ever notice if you speak of "fair wage" or "liveable wage" PANIC?

[PretzelWarrior]

it's like you just turned into a Mao book holding redder than red communist. Even most modern Democrats are queasy about such talk. Why is that?

When is expecting that the RICHEST ECONOMY BY FAR should provide a decent wage to all workers tantamount to preaching for socialism or central planning?

It's just another example of how conservative think tanks and policy groups have helped reframe the entire modern debate on policy and culture in the USA.

Really funny thing.....if you act like jumping on the "globalization" train is not such a good idea, everyone including some dipwad making $8 an hour cutting up cow carcasses in Garden City, Kansas looks at you like you're a Luddite or still believe in Aristotle's concept of the universe.

But many of those same people will say a fetus has more of a right to live than Iraqi civilians and will say schools should give "equal time" to creationism in science classes.

what a fucking weird world we live in now.

[evlbstrd]

1. What are you, some kinda Socialist?

I had this same argument with evldaughter's boyfriend last night. He thinks the dems would bring on Soviet Socialism. I told him that the Soviets never had a socialist government. It was news to him.

[niallmac]

33. Is socialism like when

the whole provides collective care for the individual? Is it like social security? Is it like a volunteer fire department?
Is it like the military that we used to fight, umm, socialism? Is it like the VA where the country provides care to all (soldiers). Am I mistaken? If not, then I am a cheer leader for more socialism, for taxation to correct the wicked cruel concentration of wealth in the hands of so very very few. I am for universal health care. I am for a national discussion about capitalism and how to utilize the force without becoming monsters to the poor. Socialism, it's not just for commie pinkos anymore.

[Erika]

2. The Income disparity is ballooning

The middle class, under Bush is being done away with.

[punpirate]

3. I usually start talking about the maldistribution...

... of the nation's wealth. For all those 20% of the people who think they're in the top 1%. :P

That revered Thomas Jefferson believed in progressive taxation.

That studies show that business improves when ordinary people, especially the poor, have more to spend.

That the top 1% of the population has more accumulated wealth than the bottom 90%. That such maldistribution of wealth takes money out of circulation in the economy, making the economy worse, not better.

That anyone espousing trickle-down economics has bought into a lie perpetuated by the wealthy who get much, much wealthier by such policies.

Kinda pisses people off, but they do walk away scratching their heads a bit once in a while. :)

[fasttense]

4. The really funny thing is that right before the Great Depression

the distribution of wealth had the same pattern as it does now. Corporation profits are up, wages are stagnate, the top 1% is getting richer, while the middle class is getting poorer and growing their debt, Unemployment is ignored, housing is up.....Whatever can't go on forever will eventually stop.

[wli]

6. margins, too

There are banking requirements that got relaxed recently that allow banks to act on margins. They're supposedly 20:1 or so, worse than prior to the Depression. Plus, one of the major reasons the stock market is holding up so long is 990N.

[KitchenWitch]

5. Very good points

Nominated!

[wli]

7. easy to spin

Talk about consumer confidence instead. The "liveable wage" etc. is precisely what's needed to hold up consumer spending, and thereby corporate profits. Otherwise they just have a surplus of goods they can't move.

[PretzelWarrior]

9. yeah. I just think the corporations and NGOs that enable them

like WOrld Bank, IMF, WTO, etc. are allowing companies to not give a rat's ass about this particular country and it's spending. As long as they can gain greatest marginal profit on their goods produced GLOBALLY, they really don't mind that people in this country can only afford Wal-Mart cheap shit and blogna to eat.

[bvar22]

11. Oh, didn't you hear?

With the passage of CAFTA, they plan on "opening up the markets" in Honduras to sell the surplus goods.
:sarcasm:

[recidivist]

8. The problem is, the guy making $8 an hour cutting up cows ...

... in Kansas City is competing against a guy in Brazil making $2 an hour for the same thing. In fact, the guy in Kansas City is likely to be the brother or cousin of the guy in Brazil, and he came north two years ago for better wages.

Sure the $8 guy would like higher wages, but not if his job goes abroad. (Don't look now, but that's happening bigtime.)

The European model isn't so hot either; the French and Germans have institutionalized double digit unemployment and low growth, and they're falling further behind each year.

Just to stick with the packing plant example for a moment: the U.S. is drifting toward becoming a net food importer for the first time in our history. We've outsourced oil. We've outsourced consumer electronics and big chunks of the auto and steel industries. So here's an idea: let's outsource farming and food processing. We can all be trial lawyers and sue the rest of the world for a living.

[Deja Q]

15. That speaks volumes about security in any TRUE sense of the word...

the U.S. is drifting toward becoming a net food importer for the first time in our history. We've outsourced oil. We've outsourced consumer electronics and big chunks of the auto and steel industries.

[MountainLaurel]

17. Another factoid

On the same topic: New York City only has about 2 days' supply of food at any given moment.

[Deja Q]

22. And when that runs out people will kill each other to eat.

I dunno if any civilization that even began to teach its youth that working together for the benefit of the community is a good thing would turn on their own rules either. (And it sounds rather new to me; societies to date either run on slavery or "self-reliance" as they mold it in their own image to be (why else would * applaud anybody holding 3 jobs)...)

[madeline_con]

30. Let me say a word about waste.

I don't hae a statistic, but I'd wager a large portion of that supply is thrown away every day, scraped off plates, let rot, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. And the solution to this is...?

(other than spankings for all the stupid CEOs who are selling the American worker short and destroying their own markets in the process)

[recidivist]

35. I don't have an easy solution.

I do think that we are going to turn the corner (for the better) on U.S. competitiveness in the next decade. China and India are developing large middle classes and living standards are rising. They have a long way to go and a difficult political and social transition to manage, but if they can avoid major misteps, their progress will be swift.

Straws in the wind: over 10% of the Chinese already have their own cars, and it's the fastest growing automotive market in the world. Refrigerators, washing machines, and televisions are standard, at least in the cities. One already reads stories about some manufacturing leaving China in search of lower wages elsewhere.

China and India together are a third of the world's population. If they can make it over the hump, for the first time in history, a majority of the world's people will be affluent -- not rich, certainly, but middle class by global standards. This is a good thing.

That doesn't make the transition any easier for un- and semi-skilled factory hands in the U.S., who are directly exposed to competition. In addition, thanks to automation, U.S. industrial output is growing even while manufacturing employment shrinks, but that adds even more pressure on assembly line workers. So what to do?

First, we should recognize that it's not a new problem. This is, in fact, one of the great social issues of the modern age: how do we deal with mass displacement? When my parents were young, the leading employment category in the U.S. was farm labor. Domestic help was #2. We mechanized agriculture and housewives got electric appliances, and those jobs disappeared. Now semi-skilled factory labor is going the same way.

Education is a big part of the solution. You and I have been on enough education threads that I'll skip lightly by here, except to note that we need to be doing better. I know you agree, though we differ on some of the strategies we would adopt.

Finally, I think we need to move towards much more flexible work arrangements. A great many people are sick and tired of chasing the Almighty Dollar and would opt for part-time work, temporary jobs, consulting and independent contracting arrangements that afforded a much greater degree of personal freedom, and early retirement. These things are already happening at the margins, and they would become much more common if we realigned our workplace systems (fix health care, make pensions including Social Security fully funded and portable, eliminate barriers to flextime arrangements, etc.) to accommodate them.

There is much more to add but I hear the pitter-patter of little feet. I will try to check back later.

[K8-EEE]

10. Why Do They Think People Leave Mexico In Droves??

It's in search of a living wage. There's TONS of money and resources in Mexico but they are in the hands of so few, the people simply cannot live.

They get so pissed off about illegal immigrants, why can't they see, the same thing is happening to us here -- increased cost of living/housing/energy and stagnant wages, plus the cheap labor coming in. We are headed that way ourselves. A stable country NEEDS a living wage!!

[bloom]

12. I overheard a conversation yesterday

by two high school students at a county fair.

The gist of their conversation was - they were Republicans because they were "pro-life" period. That was it.


Later I sat there wondering how many of these rural people will make a living. On the farms, maybe. I don't know. :shrug:

[bobbieinok]

16. aren't corporate farms buying up family farms and destroying small towns?

I really miss living in IA........for the first time ever just by reading the newspaper (1968-1989) I learned the importance of farming to the total US economy

and learned how the farmer's share of the cost of food is extremely meager.......the commodity dealer makes MUCH more than the producer of the economy

and learned how the prices the farmer is paid goes up, goes down....but the price in the grocery store just goes up and up

[bloom]

20. I expect it is difficult to compete

with the more corporate farms.

Also - it seems that farmers would have the same problem as everybody - if cheap food is being shipped in and they can't produce it that cheaply in this economy. Just like people making other products.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. they've been doin that for the last 15 yrs or more-

From the "Whole herd buy-out" to paying farmers not to farm-
Foreign 'interests' were buying up an awful lot of farms in the early nineties, many of them from the middle-east.

The only way for small farmers to make it here in the N.E. area is to diversify- and work your butt off.- year round. We are making a HUGE mistake (in my opinion) when we buy our food from foreign countries, because it's 'cheaper'-

But think about this- a gallon of milk cost 2.00 on average 10 yrs. ago- has it risen at the same rate as everything else? and do you think the farmer is the one seeing the 'increase'???

[PretzelWarrior]

24. that's my point. there are LOTS and LOTS of single issue Repubs

maybe there are SOME DEms who are affiliated that way because of woman's choice or affirmative action....but most Dems have crafted an understanding about what party is going to really help them and the environment and build for the sustainable future.

too many Republicans get their vote bought by promises of "helping them keep their guns", "keeping Gay marriages from happening", etc. etc.

meanwhile, those same people are voting people in whose main interest is dismantling the framework of our successful society.

[madeline_con]

31. I hear that from my mom

on a lot of issues that I mention, she always comes back to abortion, when the discussion has NOTHING to do with it. She's single issue. She never had one, never wanted or needed one, got married a virgin and had 4 kids, what does she care?

[nashville_brook]

13. unless you are talking to working people

about you can't make ends meet

w/o using the terms of art, that is.

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. Yes, they don't stay around for long, once they

suspect there are reds under the bed, but rush off to find that pair of brown trousers they keep for just such occasions.

Actually, you know, if we believe in the RC Church's Social Doctrine, which prioritises the needs and rights of Man over the needs and rights of Capital, we really need to get used to the idea that God, the Christian God, anyway, would have been an unreconstructed Luddite! It is clear from the Gospels that Jesus wouldn't have fallen for the perverse notion that there was something egregiously sacred about Capital (or the likes of technological progress at the expense of all but the monied classess, as it always seems to be).

In the UK, the past 25 years of far-right government represent a form of domestic realpolitik: a living enactment of the dictum of Wedgewood Benn, (one of their bogeymen), that the British working class is the last of the colonies. And with globalisation, with the status of least favoured nation. Somalia, maybe, or North Korea.

And what adds to the hypocrisy and irony is that it was started here by the corporatist-appeasers' puppet, Thatcher, who fancies herself as a Churchill figure, yet chose to pursue her studies, rather than contribute to the war effort and make the sacrifices that, in varying degrees, most other women, young and old, did, as well as the menfolk, to the detriment of career considerations.

I read, not so long ago, an article in the Daily Mail, (which, pre-war, acted as a cheerleader for Hitler, Mussolini and their "special
troops", the Gestapo and Blackshirts) in which one of their pet "dark-side of the moon" historians, opined that, really, the policy of appeasing Hitler was the only rational one. Realpolitick, in other words, the most cynical and inevitably short-term, pragmatism, although "on the defensive", here, rather than in "imperial conquest" mode; devoid of the sovereign and most basic Christian requirements of Faith, Hope and Charity, the so-called theological virtues.

What a good job for most of us Europeans, at least, that Churchill was able to see a bigger picture, which absolutely required Faith, Hope and Charity, in the same kind of large measures in which he sank his daily bottles of brandy. Even that he was an inveterate old war-monger! A poacher turned gamekeeper... Sure he had been a child of his class for much of his life, but he was learning as he grew older, albeit quite a bit older.

[JanMichael]

18. Hey I've always liked the Liberation Theology types.

Where are they now?

Oh and I'm one of those Atheists too:-)

[Joe Chi Minh]

21. Where are who or what, Jan? I don't follow you.

I'll get back to you tomorrow, it's late.

What, B Calm! Labour organise? What a shameful thought. Barristers, company directors, yes... but working men? Come, come now!

[B Calm]

19. My god, we can't have working people sticking together, cheap

labor would be a thing of the past!

[Bluerthanblue]

25. 'if i give a man a peice of bread they call me a saint, but if i ask

why he has no bread, they call me a communist"-

Sad, but still so true- can't remember who said this, but it is as true now, as it ever was.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. excellent quote. I'll have to file that one away.

and so true. it's as if....the megarich would RATHER have a continuing underclass who is impoverished so there are many to do the "menial tasks" of life and every so often they can give some $$ here and there to salve their conscience and maybe get a tax deduction.

does that mean NO RICH people want to do good and help? of course not, but we should be able to create a dynamic in this country where everyone who wants a job can get a decent wage...

[Joe Chi Minh]

36. It was Archbishop Oscar Romero, Bluerthanblue.

It identifies and highlights the fundamental hypocrisy of the right wing. They are quite happy "to strain at a gnat, only to swallow a camel".

A few dollars in the poor box on a Sunday and the occasional charity ball, but change the economic structures of society, to transform economic oppression into measures to provide for the very modest requirements of the general working population......?!?!?!

And as for the poorest citizens, it cannot be repeated often enough, that many saints and popes have stressed that, when we give to the poor, we are only giving back to them what rightly belongs to them. God made the world and everything that is good in it for all his children - not just for the most worldly and materialistic.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. thanks to both of you- for

your responses, and for being among those who 'see'-
it is a comfort to come here, and see the whole world has not gone insane.

even though it can sure seem that way-

[DanCa]

28. Greed pure unadulterated greed

Is there anyway we can get bushco to worry a little less about the commandments and a little more about the sermon on the mound?

[madeline_con]

29. "some dipwad making $8 an hour cutting up cow carcasses ...

in Garden City, Kansas ..."

Probably has no clue what globalization means. Hence, the look.

[Jamison]

32. I'm a commie

If wanting to give people a living wage is "communist", then I am one. I'd rather be a "communist" than a cheap and heartless "kompassionate konservative."

[NMMNG]

34. That's Commie/Socialist/Pinko/Liberal Talk!

What's all this garbage about everybody being able to make a living wage? Don't you know that some people are supposed to be so rich they could use $100 dollar bills as kindling in their fireplaces while others should be forced to live on wages that don't allow them to afford aspirin when they get a headache? It's the American way you unpatriotic hooligan! :sarcasm: