can step away from it. That's what adults do. That's what people who are being honest with themselves do.

Frankly, the fact that you've descended to the point where you're trying to score rhetorical points by riffing on my username... well, it tells me your argument is nonsense and you know it.

[Bluerthanblue]

126. by your reasoning

then there are a hell of alot of democrats who are getting a 'free pass' - maybe they didn't even vote, just left their registration to 'speak' for them. You are placing a burden on republicans that you refuse to put on dems-

The whole point is Zen- that if your neighbor says Bush is my hero- you have some reason to challenge that particular person and ask if they accept their responsibility for- and the approval of the MANY acts of malice, killing, and wrongdoing their 'hero' has committed.

But to 'class' all under the banner of 'republican' as being bad, or having to prove themselves individually 'good' in your eyes (and automaticly bad to begin with) is a bit hyprocritical and bigoted don't you think?? Where is the litmus test for those of us who say we're 'dems'?? "We" then, are no better than 'them' we are just the polar opposite.

This isn't a 'debate' in my view- nor is it a 'trial'- it is a discussion about where or IF this 'tent' is one that is worth standing under, if it is as filled with holes and tears, and surrounded by chains as the others available.

It is an attempt to get everyone to THINK for themselves- not just be a 'pee-ple' not blindly join onto any agenda, because it 'feels' good, or because 'they did it first' or because it hurts to be a voice crying in a wilderness.

I do believe you hear- i hope you do....

(a guy shouted that at a rally i was at a few weeks ago, and i went and spoke to him personally, and yes he IS a fool-, but not because he his a 'republican' rather because he continues to his rope, even when it holds the bodies of dead people)

[Zenlitened]

137. How do you know I don't hold non-voting Dems accountable...

... in some way? You don't know that, so you shouldn't insert that sort of claim into the discussion.

And again, with the talk of "bigotry." It doesn't fly. It simply does not fly, as I've explained several times.

Big tent? They're welcome to come in. To do so they must, by definition, articulate in some way that they no longer support whatever it is that the republican party has become. Is that a litmus test? I suppose so. But then, the very concept of voting is a litmus test, isn't it?

As for getting people to think for themselves, that exactly what the whole "you should quit the republican party" conversation is about. It really is.

Look, I said goodnight a while back, and now I really do have to log off. I honestly have tried to address your concerns, demonstrate how the debate can be re-framed, but it doesn't seem that we're going to see eye to eye. I can live with that, as I'm sure you can too. :)

:hi:

[ProfessorGAC]

81. Of Course They Are

This is a democratic republic, and these people supported and voted for these cretins. They are responsible. They identify themselves with the party run by these criminals, they enabled them by voting for them and parroting their anti-liberal talking points, and now they are guilty of being part of the problem.

Your inability to see that is on you, not on me. They are not being abused as much as the rest of humanity. They are, at the very least, tangentially responsible for not rising up when the abuses were obvious to anyone who was more interested in truth and justice than party politics.

You've already lost this debate. Try to recognize it, please, and just drop it.
The Professor

[Bluerthanblue]

91. i voted for Kerry- but

that truth, in NO WAY absolves me from any responsibility for the wrong this country does.

Being a 'dem' or a 'Kerry supporter" or "liberal" isn't some kind of 'get out of responsibility free" card.

So where do you put our fellow 'dems' that voted for Nader????? they should be 'even worse' than those who voted for 'bush' cause they were one of 'us' and KNEW better, but betrayed us'-

What the fuck good does that do anyone?????

Just Me hasn't lost anything- seems like Just Me has found something very valuable.

But that's my 'take' on it- obviously if you're not in the masses, you should just skip the 'classes'.

The pendulum swings both ways, and it's sharp at all times-
Can't someone see this, and say STOP without being drowned out?

[Raksha]

121. They are NOT the abused, they are the abusers!

Some of them are still actively cooperating in their own self-delusion. Fuck 'em.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

185. Oh yes they are

When you sit back and let it happen, even enable it to happen then yes you are responsible.

Abused? How prey tell are they being abused?

[KCS72000]

104. Enabling

In the scenario where *bush was on the defensive since the day he was selected and the relentless pressure of dissent in the
country (which was successfully hidden by the media) *bush was never offered a way out to "Save Face" a common Win
Win negotiation technique. The situation has escalated since. We MAY have been enables if a diplomatic approach would
work with *bush, but I don't really think it would have worked.

[matcom]

11. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

sorry.

if they don't realize by NOW....

FUCK THEM

[Sugar Smack]

68. um...matcom...

Have I told you lately that :loveya:

Not to add to the divisiveness here, but, FUCK people who voted for bush. Just FUCK them. Sorry, but FUCK you. I am being as polite as possible when I say FUCK you. I'd give you a great big hug but FUCK YOU.

[Misunderestimator]

124. Ditto

On all counts.

[mitchtv]

178. Que chingan sus madres

Right on

[Roachman]

12. There's more complicity in being

registered Republican than being registered something else, though certainly less complicitly than voting Republican, which could still be less than voting directly for Bush, which is still less than campaigning for him.

I'm not saying you're to blame for being registered Republican, I'm just saying you're more to blame than me.

[StefanX]

13. Why am I not supposed to attack registered Republicans?

Last time I checked, it was Republicans who have been running the country and ruining it for the last 5 years.

If their party has been wrecking the country, maybe they could, y'know, switch parties.

Republicans are messing the country up. I think the way politics work, anyone who goes around proudly saying they're a Republican needs a serious talking-to.

[Just Me]

54. Because GODDAMNIT it's the LEADERS' FAULT!!!!!

Why displace blame and responsibility on the powerless rather than the powerful!!!

DAMN!!! DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!! :grr: :grr: :grr:

[ProfessorGAC]

86. You Are Aware This Is A Democratic Republic?

The "leaders" are chosen BY THE PEOPLE to do a freakin' job. If they support those leaders, in a gov't of, by and for the people, then THEY ARE THE GOV'T they have chosen.

Never mind. You are beyond any hope. You lack of knowledge is saddening.
The Professor

[Just Me]

94. NO!!! We live in a corporatocacy!!!

I am quite knowledgeable,...as a real-life Dr. to a another "professor".

On what facts do you assert that this country is a "Democratic Republic"? Could you entertain the possibility that, an extremely manipulative dictatorship has ended both "democracy" and the "democratic republic"?

Or, ARE YOU TOO ILL-INFORMED?

Do NOT EVER EVER EVER attack me as being ignorant or stupid or misguided!!! Understand? :grr:

[Demonaut]

179. who put this asshole in office?, who condones the lies and crimes

committed by this piece of walking and talking shit? Its too bad that some who see the light are associated with the greater majority of morAns but thats their choice so fuck em!

[Just Me]

181. So, you have no experience with being betrayed,...I take it.

Either that or you have NEVER trusted anyone EVER. What a life,...huh. x( Are you prepared to advocate that kind of life for all those who surround you?

Not me. I embrace our best,...and I have received it because I dont' do a auto HATE those who are associated with this EXPLOITATIVE REGIME. WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS,...NOT GADGETS OR PEGS OR "THINGS"!!!!

Whatever part of your humanity you gave up in your anger,...I beg you to reclaim.

[Demonaut]

187. lol, Just me, usually your posts are sensible but this is too much

betrayer, betrayed....my humanity not intact? too fucking much! lol

[asthmaticeog]

14. Screw that.

Anyone who voted for Bush should suffer what the poor of New Orleans are suffering. They wrought this disaster. And I don't want to hear "Supreme Court" or "Blackwell," either - neither one of those election debacles could have happened if the races weren't close.

[tk2kewl]

15. And if they are STILL supporting him? Do they STILL get a pass?

:shrug:

[shifting_sands]

16. to Just Me

I am not a Republican (or Democrat, registered Independent) but I completely agree. I have a ton of family and friends who are registered Republicans and if the Dems and Independent feel enraged by the betrayal of their government, it doesn't come close to the pain and rage felt by my GOP friends. They are angry and frustrated, feeling attacked by all sides. The corruption and greed and betrayals have been exposed during a Republican administration but there is more than enough betrayal by the Democrats to go around for all politicians.

The greatest thing they should fear is the day we stop fighting each other over right and left, black and white, rich and poor, conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat, and en masse turn to them and say "what have you been doing." That's the day our so called leaders of both parties should fear.

[Roachman]

18. People are acting like Bush is the opposite of the standard...

Republican, but let's face it, he's just the extreme Republican.

You can't say that Republicans are as upset with him as the rest of us when, whatever they're upset with him over, they're closer to him than the rest of us or else they wouldn't be Republicans!

[kath]

85. Republicans have been the party of the rich&selfish FOREVER, and they have

been the party for racists for at least the last 25 years (plus the religious nutjobs for about the same period of time).

FUCK 'EM.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. It Doesn't Compare? Huh?

Part of our rage is based upon the fact that we've been telling these people since the Reagan era that they were being played, they were being exploited, and they were wrong. So, they demonized the word "liberal". The made the media the "evil, liberal media". They attempted to ruin the Democratic president who took their precious White House away, and mostly because he was having success. Had he been a failure, they would have let the pecadilloes go.

But, no. They still voted for Bush. They still vote for Repub candidates for high office in their states. And they're more outraged than we are.

I think you haven't thought your whole argument through.
The Professor

[DURHAM D]

27. Exactly ... n/t

[Just Me]

63. BULLSHIT!!! "WE" "WE" "WE",...

Stop being so friggin' self-centered and STOP DENYING the power of a media that YOU HAVE HAD NO INFLUENCE OR CONTROL OVER!!!

:grr:

"WE" "WE" "WE" get off your freakin' pedestal and ACKNOWLEDGE all those who have NOT been exposed to "we, we, we"!!!

I apologize,..but the righteousness and self-centeredness just pisses me off.

[PowerToThePeople]

69. righteousness and self-centeredness just pisses me off

So you agree that you are pissed off at Republicans too?

"I am not gay, therefore I am better than you."
"I am rich, therefore I am better than you."
"I want to give my kids 10 billion tax free, so the national debt can fuck off!"

Many other republican attitudes I could add if you want...

[Bluerthanblue]

80. you forgot...

"I'm not a republican, therefore I have every right to lump people into piles, and hate them- stomp on them, blame THEM for everything" and then go have myself a nice wine cooler, or green tea, and settle into my noble seat at the table of 'inclusion'-

fuck this world-
i'm insane.
and i can't take anymore of this.

[PowerToThePeople]

82. Not blaming for everything, just last 5 years of hell. n/t

[Just Me]

105. "righteousness and self-centeredness" is exhibited by assholes.

Assholes have no party affiliation or race or gender or religion or association with the best of humanity.

They are just, ASSHOLES, who ride the tide for themselves!!! They are not a part of one race, the human race,...they are exploiters, dividers, subhuman predators who should be sent back from where they came,...HELL.

STOP giving over our power to those sick pricks!!! Just, STOP IT!!!

[PowerToThePeople]

112. Actually, today assholes do have a party-> Asshole - R(TX)

[I Have A Dream]

77. You can count me in on the "we" that this person describes.

The right had the audacity to print, word for word, the transcript from Monica Lewinsky's testimony during the hearings. Nothing that we could do would ever even come close to this. This isn't revenge that I want. I just feel that they should be treated the same way that they treated others.

I owe them nothing.

I don't hate all Republicans. However, I feel that anyone who still supports B* at this point no longer has my respect, and I'll never again be able to trust his/her judgment, no matter how intelligent the person is.

[Bluerthanblue]

96. you owe 'them'

an opportunity to be seen as an individual- and if that individual insists on mouthing 'talking points' and supporting people in power who do things that are WRONG- then you can make your INFORMED 'judgement' based on the reality of what you know- that they are supporting a malignant- selfish- greedy- leader who kills people without remorse, or cause. And i would agree with you on that assesment-

But what did MLK die for? What did Gandhi die for??? so that we could 'judge' other based on a long distance 'surface view'? or on the CONTENT of THEIR CHARACTER-

THAT was something worth dying for- but you'll be just as blind when you gouge out their eyes, because 'they' gouged out yours.

There is no shelter in the world, for those who refuse to see the whole view.... guess that reality is hitting home....

[PowerToThePeople]

100. If you have been reading these boards recently

You would see that anyone that is a "cured" republican has been welcomed with open arms. I don't see anyone here hating those people. We are hating the hate mongering, murderous, tax-payer robbing, crimminal element that IS the republican party. People who wisen up enough to see it for what it is will not be turned away. But DO NOT epect anyone with any sense of morality to not despise the pure evil that is the root nature of the republican party...

[I Have A Dream]

119. I feel that I "see the whole view". I feel that I treat people as...

individuals. However, once I've come to the conclusion that they still support the B* regime to the detriment of everything else, then I have to hold them accountable because they are allowing these people to kill, torture, rape, pillage, and destroy our world, civilization and culture. Without these people's support, the B* regime wouldn't be able to do these things.

I said that I don't hate all Republicans. In fact, I don't HATE anyone. I truly don't. However, I have to be part of the solution or I'm part of the problem. Holding people accountable treats people like adults, and holding people accountable is part of the solution.

[ProfessorGAC]

84. MY SELF-CENTEREDNESS???

You are deluded! You started a thread telling others what they should do because the people you're defending aren't responsible. But, your points are devoid of intellectual gravity so most here find them lacking. So, you take it personally, and then accuse ME of being self-centered.

And if you think the information wasn't out there for everyone to find, then you just weren't paying attention.

And by the way, SELF-CENTEREDNESS would require a fascination with "I, I, I" not "WE, WE, WE." Before you try to parry intellectually with me, you had better come fully armed. And get a dictionary. You lack of brilliance is stunning in its pathos.
The Professor

[DURHAM D]

90. Go Pro ! eom

[theHandpuppet]

167. Thank you

Someone had to say it, and I would have just gotten myself banned.

[Just Me]

174. Seriously, are "arms" necessary to defend the betrayed?

DAMN!!!! :cry: I guess you HATE the powerless as much as the regime which exploits them!!!!

[Zenlitened]

45. "They are angry and frustrated, feeling attacked by all sides"...

... "the pain and rage felt by my GOP friends."

Then they should register as Independents. A 10-minute trip to Town Hall, usually.

[Sugar Smack]

88. I know. Waaah. Lost on me.

"Sorry. Get over it".

[tnlefty]

134. No, they need to publicly apologize and then LOUDLY join us in

trying to rid ourselves of this sorry lot. Until then, I will group republicans with BushCo**, et. al. They need to wear the death and destruction in Iraq and here at home like a huge g*d dammned albatross around their necks.

[iconoclastic cat]

17. LOL!

[mod mom]

21. They had the same access to info on bu$h that we all did. This was not

just another election year. People (like us) mobilized like never before warning of what a vote for W menat. As I see it, if they voted for him, they own his mess.

Funny-where are all those W stickers on those big SUVs and Minivans now?

(The sad thing is those heartless people are probably more mad about the cost of gas than the Katrina tragedy.)

Sorry, no sympathy here.

[Bonhomme Richard]

22. They got a pass voting for bush the 1st time......

Anyone that voted for bush the second time, in my book, is a fascist or at best, has a major character flaw. Period.
It's like saying all nazis were not bad people. Of course not, but they did continue to support him.
I've had it with appeasing anyone anymore. It's like enabling the alcoholic.

[yasmina27]

24. My husband is a registered republican

and hates * as much as the rest of us. He hates him for having hijacked his party. He voted for Kerry. We had Kerry signs all over our yard and I bought a large one to hang from our pool deck, which is visible from the road (the same road that a big-wig from the local Repuke party lives on. Someday when I figure out how to post pictures, I'll show you the pics I have of our homemade sign that said "You stole our signs but you can't steal our votes!" (It was 4'x6' in size).

[Zenlitened]

62. Definitely encourage him to re-register as an Independent, if not Dem.

It may be the most powerful -- and principled -- political statement he can make right now.

:hi:

[yasmina27]

224. He's thought about it,

but this way, we, as a couple, have a say in both parties primaries. For example, in spring '04, he debated whether to vote for Specter or his opponent, a guy who makes Santorum look good - can't remember his name. Speculation was that the democratic candidate would have a better chance of winning against this guy than Specter. But alas, Specter won both the primary and the general election.

My husband is also a believer in the original repuke values of pre-Reagan true conservatism. His father was a major behind-the-scenes operative in the repuke party at the national level, a la KKKkarl Rove. Except that my FIL (long passed away) would have kicked the
sh!$ out of that treasonous SOB punk.

My MIL tells some VERY interesting stories!

[PowerToThePeople]

25. They ARE at fault.

They did not have to become dumb, ignorant, and undereducated in the facts. It was a choice.

[LSK]

106. call me a liberal elitist, but if you still support *, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM

The truth is out there. In some cases it is so obvious (Iraq for example - find any WMD?). If you still drink the kool-aid at this point, you are beyond help. You are really stupid or so filled with hate that there is no help for you. You will not get any sympathy from me. No way.

[StefanX]

26. Yeah, don't attack Republicans

Let's go invade some medium-sized country instead.

Republicans have nothing to do with the mess the country is in. They've just been running all three branches of the govt for the past 5 years, so give them a break.

[Bluerthanblue]

197. no exactly wrong-

learn from those you oppose- those who do things you believe are wrong, and don't simply imitate them- even 'hating' them because they are 'republicans'- there is nothing 'noble' or good in that-

That kind of thinking just builds walls- haven't we got enough of them already???

Blame never healed anyone. Especially blaming masses of people for the actions of the ones in power. Ask the innocent Iraqi civillians how much they supported Hussien, and how much better they are as a result of all our 'good' freedoms.

[Extend a Hand]

28. Not yet.

it's really hard not to be angry and hold people responsible for their actions. So many Republicans *REFUSE* to listen to the truth in order to preserve a twisted world view.

I hope God forgives those that continue to support this administration after watching the citizens of New Orleans die in the streets begging for water. I can't forgive them right now-- not while they
continue to defend the indefensible. Not while they continue to pass the buck and duck responsibility for their failed policies. Not while they make excuses for and support those that are responsible for this *CONTINUING* abuse of power.

Once the looting of our country stops (if it still exists in any recognizable form), then maybe, maybe I can think about Bush supporters as victims.

[undeterred]

29. Anyone who voted for Bush in 2004 is too stupid to live

and deserves to be attacked.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

30. A valid point.

We should discern between Christo-Republifascist elements of the Republican party and the moderate rank and file, many of whom are still wondering what the hell happened to their party. The moderate rank and file should be targeted for enlightenment, NOT ridicule. I really believe a little more reaching out, especially in the wake of Katrina, could benefit our cause immensly.

[kentuck]

41. Where is this "moderate rank and file '??

Do they really exist? How would we know? They seem to march in lockstep with the most extreme of their Party? What would you suggest would enlighten them if this disaster has not done it?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

162. They're spread...

...out everywhere across the country and most certainly do exist. They're ordinary citizens who tend to trust authority and don't want to believe the Bushco regime could really be the fascist criminals we know they are. The vast majority are not well educated and would rather not pay attention to political matters anyway. I think Katrina has their attention and has given many second thoughts about Bushco. Reaching them needs to be done at the community level. I don't know exactly what the best way is, I am pretty sure, however, it doesn't involve ridicule. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Telly Savalas]

46. The Christofacists are the base.

"Moderate Republican" is an oxymoron and only lends unnecessary legitimacy to an extremist organization. The Republican Party essentially has 3 wings: the conservatives (like Sen. Chafee), ultraconservatives (like Hagel), and the cuckoo bananas lunatic fringe (like the party leadership).

I'll certainly grant that calling rank and file Republicans names doesn't achieve anything, but it's folly to think that there are large numbers of them ready to permanently defect. Bush may have posed as a "moderate" in 2000, but in 2002 and 2004 it was clear what the GOP was all about and most of the rank and file voted for them anyway.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

164. I don't disagree with...

...your categorical breakdown of Republican leadership. My call for reaching out, however, does not relate to them. I think we may all be surprised by how many of their rank and file, in the wake of Katrina, may now be ready to apply a much higher level of scrutiny to Bushco, and might just be willing to lend a receptive ear to an alternative. If this does happen do be the case, what better time than now to try and connect with them? What do we have to lose?

[Zenlitened]

52. Encouraging them to quit the republican party IS...

... targeting them for enlightenment. That's what the whole conversation is about. They need to admit that the party they once identified with is gone, gone, gone.

They can make a powerful -- and principled -- statement by switching their voting records to "Independent," if not Dem.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

170. I don't believe an...

...effort to enlighten involves telling anybody what they "need to admit" or that their party is "gone, gone, gone," but rather, is simply a sincere attempt to help them see Bushco for what it is. I wouldn't think this is best done in a confrontive or contentious manner.

[Bluerthanblue]

199. nice to

know there are a few who feel this way-
thank you for presenting this perspective in a reasonable manner-

i'm a failure at that- you make sense, in a non-combative manner-
thank you.


blu

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

208. Thanks.

Everyone's got their own style. You don't fail to make your point and that's what counts.

Here are links to essays by two different authors who speak to the psyche of the Bush supporter. Both compelling, good reads showing very dissimilar style and viewpoint. Enjoy.

http://www.karlandkinggeorge.com/Bageant_piece.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1129-28.htm

[Bluerthanblue]

214. Thank YOU- i've

bookmarked them to read tomorrow-
i have to get to sleep - or try to. Wake up time comes in two hours...
ready or not.

peace,
blu

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blue sky at night]

32. sorry dude....

but no slack will be given from this quarter. The electorate has a Duty to become educated about candidates and seek the truth. Will you, Can you explain exactly how so many loving little Republicans could possibly not KNOW what was going on? Sorry, but their blind allegiance to this CABAL and blind support for all of their Criminal Activity will NOT be forgiven from this Quarter Either. Ignorance is indeed bliss, but it is not an excuse; ask any Judge. I'm playing the BLAME FUCKING GAME and if they don't like it, then call the house and tell them to start impeachment.

[DistressedAmerican]

33. If We Are Not Being Led Down The Path, I Can Not Excuse Those That

allow themselves to be manipulated. As Bob Marley said. "only you can free your mind from mental slavery." Manipulation is no excuse for cursing our country with this fucker.

A HUGE number of Bush voters were motivated by their feelings on gay marriage. They flocked to their homophobic rhetoric! That was not them being manipulated. It was them damn glad to vote for a president that will keep gays second class citizens.

Others flocked to him because they saw him as a "good christian" (whatever that means) despite his rampant killing.

Many more are straight party line voters that are too fucking lazy to even find out what the individual stands for. They just vote on down the line. That is not amnipulation. That is bad citizenship!

Do not tell me the people that saddled us with this asshole are not at fault.

Anyone that looked at this guy's first four years and found anything to vote for is full of shit and to blame.

They should be ashamed of themselves and you should not be so very eager to excuse what they have done to this country!

[msgadget]

34. I agree, it's what they want, a populace too divided to

topple them!

[tnlefty]

35. NO!!!

They didn't want to hear facts before and I don't intend to no matter how much you yell in all caps. I don't encounter that many who wouldn't turn around and vote repug again, so 'til then, JUST NO.

[erinlough]

36. Nah, I live with republicans all around me and

they are Bush. All of them. They may show you a different face when they don't have the facts that you do, and they do lie about who they vote for all the time depending on who they are around. They are cowards when it comes to confrontation. I should know, I confront them all the time. Not in a mean way, but with information, and they will not give me any of their information back. I am convinced that is because they don't have any.

by the way "Justme" don't yell at me, it doesn't work.

[Lecky]

37. I agree with you

When the people get caught up in the 'us vs. them' game they lose focus on the real enemy. Both sides get caught up in this and it's unproductive... even if bashing Republicans makes you feel better...it's unproductive.

It's true there are many rabid Rush Limbaugh-type Republicans out there, hell...some of you are even related to them, but the only way we are going to make some sort of change is if we fight against the people in power by getting the corrupts out of office. By doing this we need to be changing hearts and minds...when you focus too much energy on labeling all Republicans as evil racist bigots...well umm good luck with that approach. Of course there are evil racist bigots tied to the GOP, but there are many Republicans who are not extremists and are generally nice people. People just like us...

I understand this is a Democratic/Liberal board so of course there will be occasional Republican bashing...but I think we could use these boards to show our good side, our productive side, our compassionate side and not just are angry side. Everyone has their angry and frustrated moments but if we let that consume us it ruins our rationality and even credibility.

I have a feeling my post will be ignored :)

[kentuck]

47. 'focus on the real enemy" ??

And who would that be ? These fuckers would vote for Bush again tomorrow. They are the enemy.

[Bluerthanblue]

74. no, the enemy is us-

and believing 'we' are better than anyone or anything based solely on a group affiliation.

call it whatever you like- THAT is the enemy- of EVERYTHING.

Speak for yourself Kentuck- 'those fuckers' have the right to speak for themselves- and it IS possible you might be wrong. Just as i often am.

[kentuck]

101. They did speak for themselves....

and I would bet they would say the same thing again...What they are doing is harmful to us all. Ignorance is no excuse. They voted for George W Bush. How much more damage do they need to see? We have Third World countries offering us aid! You are delusional if you think they are going to listen to rational arguments. All rational arguments have been made. I cannot surrender this country to them.

[Lecky]

128. I know some of those "fuckers" personally

...and they are not the evil bastards some of you portray them as...

Why they voted for Bush? God knows...for the most part they have been voting Republican since they were eligible to vote...why? Because their parents did. There is no explanation I can give anyone on DU that would make any sense, a lot of them are pretty apolitical until come election time. I used to be like that too, except I was an apathetic Democrat just consumed in my own life and not paying attention. I believe I was a Democrat because of my parents influence...and now that I am much more politically aware I'm still a proud Democrat but much more aware of our flaws and the real issues. I know more about the problems this nation faces and the horrible atrocities that the United States has been responsible for overseas that have been going on way before Bush stepped in. (I don't think many people are aware of that in this country or worse, even care :()

I have no idea what makes them tick but I do know it's hard to change or admit mistakes and that they are not evil nor are they my enemies. I don't think they detected the danger of having Bush and his neocon posse in power, and I know they didn't like Kerry for whatever retarded reason. To their credit there are many DU'ers who bash Kerry relentlessly so maybe some of you can relate better than I can.

Many people just blindly trust their leaders or think the alternative would be much worse to put it quite simply.

[tnlefty]

142. I know a lot of these morally bankrupt motherfuckers, too, and they

are a combination of the following:

Everything for me, I've got mine and fuck you. I don't care if my fellow citizens are being harmed and that our society is going straight to hell, I'm comfy and therefore, fuck everyone else.

Racist/sexist (this includes females)

Hypocritical religious nuts.

True wacked out religious nuts.

Further, I'm sick of this mess being laid at the feet of democrats. Bush** voting repugs and indies and whatevers need to step up to the plate and start to fix this mess. As I told a neighbor who was whining that "all republicans aren't that way"...This is the image you allowed the republican party to be painted with. I don't do image repair or damage control for the republican party. If you don't like the image then you work to fix it, but until then, you bought this mess by voting republican and YOU own it.

[Lecky]

158. Trust me, I know of those types too

...but your neighbor was right when they said that all Republicans were not that way.

I'm not innocent of Republican bashing we all do it a bit, some more than others...is it productive? No. I don't expect there to be less ranting about Republicans but I just think we are better than that. Keep in mind when I say Republicans, I mean the people...the voters...not the ones who hold office.

I just hope that we as a group are more motivated by making changes for the better instead of being motivated by our hatred for our opponents.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

183. Not ignored by me.

You said it just right.

[Lecky]

186. Thank you :) n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

38. scream it Just Me- even if no one want's to hear

you speak the truth-

and it doesn't stop at our 'borders'. There has been MASSIVE harm done to the entire world by human beings of all 'groups'- and 'hating' or 'labeling', and 'lumping' into nice 'neat' little packages that 'we' can say 'we' don't belong to is what allows the hell to continue, and the cancer to grow.

WE ARE ALL PART OF ONE ANOTHER- for good or evil- and we all 'choose' or reject on an individual basis, things that are life-giving, or life-destroying. Anyone who claims that they don't is fooling no one, except themself.

i'm so tired and discouraged- and sick of sorrowing..

"Yeah, but" ... "he did something MUCH worse" just doesn't cut it for me anymore...

very little does...

[PowerToThePeople]

49. I choose to reject life destroying things, i.e. Republicans.. n/t

[Just Me]

180. These bastards PROFIT by dividing us. FUCK THEM!!!

We are ALL AMERICANS. I will NOT TOLERATE divides that hurt us and empower "them"!!!

Enough!!! ENOUGH!!!!

[Individualist]

39. BS

Anyone who voted for Bloody George deserves to be attacked.

[TahitiNut]

40. I would have agreed in 2000. Less so in 2001. Even less in 2002.

A LOT less in 2003. Very very little in 2004. And not at all in 2005.

[Donailin]

198. I'm with you ,TN.

At this point their love for the president isn't nearly as strong as the ir hatred for the demonized liberal left.

These are people that will cut off their noses to spite their faces, even if it means poverty and death to themselves and the rest of us.

[TahitiNut]

209. Yup. "Democracy isn't a suicide pact."

They're self-destructive and they want company. No thanks.

[Witchy_Dem]

42. Sorry, I like to think for myself and make my own decisions.

your post comes off way too emotional and unstable for me to take any of it as advice worthy of accepting. Not that I attack all republicans but if the situation warrants it...

[Zenlitened]

43. No. They need to step away from that party now...

... or they are part of the problem.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. Give me a break. What a pile of unadulterated crap.

[PretzelWarrior]

50. 73% of registered Republicans see no problem with Bush after Katrina

so...um...yeah. the problem IS with dumb fuck registered republicans.

BUY A FREEEKIN CLUE

[anitar1]

55. I will never welcome a Pug in my home again.

Can never forget the years of hell and destruction they brought down on our heads. Of course they were able to expose the corruption of the Supreme Court, which may lead to throwing all of them out some day, I hope.

[Bluerthanblue]

196. wow, and i thought

i was naieve. Supposedly bush won the election too-
You believe the numbers? i don't-
And where do you get figures like that???? not anywhere i've seen-

I'm still trying to find the 'majority' who supposedly voted for bush- cause i live in a 'swing' state that turned blue, maybe for the first time in the last 100yrs- and i'm not seeing it.

I don't believe the MSM-

[incapsulated]

207. You don't believe...

That 70% of Registered Republicans still approve of Bush after Katrina? Because it wasn't a percentage of all Americans, just registered Republicans.

This is a consistent response from the majority of Republicans no matter what poll is cited. No matter what Bush does, the majority of them approve. Why do you think they voted for him the second time, because they hated him so much? Do you imagine that 70% of the republican votes were created by Diebold, that these people don't really exist? (since only half the people in this country vote, that's only 20% or so of the entire population, see how much damage so few can do?)

You need to wake up, methinks.

[displacedtexan]

51. Is this the new Nuremberg defense?

Just asking.

What prompted your rant?

Edited: I left out the W, of course.

[greekspeak]

53. If they sympathy from me, they can leave that party

I see people on here defending everyone from John McCain to Susan Collins and Lincoln Chaffee. At the end of the day, who do they proudly stand shoulder to shoulder with? Shrub. Cheney. Delay. Frist. Rumsfeld. Who votes for them? Repukes. If they don't like the way pukes act, why register puke? No sympathy.

[Geek_Girl]

57. Republicans Voters are the Problem!

I blame the voters who put this POS in the white house. These People wanted him and now we are stuck with him. Republican Voters are not part of the problem. They are the Problem!'

Their selection process for choosing the Leader of the richest most powerful nation on earth, is based on whether or not he's someone you'd like to drink a beer with or because they believe he talks to god.

Give me a break our nation is falling apart before my very eyes because these MORONS chose a fellow MORON to be the leader of our nation.

[kentuck]

58. Just Me.... You really stepped in it...

These people are not innocents. They are guilty.

[FreedomAngel82]

59. They allow themselves to be so

My mother used to be a republican but she isn't. She watched the news and decided she was going to vote for Kerry before I talked to her. They allow themselves. We've tried talking to them and John Kerry did. But they didn't listen. So to hell with it. They attack me all the time, so I no longer give a damn. I'm sick and tired of being nice and getting beaten up over emotionally.

[smartvoter]

61. I won't even go there. They support this s**t at every turn. nt

[Berserker]

75. Registered republicans

are the fucking problem and they are destroying my country. Every single one of them can go fuck themselves. :mad:

[Cats Against Frist]

67. I agree

And here's why:

If you wish to make the case that Bush is the "worst president ever," -- a statement with which I agree -- you must, I would think, feel that his presidential ineptitude eclipses normal left v. right political bullshit. I honestly believe, that, except for the very rich, the fundies and the freepers, most people who vote GOP are utterly clueless about who or what, excatly, they're voting for. Case in point: two of my parents' friends. Fun-lovin', sex-toy-buyin', beer-drinkin', pick-up-truck-drivin' couple. He used to be in the military, her family is old money in our small town. They're very anti-racist, they hate the Christian Right, they're not "ultra" wealthy, and they're not really "conservative." They're no different from the rest of my parents' friends, who are Democrats from the exact same demographic.

My mom tried to get her to not vote for Bush during the election, but she simply said that she was a Republican, and didn't vote across party lines. Clueless? Yes. Irresponsible? Yes. Evil? No. The GOP has its loyal followers who know nothing about PNAC, the neocons, only get the filter-filter-filter news about the high crimes of the Bush admin, and probably word-of-mouth, recycled Hannity talking points from co-workers.

To make the point that Bush's crimes are that fucking serious, that she shouldn't vote for him, voting GOP, her whole life, you have to make her realize that this isn't about left v. right. Party identification is the singlemost important factor in a person's decision for whom to vote. If you blanketly attack "Republicans" it ain't gonna mean shit.

Do they suck for supporting the neo-gestapo? Sure. Do they have any clue? Doubt it. And if you want them to learn, start with just Bush and his transgressions, instead of attacking the party.

[Lecky]

145. Well that makes about 4 of us on this thread...

who understand why it's totally unproductive and a waste of time...

I just think about how I react to those idiots who are always spouting off about how liberals are ruining this country or whatever Rush Limbaugh tells them to think and say...it doesn't warm me up to the GOP party AT ALL, in fact it repels me. I can only imagine that hearing the same hateful shit from our side that has no substance just hatred... turns off rational people who MAY EVEN AGREE with some of our viewpoints.

I view DU as more of a progressive discussion forum not a 'Rant about Republicans because they are stupid and evil' forum.

...I guess it's both. Sometimes it's more the latter and it gets frustrating at times...

[freemen2005]

70. stop being a rep then jeez, ur hole party stinks

[Witchy_Dem]

71. hole party stinks. LOL LOL LOL ROFLMAO! Thanks for that giggle

[ignatius 2]

72. Please, for anyone not to lazy or braindead to not do some research about

who Bush is and who were too obtuse to see what he had done the first term, I have no sympathy.

I won't attack them physically of course, but I will not refrain from telling them facts,which most could care less about,every chance I get.

We of the democratic party, tend to be thoughtful people who have unfortunately let the repukes roll all over us.

NO MORE..these maniacs in the Bush administration are destroying not just our country but the entire world and I for one have had it.

Gloves off.

[Zenlitened]

73. Feeling a bit silly for posting this yet? You've gotten some spot-on...

... responses, making it very clear that the issue is people CHOOSING to register their party affiliation as republican.

Any and every one of them, if their conscience so guides them, can stop by Town Hall tomorrow and change their voter registration to Independent.

It makes a powerful political statement, it really does. And a principled one, at that.

[damntexdem]

76. Well at least this can be said for them:

like registered sex offenders, at least you know who they are.

And 74% of them support what Dubya has done re Katrina.

And in Texas, we don't even register by party, so we DON'T know who they are.

[DURHAM D]

93. Just as many (if not most) DU'ers are trying to take their party back -

maybe those Registered Republicans you are so worried about should try to take their party back.

[Lochloosa]

97. Excuse Me!...Listen to Hannity for 3 hours and you will pull this post.

[sendero]

103. H. L. Mencken said.....

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

[erinlough]

108. OMG that's the best quote.ever /eom

[BamaLefty]

110. I Agree

My aunt is a biggggggg Republican but is almost as anti-Bush as I am. No kidding.

She voted Kerry and had a "Republicans 4 Kerry- Count It Twice!" bumper sticker on her car.

They're out there... believe it or not.

[LSK]

114. your aunt isnt who must of us are talking about

We focus our anger on people who still vote for * and blindly follow him.

[BamaLefty]

118. True

Except I would like to see us use the term "conservative" with the negative spin that the GOP uses the word "liberal." You never hear * refer to us as "the evil Democrats." Or I haven't. I hear him slam Massachusetts (which has gotten so tired btw) and use the word "liberal" in a very negative tone.

Instead of attacking simply Republicans-- lets go after the jugular of "conservatives."

JMHO. And yes, I know my aunt doesn't fit the standard of the batshit crazy Republican that we've all grown to know and hate of today.

[rucky]

117. Why? You afraid we're going to HURT THEIR FEELINGS???

boo fucking hoo hoo.

[Misunderestimator]

127. Sure... Let's not PLAY THE BLAME GAME. What idiotic advice.

[cry baby]

130. Yes it is, it's their fault.

Being uninformed is why they voted the way they did. Many of them are still backing chimpy. Unforgivable.

[NNN0LHI]

131. Last time I checked Chimpy was a registered Republican n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

133. Boy, I'm missing the thread hider right about now

What a load of BS.

[tlsmith1963]

136. The Only Republicans I Will Side With...

...are reasonable ones. The "Freeper" ones who love Bush so much? Forget it!

Tammy

[alarimer]

138. They are brainwashed idiots

if they believe any Republican crap.

[Catherine Vincent]

141. Oh please!

Fuck the Registered Republicans
Fuck the unregistered Republicans
Fuck the Republicans that vote republican
Fuck the Independents that vote republican
Fuck the Democrats that vote republican
Fuck Dick Cheney and
Fuck George W. Bush!

Cheers!

:-)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

143. Willful ignorance is no excuse. Screw the repugs.

They may be victims of their own stupidity, but I sure as hell don't feel sorry for them.

[cynatnite]

144. There is always diversity in any group...yes, even republicans

My RW mother is a fundie who luvs gawd and bush. I'm sure it's in that order. As much as I :banghead: at times because of her crazy reasoning, she is still compassionate and loving. Problem is, she's got her nose stuck too far into the bible to see what's going on sometimes.

I also know republicans who loathe what's happened to their party and the extremists that's taken it over. They come closer to being dems, but still love being republican. They are reasonable people.

I also know some who are in lockstep with the repuke party every step of the way. They are ready to spew RW talking points at the drop of a hat. Any fact presented, they claim a 'librul' must've wrote it.

One thing I do believe, this tragedy has changed this country's political landscape and we'll see the majority kick back against the bush regime and any repuke who was voted into office.

The only way the repukes will win next year is by cheating. I believe that completely after what happened in 2000.

I will attack repubs who attack me. I won't when there is discussion, but the minute they spout their crap about liberals and democrats, I will not hesitate in my attack of their very ideology.

[neuvocat]

146. I miss being able to hide threads.

No one needs to bother with this pro GOP drivel.

[Vektor]

154. Some are better than others.

I work with a few decent Republicans who are more moderate, and accepting of others. I also know some who are spiteful, mean-spirited, right-wing crazy, and bigoted as all get out. Those are the ones for whom I reserve my criticism.

[in_cog_ni_to]

155. We have spent the last 5 friggin' years pointing out the errors

of their ways. THEY KNEW WHO and WHAT they were voting for. WE KNEW! If WE knew, they had to know. They just didn't give a shit. ALL repukes are complicit. They ALL have blood on their hands from Iraq to NOLA. JMCPO

They are STILL supporting this regime even after they watched the idiot do NOTHING for 5 days after Katrina decimated the Gulf Coast. If they are still supporting those people...they are HOPELESS. Repukes deserve to be attacked! LOOK AT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO OUR COUNTRY!

[bearfan454]

156. They voted for these criminals so

Take your fucking medicine pukes !

[snot]

157. I'd go even further (read some Ghandi today--a VERY smart guy)--

Gandhi thought it is a mistake to attack any individual personally--that one should always focus on the sytem, not the individuals perpetrating it.

I think this is correct for many reasons, the most practical one being that it think it just WORKS better in winning people over to our point of view if we are not attacking them personally but instead pointing out the problems with the system, or the ideology, or whatever it might be.

I think it is fine also to point out when any given statement is untrue.

But I do believe violence begets more violence, vitriol begets more vitriol, and asserting the truth in a way that makes it easy for others to embrace it--in a loving way--will in fact be the most successful strategy.

(I think this has been a factor in Cindy Sheehan's success. While never hesitating to state what she believes in unequivocal terms, she has also been unequivocally ready to embrace those who disagree with her position but who are willing to relate to her in good faith.)

[Lecky]

160. Well said n/t

[porkrind]

159. Fuck that!

You are 100%, 180 degrees WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

All citizens have a responsibility to the Republic to be informed and vote for the best interests and welfare of their family and countrymen.

The Republican party is thoroughly corrupt both ideologically and in deed. They voted these thieves and liars into office after fucking DECADES of history on how Republican politicians act.

They can't claim innocence now. By their willful ignorance, selfishness, and bigotry, they are each somewhat guilty for all the crimes of this administration!

[BringEmOn]

163. They have itching ears.....

3For the time is coming when will not tolerate (endure) sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching , they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold,

4And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and man-made fictions.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (Amplified Bible)

[Warren Stupidity]

165. Most everyone who voted for the criminal bush cabal

in 2004 knew that they were voting for liars, cheats, crooks, and killers - albeit mainly of foreign non-white people. They have blood on their hands too. I am not in a forgiving mood right now. 25,000 of my brothers and sisters, 25,000 Americans, are dead because of the criminal negligence of the Bush Cabal and I am not in a forgiving mood.

[progressivebydesign]

166. Why shouldn't I blame the people that voted money over humanity? n/t

[samsingh]

168. anybody who's republican today is stupid and enabling

genocide on many levels.

[bushisanidiot]

169. Sorry, but repuke voters are to blame for giving that FUCKING IDIOT

another 4 years in office...

he fucking FAILED the nation on 9/11...

he TRASHED the surplus President Clinton created..

the blood spilled from SHOCK AND AWE is on their hands as much as it is on AWOL's..

they supported this asshole and i hope they a wracked with guilt over it

[niallmac]

171. I was about ten years old when I realized

republicans were selfish people who did not like to share. It isn't that hard of an epiphany to come by.

[Synnical]

172. I disagree

Had a SCREAMING match with my father last nite. Not the first time.

[Redstone]

173. They're the ones who voted for the son of a bitch, now let them

take the beating they so richly deserve.

Redstone

[Demonaut]

176. your fucking high..............your argument holds water like NO levees nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

182. My husband is a registered Republican. He voted for Kerry.

[Bluerthanblue]

200. well, you'd better get him to ask for absolution ... or...

renounce his evil connections... or else divorce him, cause he's evil-
if you 'buy' the concensus of opinion voiced here-

and for the record, I do NOT 'buy' the concensus represented in this thread- i believe that our society is enraged at what we are living, and people deal with that rage in many ways- some internalize it, some deny it, some shove it all over to everyone else- and none of us ever
benefit from any of it.

Unless we look at what has happened, why it happened, and fight with all we have not to allow more of the same to happen by ANY political or national 'group' hidden behind the cloak of righteous indignation, just desserts, or 'just-us'.

[mrcheerful]

184. Reality?

Those who voted for GW after seeing how he handled everything from 9/11 to Bin Forgotten Laden and his tax give a ways to the rich deserve every once of spite and scorn from those who saw GW as he was, a tin god. You let fear and your hatereds of anyone not like you drive you into the situation your finding yourself in. Instead of wacthing GW's actions you only went along with his good intentions and pandoring to your religious beliefs. Now its coming back to huant you, well you had your chance to change the course we were on and you chose to stay on GW's course, you deserve what your getting. This was what you republicans wanted, most of you are Reagan democrats and you betrayed yourselves by buying into the republican lie machine. Now that your feeling the sting of trickle down economics and the destruction of america you want to come back and say i was dupped into it. You were not dupped, you let yourselves back a rich mans bought and paid for politican because he told you what you wanted to hear. you believed and probably still believe that welfare, afro americans, gays, and those that believe that church and state do not belong together are whats causing all of americas troubles. Instead you believed a republican that told you work hard work long and you too will be one of the rich then found out that theres no way you were being allowed to be one of the chosen few. You let your greed over rule common sense, now you say you were used. Whats the matter? Your finding out that your paying for GW's tax cuts for the rich? Where did you think GW was going to get the money to pay for his war, his give a ways to the rich and every other thing he blows money on from?

[Douglas Carpenter]

189. I agree that they are more brainwashed than personally evil...but

In spite of the corporate controlled media and all the influences that might have misled them -- information is still easily available--There is still such a thing as moral culpability, isn't there?

[incapsulated]

190. This thread is insane

Just sayin'.

Look, first off, there is a difference between a) Registered Republicans and b) Republicans who voted for Bush. Twice.

Let's just take the vast majority, those in the B column.

You seem to be saying that they are powerless and brainwashed and that someone or something MADE them march down to their polling place and vote for Bush. And that in voting for him, twice, they aren't responsible for anything he does with the power they gave him through their voluntary vote.

If I give a loaded gun to a wanted mass murderer, I want you defending me in court. Never mind. I would never do anything that stupid. That would be like voting for Bush or something.

Of course, people are extremely complex creatures. They can do both heroic and horrendous things, no person is truly Good or Evil. Even Hitler liked animals. But that doesn't absolve people from responsibility for their own actions. Or actions that are sure to have certain consequences. You vote for a politician in the expectation that they will do certain things. Clearly, if you vote for them a second time, you approve of what they are doing, no? So, where is the innocence here, unless you are claiming they are brain damaged, which is the only excuse I might buy.

[FyurFly]

191. I was stupid enough...

To vote for Bush in 2000. I leaned my lesson in 2k3 during the lies to reach the so called WMDs.

--FyurFly

[mirror wall]

195. RE: "I was stupid enough..."

See? This is what I'm talking about. Ordinary people who eventually realize that Bush and Friends are dangerous to the American way of life and change their minds upon hearing what they've really been doing.

Congrats on waking up FyurFly.

[incapsulated]

203. Good for you

I've done stupid things myself. But I take the responsibility for them and hope I can make ammends and do better, as you have.

:hi:

[wtmusic]

205. Here here

What's done is done. Moving forward.

:toast:

and welcome to DU

[Bluerthanblue]

194. those that personally claim

that what bush and his cabbal are doing is 'good' and right and representative of them i believe are 100% wrong.
Does that mean i should kill them? Hate them? Silence them? Marginalize them??? Then what makes me any 'better' then them?
I guess from what i'm hearing here in this sad community i thougt i belonged to is that i should leave america, and renounce my citizenship, one which has roots deeper than the nation itself.- Because i am an american, and i don't share the views of this administration, BUT this administration is the current power- and the loudest most powerful voice-

Where the hell is the 'better alternitive?'- is the 'democratic' party simply a left wing version of the republican right wing extreemists????

Think about it people- PLEASE- If indeed you stand on ground that is solid, and 'correct' and 'moral'- do you need to destroy, taunt, defame and hate- those who have yet to find your ground is 'good'??? Those who try and take over your ground with violence, propaganda, secrecy, anger and hate???

Who made the largest change in equal rights??? Those who denegrated the ones who opposed them? Or those that showed those who opposed them how destructive and immoral their positions were???

Everyone gets angry- it's what we, each one of us DO with that anger that makes the difference between compounding the wrongs, and making a difference for the better. You can't sow seeds of hatred and division, and expect to harvest anything but more of the same.-

WE MUST BETHE CHANGE WE WISH TO SEE IN THE WORLD.

NOT BECOME THE ENEMY OURSELVES.

[incapsulated]

202. Destroy, defame and hate??

Where did I condone or encourage any such thing?

My point was you seem to want to absolve those that voted for Bush of any responsibility for their actions, claiming that they are somehow innocent victims of the Bush Cabal, clueless and brainwashed, even abused.

Frankly, I find such a view insulting to those you are trying to defend. I wouldn't want someone saying I vote Democratic because I'm too dumb or brainwashed to know better. I know damn well who I am voting for and why.

I am all for enlightening people so that they can change whatever personal belief system, fear or prejudice is motivating them make very bad decisions. But I don't treat them as fools, unaware of the consequences of their actions and without responsibility if they result in real harm done to other people.

I consider myself to be basically a good person. I am also capable of doing selfish, mean and simply wrong acts. I hope that I am aware, or made aware of such actions and ask forgiveness for them. I do not claim that I am not responsible for them, however, even if they arose out of "good intentions" or even my own ignorance.

[Bluerthanblue]

211. This entire thread

is full of blanket condemnations of anyone who is a 'registered republican'- A FEW very few i'm sad to say, qualify their disdain and outright hatred by saying 'those who voted for bush, or those who continue to support him'- But if you will attempt to take a non-partisan view of this thread, i'll be surprised if you can't see the depressing similarity of those i choose to dis-associate myself with.

Those individuals who come from all ends of the political spectrum, but to tend to be predominantly very fundementalist, extreem right wing republicans who say that anyone who doesn't share their perspective can rot in hell- are evil- won't be welcome in my home- can kiss my ass- are the cause of every bad thing that has ever happened.... i don't want to continue...

No one is absolved for any of their actions- not even democrats-like me, who despite all i was able to say and do to the contrary, was a citizen of this nation- while it invaded a country that is 'said' to have knowingly willingly and happily harbored a 'terrorist' causing untold deaths of innocents. Went on to wage a war of agression against another nation, which continues to kill and impose edicts that the people didn't ask for, nor want, and has no forseeable end, and no 'happily ever after' scenero. A nation where money is valued higher than human life, where the rich and privlidged thrive on the backs of the workers.... where even the opposition to the 'ruling' power accuses those who dare say violence, anger, and revenge isn't the answer as being ignorant, foolish, or apologists for the equilivent of demonic powers.-

I may be overdramatizing with my words- but step back, and look at this entire post. Replace the word Democracks for the word Rethugs, and tell me we are not in some sort of reverse hell.

There ARE a few voices of reason, and caution. I'm a poor example of one of them. But listen to those who voice the truth in more rational, and lucid words than me- and think on that.

I appreciate that you consider yourself to be a basically good person, who is falliable, i also believe your 'intentions' are good- i can't however share your perspective that condemning a 'group' of people simply by virtue of their political orentation as being less than you- or any MORE responsible than you or I, for what has been done by our country. Without any knowledge or proof that the each individual being condemned actually voted for or supports/ed bush and his cronies.

I'm too old, made,and lived through to many mistakes to think i have found all the right answers- i HAVE much to my everlasting regret lived through and chosen some of the wrong ones though. And with that knowledge, comes the bittersweet wisdom of learning through personal experience.

Judge individuals, not 'groups'- ANY group- that's my 'agenda'-
I'm not a bush fan- but i'm tired of racist,classist, chauvinist,feminist, humanist, or any other ist- extreemism.

peace-
blu

[incapsulated]

217. I disagree

An individual chooses to align themselves with other individuals. If they are part of an organization that is horrific and does awful things, well shit, yes, I will judge them as a group. Especially when they would do harm, real harm, to me and mine. This isn't an academic exercise, this past week proved that if nothing else did.

If you are going to pick and choose among the small number of them that didn't vote for Bush the second time, then you are playing games. Of course anyone who "saw the light" isn't the focus of this discussion. There is NO NEED to "qualify" this. The few that stayed registered republicans while they voted for Kerry are obviously discounted, we aren't judging people for their voter registration, we are judging them on their actions right now.

If the Republican Party was just a simple "political organization" you might have an argument. But after all the death, destruction, injustice and religious fanaticism that they have created and come to stand for, you just can't use that kind of semantic relativism. They have become a party of dangerous extremists and anyone who continues to support them must be held accountable for their actions. They aren't clueless innocents.

Sometimes, Bluerthanblue, there really is a right and a wrong side. It's as simple as that.

[incapsulated]

219. And I will say something else

The fury and anger that is expressed here may not be the finest expression of human sentiment. But it isn't created out of prejudice based on race, religion or income. It is the helpless fury of people watching their country and fellow human beings so defiled and ultimately harms no one, not in reality, they are just words.

However, the Republican Party daily makes decisions that destroy lives based on exactly those things. And those that support them are responsible for their power.

[Bluerthanblue]

221. ayup,

our hands are lily white.
Our american hands are spotless, because they declare 'democrat' when asked which party we 'belong' to. But no one knows what anyone marks on their ballots in the booth.- All them dirty repubs are the worlds evildoers- and all them a-rab ragheads are all out to get us.

Ain't we special-

NO- i'm not- maybe you are. I NEVER voted for bush, and i HATE what he has done, is doing, and continues to do- but i refuse to let his tactics and mindset become ME- or MINE.

Because i may be 'alive' but anything that has any hope or value would be dead- or so destroyed and destructive i'd rather BE dead.
Than be what i believe embodies everything that is wrong with this world-

And makes fun, and enjoys belittling others so that 'i' can feel 'right'.

How many innocent Iraqi citizens did Bill Clinton kill during his term as president? More than i'm comfortable with. But do i condemn all of us as murderers and baby killers??? No- apply the measuring stick to yourself too. Or do you advocate using the concept that bush wants like 'investigating' himself- as one pundit said, it like a pitcher calling the balls and strikes in a baseball game.

It isn't as neat and tidy and black/white as you want it to be- someday i think you'll come to see that.

Doesn't 'feel' good. But living a lie isn't living either.

[incapsulated]

223. Gee. For someone preaching tolerance

You are sure full of hate and blame. Look in the fucking mirror, sometime.

Black and white? No. Never. Nothing in life is.

But once and a while, something really, truly reeks to high hell and this administration is one of those things. If you can't see that, then you ain't looking hard enough.

I did not once, not ONCE, use any insult or condemnation of Bush supporters. All I said was they are responsible for their vote. You, however, feel righteously justified in condemning anyone and everyone on this thread that disagrees with you. Doesn't that "feel good", to be oh so very above all of us evil judgmental types?

Pot meet kettle.

:hi:

Edit to add: I was painfully aware of ANY action on Clinton's part that resulted in harm of other people, and knew that my choice, as a lesser of evils in the political reality that we live in, was partially responsible. If there were another alternative other than refusing to make any choice at all then I would take it.

I doubt you will find many people that voted for Bush twice that would admit much he has done much "wrong" at all, let alone their own responsibility in the matter. So step off.

[PowerToThePeople]

218. Replace the word "Republican" with "Nazi"

There are groups of people that have truly anti-humanitarian value systems. Imo, anyone who is a member of this group willingly is completely in the wrong. I do not say they can not change but until they do I will condemn them, as I would condemns anyone acting against my fellow human beings. Too late, need to get back to sleep.

[Lecky]

206. I agree with what you are saying 100%

I wish more people here at DU did as well...

[Bluerthanblue]

213. lets hope that most

do- deep down.

It's an angry, wounded, raging world- i've got to believe that in the end, as Gandhi said, that the 'good' win. No matter how bleak it may seem.

Otherwise i'd opt out.- i'm old and tired and growing impatient.

Thanks for the kind words- i DO believe in the power of good.
And the futility of violence and corrosiveness of hatred.
Just gotta keep that mantra going.... i DO believe- against all odds-

peace Lecky-
blu

[mirror wall]

193. It's counterproductive to hate everyone who's ever voted as a Republican.

People change their minds. It's harder to change someone's mind when you're sterotyping and screaming at them.

Not everyone can be shown the light; there are lots of unswayable ignorant/crazy/spiteful Republican footsoldirs out there that wouldn't hate Bush even if he raped, murdered, then fricaseed their children.

But there are also those who have simply bought into the awesomely powerful (DON'T EVER STOP DOUBTING THAT OR DOWNPLAYING IT) Republican spin machine. Once they see the facts, they start to doubt and come around. This change of mindset is more difficult to acheive when you're screeching "MORAN" into someone's face.

So yes, despising the brokers of the deception and the troglodytes whose minds no light will penetrate is unavoidable.

However, repressing the bile that comes when anyone cannot see this administration for what it is due to inattention or miseducation is not only laudable (sort of a human rights kinda thing; nobody should be left to rot in that sort of intellectual squalor), but neccessary if this poor downtrodden nation of ours is ever to lift its face to the sun again.

[BrightKnight]

201. open season, no bag limit - n/t

[bvar22]

204. Guess you could say I disagree with the OP.

Ran out and took a picture of the back of my car to post here:



The BLOOD sticker is on a magnetic base. It will be joined tomorrow by another one that says:

Republican GREED has killed
more AMERICANS than Al Qaeda


Republican GREED has now KILLED more Americans than Al Qaeda!

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[U4ikLefty]

212. I belive Just Me is using the "don't play the BLAME GAME" tactic

for some strange reason.

[Moderator]

226. Locking....

This is flamebait and the conversation
has run its course.