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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:49 PM
Original message
Deliberate childlessness & moral rebellion
4 Snippets from the article:

Another woman in the Atlanta group explained, "You focus those motherly feelings elsewhere. For us, our dogs get all that love." That worldview is sick, but more and more common.

----

Christians must recognize that this rebellion against parenthood represents nothing less than an absolute revolt against God's design.....Couples are not given the option of chosen childlessness in the biblical revelation....The church should insist that the biblical formula calls for adulthood to mean marriage and marriage to mean children. This reminds us of our responsibility to raise boys to be husbands and fathers and girls to be wives and mothers.

------
The church must help this society regain its sanity on the gift of children. Willful barrenness and chosen childlessness must be named as moral rebellion.


http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=21298

Now the question to me become:
1. In a church restrictive sense, is this an accepted view (IE - if you are a member of a church and follow the bible, does this ring true - not talking about the rest of society, just within the realm of church in this question).

2. Being that christians are a majority (and yes, I am one myself) why are more of our leaders not focusing on the church and it's members and how they are to act morally (ie interpretation, et al) within respect to their faith and seem to be (to me) focusing more on society in general? I don't care what people do - from gay marriage to abortio n it is not my business, my relationship is one I entered into freely with God and accepted limitations on myself - I don't need laws telling me what to do. We are to be in the world not of it, so the world is seperate with sepearate laws. WHY do our leaders tolerate laws based on our faith alone becoming laws of the land? WE accepted God's laws freely, we should afford others that same right.

3. Fellow christians - let us take such things up in our churches to our leaders. What the rest of the world does is not our business - think Amish, they are strict but do not try to make laws for the rest of us, why do so many mainstream churches try to???
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is this article from 1956?
What strange, sad little people they are.
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Modem Butterfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. DFACS doesn't visit you if you feed your dog on the floor
Also, you don't have to worry about your dog coming home in the back of a police car at 3 in the morning, bugging you to borrow the car, or coming home to sleep on the couch after you've spent tens of thousands of dollars on college.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Off topic but since I can't deal with the topic emotionally right now
I thought I'd offer this instead:

Notice to people who visit my home

1. The dog lives here. You don't.

2. If you don't want dog hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.

3. Yes, she/he has some disgusting habits. So do I and so do you. What's your point?

4. OF COURSE she/he smells like a dog.

5. It's her/his nature to try to sniff your crotch. Please feel free to sniff hers/his.

6. I like her/him a lot better than I like most people.

7. To you she/he is a dog. To me she/he is an adopted daughter/son who is short, hairy, walks on all fours and doesn't speak clearly. I have no problem with any of these things.

8. Dogs are better than kids. They eat less, don't ask for money all the time, are easier to train, usually come when called, never drive your car, don't hang out with drug-using friends, don't smoke or drink, don't worry about whether they have the latest fashions, don't wear your clothes, don't need a gazillion dollars for college, and if they get pregnant you can sell the pups.

9. The same applies for the cats, except they will ignore you... until you're asleep.

Disclaimer: sent to me by my sister who has three kids. This is pro-dog, not anti-kid. Ok?
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Hee. GREAT post. Can I steal that notice?
I don't currently have a dog or any other pets, so I might have to mold it to make my guests aware of the rules of Iris' domecile...it IS anti-kid...but otherwise, it's perfect.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Go for it.
I have always subscribed to the "the more I know people, the more I like my dog" maxim myself. :)
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's all thinly veiled racism and sexism...
Not enough white babies being born and too many uppity women not barefoot and pregnant. :eyes:
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. Not even that thinly veiled, is it?
:hi:
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. I wish to remain childless
accoridng to these people, I am subverting God's will to populate this earth. BTW, are there enough people already?!!

So I guess I am doomed to hell because I have chosen not rear any little Repulsivican Jesus soldiers...

Dee
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
32. If we refuse to produce soldiers for the bush crime family war
that is OUR choice.

If we have furkids -- that is our CHOICE.

We did get a whole lot of pressure from the religious ding-a-lings in my family for our choice.

I don't criticize anyone who does have a child -- they are braver than I am to have children in this political climate -- and with the bleak global warming future.

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. AKA "6.2 Billion Miracles Are Enough"
One of my favorite bumperstickers. :hi:
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wow, that's pretty fucking sick
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 12:59 PM by Rabrrrrrr
Fucked in the head, false reading of the Bible, entirely.

Does this asshole not realize that Jesus, Paul, Stephen, Peter, and a whole host of other early Christians and Apostles didn't marry and didn't have kids?

Fuck all bullshit jesus on a pogo stick rotten.

"Adulthood means marriage" and "marriage means children" - fuck you, asswipe clown.


Just another not-so-subtle swipe at gays and lesbians, those who chose not to marry (whether to live together, or remain single) and those who refuse to continue to pollute the world with more human beings. Seems also a total indictment against Catholics, sicne nuns and priests are celibate.

It also fails to recognize the spiritual gift of celibacy, even for non-priests and nuns.

Mostly, it's a "America Uber Alles We're Agonna Breed Until We Win" jingoistic rah rah flag-waving puke.
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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Tell it!!!
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. When I was a fundie,
I found this to be very definitely true. If you were childless - particularly if there was nothing "wrong" with you - you just didn't fit in. There's nothing for married couples to talk about except for their children, and when you don't have any - well, one-sided conversations get old really quick.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
40. You've just described baby showers in my family
Since I'm usually the one woman present without kids or the desire to procreate, baby showers were an agony of boredom.

There were only the following topics allowed.

Babies in general.

Who's pregnant.

The cutesie-poo thing that a specific baby did or baby by-products.

All attempts to discuss other things were gently shot down and the topic changed. I can think of few worse ways to blow an afternoon, and now I usually send my congratulations and regrets.
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. I applaud people who remain childless...
because that probably means that they shouldn't be parents anyway. More people should choose to be childless, because they aren't parenting their children, and what good is that?
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I think a lot of people who decide to reamin childless have made
a responsible decision, unlike people who "accidentally" get pregnant, or think a chid will save a marriage.

I think there are more people who have children and shouldn't be parents.
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doodadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. Here, here!
I totally agree. I've seen alot more people out there that should not be allowed to procreate because they are terminally stupid.

We made the decision early on in our marriage that we were not good parent material--bad health genetics, and not much patience for small humans.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Thanks! I applaud me and my happily CHILD-FREE life as well.
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 01:13 PM by BlueIris
While I think your "that probably means that they shouldn't be parents anyway" comment is judgmental, crude, and involves gross generalization and irrational assumption--your impulse is great. I wish more people would applaud those of us who stay child-free to honor our own lives, pursuits and ambitions, considering how many resources we free up for others to waste with their offspring.
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getmeouttahere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Thanks, I guess
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. So They Finally Admit That They Are Advocating Forced Parenthood!
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 01:03 PM by AndyTiedye
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MostlyLurks Donating Member (738 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is exactly where the "gay marriage" rhetoric has headed.
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 01:12 PM by MostlyLurks
Ever since the "gay marriage" issue started getting national attention, I could see exactly the direction it was taking: gay people can't have kids, ergo they are not a "family" and "marriage" is irrelevant for them.

It doesn't take much cynicism and creativity to see how that logic can be applied to those who are childless by choice (such as me and my wife). I really, honestly believe that, should the theocracy come to pass, marriage will be considered for the purposes of childbearing only and it'll be dispensed only to those couples who agree to have kids (with penalty for those who renege). Sounds crazy to anyone I mention it to, but now you can see that some of the Christaholics are starting to feel emboldened and speaking that which had only been implied before.

Their disdain of childless marriages shows that they view marriage only as a tool for the sanctification of sex, not as symbolic of love or commitment. These people do not in any way value love and commitment - that's the whole reason their version of Christianity is so skewed.

Frankly, I don't see how they'll be able to theocratically differentiate between barren couples and childless-by-choice couples and it would surprise me little if they advocated for pre-marital fertility testing, denying marriage to those who could not conceive (if marriage is ONLY about procreation, what does it matter if the lack of progeny is by choice or nature?).

Mostly

On Edit: Adding the following:

Notice also that the article happens to mention people who are childless because of what seem to be childish motivations, ignoring people like myself who remain childless because alcoholism runs in my family, I have a horrible temper and come from a mildly abusive background. I'm not childless because I'm selfish - I'm childless because I'm afraid I'd fuck the kid up beyond repair.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Happily childfree
>The church must help this society regain its sanity on the gift of children. Willful barrenness and chosen childlessness must be named as moral rebellion.<

If the shoe fits, I'm wearing it.

Our choice to marry and NOT have children is nobody's business but ours. If the church wants to legislate marriage as being the exclusive property of those who are willing to have children, they will have quite a battle on their hands.

As of the last census, there are 13 million childless (or, as I prefer, childfree) couples in the USA. I'm sure the portion of that 13 million belonging to mainstream churches will be more than happy to withdraw their personal and financial support from any body questioning our right to live as we see fit.

Julie
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pilgrimsoul Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. This isn't about "God's Law"
Edited on Thu Jul-28-05 01:10 PM by pilgrimsoul
This is about the failure of evangelicals to convert the masses to their narrow, twisted view of the world. Their numbers are not increasing - they're decreasing. And as that happens, if they can't persuade people to join them to make up that membership shortfall, their finances gradually decline as well. To keep their operation running, they must resort to producing more members from within to keep the cult going. That's why they're always after their cohorts to keep having children.

And this is why they have hitched their wagon to *co - it was a financial decision cloaked in false righteousness. Faith-based organizations are the payoff to evangelicals for supporting the neocons. They're suckling greedily on the federal teat while complaining about "their" tax dollars being used to support things they don't like -- like the arts, upholding civil rights and public schools. What about those of us who are offended at the use of our tax dollars to support bigoted religious cults? They're the worst kind of hypocritical parasites.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. finally fessing up to wanting to make women axolotl tanks
Okay, it's scifi, but relevant. This describes axolotl tanks.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Precisely
Solly <--- Dune fanatic
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. My friends tell me that I read too much science fiction, but
a lot of the things that seemed so preposterous and outlandish in some of the old science fiction (from the 50's & 60's) was pretty prophetic. There are many scientific advancements that make the news today that I read about many years ago as science fiction. Who's to say that you're that far off base? How else are they going to rescue all those little embryos that they're saving from stem cell research labs?
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #24
42. I love sci fi!
One episode of Star Trek Voyager gave me the idea:

I forget the episode or what season it was in. Ensign Wildmon was undergoing a cliche. She was giving birth during battle or some space anomaly that did strange things to the ship. Of course the birth was difficult and they had to beam the baby out of Ensign Wildmon.

Beam the kid out. Why the hell don't they do that for every mother if they had the tech to do it?

Reduce that to beaming embryos and fetuses out of women who don't want them into judgemental people who are claiming that every fertilized egg must be brought to term. Let them carry it.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wow!
that's pretty amazing that they go right out and say that all people should have to have kids. Are they going to make a law about that too? Not just take abortion away but force people to get pregnant and give birth?
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minerva50 Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. The next step is to ban artificial birth control
They don't want to talk about birth control because they don't want to scare the vast majority of us who use it at one time or another; but a lot of fundamentalists are against birth control. Many of the methods, in their view, are equivalent to abortion. Fertilized eggs are prevented from implanting, and they believe "life" begins at conception.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
37. Good Republicans realize that they are only Broodmares for the State.
Now shut up and start reproducing. And, don't enjoy it either.
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. I advocate mandatory postpartum abortion for authoritarian nuts
like the person who wrote this BP article.
It's really getting to be too much.
People can believe anything they want as long as they don't force me or anyone else to believe it. The rhetoric is disturbing. Once you identify someone as a "moral failure", how far is it to making them "less than human" and stoning them or whatever it is the "biblical law" wackos advocate.
Contemporary Christian churches seem to be harboring (dare I say it) fascists complete with scapegoats for their own failings as in "gay marriage undermines the institution of marriage".
Why can't people just do what they want as long as no harm is caused?
There is something WRONG with people who want to tell others what to do.
Period.
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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. Marriage = Children?
A woman married my seventy-five-year-old uncle at his hospital bedside the night before a serious operation during Hurricane Isabel. His adult children don't think it had anything to do with having more children.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. these people are so damn selective about bible quotes
the bible has a lot to say about usury too, but you don't see these people protesting banks. that would be funny.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. LOL
So damn true. Maybe we need to hit them up with some emails :)
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earthboundmisfit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. You sure this isn't from Santorum's new book?
Sure sounds like his dipshit mindset....
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Yeah, really.
"Santorum 4 America"? Makes my skin crawl, btw. Not sure that there's anything we can do to stop that if we don't live in his district or his putative opponents districts, but--ew.
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navvet Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-28-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. Having a child is of course a choice to made between the
couple.

In the begining I did not want to have children (I came from a quite disfunctional home as did my wife) but my wife wanted to.


I compromised and 20 years later I have a son and daughter that are a credit to society.

I am not sorry I had them, they have been a constant source of admiration and joy at how they have developed.

TO each couple there own choice.

Paul and Shanda are cool

And their mother is outstanding
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
34. I Hope My Being ChildFREE and Sterilized (Twice!) PISSES THEM OFF
I am not less anything for being nulliparous - I am childfree. And the folks mentioned in the OP can kiss the fattest part of my ass.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
35. Wow, Military Recruitment must REALLY be down.
"Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them; they will not be ashamed when they speak with their enemies in the gate"

...Translation: Quick! More grist for the mill!
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
36. I am sick of them telling others how to live.
Edited on Fri Jul-29-05 04:14 AM by TWiley
I mean, I am absolutely sick of it. Why the hell don't these morons focus on their own? The last time I checked, American Christianity was a cesspool of bloodthirsty war mongers.

They are the problem in society today. I see very little benefit coming from their actions as a whole.

They probably believe that NOBODY would have children if they did not keep sticking their noses into everyone else's sex life. Without their influence, they claim, society would disintegrate into mayhem and murder in the streets.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
38. Aye Caramba these wingnuts are massive control freaks!
Edited on Fri Jul-29-05 04:29 AM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
Marriage and parenthood are God's design. Chosen childlessness must be named as moral rebellion.



According to the Bible eating shellfish is an abomination but I don't see these whackjobs protesting outside Red Lobster. The Bible denounces wearing clothing woven of two different kinds of cloth. Yet even Lillies Apparel, which offers apparel for women who wish to to truly dress like women of virtue and principle sells poly-cotton blends. And walk into any church on any Sunday and you will see countless women wearing gold jewelry, depsite the fact that the Bible expressly forbids this in 1 Peter 3:3.

Cafeteria plan, as always.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
39. "marriage to mean children"
Faux Christians say "marriage means children". I love it when people say this. They should be told that they are advocating that all people beyond child-bearing age be forced to divorce. Stupid sh*ts.
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mikeytherat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
41. Check this out:
http://mrcranky.com/movies/otherpeopleschildren.html

mikey_the_rat
15 years of marriage, no kids, many pets, and lots of people who just don't "get us"
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Nice! Thanks for sharing! nt.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
44. Mohler is SBC -
Southern Baptist convention and hardly represents the views of the other mainline protestant denoms: Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, American Baptist.

All of these other denoms, I'm presby, support reproductive freedom and choice.

Do I sometimes think about what I missed not having kids? Sure. Do I think God punishes me or thinks me disloyal for it? No.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
45. As you point out, most Christians do not agree with this nut.
Most Christians do believe in separation of Church & State. If a Church can tell the government what to do, the government might then dictate to other Churches. You mention the Amish; they would fit anyone's definition of Fundamentalist--yet they do not try to force their beliefs on everyone else. The author of this article is Southern Baptist. That denomination made a deal with the Devil when they became politicized.

It's interesting that all the childless couples mentioned are rich yuppies. Aren't there others living simpler lives who have made the same decision?
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
47. They should let me have their daughters, then...
A whole generation of half-Liberal babies! :evilgrin:

I called it quits at one. "Little Whoopsie" has grown into a fine, clear-headed young woman, and I'm proud to know her.
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