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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:36 PM
Original message
Democrats must understand that American people are dumb and ignorant
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 12:46 PM by kentuck
Not meant as a putdown, but stated as a fact. And when they talk to the "American people", they need to speak to them in much simpler laguage. A very small percentage really understands intellectual discussion of the issues. They want it put on a bumpersticker for them. It does no good for our candidates to come out with a 12-step program to get our economy going again. Democrats need to re-learn language. They need to learn to talk with the people like they are in the first grade. Don't confuse them or waste their time with "political" talk.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. I used to didn't think so....
But when the average to poor people continue to help put Republicans in office who don't even know that they exist....it really makes you stop and think...
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. Ok American confidence in the news media is at an all time low,
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 04:39 AM by Melodybe
America's confidence in the Bush is at an all time low. PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP!

You realise that you help do their work for them when you talk about how stupid the American people are. They can only get away with the evil if everyone thinks that everyone else is too stupid to get it.

Sorry to rag on ya, but I HATE threads like this.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. 50-100 million people have been smacked in the face with evil
... and are still vouching for it as the paragon of righteousness.

Sure, that's waking up. Most of everyone else (200-250 million) is either cynically apathetic or distrusted these freaks going in and just got more vocal about it.
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Southsideirish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rethugs have known this for a long time. What do you think Limbaugh
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 12:42 PM by Southsideirish
meant when he talked about the "sheeple."
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bush does it.
If you listen to him talk, it's a few simple ideas repeated over and over again.

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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
75. Yep, that's signature Rove.
If you have trouble, please just refer to the same three talking points on these three cards and repeat over and over again. The smart will catch on to you, but your base won't.

Also a Rovian maneuver is never, ever, I don't care if you're at GUNPOINT, EVER admit you made a mistake. EVER. Voters don't care about right or wrong, they want their candidates to be statuesque and unbending. Fallibility = WEAK. All that stuff about "a real man admits when he's wrong" is horsepiles uttered by the enablers of the mediocre. *, you be the tough, Marlboro Cowboy daddy they want and need.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
115. I used to think it was ignorance....
Now I fear it's something else.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ignorant, yes, dumb? Not really. Americans are LAZY by and large what
with being addicted to teevee and radio... just think; they're addicted to 'getting' information fed to them in 12 second sound bytes, then run around waving their arms (see the 600+ false terror alerts) in horror.

Americans are lazy. They buy what they're told to; listen to the music spoon fed them by morons in the radio biz; watch the movies the suits n ties tell them to watch and actually believe that talking heads on teevee are reliable sources of genuine truth, news and information.

Americans don't READ. They don't apply logic, they don't discern; they have no critical thought process... they simply take the easy way out, and now, thanks to that apathy, we have the new hitler in the white house controlled by the New Americanazis in the republican party.

Thanks.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
98. I think you've hit the crux of it.
:thumbsup:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. More ignorance than "dumb"
It's mostly that they just don't care.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've deal with the public on a daily basis
People really aren't dumb just completely ignorant of the big picture. They fail to see how what happens in the world affects them and future generations. To be intellectual takes too much energy. They just think that someone else will fix the problems of the world. Also, they are quite selfish in thinking that they don't need to worry about world hunger, environmental disaster, and general strife because they are fine, relatively speaking, where they are. It is quite pathetic really.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Dumb and ignorant" are Dems who dont communicate effectively.
All politicians--Dems included--are supposed to make an effort to put their message in a form that their intended audience will understand and accept. THis is simple marketing.

If a Democrat insisted upon speaking English to a Spanish speaking community, would we call the Spanish speakers "dumb and ignorant"?
Of course not!

This thread is sort of dumb and ignorant, if you ask me.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Come spend some time in Nebraska talking to Bush supporters...
and I bet that you'll change your opinion.

After nearly 20 years here, I can confidently state that many, many, many people here are genuinely and unquestionably ignorant and stupid.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. It's a waste of time to talk to the willfully ignorant.
They don't want to know.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
88. But *WHY* are they Bush supporters?
They weren't born that way. It's not instinctual. So what is it that persuades them? We can be sure upfront that it's lies, whatever it is, but what is it? And what makes if persuasive?

Dismissing other people out of hand is rarely helpful.
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Nimble_Idea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #88
106. Dude where have you been sleeping.
Listen to talk radio and hear what garbage is fed to these people.
They vote the way they do because Thugs far smarter and evil than they are manipulate them.
It's called White Power and dixie and all it implies.
That's all you need to know to figure those sheep out.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #106
108. That kind of 'all you need to know' posterisation has never worked for me
I've found that usually things are more complicated than 'they hate us for our freedoms'.
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Nimble_Idea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #108
118. but they do hate us
eom.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Unfortunately, speaking English on a level above third grade to the
"average american" seems to leave most English speaking people (51% anyway) in a daze. Then they call the speaker an elitist.

America, the land of stupidmotherfuckers.

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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. yeah, we as democrats, should inject more religion
into the way we talk.

while we're at it, let's dispense with reason too . . . "they hate us for our freedom" DOES make sense doesn't it?

while we're at it, let's rally against the gays and minorities (that would play well in Barefoot, Alabama).

and tolerance, care for the downtrodden, and progressive ideas? who needs that when we can just be pious and spit out non sequiturs and illogic!

yeah riggggght . . .
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journalist3072 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. The dumbing down of America....an explanation
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 01:23 PM by journalist3072
I don't think there's any doubt that many Americans are being dumbed down.

Here's the way I look at it.

Many Americans only get their information in 30 or 60-second soundbites.

Let's say, for example, you are a working mother, and the only time you get to hear news and information is listening to talk radio, while you are in the car driving your child to soccer practice. If this is the case with you, then you are likely to pick up a soundbite of some right-winger (incorrectly) stating that Valerie Plame was NOT a covert CIA operative. Or, you will here them say Joe Wilson claims Dick Cheney's office sent him to Niger.

Of course,neither one of these statements are true. But if you are a busy Mom, you might not have the time to go home, do your research, and realize that you've been lied to by sone right-wing nut.

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Don't know when the dumbing down started
During the very immediate "Post-Sputnik" era of the late 1950's schools seemed to be toughening up.

Some time in the Viet-Nam "Grade Inflation" era and the "Whole Child" era we entered into a dumbing down of the schools.

After the "Urban Riots" of the Late 60's, and Nixon's "Southern Strategy" politics and the News Media started "dumbing down."

By the 1980's"Dumbing Down" was the thing.

And this era where the only issues in public school governance seem to be prayer and the flag salute and the Ten Commandments and "Intelligent Design" and "Creationism" is just more dumbing down.

Even on "Progressive" web sites - and in "Progressive" clubs and Rallies and Marches -- there is dumbing down (compared to say the 1960's -- and definitely compared to the 1950's). And we "Progressives" are supposed to be more intelligent and better informed.

As kids growing up in the late 40's and in the 1950's - my wife and I both grew up in homes where the day's news was the dinner table topic of discussion - including the minutia of bond issues and school issues.

Maybe that's it - parents don't discuss those issues at dinner. ;)
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
128. 1950's -- the advent of the TV
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 08:21 AM by GreenArrow
and ad culture...Mass media and entertainment in general...The rise of teens and children as a special consumer class.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
70. I'm a busy single Mom and I have the time
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 10:55 PM by Clark2008
Of course, I was a journalist for 12 years, so, um... I'm not a good example. :)

However, I agree with your premise and would like to expand on it and a couple of other posts above.

It's not necessarily that American's don't WANT to read - our lifestyle is such that there's very little time in which TO read. Reading requires that we're not working 12-hour days, not driving to and from work, not cooking, sleeping, cleaning, mowing, etc.

Perhaps Europe - and, for that matter, many blue cities - have it over rural America because of the transit systems and lifestyle: more time to sit and read.

On edit: I noticed in Europe, as well, that television was a secondary resource and not the primary one. In other words, television was the second choice in news (they read on the Tube) to entertainment (they go out to shows, movies, plays, museums) to conversation (I never once heard a conversation on the transit system that included last night's telly program, although I'm sure it happens. It's just they had other, more interesting things to knock off, first).
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. you make a good point
especially the amount of time Americans spend driving. And so they should also be reading --books, newspapers or DU in their spare time? What spare time?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. That's a good point....
But at some moment just before they fall asleep from exhaustion, do they ever ask themselves why?
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Exactly.
I gave up television in order to read - books, newspapers online, DU, other blogs - but, let's face it, most Americans will NOT give up television to replace it with reading!

However, if they had four weeks vacation - like the Europeans - or someone else driving their commute - like the Europeans - or a later evening, later morning - like the Europeans - they might find more time to read - like the Europeans.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #72
127. "The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."
Great line from Repo man, and it's truer than I realized.

Mind you, it's uttered by a character who doesn't have the firmest grasp on reality (or does he?)
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Agreed. I've spent most of my life in "red" states (not by choice!)...
and it's becoming more and more apparent that the average voter here doesn't have any interest in intellectual political discussion. They're all about popularity contests and slogans.

60% of my state currently approves of Bush, and frankly, it doesn't surprise me. Seeing Bush for what he is would take a little effort, and these apathetic people can't be bothered with that. Their parents voted Republican, by God (pun intended), so they will, too.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is the principle the advertising industry has understood
from its inception. Reduce the concept you are trying to sell to a slogan, a little rhyming jingle helps and then repeat it over and over again continuously. The Bush administration does this effectively. This is why Prezidunce Moran doesn't need to even make any sense when he talks. All he has to do is make sure he works all the buzz words into his speeches: terra, freedoms, killing babies and American values.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Well, Many DU'ers In Their Intellectual Superiority, Can Exhibit Great
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 02:18 PM by cryingshame
skill with Rational/Analytical Thought... but they are almost retarded when it comes to understanding the Emotive and SupraRational Thought.

In fact, they'll denigrate that part of our Collective Selves.

It's as if the Rational (Male) is supreme and the Emotive (Female) is less valuable.

BTW, I agree with your post wholeheartedly.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
84. so you're saying
that successful selling of a "message" depends on emotive and suprarational thought (intuition?) --

so perhaps that's why people who respond on that level seem "dumb" to those who depend heavily on the analytical/rational?

so perhaps those people are not "dumb" but they absorb information in a different way? So the Dems should pitch their message that way, NOT "dumb it down?

---have I got your meaning, cryingshame?

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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #84
94. Yes, And You Elaborated Beautifully! Thanks
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 07:45 AM by cryingshame
especially for not taking my post the 'wrong' way.

In part, it has to do with learing how to communicate using symbols.
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RSchewe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. I would maybe phrase that differently...
I think people in America are afraid to talk politics like it is taboo and are afraid of heated debate resulting from it. Maybe it is also that people are to immersed in pop culture to care about much else. People seem to be very disconnected from politics for the most part. I can be wrong but that is at least how it seems to me.
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. This should be a top ten point on Howard Dean's bulletin board!
Sad but true. I agree with radwriter that it is more ignorance and laziness than "dumbness" but the results are pretty much the same. I truly believe that this is the reason that Mr. Gore did not win in a landslide. He underestimated the ignorance and the anti-intellectual climate that has been created and nurtured by the RW over the last twenty to thirty years.

How does one get in touch with Dr. Dean? I'd love to have a conversation with him on topics such as this. I wonder what Hillary thinks? If we don't deal with this fact then we, as Democratic Progressives, are going to be living with the DoDo, imho.
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OrlandoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. Seriously, crawling out of this hole is a 20-year project.
We have to put some serious effort into improving our public schools. They have become nothing more than idiot factories.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. Are we too dumb to
support a democracy.Or are we too lazy?Either way it's frustrating!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. Trouble is, many don't want to know
My boss has told me time and again that he doesn't listen to the news-just sports. Well, the other day he was talking to me on his cell and realized he had an incoming call he didn't want to take. He begged me to stay on the line, saying anything. Sooooo.....I started with my usual anti-Bush stuff, then switched to No Child Left Behind. He's got a boy 14, smart, a star athlete-and he had no clue that recruiters had access to all the information about the kid. I told him to wait about two more years, and then he'd know-unless he wanted to sign a paper that kept information about his kid private. He was shocked and angry, but not sure if it "would be right" not to give the gov't. the information. So you see what we're up against.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Aye -- the authoritarians
Our parents were taught to respect authority, at all costs. I have the same thing with my father -- after years and years of being beaten down, as a union coal miner, he finally surrendered, and pretty much eats up anything that anyone in a suit tells him -- and he's a Democrat. To him, the government is never the enemy -- only blacks and gays.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. but my boss is a lot younger than I am
We're talking over a decade younger. He came from a well to do family and never served in the military-too young for Viet Nam, too old for Gulf War I. I don't even know if he ever had to worry about the draft-I doubt it. It's the fact that he's a young man who has this "yes massa" mentality that worries me.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. justice for the working man and woman
good pay, good benefits

Making America a better place for YOU to live and work

Bringing the good jobs back home
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. You have to remember --
-- their "dumbness" is due to the kind of media we have now. Unless they have some other sources of information whereby they realize they are being lied to and manipulated, why would they think so?

And some do come to that realization. Most people are reasonable, and given the opportunity to understand the truth, would make very different choices. That is why we have to establish honest media again.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. media's not a service
the 'news' is a political weapon, used by pushers of bad dope. there is only so much airwave/newspaper/tv and they form the bulk of what people hear, read and are shown regarding public affairs. This total is regulated, and it's owned/operated by certain interests. Like Michael moore says, if profit was the only motive, general motors would sell crack...but profits aren't the only motive: power is. That is why, for many years, i have had to go outta my way to access media that did not push the bad dope, that sold real thing....oftentimes, i buy the bad dope knowing it's bad, but hope there's a little buzz outta it (yeah sure!)...there's simply no choice. Even if the total news made not a cent, it wouldn't matter to the pusherman if very few bought his bad dope; the important thing is no one's selling the good stuff, because, well the bad dope pushers hog all the corners and lots and alleyways...the object is to prevent good stuff from getting sold to regular people, who haven't time to go looking, so get stuck with mothball crack, or basil sage marajuwanna or aspirin lsd....
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. Wow. Nice thread title.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. But most people don't think "they" themselves are dumb...
It's always the "other" guy. Much like when people pass us going too fast, and we think, "that dumbass is going to get killed if he doesn't slow down". Even as we ourselves, may be speeding most of the time... :)
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. you'll hear this on Malloy's bumper music from time to time
Da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da
Da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da

< Andy C >
Here we go now, keep it low-brow
Get stupid (Why?) Cause I know how
Check my brain in, be a idiot
Act lame and stay ignorant
Be remedial, wear the dunce cap
Slouch over and drool like a hunchback
Don't discuss things, shout the last word
Put your good sense out to pasture
Drop your IQ, that's what I do
My advice to girls and guys who
Wanna be a Nobel Prize finalist
Smack the scientist, try apply in this
Keep the customers comin around
If you're smart then you better start dumbin it down
Don't say anything too profound
Dumb - it - down

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ithinkmyliverhurts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
26. And that's one tough combination.
Not to know something is one thing. It can be corrected. Not to care about knowing something about something is brutal. But to know something about something, but then to convince oneself that that something is really nothing--or something else other than something--well, that's just dangerous.

Or something like that.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. "vincible ignorance"
You know that you don't know but you don't think it really matters...
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
77. Not Sure Who Said It -- Twain I Think...
I paraphrase:

It's not the things we don't know that hurt us. It's the things we think we know, but we are wrong, that do us in.

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Stirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
28. No they do not. They need to speak about *class issues*.
The American people are not stupid, they're cynical. Even if many can't articulate it, they see the manipulation inherent in our two party, wedge issue system of government.

The Democrats need to speak as true populists. They need to clearly state that the so-called "culture war" is only a distraction from the real fight- Corporate America against Americans. Tell the American people played for suckers. Frame everything like that, consistently- and let the Republicans line up with Corporate America every time.
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chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. They are also racist and homophobic
Look at the strength of the repukes in the South. Look at how the drive to 'protect marriage' fared during the 2004 election.
The DLC wants us to love the military, and plays to the homophobic crowd to a certain extent. Some colleges ban military recruiters because of 'don't ask, don't tell.' The DLC would have that dropped.
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kevsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. You left out superstitious and gullible. /nt
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
78. Oh, here comes the South bashing again.
:eyes:

How many times can I say this: it's BECAUSE of the South bashing that Democrats lost the South.

The Republicans haven't won it on racism or protecting marriage or bashing gays.

They've won it because they "protected" Southerners by standing up when other people - wrongly - accused the South of being backward. That's it in a nutshell.

I'm not backward or ignorant. I have a dentist and shoes. I don't drink moonshine.

Stop with the blatant stereotyping and you'll go much further with your arguement.
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chaumont58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #78
97. Did Nixon have a Southern Strategy?
Was that based on something other than racism? Should it be called 'a strategy in a direction other than north, east or west?'

Aside from the semantics, are you saying there is no truth to the idea racism plays a large part in repuke domination of Southern politics?

Why does the South have to be 'protected' from bad words coming from evil people? Sticks and stones.....

I'm from the West in general and California in particular. We've been bashed for years. Oregon and Colorado had road signs: Don't californicate (insert state name). So what? I was a GI many, many years ago. To GIs from other states, California wasn't the golden state, it was the 'queer state,' I suppose because California has some laws protecting 'queers' from beatings. Again, so what? Don't like California? Don't come out here, and if you happen to be here now, don't let the exit door hit you in the ass on your way out.

I don't understand this Southern obsession with how other regions perceive them? What ever that perception, it didn't come about in a vacuum. If someone from Idaho thinks most Southerns drink corn pone and wear shoes only on Saturday night, why would you give a rat's ass? Is there an actual economic manifestation?

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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. Not so much "protected" as the fact that if you call any other
group by a name, there is someone there to stand up and tell you to shut up.

The media continues to portray Southerners as a bunch of country bumpkins - even though there are country bumpkins in every state - and gets away with it. That was my point.

In fact, one of the first shows to ever portray Southern women as anything more than sexy bubbleheads was "Designing Women," and that was written by two Democrats.

Yes, Nixon had a Southern Strategy, but my God, I was an infant when that was inacted. This most recent swing has been about standing up against the silly stereotypes that are manifested in popular media.

And, yes, there are some economic manifestations. People in other regions think Southerners are stupid because we talk more slowly (which isn't true) and won't hire us. There have been studies conducted about this, but I don't feel like going and looking them up.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
31. i refuse kentuck i just refuse. why do you think the people are so dumb
because they have been being dumb down consistantly alst decade especially during bush time. i refuse and tell my children i refuse to allow them to be dumb down. they had better use their brain to follow me. i have high expectation,. i will not feed into the dumbing down of america. i tell my friends, exactly i expect more out of them, i especially tell my older nieces and nephews and their friends, i will not play their dumb down game

no no no
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
34. Y'know, that's rubbish and I'm really shocked to see it coming
from you. Did you forget the 'sarcasm' disclaimer?

Working people are plenty smart enough. Read union literature.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Prove it.
I would like very much to believe it.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. As I said: read union (trade union) lit. People know what the score is.
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 04:06 PM by Mairead
A few snippits, from "Solidarity", my union's quarterly journal:

LTE: Government has not been on our side, nor on the side of the average American, in quite a while. We must bring the full weight of our union to bear at the ballot box. Our members have always stood for social justice and common sense. We sought fairness and equality. And we have always been advocates for dignity and responsibility in our workplaces and comminunities.

There seems to be a sufficient amount of misery affecting us. I believe the time has come to share that misery with the people who are causing it!


And another:

LTE: Let us set some goals for our community -- hunger eliminated, warm shelter for all, opportunity for all, hate and discrimination eliminated, complete health care for all, education for all. Let's make our deeds be a true reflection of our values!

And another:

Article: Trade deficit = LOST JOBS!

The US trade surplus in services has been shrinking in the past 2 years, indicating that the jobs of workers in service industries--from graphic arts to college teaching--can also be lost as companies move production abroad. ...

Wal-Mart alone imported $20G worth of goods from China in 2004


And another:

Quote: This is a fight over what kind of people we are --- and what kind of America we want. DO we want an America that's simply a collection of individuals unconnected to one another? Or do we want an America where we care about one another and about our common good?

And yet another:

Q: How do you see this country getting health care for everyone?

A: It requires a regime change in Washington. As long as corporations are allowed to profit off people getting sick, nothing's going to change.


(edit; I missed out a good one, by the guy who answered the Q above) The battle lines are being drawn with Bush pushing his extremist political agenda that is changing the laws of the land to benefit the corporate greed agenda at the expense of everyone else. ...the bankruptcy bill which is nothing more than a gift to the credit-card companies and banks. In the past, when people were victimised by predatory lenders or became ill, they could find relief in bankruptcy court and move on with their lives. Now that will no longer happen. This bill has turned the government into a collection agency for the banks. ... Tax cuts for the rich; program cuts for the rest of us.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I don't doubt that most union people know what's going on...
but what percentage is that? BUT I sincerely doubt that the Walmart employees and other Nascar afficianados are as aware as your union brothers and sisters?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. It's not as tho union members are of a different species.
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 04:24 PM by Mairead
Recall the data from NORC surveys: the majority of USAians--from 55 to 80%, depending on the issue--are in favor of social justice DESPITE the relentless, unending propaganda by the ruling class. To my mind, that shows that folk in general are both intelligent and have good character. Does it say something different to you?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. "Social justice" ?
Surely there is more than one definition? Some might see "social justice" as doing away with Affirmative Action so white folks aren't discriminated against? And I would not say that these folks do not have as good a character as everyone else. But they are easily manipulated and swayed by political slogans and nationalsitic flag-waving, contrary to the facts right in front of their noses...
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. oops, sorry, I thought we shared a common definition
'Social justice' is the usual umbrella rubric for universal healthcare, edu for all, living wage, political freedom, democracy, etc.

As to people being easily manipulated, look at 'field dependence/independence', e.g. here: http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0070366055/student_view0/chapter12/chapter_outline.html
Many people are 'field dependent', i.e. they have inbuilt difficulty with analysing things, separating figure from ground. Things tend to blur together for them. It has nothing at all to do with intelligence or anything similar; if they have enough time, they can tease things apart just fine...but it does take them more time. And if they don't have the time, then they're vulnerable to being BS'd by the unscrupulous. So the trick is not to patronise them, but provide them clear, credible information that's had the noise stripped off.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. I agree with that analysis...
and I may agree with your definition of "social justice" but that does not mean everyone would agree with us, ergo my example about Affirmative Action.... :)
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
87. Why would anyone have to agree the meaning of "social justice"?
I only used that as an umbrella term; I could have laundry-listed the things that, as we know from NORC, folk *do* support.

As to the people who are real cack-thinkers, e.g. racist to the marrow, and will remain so til their dying breaths, impervious to reason: I don't think we need take them into account. It's only another sort of mental disorder, and 99.99% of folk who have it are politically negligible, too rigid ever to rise above where they start in life.

Most of the folk who want AA to end (to use your example) take that position out of fear: so long as there's artificial scarcity, folk go crazy. Not unreasonably, they don't want to be shunted aside. End the scarcity, end the -isms. Nobody elbows others out of the way to get the last loaf of bread at the grocer's unless they think there's not going to be any more bread for awhile.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Anti-Intellectualism
The concept begins right from Kindergarten. Smart kids are shunned. Smart kids are called names. Being smart is not cool.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. But that's the parents' fault. And they're that way because of the ruling
class. The only 'smart' the ruling class wants is TAME smart. BIDDABLE smart. Wild smart? Uh-uh, crush them.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
42. Part of the problem is the attention span of many Americans
Watch most music videos,movies,commercials,TV shows and its mostly "quick cuts".Just for the fun of it,count how many seconds between each shot.Most of the time its 2 seconds at best.

The GOP is good at playing to people who watch these types of programs.Quick,to the point,and not much room for anything else.

Im not saying we should dumb down the message but we should be able to distill our views into something that they can understand without watering it down.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. "distill without watering down"
Bingo! That's exactly what's needed. No watering down, no talking down. Clear distillation of the substantial bits.

But there's a problem with that, namely that in order to distill out the substance, there has to BE substance. And LBJ's time was the last time the Dem party had any substance. Since then it's been BS, which doesn't distill well at all, at all.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
43. Or maybe the problem is that many Americans feel that Democrats look
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 04:45 PM by geek tragedy
down their noses at them.

As an example, our party hasn't had a coherent approach to foreign policy in decade. Can't blame that on those damn stupid voters.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
47. it's almost as if the education system was meant to manufacture retards
Seriously. Rote drill can (and should) bolt down arithmetic in one year or less. What are the schools doing repeating this process for a decade or more instead of algebra, calculus, and so on? History books superficially cover the American Revolution and a litany of presidents' names, and never actually cover e.g. the rest of the world, European history, Asian history, etc. Foreign language education is maybe a year or two in high school, if even that, when psychology has known for decades that foreign language education is far more successful in earlier childhood and when sustained for much longer. "Literature" consists of maybe "Shakespeare's Greatest Hits" and Uncle Tom's Cabin, then maybe a couple of "book reviews" of Stephen King and Tom Clancy -like affairs, if even that much.

The curriculum in the US is bizarre and far beyond hollow. It's teaching nothing beyond obedience. I don't know what a solution would be, but it's clear that this state of affairs has a direct bearing on the intellectual standards and capabilities of the populace.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Nah, not mentally-slow people--*biddable* people. Work units.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
51. wrong
People aren't dumb. People are human. People care about what affects them personally.

If a person knows nothing of CAFTA and doesn't take the time to understand its implications, you will never ever get that person to care about CAFTA.

The same goes for any issue out there. You have to show people how the maneuverings of commerce, government and greed touch them in a tangible way.

I worked in the public sector for 25 years. People aren't dumb. People are busy living their lives.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. "People are busy living their lives."
If people are busy living their lives, don't their lives sometimes cross with the reality of what is happening around them that is political, for example, their neighbors son or daughter may get killed in Iraq. Do they go on "living their lives" or do they start to question what is happening around them? Maybe it will be their kids next? Or are they still so "busy" living their lives that they just don't give a damn?
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. "busy" living their lives"
That is a poor excuse for being ignorant. People have not been taught in schools how government, local, state and national effects their lives and why they should care about their fellow human beings. Most people view "politics" as boring, seamy, beyond their control and other factors.

On the other hand there are activistis. One does notice that quite a few people that many on DU view as dumbasses are active in anti-abortion and anti-Gay issues. In fact the Fascist Fundies are quite active and vocal about their issues. This topic has benn discussed hundreds of times on DU. It is not a simple topic because many complex factors are involved.
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Lannes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. We have to do a better job of spreading the message
Ive spoken to many people who only had a very basic understanding of what is going on with this administration if that.

Some work ridiculous hours,have family obligations,and arent internet savvy.They arent sure what to believe or where to go to find the truth.

If they have internet access I point them to some progressive websites and some news orgs from overseas.If they dont I print out pages from them to read at their convenience.

Most of us know alot of great resources for information about was is being done to this country.Some people want to know the truth but need our help pointing out where to go to make an informed opinion.

We shouldnt lump them all together with the "dead enders" who wont listen or dont care no matter what proof we offer them.Those people I have no sympathy for.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
90. It's not that they don't give a damn, it's that they don't have the time
to sit down and work their way through all the bullshit. Nor, because of the way things are structured, would they know what to do with the result. We here all know that what's going on in DC is a series of international crimes, but I don't see us getting together to go after the criminals. Why is that?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
55. Typical DU elitism
Absolute bullshit. How about this: You're fucking dumb and ignorant. Like that?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I can handle that...
:) How's that?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. Fine with me
With the proviso that I was referring specifically to your point in the original thread. Other than that, you might be the smartest most well informed guy on earth, for all i know. ;-)
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Not politically correct, I will admit...
But we're not talking about pre-election - we're talking about after the facts. Dumb and ignorant is very kind, in my opinion. It's really not that different from what Lakoff is saying with framing the issues, other than maybe a little too blunt...and politically incorrect..in my opinion.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #65
105. Oh, right, you're so daring and "politically incorrect"
Yeah, whatever, it's so cutting edge to call people stupid all the time and aggrandize yourself as one of the chosen. How could I have not seen that you were just being real and blunt and not a complete elitist self-gratitifed asshat? My mistake.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #105
111. Look in the mirror....
Your arrogance is showing. Surely you did not include yourself in the "dumb or stupid" category? Why do you think anyone else would? Need I tell you?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #111
121. That's where you're wrong
If not thinking that the American public is dumb or ignorant is itself dumb or ignorant, then I proudly accept that label. How you can accuse anyone of arrogance after declaring that most folks are dumb and ignorant is a great mystery to me, possibly because of my stupidity and ignorance...:eyes:
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
57. Democrats must understand that blanket statements will get them killed.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. We will now return to the fantasy world...
where everybody is bright, intelligent, well-informed, and knowledgeable about world events. They vote for Bush because they agree with him and his side rather than with you and your side. As you were....
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Just so I have my DUcks in a row here, which is it?
Did Bush steal the election after exit polls indicated the election went to Kerry, or is America full of nothing but stupidity and ignorance?
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. That depends on the forum... eom
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
59. It's willful ignorance,
and I find the DLC responses on this thread both laughable and predictable.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. This thread is dumb and ignorant.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. But that doesn't necessarily make you a bad person...
:)

Most of our animals are dumb and ignorant and we still love them..
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
66. strongly disagree ...
the American people are not dumb ... but they often are unbelievably ill-informed ...

we somehow have come to believe we can sustain our democracy with an electorate that really finds most news too boring to pay attention to ... without making excuses for the MSM, the truth is that headline news and "if it bleeds, it leads" sensationalized news does better than long-winded policy explanations ...

the American people must be taught that this is unhealthy for a democracy and that they are not fulfilling their responsibilities ... that, indeed, should be a message, a tough message, that the Democratic Party delivers ... we should be critical of the public's laziness but not of the public's intelligence ...

the day we stop respecting average American citizens will be the day our democracy dies ...
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. If I say half of DU is dumb and ignorant...?
Would you think I was talking about you or those "others" ? That's a natural reaction in people. It's always the "other" people that are the dumbasses. Because they are "smarter". We need to stop wringing our hands so much.

If what you just described is not dumb, I do not know what is? But we are not supposed to say that. None of the "dumb" people will vote for us...
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. i was not criticizing the American people ...
i criticized their conduct ... there's an important difference there ...

so, if you want to say that the American people are foolish for not safeguarding their democracy by learning more about the issues, i'm in ...

but that doesn't mean that i agree they are dumb so that we should talk down to them using small simple words ...
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Mostly that is what Republicans do...
We try to treat voters as informed and wise about the issues. Is that a mistake? I think it is. We need to simplify our language. We need to dumb it down. Call it whatever makes us feel better.
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
71. Agreed...kindof
Bumper sticker answers are all that most will listen to.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. But they're not dumb....
They just like bumper sticker solutions... They could be dumb and still be very gentle and kind people... but dumb.. :)
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. Could the following be true?
IQ

AVERAGE
POP PRESIDENT
LIST STATE IQ ELECT
1 Connecticut 113 John Kerry
2 Massachusetts 111 John Kerry
3 New Jersey 111 John Kerry
4 New York 109 John Kerry
5 Rhode Island 107 John Kerry
6 Hawaii 106 John Kerry
7 Maryland 105 John Kerry
8 New Hampshire 105 John Kerry
9 Illinois 104 John Kerry
10 Delaware 103 John Kerry
11 Minnesota 102 John Kerry
12 Vermont 102 John Kerry
13 Washington 102 John Kerry
14 California 101 John Kerry
15 Pennsylvania 101 John Kerry
16 Maine 100 John Kerry
17 Virginia 100 George Bush
18 Wisconsin 100 John Kerry
19 Colorado 99 George Bush
20 Iowa 99 George Bush
21 Michigan 99 John Kerry
22 Nevada 99 George Bush
23 Ohio 99 George Bush
24 Oregon 99 John Kerry
25 Alaska 98 George Bush
26 Florida 98 George Bush
27 Missouri 98 George Bush
28 Kansas 96 George Bush
29 Nebraska 95 George Bush
30 Arizona 94 George Bush
31 Indiana 94 George Bush
32 Tennessee 94 George Bush
33 North Carolina 93 George Bush
34 West Virginia 93 George Bush
35 Arkansas 92 George Bush
36 Georgia 92 George Bush
37 Kentucky 92 George Bush
38 New Mexico 92 George Bush
39 North Dakota 92 George Bush
40 Texas 92 George Bush
41 Alabama 90 George Bush
42 Louisiana 90 George Bush
43 Montana 90 George Bush
44 Oklahoma 90 George Bush
45 South Dakota 90 George Bush
46 South Carolina 89 George Bush
47 Wyoming 89 George Bush
48 Idaho 87 George Bush
49 Utah 87 George Bush
50 Mississippi 85 George Bush
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. what source?
n/t
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smb Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #82
116. Ditto
What basis is there for those numbers, or the implication that they mean anything?
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
80. To many are
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
unbelievably ill-informed ...unbelievably ill-informed ...
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
81. If we do this...as u say kentuck
--"dumb down" language to average Americans--and not bludgeon them with long-winded monologues, do you think it will help Democrats to come off as less arrogant, condescending and elitist to those "dumb" people? That might be a good thing. (Or they might just think we're REALLY trying to put something over on them). The last plumber to come to my house (very average American on the surface) wanted to discuss Washington Week in Review... :eyes:
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
83. From time to time, we should look into the Mirror and search our souls for
clues to a better lifestyle for us and our children....

The Dems have a better Case of it...for the Basic Democratic Philosophy is for the Common Good, A Benevolent Path, an Altruistic one. Look at our American Score Board...The Pubs have not done the Common Guys and their Ladies too much good have they?

That we Dems have failed to connect adequately with Joe Sixpack seems to be the Prob.

Why is that? From Opi's Perch....a thought...

Why? We don't know why...do we?

We are Fragmented, Infiltrated, and Confused ....What is missing is a Coalescing Force/System/Org that speaks/acts/plans for we Dems. Made up of Grass Roots and volunteers...the Org would do well to do what the Pubs did...recruit and train.....

We Dems have not done our Homework. We are missing the concept, the plan, the thought, the implementation...of a bullet proof plan.

A Bullet proof plan means its all good.....a no brainer. The Dems need to search their Hearts and come to terms with the Biggest Challenge for ManKind...How to get with a plan to save ourselves from the Lunacy called Conservatism...that means we gatta get past the what and focus on the HOW
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. I agree that
Dems have had a problem getting the message out to segments of the society that really should be on our side, and were historically. So any discussion about how to do that is worthwhile, although I disagree with the starting premise of "they're stupid." That won't get us anywhere.

Anyway, I like your way of constructively looking at what the Dems have missed in the past and what we can do to change this. And the focus on the HOW is needed --put this up as a post sometime, opi.....
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. The HOW consists of forming a Plan to Coalese in a geometric way
We have to form a School, an Institute, etc that will form the backbone of GOOD over EVIL. We need a path back to the VILLAGE Level, a place where Humans Cared and Shared in a Benevolent manner. We have lost our roots somehow and have a need to return to it.

That said, we find our challenge to not FIND Good Leaders, but TRAIN THEM....after all, we do train Ship Captains, Pilots, Doctors, etc

But we fail to TRAIN OUR LEADERS so that they have an adequate Base Knowledge and are able to solve on a wide range of subjects.

White Knights on White Horses in shiny armor are not around these days...we have to go and "make um"....
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #86
91. conspiracy-proof democracy?
Sounds difficult to design. Maybe direct democracy, but even that's got holes you can drive a truck through.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Unless we even try...we will never know.....
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
95. Yeah, treating the people like they were idiots worked great for Clinton.
Clinton gambled on the intellect of the American people and won twice.

We already have a president who treats the American people like they are stupid.

The only reason why he gets votes is because he somehow seems to have more integrity than our Democrats.

Find Democrats with spine, who actually believe in something other than political expediency, and Republicans can't win.
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
96. The majority of people everywhere are dumb and ignorant.
Just yesterday I said the Germans are too stupid for democracy (in a poll 68 percent!!! said yes, in the war against terror the army should be employed WITHIN THE COUNTRY !!!) - I want the three-class voting system back. This time graduated in accordance with people's knowledge of history, politics, economics and sociology :)

------------------


Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. I am of like mind...try asking what is 7 X 9 from friends and associates
Math is an essential part of our Society

without a firm grip on math we are doomed to be ruled

Odds and Ratios is where its at

Bush equals POOR ODDs

He shows a history of being unable to comprehend his own odds...

which is dismal at best....
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
101. that's not true
I think the dems should, and do, have proper respect, and see things more accurately, than that insulting and WRONG attitude.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. OK...
Nobody thinks he/she is the dumb person you are talking about. They are smarter than that. :)

But dumb people are really rational. You must be talking about me because I fit that description to a tee. Wow! I'm glad I'm smart enough to know the difference. Not to confuse the subject. But I think I hear where you're coming from? There are no dumb and ignorant people. And if there are, we shouldn't say so. Right?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
103. Perhaps, but Democrats must also appeal to our limitless vanity
Never, never, NEVER say anything that implies, directly or indirectly, that Americans are dumb and ignorant. Never. Just don't do it. Even talking "over our heads" will make people think you're pulling a scam: Americans, particularly those of us with -- cough cough -- powerful religious convictions, believe that we already know everything worth knowing, so anything not easily comprehended is potentially trickery and probably the work of Satan.

What clever republicans have learned to do so well is to take that stupidity and put it on a pedastal as being vastly superior to any other approach, while praising their potential constituents for their deep insight. This is why republican politicos can deliver outright boldfaced lies without fear of reprisal. As long as that lie was, at some point, understood and believed by GOP backers, it is not possible for it to be an intentional error; after all, if they believed it, so could the politician who made it into a public mantra.

Thus, it is one thing to understand that Americans are, on average, of average intellect and interest. It is quite another to turn it to one's advantage.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. How do you envision the Repubs doing that ?
Just curious? And how would all the "dumb" voters react to it??
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lunchtime Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
107. The American people are not dumb and ignorant
I think they're just a bit shell shocked.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
109. That's why they like Bush..
Finally, a President that is more stupid than they are...
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smb Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
110. Prophecy

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

-- H. L. Mencken
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
112. WARNING! This thread is being Freeped. They are bumping it to the Top.
Edited on Tue Aug-02-05 10:58 AM by McCamy Taylor
Seriously. It makes DU look like a Horse's Ass to have this dumb and ignorant thread heading General Discussion so everytime it moves troo far down someone comes and moves it back up to the top.

I am only posting this because I found it at the top again.

Is there a way for the author to retire it? Newcomers who see this thread are going to be turned off.

Maybe one of us should go to the Free Republic and post a thread about how Americans are all sinners full of depravity and sloth who need the government to guide them and this is why we must have religion incorporated within the state?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. I've heard worse than "dumb and stupid"...
Who is most offended? I think it would be beneficial if it was a headline in the NYTimes. "American People Are Dumb And Stupid" ...
That said, it is up to the Admin if they wish to pull the thread.
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smb Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Huh?
Didn't you just bump it to the top with this post?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
117. Let it die, folks......
Facts are as they are and maybe we are the dumb and stupid ones? However, I think our ideas make people's lives better rather than worse. Can they say the same? If it is just a difference of opinion, I think our opinions are stronger, also.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
119. DEMS who voted for Kerry in primaries over someone else are dumb/ignorant
For that matter, whoever does not believe and does as I do are the same - for if I do the things I do it is because I believe I am right, and if you don't believe the same it must mean you are either dumb or ignorant.

I guess the same is true here on DU - those who believe MIHOP versus those who believe LIHOP, Those DEMS who voted for kerry in primaries over someone else...and so on
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. So..
I have a question. What if those individuals that chose to vote for bush, believe that they were right in doing so. What if they are smart, critically thinking individuals who believed in what they were voting in..?
What about the folks that vote straight Dem tickets all the time, would you give them credit for being smart? Even though they didnt recognize half of the names on the list that they were voting for?
What about those folks that vote Dem just because P-Diddy, or Jane Fonda, or any other celebrity said so? Are they better than the ones that voted conservative because of toby keith said so?
I do not think that Americans are dumb, in general, at all. There are those that disagree with the Philosophy that prevails here on DU, and that doesn't mean that they are dumb. I know conservatives that voted against Bush twice, and I know liberals that voted for him twice. Does that mean that either group is stupid or dumb? Nope, it means that they had differing opinions.
I am going to go against the mainstream mantra here on DU and say that bush is not going to be the downfall of the United States. Do I like him? Nope. Do I automatically disagree with what he spews, nope. Remember, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
I will be honest, I don't vote straight dems, and there have been times that I voted for folks from the right side, more than I voted for those that were on the left. It depends on the canidate, the issue and the office.
You are right, most people instantly believe that they are not in the "dumb" category that you speak of...
I, believe that I may fall into your version of dumb...but, I make choices based upon my thought and analysis, not right or left wing pundits, or BOTH right and left wing politicians that have made careers out of lying, decieving, changing votes at the last minute...
I could be real popular here if all I ever said was F*ck bush...
the right are idiots, Roll Left!
It won't happen, and thankfully, I could careless what anyone thinks.
If we had more independent thinkers, and less "sheeple" from both sides the country would be a far better place to live...No?
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
122. Not dumb and ignorant, just selfish and self serving, there is
a difference.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
123. We must be pragmatic

The Dem party definitely needs to change its message. Stubbornly proclaiming "I won't dumb my message down!" is a dead-end loser attitude that won't win us any votes. End of story.

However, I don't think "dumbing down" is precisely the answer. The real answer is to appeal to people on a subconscious level as well as a conscious one. If you scrutinize right-wing material, you'll realize it's designed to evoke a visceral emotional response, and the appeal to reason is often secondary to the appeal to emotion. The Repubs have cultivated, through repeated applications of propaganda, a small set of emotional hot buttons in the minds of their base: greed, fear of the "other," the desire to keep up with the Joneses, etc. Democrats need to find our own set of subconscious buttons to cultivate and use to drive our supporters into the polls. The key to this is to keep the subconscious message in mind with every piece of media we design, and I haven't seen Dems doing this on the level that Repubs do. When I watched campaign ads in '04, I felt that I really got an impression of what Bush was all about. Kerry, on the other hand, never gave such a concrete impression of what he was about. Of course, the images created by the commercials clashed violently with my knowledge of the realities of Kerry and the Bush administration, but those televised images were the only things that reached a lot of voters. Good night, everyone.
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Kalish Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
124. talking in twelve step plans is lame to begin with
what Democrats need to do is focus on arguing why we must do something to begin with, on the values level, on the common sense level...

for instance, instead of coming out with a 12 point plan for healthcare, just convince people that your overall ideas and the values underpinning them are right.

most people aren't policy wonks, are busy with jobs and families, you must convince them that your values are right and you can be trusted, then they'll leave a lot of the details up to you.

I'm not a policy wonk, and I get tired of the lengthy plans that go nowhere towards convincing people that the plan is the right thing to do in the first place.

fundamentals first, details second. we skip the first step way too often.
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The Minus World Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
125. What Nietzsche said about "Staring into the Abyss"
Edited on Wed Aug-03-05 02:56 AM by The Minus World
Democrats, as well as Republicans, certainly do understand this simple concept. It is a matter of how this knowledge is implemented, however, and it goes far beyond the partisan struggles of Anytown, USA, 2005 A.D.

Know that truth and non-ideological purity are the values which invariably prevail, and know that any creed to fully embrace those qualities will survive the manifold and sinister machinations the ruling class has planned for rigging the future of mankind.

Purely for pragmatism's sake, we shall say that the Democratic party is the party - of the current viable options available - that most nearly embodies those traits.

To expand upon a hackneyed metaphor: it is easy to believe that our tunnel is an endless one, simply because we see no light; but, were I to turn and whisper to you, "all tunnels are man-made, and are therefore finite", your desperation would be somewhat alleviated by the notion that, even though you may not emerge through any effort in your own lifetime, your children or grandchildren may live to see the light of day.

This is not to say that we must learn to embrace the darkness, and it is not to say that we are simply rodents condemned to crawl around in arbitrary habitrails created for us by the Republicans.

On the contrary, we must identify these dark times for what they are - and do so loudly and incessantly. We must develop means to move faster towards our goal, through organizing locally; we must work to inform others of reality so as to prevent them from despairing, by using unconventional means to get our message of reason out; we must prepare ourselves to navigate any obstruction thrown in our path, because nature's versatility is the only counter to the unnatural vice of "groupthink".

Most importantly, we must remember how to laugh at how absurd our current situation is. Jon Stewart, in all his humility, is doing a great service to thinking people everywhere.

Using strategic advertising, public relations techniques, and clever sound-bytes may work to provide immediate results, but we will have abandoned the substance and quality which made us the only viable party for well-informed, independent thinkers.

The nature of the modern Democratic party is a centrist, idealistic one, because Americans are centrist, idealistic people. It is the Republicans who have moved to push the rightmost boundary of the ideological spectrum. It is they who no longer represent the diverse interests of Americans, and we must shine a light on that fact whenever possible.

Where Democrats strive for bi-partisanship and compromise, Republicans salt the earth and lay waste to their opposition. With this technique, they have seen short-term success; by this technique, they will also meet their own unravelling. Neo-conservative hubris will continue to whittle away at the Republican party's base of active supporters, placing a handful of extremists at the helm of a party of "true believers" which can no longer hide the fact that Republicanism fails to embrace the qualities of American democracy.

Where Democrats believe in levelling with the public, and understand that an informed society is a functional one, the Republicans prefer to cast self-aggrandizing shadows upon a wall for the public and call such a puppet-show "reality" - adhering to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave", which laid a proper foundation for modern authoritarian rule.

Comfort in knowing that no ideology is radical, save for one sufficiently distorted to applaud greed, and to permit torture, economic terrorism, rape, mass-deception, starvation, unprovoked aggression, and hubris. Know that such acts meet the immediate disapprobation of the rational man; that only an infinite wall of impenetrable propaganda can serve to maintain the illusion that turns man against himself for the benefit of the ruling class.

There is no such thing as an infinite wall of propaganda. The right-wing's resources are limited by the ever-dwindling willingness of the American people to hear the same rationalizations, legalese evasions, and impotent rhetoric day after day.

Finally, know that the greatest weapon we have lies not in their infinite arsenal of money, influence and power. Rather, it lies in our ability to hold up a million small mirrors and reflect to them the image of the esurient, unrelenting beasts they have become.
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smb Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Such As...?
The Repubs have cultivated, through repeated applications of propaganda, a small set of emotional hot buttons in the minds of their base: greed, fear of the "other," the desire to keep up with the Joneses, etc. Democrats need to find our own set of subconscious buttons to cultivate and use to drive our supporters into the polls.

What do you suggest?
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. Some ideas...
The Repubs have cultivated, through repeated applications of propaganda, a small set of emotional hot buttons in the minds of their base: greed, fear of the "other," the desire to keep up with the Joneses, etc. Democrats need to find our own set of subconscious buttons to cultivate and use to drive our supporters into the polls.

What do you suggest?


Freedom, social justice, responsibile government, and financial security would be a good place to start. It would be best to focus on positive subconscious ideas to counter the negative ideas that the Repubs deal in. We should start by calling attention to what's wrong with the US today (lack of jobs, loss of civil liberties, etc.) and relentlessly pound home the message that we'll fix those things. Stick phrases like "a secure economy," "freedom" and "responsibility in government" into commercials and candidates' speeches and all other party materials, repeating them over and over until they become embedded in the public consciousness.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
130. Ignorant yes, dumb no
I wrote a post on this topic also.
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