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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:08 AM
Original message
Socialists expelled from Camp Casey site
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:12 AM by derby378
On Saturday the 20th, members of the International Socialist Orgnization (ISO) were thrown out of the new Camp Casey site by Crawford law enforcement personnel at the request of protest organizers. Here's a picture of one of the police expelling the ISO workers:



Here's the deal from a DU eyewitness. The ISO set up a table under the new "Camp Two" tent (which is huge) and loaded it with copies of Socialist Worker and Howard Zinn books. They then started peddling their stuff and handing out flyers to advertise the socialist-leaning anti-war protest in DC on September 24. They were eager, if perhaps a little too aggressive in sales, and I was indeed considering buying one of the Zinn books anyway.

Before I could head back to the booth to actually puchase anything, one of the ISO volunteers jumped on a table and announced to everyone that they were being arrested. Sure enough, there were two or three policemen at the ISO table, and some organizers from Veterans for Peace had joined the growing fracas, with someone from ISO claiming that they were being expelled and/or arrested just for being socialists.

According to Veterans for Peace spokesmen, the folks from International Socialist Union had indeed gained an interview with Cindy Sheehan and permission to put her statements in Socialist Worker magazine, but Sheehan and the organizers asked the ISO not to set up a banner tent or engage in fundraising at Camp Casey. From what I gathered from the spokesmen, organizations such as CODEPINK and Intelligence Failure that do sell T-shirts and other products at Camp Casey have reached an agreement with Sheehan and the other primary organizers to contribute their profits to the overall effort, which encompasses Crawford Peace House, Gold Star Families for Peace, Veterans for Peace, etc. ISO, on the other hand, had reached no such agreement with the organizers, which meant that all of the money they raised from product sales would go straight into ISO's coffers.

The overall impression I got was that almost all free speech was allowed at Camp Casey, but with the growth of the protest movement at Crawford, there was an increasing need for organization and some need to focus the overall energy of the protest to keep Camp Casey from imploding during Cindy's absence. Camp Casey is not a democratically-run site out of sheer necessity; there has to be some control of the overall message coming out of Crawford. This means that you can wear whatever shirts you want (PETA, CODEPINK, Socialist Worker, Green Party, Amendment II Democrats, etc.) and even informally share your initiatives and platforms with other folks at the rally. But, as Cindy herself has learned, the mainstream news media is extremely sensitive to any message that comes out of Camp Casey, and as Cindy refocuses her plea to meet with Bush and explain the need to invade Iraq, so too the organizers see the need to prevent the message from diffusing under the weight of the special-interest cornucopia and turn Camp Casey into yet another exercise in herding cats. Apparently, the ISO tested the fences once too often, and for that they had to be thrown out.

I don't think anyone was arrested, but the situation had grown somewhat tense for a bit. Does anyone have any other updates or clarification on this incident?
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. They should have been booted. STAY ON MESSAGE.
Is this an anti-war rally, or a Pro-Socialism rally?

As Mike Malloy said. As liberals that is our main problem.

NO FOCUS...
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marbuc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Trying to coordinate the liberal message is like
hearding cats. I'm glad they were booted, I don't have a particular dislike for ISO, but I have become increasingly concerned that the original message is being lost in the chaos.

I guess groups like ISO have to aggressively pursue a form like any other fringe group, but shame on them for attempting to (whether intentionally or not)dilute the Gold Star mission. Eeryone else is there to support the mothers/families in their cause, not advance their own agenda.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Frankly, I thought it was an appeal to get Cindy face time with George
You can't get more anti-Iraq war than I am. I thought Cindy's intent was to ask George what is noble about dying for deceit and lies seems to be a bit lost. I'd like an answer to that question, too.

Maybe Cindy supports all these other causes, but I don't want to see her cause get highjacked.




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BamaLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
83. AMEN!
Camp Casey is there to support the Anti-war movement not economic philosophy. Thank you Beelzebud for saying that. I couldn't agree more.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. There is one message from Camp Casey and it's powerful enough
We want the truth.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm glad Sheehan has a way of controlling this
I wonder, if the ISO people put up a fight, would they have been able to stay?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
71. No, Cindy has been granted permission to use the land.
That gives her the right to decide who she wants there and to expel trespassers and interlopers.

Every dickhead with a cause should not attempt to steal Cindy's spotlight.
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sintax Donating Member (891 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. My personal feeling
is that no goods should be sold in Camp Casey other than those which directly address the particular issue and moment.

In this instance the message needs to have a laser like focus and any possibility of infighting, perceived or actual, will become the focus of the disgusting US media and right wing piranhas.

The ISO tends to be rather self absorbed and mono-maniacal in their message.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. Best thing to do and LET IT DROP.
We don't need to make a big issue of this atm.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. On the other hand...
...I don't think there was any reason to deny DistressedAmerican and his sister the freedom to set up their own tent at the Camp Casey site. Apparently, one of the organizers thought their message and DU's message was too "extreme" or something ridiculous like that.

There does appear to be some minor squabbles and miscommunications between Camp Casey organizers, and DistressedAmerican was one of the casualties. It was great to meet him and his sister, though, at long last.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. What message would that be that's too extreme? (DU)
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Good question
Maybe DA will see this thread and contribute his own experience. I got the feeling that he wanted to hang a DU banner on his tent, but I could be wrong. A heat index of 110 F can do funny things to your memory at times.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Thanks!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. Now I am pissed
They let PETA set up a tent but NOT DU????????????

If any organization is too extreme, PETA is, IMO. At least it's a lot more extreme than DU.
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. You might want to wait for confirmation
derby said,

I got the feeling that he wanted to hang a DU banner on his tent, but I could be wrong.

I would wait for DistressedAmerican to address this himself.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Ok, will do
I hope this is not the real deal here.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. My question as well. DU too extreme? ....n/t
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ohio_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I wasn't aware there was a problem between DA and the organizers
Is there another thread here about it? I'm totally lost.... :shrug:
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. and DA, too?!?
ayone gotta link?

peace
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. What??? THey think DU is too extreme?
Are you serious? Damn.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
46. "What??? THey think DU is too extreme?"
Must have been all those anti-bill maher threads......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. Does DU have a message...
that's different from Cindy's? If so, no one mentioned it to me. The socialists turn up at every event and push their paper and set up a table and I look at the material and find that some of it I disagree with but I don't worry that their message is going to be what's noticed in the media. At Camp Casey, however, the right wing is looking for anything that will discredit Cindy, so I think she has some right to focus the message and ask those who can't keep their focus on Casey and the war to leave. How powerful would it have been to have the socialists say that their message is important but they are willing to put it aside for a while to support Cindy?
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
62. I think our one and only message at this point in time should be
THIS IS AN ILLEGAL WAR. WE WERE LIED TO. BUSH LIED ABOUT THE WAR. PEOPLE ARE UNECESSARILY DYING BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT LIED.

After that, the logical follow up is impeachment and or a demand for resignation. Tis president lied and is a traitor by stopping at nothing to get his war including committing treason by outing Valerie Plame.

The President LIED to us. He should suffer the consequence of that action which makes any other action of his impossible.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. What?
They wouldn't let DA set up a tent?

First I have heard of that.

They let us put a sign up in The Peace House asking any other DUers there to contact us.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. "President Bush, what noble cause are we fighting for?"
eom

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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
47. "President Bush, what noble cause are we fighting for?"
Exactly- anything else is screwing the works. Damn. STAY FOCUSED.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. What I know of socialism is not bad but still not the message of this Camp
Let them set up their own Camp with whatever message they wish to portray. It could very well be a great message to enlighten people but we need to stay focused on ending the war and being "Pro-Life". I am not referring to anti-abortion I am referring to trying to save lives both Arab and American.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. Too bad ISO could't agree to play ball, but Hooray for the camp...
...organizers for (peacefully) ejecting them.

Keep it focused! Stay on target!
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
90. ISO has always been a problem - "Some Say" ISO is infiltrated
by the intelligence community - to be agent provacateurs - the goal is to distrupt and marginalize the anti-war movement and certainly the goals of the progressive movement.

Much evidence of this occurred in the 60's and seventies, (david horowitz was one such agent) vis a vis FOIA released FBI files and documents.

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
14. oh, great... now we are having our own arrested?
:crazy:

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. No One was arrested. "Our own" tried to hijack Camp Casey....
STAY ON MESSAGE.

Cindy is not there to advance the socialst agenda in America.

It's disrespectful to her, and to everyone that is there to support her to attempt to inject an outside issue into this.

It's bad enough that they are saying she's pro-palestine.

Imagine how the media would spin it: Sheehan is pro Communist...

That's the last thing we need right now.

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. excuse me, threatened supporters with arrest if they did not leave - wtf
"STAY ON MESSAGE."

that BS is only gonna cause more infighting, like the media won't spin it anyway they want.

there is a DIVERSE group of americans who want answers and who are against this war & we are stronger together not divided by having cops come in and through out our supporters on some lame marketing excuse.

there is no controlling all our voices only a coming together and acceptance of our differences.

this is nuts

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. So would you like the MSM to paint this as a Pro-Socialst rally?
Because that is what they'll do. THINK.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. they already do...
and do you think calling the cops on supporters is going to help our 'image' not to mention the cause of exposing their LIES?

:shrug:

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. You just don't get it. Maybe you don't want to.
Socialists are welcome to come.

Just don't hijack the camp, and attempt to turn it into a venue for your favorite pet cause!

This is why they say we, as liberals, are not focued. BECAUSE IT'S TRUE........

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. i get it, some overbearing control freaks think they are karl rove
:crazy:

peace
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Sheehan is an overbearing control freak?
:crazy:
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. never said that. fyi: sheehan isn't there
but whoever is trying to manage the msg on the ground by calling the cops IS.

:hi:

peace
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. is Sheehan demanding the ISO be allowed to stay?
do you think she will?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. how would i know?
i hope she tells the overbearing MSG managers to NOT call the cops on supporters though... it may send the wrong MSG.

peace
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. what if she doesn't
what if it turns out that she supports their removal?

To me, that's very likely the case. I wonder, to you, would you think less of Sheehan?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. i think it would open the door for huge infighting
which i think would be a mistake.

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peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. Infighting with who? The Socialists Vs. The Capitalists?
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. must be simple living in a black & white world
eh?

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. You tell me...
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. People like you are why the left can't stay on message...
:crazy: indeed...
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. oh, now it's my fault
circle the firing squad, captain!

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. No. Not your fault. People like you.
Socialists want to support Cindy, that is fine.

But dont' hijack Camp Casey, and attempt to convert it into a socialist learning center...

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. first of all, you don't know me from a can of spray paint & 2nd
this is ALL of our fight, for the TRUTH & to bring our troops home.

thats all i got to say to you about this.

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Then why can't they just show up and support the cause
without setting up the Socialsts Country Store?
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #65
86. Exactly bpilgram which is why the message from this camp
should not be detered by others attempting to steal the limelight they themselves have failed to capture, look at the picture here, its fairly easy to see what would happen if some were allowed to run roughshod over the one voice that IS getting heard....

considering how much airtime those opposing this war have gotten, you cannot fault others for wanting their fair share too, but in my opinion, its pretty self destructive to take away from the goal of what this protest wishes to accomplish...

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. shutting out other groups who oppose this war is not helpful, imho
we will spend all our time alienating and policing our supporters and causing even more infighting.

it's just my opinion but i don't think calling the cops on our supporters will be good for the cause we all our struggling for.

peace
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. No arrests that I know of...
...but that was a concern with other onlookers who started asking questions of the organizers: "Are we now going to start alienating our allies from Camp Casey?"

I tried to help explain the organizers' position to them, and told the onlookers about my own failed attempt to distribute Texas is BUCINDYSH COUNTRY bumper stickers and take donations for them, with every penny going to help the organizers buy more food for the campsite. Unfortunately, the stickers have not shown up yet, so if we're unable to make it to Crawford for the final weekend, I'll have to distribute the stickers elsewhere.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. "the socialist-leaning anti-war protest in DC on Sept 24th" WTF?
Whats that ?
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. A.N.S.W.E.R. is one of the two primary organizers
Thus, the "pro-socialist" comment. I find some of their overall goals appealing, but A.N.S.W.E.R. has had its own problems with message focus and even accusations of anti-Semitism (as opposed to anti-Zionism).
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Good question.
Who is the ISO to decide that that protest is socialist-leaning?
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
20. If they want to come and support Cindy
that's fine. But the selfishness involved in appropriating the initiative of what Cindy started is reprehensible, imo. Too many self-absorbed people in this country already.

What is the noble cause for which Casey Sheehan died

If that's what they're there for, fine, otherwise find your own field and set up a booth there to deliver whatever your message is.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
21. Real smart...
With a lot of foresight. Who could have predicted such a thing?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
26. Question: if the money went to Crawford Peace House would that be ok?
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carpetbagger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. Probably not.
My guess is that this has more to do with message and purpose. Turning the Crawford protest into a left-wing flea market destroys it. No amount of money (barring the defections of a few trust fund babies) can buy what the Crawford protests have done.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
27. When we were there, I overheard a conversation
between one of the leaders of the camp and the PETA folks. The camp leader made it very clear that the focus and the purpose of this is the Iraq war and Cindy's desire to speak to the president. Other political organizations are more than welcome to come to the camp and to the Peace House to lend support but they may NOT do anything to divert attention from Cindy or her cause.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. GOOD. This is Cindy's action
Support her and put away all the other crap for the day!
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. Support Cindy not a million other causes!
This is her action!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Yes it is
but don't you think DU is more in tune with Cindy's cause than PETA?
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Yes, I do
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 11:49 AM by Generic Other
We are there to support Cindy. We have been there since Day One. If they want us to back off, then I will do it.

But my support and DUs support has been important.

Go backwards through my links. They go back to the beginning of this action. ALL focused on Cindy. People here put their lives on hold for Camp Casey. We deserve praise and gratitude for our actions for Cindy not a spit in the face.

LINK:
8/21 ALL DU Cindy threads DAY 15
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
80. What's PETA's objective regarding Iraq?
Making sure the troops have vegan MRE's?
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
76. I agree, stick with origunal message/purpose of Camp Casey!!
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
34. It's ashame that these different groups are mudding the waters
For Cindy Sheehan.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
42. Have the Mumiamaniacs shown up yet? n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
48. Glad to hear it.
It's Cindy's protest.

Her request is simple.

They should be prohibited.
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
51. Maybe the took some advice from this thread.......
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
55. I used to have to fight off the Socialists on my way to class every day...
back in college, where they'd flap the Socialist Worker in your face as soon as you left the student union. I came to think of them like the weather, always there, but more or less meaningless...

If it were my protest, I'd leave them alone, but Cindy Sheehan has the right to make her protest anything she wants it to be, IMHO.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
101. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
babyk Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
56. whats wrong with Howard Zinn books?
thats some of the best reading out there.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. welcome to DU & there is NOTHING wrong with ZINN'z books
he has been a wonderful educator for decades and a fighter for truth & justice at the same time.

this is a very worrisome development =(

peace
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Howard Zinn is a hero, but this is NOT THE TIME
for his POV to enter this movement.

We have to focus on one thing and one thing only. BUSH LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT THIS WAR. That's impeachable.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. BULLSHIT! he was/IS part of the movement before most of us were born!!!
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 12:49 PM by bpilgrim
we are all part of the TRUTH MOVEMENT and bringing our troops home.

what NONSENSE!

the first time i heard will blathering about 'controlling the MSG' i knew there was gonna be trouble from the best & the brightest :puke:

peace
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. You don't get it.
Howard Zinn is well known and respected by the studious far left. His statements are considered VERY Radical by mainstream America. This is NOT the time to introduce Radical thought, haven't you seen the swift boating of Cindy over an Israeli/Palestinian comment that she may not have even made? She needs Howard Zinn's name next to hers like she needs a hole in the head. You may as well have Noam Chomsky out there too and you will just have zero credibility at that point.

Sleepy America is NOT ready for what we know at this time. Not yet.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. oh, i get it alright, we got a bunch of young know-it-alls who think they
can control the MSG of the M$MWs by calling the cops on our supporters.

:crazy:

gl

peace
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Then he can get his ass to Camp Casey
instead of using it as a vending booth.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. yeah, sure
nevermind

peace
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Amazon.com is a great way to sell books.
Why would Zinn need to sell them at Camp Casy? Oh yeah. Because he probably didn't even know they were being sold there.

Funny, that the socialists invade Camp Casey, to SELL things..........
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. Hahahaha!
You're right, nice irony!
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
105. lol- poignent observation! nt
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RSchewe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
75. What else is new, activists shooting themselves in the foot...
Keep muddying the message and see how that is going to help.

Yeah, lets bring in ANSWER and all the environmental groups. How about Gay rights people and pro-choice groups? You can't bring some and not others... We can make this a nice big cornucopia of issues all we will need after that is some drugs and a concert and then just rename Camp Casey to Woodstock 2005.

What a joke.

What does PETA, even though they do great things, have to do with the war?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
79. Good. Authoritarian leftists pull this all the time--trying to hijack
someone else's cause.

Ha ha, fuckers.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. fyi: this is america's cause
Good. Authoritarian leftists pull this all the time--call the cops on their supporters.

:crazy:

peace
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. They're trying to hijack Ms. Sheehan's efforts in behalf of their
larger, unrelated socialist agenda. Ms. Sheehan is not there to promote socialism. Their presence is a distraction and a detriment.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. if you say so - n/t
peace
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RSchewe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Indeed, and it is selfish to do infuse these unrelated issues. n/t
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. I sympathize...
I still hold, however, that Camp Casey has its own vibe. And that vibe centers around a single grieving mother who wants Bush to answer some hard questions about Iraq.

The ISO wants some of those questions answered, too. So does ANSWER. But they've got their own groove going, and far be it from me to stop them. Hell, they've got Chumbawamba pulling for them, and I love those guys.

But, unless you want Camp Casey or any socio-political gathering to turn into a free-for-all, sometimes you just have to draw a line in the dirt and say "Nothing further."

I hope the ISO and the organizers reach some sort of agreement, and that both sides will keep to that agreement. That's the resolution that I want to see most of all.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. As opposed to the authoritarian message discipline
required by the freedom-loving leftists... :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. How old are you, 12? eom
Edited on Sun Aug-21-05 01:54 PM by geek tragedy
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Would both of you please ramp it down a few notches?
Please, guys. I don't want to bring in a moderator.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
103. because he doesn't support socialism he's a moderate bushlite?
then can i call you an extremist diet stalin, sweetened with splenda?
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name not needed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. Congratulations. You're officially the stupidest person on this website.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. it's not Camp Leftist
it's Camp Casey.

Sheehan is not talking about left vs. right, she's talking about her son and about the war.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. I want you to be on record then:
Are Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, Castro, Mao the true left?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dxstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
94. Even if one were to buy into the argument against the Socialists...
I don't see HOW they can be disenfrachising DA and DU; we're all on the EXACT same page...

:wtf:

I undestand the desire for focus; but some slippery slopes are slipperier than others...
I mean, were the Socialist REALLY hijacking anything? Are DA and his Merry Pranksters really taking over the stage and the microphones?
One little table or tent and a few banners does not a hijacking make...
There has to be a certain measure of balance here, and forcible ejections rather than reasonable negotiated settlements on these questions seem to bode poorly for the future of this movement we're STILL trying to get off the ground, 5 years after the fact...
Otherwise, meet the new boss... same as the old boss...
d
ps: Maybe the Socialists were behaving like real asshats themselves... but even then, one could think of a better way of dealing with this, such as asking them and others like them to set up in a certain area just off from the main one, so as to delineate those with obviously related but divergent interests... NOT far away, NOT right by the porta-potties, just an adjacent camp RIGHT next to the other main area, for those wishing to look into other related areas of interest...
I think it could all be handled much smoother than the ham-handed and divisive way they're currently approaching this...
We need to be MORE inclusive; we need MORE allies, not LESS.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
106. Locking...
This has become inflammatory.
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