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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:38 PM
Original message
A Short History of “Conspiracy Theory”
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 10:11 PM by Octafish
About three years after the death of President John F. Kennedy, it became a matter of official CIA policy to denigrate anyone who disagreed with the Warren Commission conclusion of Oswald as the lone gunman. So, the agency ordered its "media assets" to label anyone who disagreed with the Big Lie as a "conspiracy nut." Ever hear Corporate McPravda say anything nice about Jim Garrison or Oliver Stone?

Here's background:

How the CIA Killed History

by Ace R. Hayes
(May/June 1997 issue)
From the Portland Free Press

Editor's note: Three decades ago (4 January 1967), the CIA produced adocument (#1035-960), "Countering Criticism of the Warren Report." This document was partly declassified under an FOIA, September 1976. It is the blueprint for employing "CIA media assets" to smear critics of the Warren Commission. The justification for this perversion of truth, justice and democracy was clearly stated: "Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society."


Read this CIA document 1035-960 here:

Countering Criticism of the Warren Report

The term “conspiracy nut” soon evolved into “conspiracy theorist” as code for “psychotic,” “paranoid” or “kook.” Consider how quickly that label, once pinned on a person, prevents any further consideration of the person’s rhetoric, writings or discoveries.

So people who wonder why the “government” doesn’t give two figs for finding out who killed President Kennedy, a Liberal Democrat, who worked every day of his time as President to keep the peace, make life better for ALL Americans, and make the world a better place (which is a lot more than most presidents since have done or even tried) are called “nuts.”

That's what Allen Dulles, J Edgar Hoover, and their stooges and sub-stooges in Congress and the White House worked to do. And to think so many today continue their work, spreading lies. The hell with such people.

Here’s a bit of real work by David Talbot. The editor of, Talbot’s a more accomplished journalist, writer, researcher and an all-around better source than Kos ever will be, IMFO.

The Mother of All Cover-Ups

Forty years after the Warren Report, the official verdict on the Kennedy assassination, we now know the country's high and mighty were secretly among its biggest critics

by David Talbot
This article first appeared in the September 15, 2004 issue of


There is one sanctuary where the Warren Report is still stubbornly upheld and where its manifold critics can expect their own rough treatment: in the towers of the media elite. Fresh from assaulting Oliver Stone, not only for his film but his very character (a media shark-attack in which, I must confess, I too once engaged), the national press rushed to embrace Gerald Posner's bold 1993 defense of the Warren Report, "Case Closed," making it a bestseller. ("The most convincing explanation of the assassination," historian Robert Dallek called it in the Boston Globe.) And the 40th anniversary of JFK's murder last November sparked a new cannonade of anti-conspiracy sound and fury, with ABC's Peter Jennings making yet another network news attempt to silence the report's critics. Most of the press lords and pundits in the 1960s who allowed themselves to be convinced that the Warren Report was the correct version of what happened in Dallas -- whether because they genuinely believed it or because they thought it was for the good of the country -- are now dead or retired. But after buying the official version for so long, it seems the elite media institutions have too much invested in the Warren Report to change their minds now, even if they're under new editorial leadership.

One of the great ironies of history is that while the media elite was busily trying to shore up public confidence in the Warren Report, the political elite was privately confiding among themselves that the report was a travesty, a fairy tale for mass consumption. Presidents, White House aides, intelligence officials, senators, congressmen, even foreign leaders -- they all muttered darkly among themselves that Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy, a plot that a number of them suspected had roots in the U.S. government itself. (In truth, some high media dignitaries have also quietly shared their doubts about the official version. In 1993, CBS anchorman Dan Rather, who did much along with his network to enforce the party line on Dallas, confessed to Robert Tannenbaum, the former deputy chief counsel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, "We really blew it on the Kennedy assassination.")

Thanks to tapes of White House conversations that have been released to the public in recent years, we now know that the man who appointed the Warren Commission -- President Lyndon Johnson -- did not believe its conclusions. On September 18, 1964, the last day the panel met, commission member Sen. Richard Russell phoned Johnson, his old political protege, to tell him he did not believe the single bullet theory, the key to the commission's finding that Oswald acted alone. "I don't either," Johnson told him. Johnson's theories about what really happened in Dallas shifted over the years. Soon after the assassination, Johnson was led to believe by the CIA that Kennedy might have been the victim of a Soviet conspiracy. Later his suspicions focused on Castro; during his long-running feud with Robert Kennedy, LBJ leaked a story to Washington columnist Drew Pearson suggesting the Kennedy brothers themselves were responsible JFK's death by triggering a violent reaction from the Cuban leader with their "goddamed Murder Inc." plots to kill him. In 1967, according to a report in the Washington Post, Johnson's suspicious gaze came to rest on the CIA. The newspaper quoted White House aide Marvin Watson as saying that Johnson was "now convinced" Kennedy was the victim of a plot and "that the CIA had something to do with this plot." Max Holland, who has just published a study of LBJ's views on Dallas, "The Kennedy Assassination Tapes," intriguingly concludes that Johnson remained haunted by the murder throughout his tenure in the White House. "It is virtually an article of faith among historians that the war in Vietnam was the overwhelming reason the president left office in 1969, a worn, bitter, and disillusioned man," writes Holland. "Yet the assassination-related tapes paint a more nuanced portrait, one in which Johnson's view of the assassination weighed as heavily on him as did the war."

Critics of the Warren Report's lone-assassin conclusion were often stumped by defenders of the report with the question, "If there was a conspiracy, why didn't President Kennedy's own brother -- the attorney general of the United States, Robert Kennedy -- do anything about it?" It's true that, at least until shortly before his assassination death in June 1968, Bobby Kennedy publicly supported the Warren Report. On March 25, during a presidential campaign rally at San Fernando Valley State College in California, Kennedy was dramatically confronted by a woman heckler, who called out, "We want to know who killed President Kennedy!" Kennedy responded by saying, "I stand by the Warren Commission Report." But at a later campaign appearance, days before his assassination, Bobby Kennedy said the opposite, according to his former press spokesman Frank Mankiewicz. When asked if he would reopen the investigation into his brother's death, he uttered a simple, one-word answer: "Yes." Mankiewicz recalls today, "I remember that I was stunned by the answer. It was either like he was suddenly blurting out the truth, or it was a way to shut down the questioning -- you know, 'Yes, now let's move on.'"

His public statements on the Warren Report were obviously freighted with political and emotional -- and perhaps even security -- concerns for Bobby Kennedy. But we have no doubt what his private opinion of the report was -- as his biographer Evan Thomas wrote, Kennedy "regarded the Warren Commission as a public relations exercise to reassure the public." According to a variety of reports, Kennedy immediately suspected a plot as soon as he heard his brother had been shot in Dallas. And as he made calls and inquiries in the hours and days after the assassination, he came to an ominous conclusion: JFK was the victim of a domestic political conspiracy. In a remarkable passage in "One Hell of a Gamble," a widely praised 1997 history of the Cuban missile crisis based on declassified Soviet and U.S. government documents, historians Alexksandr Fursenko and Timothy Naftali wrote that on November 29, one week after the assassination, Bobby Kennedy dispatched a close family friend named William Walton to Moscow with a remarkable message for Georgi Bolshakov, the KGB agent he had come to trust during the nerve-wracking back-channel discussions sparked by the missile crisis. According to the historians, Walton told Bolshakov that Bobby and Jacqueline Kennedy believed "there was a large political conspiracy behind Oswald's rifle" and "that Dallas was the ideal location for such a crime." The Kennedys also sought to reassure the Soviets that despite Oswald's apparent connections to the communist world, they believed President Kennedy had been killed by American enemies. This is a stunning account -- with the fallen president's brother and widow communicating their chilling suspicions to the preeminent world rival of the U.S. -- and it has not received nearly the public attention it deserves.


People who doubt “conspiracy theories” when they are disagreeing with the “official story” are not nuts. They are not even “theorists.” They are Truth Seekers.

Inquisitive. Intelligent. Kind. Brave. Peaceful. Democrats.

EDIT: a word or two.

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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Then there should be some evidence of truth
The simplest explantaion is most likely the truth. In the JFK assasination one has to jumpo through many hoops in order to believe the officialo story. The magic bullet alone rests on an ability to ignore reality to a point that would make Tom Cruise giggle.

There is a difference between seeking truth and clinging to every hairbrained notion that makes your parent's generation look bad.

There probably is NOT a conspiracy to cover up UFOs.

There probably IS a conspricay by incredibly wealthy people to control world events to make themselves richer.

There probably was NOT a conspricy to let Dale Earnhart Jr win auto races or Cal Ripken to hit Home Runs.

There DEFINITELY was a conspircy to defraud the US Government in Watergat.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Sounds Like History Repeating
Gee. “(T)o impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society.” Sounds eerily like the present day, when any criticism of Bush and his illegal Iraq war was shouted down as treason.

And the crazy moron Bush swore up and down he never heard about Osama bin Whatever. Then, lo and behold, it turns out the smirking turd was told all about Osama many times, and from many sources, way before September 11.

Funny. If it weren't for DU -- check that -- DUers who stood up to Big Media and said "Bush is a liar," even more people today might still believe him. After all, Big Media is still echoing whatever it is Rove wants. When's Kenny Boy Lay going on trial? Remember the Downing Street Memos and Minutes? Whatever happened to Sibel Edmonds? Osama who?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. no UFO conspiracy???? oh noooooooo
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. That deserves its own thread.

It's perfectly possible to say things exist that we don't understand. Things made by somebody or something other than human. The evidence exists: From eyewitness testimony to radar-visual-photographic cases, to abductions in broad daylight, to who knows what we haven't heard about. Things exist we get information from people about, but can't be explained in terms we understand.

Jacques Vallee dreams it must be something far more wonderful than mere space travelers. A brilliant mind, Vallee believes the entitities able to manipulate space and time can also manipulate dimensions, or layers or timestreams or whatever between parts of the multiverse. What troubles me: Vallee says it's possible we get the visitors we deserve.

That's why some CT ventures off into the wild unknown, saying things like Sneering Dick Cheney and Smirking Idiot Bush are wearing some kind of covering over their Reptilianoid skin. Seeing how their actions affect the world, the CT's might be right. And that's not necessarily a good or bad thing.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #64
107. yep

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #107
129. Snarp garble raaaararf.*

Hey, SwampRat!

You continue to capture the essence of these turds and slugs.

Not that there are any guarantees of authenticity, but people who like purdy pitchers may enjoy:

Ask me about radar-visual cases...Oooh, man. I mean, entity.
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Henny Penny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #64
124. It is also quite likely that people are deliberately making up
and spreading clearly implausible theories in order to discredit critics.

eg some cts believe the US admin was responsible for 9-11 .... but of course some of them believe that cheney is a lizard from planet x!

This means when a theory gains traction and the press are forced to refer to it, they can put it in a context that distracts people. Nine times out of ten, the reader will latch on to the lizard theory and totally ignore the evidence supporting the 9-11 theory.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #124
130. The Gov has manipulated the UFO story since Dulles.
Here's a bit of clear-headedness from someone who understand Dr. Jacques Vallee, for those interested in a fascinating subject:

Quantum UFOs

It has been said that the relativity theory has lost the subject of the verb to undulate. If so, quantum mechanics…has recovered it, and in a very unexpected form indeed. What is undulating through space-time is no longer the lost ether. It is the amplitude of a set of associated probabilities. Loosely speaking, it is information.“ –O. Costa De Beauregard

Given that the vast majority of UFO books just recycle pop culture agitprop in the hopes of making a fast buck, there are few works of the genre that qualify as required reading for the discerning occultist. Those that do, however, are mainly by John Keel or Jacques Vallee. Messengers of Deception, by the latter, certainly falls in the “must-read” category, even for the UFO nonbeliever. In fact, if I had to recommend one book about UFOs that everyone should read, this might be the one.

First published in 1979, it would have been very easy, and no doubt highly lucrative, for Dr. Vallee to have jumped on the Close Encounters of the Third Kind bandwagon (in Spielberg’s film, Francois Truffaut’s character, Lacombe, was loosely based on Vallee) and produced a “Who Are The Beautiful Space Brothers From The Skies?” type book. There were certainly no shortage of those at the time (and I devoured a great many of them), just as there were many “Evil Aliens Want To Kidnap And Fuck Us” books in the ’90’s (in fact, most of the UFO mythos of the ’90’s, from The X-Files to Secret Cipher of the UFOnauts, owes much to Messengers of Deception). Dr. Vallee himself notes in Messengers‘ introduction that there was a great deal of pressure on him to produce such a touchy-feely CE3K-style work. Instead, he provided a thoughtful, well-researched book whose incredibly prescient thesis has, so far as I know, yet to be improved upon.

“Messengers of Deception proposes a new theory of UFOs that can be stated in three paragraphs:

1. Unidentified Flying Objects operate according to an understanding of our universe that transcends ordinary space-time physics. If we are living in an “Associative Universe,” as I am suggesting, then we must expect such paranormal effects, possibly triggered by and accessible to human consciousness<….>

2. The main effect of UFOs on their witnesses is a conditioning process<….>

3. The social process caused by the belief in the phenomenon takes the form of new sects, movements, and “contact” cults<….>
–Preface to the Bantam Edition, 1980, p. viii”

Maybe since in 1979 few really understood what the hell Dr. Vallee was talking about when he said “Associative Universe", it is the second and third aspects of Vallee’s theory that have been the legacy of this book, especially since Messengers prominently and prophetically features such characters as Jim Hurtak, Marshall Applewhite,and Claude Vorilhon. But it is Vallee’s theory of the “Associative Universe” which I think deserves further consideration.


Not that there's anything wrong with little green men, but things may be more wonderful or complicated than that. OTOH, Vallee also says we may get the visitors we deserve.

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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Your posts are always smart and provocative.
Thanks for continuing to educate. It is appreciated.
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Thanks too. "Truth Seekers"...I prefer that.
And I always learn much from your blogs.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
132. Me too ! I join you in being a TRUTH SEEKER
Some people see things and ask "WHY?"

For example, "Did Oswald fire a bullet at Kennedy?"
THEY say that he did.
Am I to believe that he acted alone? NO!
I have the right to think in many different directions as I gain more information.

As a teacher, I cherished the students that kept on inquiring, "But I was thinking" or " Could it be that..," those were usually the ones that were the brightest.

Nothing was more boring than the students that believed that the Indians were bad people and the police were always right just because the government furnished book told them so.

Remember when THEY said that Anita Hill was making stuff up on Clarence Thomas?

THEY are still saying that GW is this horrible person and his Dad is the so called " Nice Guy." It is crystal clear to me that Poppy is the head of this Mafia and GW is a string puppet. I will happily put on my :tinfoilhat: for that one.

I don't think it is right for us to put down the tin hatters. Perhaps there should be a special tin hat forum for those that think out of the box.

The out of the box thinkers may not have all the pieces of the puzzle but that's OK, they deserve the right to THINK and SPEAK.


PS/ Maybe there should be a TRUTH SEEKER smilie. The tin hat seems to be the symbol for "crazy." :)

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Thanks, tasteblind! And thank President Gore for the Internet.
This thing makes it possible to get the word out to people who need to know -- what we want, when we want and to whom we want. And, it's interactive, so we can get feedback.

Way back in 1991, I worked for a newspaper. On thhis day, my assignment was to camp outside a local library and quiz people coming out about the on-going coup attempt by the hard-line commies against Gorbachev's perestroika/glasnost government. So, out comes a nice matronly lady and I asked her thoughts.

I hit the jackpot. She said she had worked at the U.S. embassy in Moscow in the 1950s. She indicated that she believed the coup would fail. There were too many portable phones, fax machines and even e-mail for the truth to be kept hidden.

I bet she'd feel the same way about the United States today, if asked. To her, and to you and the good folk on DU, tasteblind, the Truth conquers all.

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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Informative post... thanks!! n/t
Edited on Tue Jul-12-05 11:03 PM by ailsagirl
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Thanks, ailsagirl! And you're welcome!
There's so much we don't know -- not just about the universe or existence or life or tax law -- but just when it comes to the workings of our government. The United States Constitution makes clear how the rights of the governed are superior to the government. And that's why in the First Amendment, the Founders made clear that:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And that's why in 1988 George Herbert Walker Bush called Michael Dukakis "a card-carrying member of the ACLU."

Gee. All the American Civil Liberties Union does is protect the Constitution of the United States, specifically the Bill of Rights.

Wake up America! It's not Osama. It's the BFEE that hates your freedom.

Otherwise, they wouldn't steal elections and pass laws that take away those rights. They don't want you to know. And they don't want to lose their positions from where they can steal till there's nothing left in the Treasury. Hey! Wait a minute...
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Reminds me
of Michael Douglas in "The American President."

"Of COURSE I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU. They fight to protect our freedom. Question is, why aren't YOU?"

or something like that.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
40. Wish more Democrats said that...
...when getting smeared by the right.
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Completely right again Octafish
There is nothing like the Kennedy assassination to set one on a course to find the truth. What is really sick is to think that a lot of the skunks who had something to do with it are still running the country today.
I met an older gentleman the other day who thought Castro was the guilty party. :eyes:

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. The powers-that-be used Dallas to build support for Cuba invasion...
It couldn't be farther from the truth, but right-wingers have always said Kennedy was a softie, a coward, an appeaser, one who'd sell out to the commies. Odd way to thank the man responsible for keeping the peace during most perilous times.

During the Bay of Pigs invasion, the CIA swore up and down the invading band of exiles loyal to the corrupt Batista regime or whatever Swiss bank account paid them would be sufficient to overthrow Castro. The people would welcome the invaders with open arms and join in. (Sounds familiar.) At the time, the CIA said the invasion would not need US military intervention to succeed. They lied. When the invasion floundered (the Soviets and Cubans had been pre-warned as to the time and place), the CIA asked JFK for authorization to send in the Navy and Air Force. JFK said, "No. We can't risk starting World War III."

Then, During the Cuban Missile Crisis of October, 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, almost the entire cabinet, and most of Congress that had been briefed wanted JFK to launch a nuclear strike against the Soviet Union, even if it meant global nuclear war. Thanks to Adlai Stevenson and Bobby Kennedy, the President ordered the government agencies to work out an alternative. That was the embargo. For his trouble keeping the world from ending, JFK was branded "soft" on communism and worse.

One of the things that has most troubled me about the JFK assassination is that there is so much evidence indicating government duplicity in the killing. Some of the most salient of these indications are the concerted efforts on the part of CIA officials in Mexico City and Washington to paint Oswald as being a communist sympathizer who wanted to shoot the President and then flee to Cuba.

(This is in addition to the trail created before the assassination: One man purchased trucks in Oswald's name. Another took a car dealer on a harrowing "test drive" and said he'd be "coming into money" soon.)

A man impersonating Oswald appeared at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City. The CIA, for decades, stated the man was Oswald only to later recant and state they don't know who the man was. They even pretended tape-recordings of a voice, purported to Oswald's, demanding a visa to Cuba was authentic. It all was to make it appear Oswald was a commie stooge, itching to flee to Cuba.

To me, the above shows SOMEONE with a lot of government pull went to a lot of trouble to point the finger at Castro. I think these high-ups are the ones who today want to bring on their "New World Order" with a crazy monkey of a dictator sits on top of the pyramid.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Operation Northwoods -- Operation Mongoose -- JFK Assasination
I'm just an ignorant grunt in the working world trying to make sense of it all. As the saying goes, I KNOW N O T H I N G compared to those whose business it is to know E V E R Y T H I N G, if you know what I mean.

I think we could tack on the list started in the subject line several other important dots on the map. Watergate, for example. There are side tendrils preceding that in the assassinations of RFK, and MLK. There was a curve of strangeness in the Sixties -- something got out of a box that wasn't supposed to have. Timothy Leary comes to Mind, for one. But I was thinking more along the lines of, oh, say, The Simbionese Liberation Army. The shaping of public perception has always been of interest to those who seek to govern but it took a little while for them to get their footing with electronic media. I believe my moment of awakening came some 20 or so years ago while watching a TV news report showing a small, hand made bomb go off in Beirut. It was a little shock but it was a shock none the less, I could feel the tiny shiver of fear run through me even though my mind knew this was a portrayal of something far, far away. No direct danger to me. And then it occurred to me: That little shock was felt by millions of people.

How much more devastating the big shock are. I've been watching the progression for, gee, I don't know how long but most of my life. 9/11 shocked me but it did not surprise me. And yes, it scares me a little to think about that.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
82. About that picture.The conversation between LBJ and J. Edna Hoover on 23rd
J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ had the following conversation at 10:00 A.M. on November 23rd.

J. Edgar Hoover: I just wanted to let you know of a development which I think is very important in connection with this case - this man in Dallas (Lee Harvey Oswald). We, of course, charged him with the murder of the President. The evidence that they have at the present time is not very, very strong. We have just discovered the place where the gun was purchased and the shipment of the gun from Chicago to Dallas, to a post office box in Dallas, to a man - no, to a woman by the name of "A. Hidell."... We had it flown up last night, and our laboratory here is making an examination of it.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Yes, I told the Secret Service to see that that got taken care of.

J. Edgar Hoover: That's right. We have the gun and we have the bullet. There was only one full bullet that was found. That was on the stretcher that the President was on. It apparently had fallen out when they massaged his heart, and we have that one. We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification. As soon as we finish the testing of the gun for fingerprints ... we will then be able to test the one bullet we have with the gun. But the important thing is that this gun was bought in Chicago on a money order. Cost twenty-one dollars, and it seems almost impossible to think that for twenty-one dollars you could kill the President of the United States.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Now, who is A. Hidell?

J. Edgar Hoover: A. Hidell is an alias that this man has used on other occasions, and according to the information we have from the house in which he was living - his mother - he kept a rifle like this wrapped up in a blanket which he kept in the house. On the morning that this incident occurred down there - yesterday - the man who drove him to the building where they work, the building from where the shots came, said that he had a package wrapped up in paper... But the important thing at the time is that the location of the purchase of the gun by a money order apparently to the Klein Gun Company in Chicago - we were able to establish that last night.

Lyndon B. Johnson: Have you established any more about the visit to the Soviet embassy in Mexico in September?

J. Edgar Hoover: No, that's one angle that's very confusing, for this reason - we have up here the tape and the photograph of the man who was at the Soviet embassy, using Oswald's name. That picture and the tape do not correspond to this man's voice, nor to his appearance. In other words, it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet embassy down there. We do have a copy of a letter which was written by Oswald to the Soviet embassy here in Washington, inquiring as well as complaining about the harassment of his wife and the questioning of his wife by the FBI. Now, of course, that letter information - we process all mail that goes to the Soviet embassy. It's a very secret operation. No mail is delivered to the embassy without being examined and opened by us, so that we know what they receive... The case, as it stands now, isn't strong enough to be able to get a conviction... Now if we can identify this man who was at the... Soviet embassy in Mexico City... This man Oswald has still denied everything. He doesn't know anything about anything, but the gun thing, of course, is a definite trend.

Lyndon B. Johnson: It definitely established that he - the same gun killed the policeman?

J. Edgar Hoover: That is an entirely different gun. We also have that gun...

Lyndon B. Johnson: You think he might have two ?

J. Edgar Hoover: Yes, yes, he had two guns... The one that killed the President was found on the sixth floor in the building from which it had been fired. I think that the bullets were fired from the fifth floor, and the three shells that were found were found on the fifth floor. But he apparently went upstairs to have fired the gun and throw the gun away and then went out. He went down to this theater. There at the theater was where he had the gun battle with the police officer.

Lyndon B. Johnson: I wonder if you will get me a little synopsis and let me have what developments come your way during the day and try to get to me before we close up for the day. (17)

So J. Edgar couldn't make the evidence stick the next morning. Guess they need to get rid of Oswald, because that part of the cover up wasn't very good.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
122. They needed to get rid of Oswald.
Johnson. Hoover. The Secret Service. Big Texas Oil. The Mafia. The Cubans. Dulles and The Texans. The BFEE.

They also needed to get rid of that tape, which is the only one erased from the national archive. The only reason we know of that conversation between the Hoove and WarBoy is someone had transcribed it. Go Scribes!

Go, DrDebug! You are the one who can write! I saw that stuff on Rigorous Intuition and it taught me more than I thought I could possibly know regarding Dallas and its aftermath.

Thanks for giving a damn!
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #122
126. About the LBJ story
Johnson. Hoover. The Secret Service. Big Texas Oil. The Mafia. The Cubans. Dulles and The Texans. The BFEE.

And they all seized power on November 22nd. They were already very powerful, but JFK wanted to try to control those groups. They all had their own reasons for getting rid off JFK and they found another and were responsible for the JFK assassination to further consolidate their powers. They have only grown in importance since then and nowadays they have installed their own puppet regime.

Thanks for the kind words. You were the person who started it by finding this cartoon which made a wonderful summary. Also the story can be extended a lot more thanks to this post and some other information which people have told me about since last week

Let's quickly examine the reasons for LBJ to what he did. The story has been compiled by me. The sources are noted below the story in case anybody wants to get a more detailed picture.

Lyndon B. Johnson and the Bobby Baker scandal
Bobby Baker was Johnson's secretary and political adviser. In the early 1950s Baker had also been involved in helping that Intercontinental Hotels Corporation establishing casinos in the Dominican Republic. He continued to do business with mobsters Ed Levison, Sam Giancana and Ben Siegelbaum (an associate of Jimmy Hoffa (1) ) in the Dominican Republic. Baker argued that Dominican Republic could be a Mafia replacement for Cuba. However, these plans came to an end when the military dictator, Rafael Trujillo (2a / 2b), was murdered on the orders of the CIA.

Bobby Baker was investigated by Attorney General Robert Kennedy. He discovered Baker had links to Clint Murchison and several Mafia bosses. Evidence also emerged that Lyndon B. Johnson was also involved in political corruption. This included the award of a $7 billion contract for a fighter plane, the TFX, to General Dynamics, a company based in Texas. On 7th October, 1963, Baker was forced to leave his job. Soon afterwards, Fred Korth, the US Navy Secretary, was also forced to resign because of the TFX contract. (3)

According to Joachim Joesten: (4)

The Baker scandal then is truly the hidden key to the assassination, or more exact, the timing of the Baker affair crystallized the more or less vague plans to eliminate Kennedy which had already been in existence… The threat of complete exposure which faced Johnson in the Baker scandal provided that final impulse he was forced to give the go-ahead signal to the plotters who had long been waiting for the right opportunity. (5)

Lyndon B. Johnson and the Billie Sol Estes scandal
Billie Sol Estes started up a company providing irrigation pumps that used cheap natural gas. Estes's business encountered problems when the Department of Agriculture began to control the production of cotton. In 1958 Estes made contact with Lyndon B. Johnson. Over the next couple of years Estes ran a vast scam getting federal agricultural subsidies. According to Estes he obtained $21 million a year for "growing" and "storing" non-existent crops of cotton. (6)

On June 3, 1961, Estes' contact at the Department of Agriculture, Henry Marshall, was found dead as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning from a hose attached to the exhaust pipe of his car. The death was ruled a suicide, but rumours circulated that Marshall had been killed because he was aware of Estes' scam. On April 4, 1962 Estes' accountant, George Krutilek, was also found dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. Krutilek had been questioned by the FBI about Estes the day before. (7)

On 4th April, 1962, George Krutilek, Estes chief accountant, was found dead. Despite a severe bruise on Krutilek's head, the coroner decided that he had also committed suicide. (6)

On April 5, 1962, Estes and several business associates were indicted by a federal grand jury on 57 counts of fraud. Two of them, Harold Orr and Coleman Wade, died before the case came to trial in October. Estes was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to eight years in prison. He was eventually found guilty of additional federal charges and sentenced to fifteen years in prison. As a result of the scandal, president John F. Kennedy began considering dropping Johnson as his running mate in the 1964 election. (7)

On 24th June, 1962, Senator John McClellan of Arkansas announced that his Permanent Investigations Committee would be looking into the activities of Estes. On 27th July one witness testified that Lyndon B. Johnson was getting a rake-off from the federal agricultural subsidies that Estes had been obtaining. Estes trial began in October 1962. John Cofer, who was also Lyndon Johnson's lawyer, refused to put Estes on the witness stand. Estes was found guilty of fraud and sentenced to eight years in prison. Federal proceedings against Estes began in March 1963. He was eventually charged with fraud regarding mortgages of more that $24 million. Estes was found guilty and sentenced to fifteen years in prison. (6)

Bodycount: 4 dead

Lyndon B. Johnson Vice Presidential ticket for 1964

Vice President Lyndon Johnson was supported both by Texas oil interest and Carlos Marcello. In addition, he had been involved in criminal enterprises with the likes of Billie Sol Estes and Bobby Baker - scandals which the Kennedys (JFK, RFK) were using to force him off the 1964 presidential ticket.

W. Penn Jones (8) claimed that in 1963 Kennedy decided that Johnson was to be replaced by George Smathers (9)

Bobby Baker was about the first person in Washington, DC to know that Lyndon Johnson was to be dumped as the Vice-Presidential candidate in 1964. Baker knew that President Kennedy had offered the spot on the ticket to Senator George Smathers of Florida... Baker knew because his secretary. Miss Nancy Carole Tyler, roomed with one of George Smathers' secretaries. Miss Mary Jo Kopechne had been another of Smathers' secretaries. Now both Miss Tyler and Miss Kopechne have died strangely. (10) (11)

November 21, 1963

The conspirators are having a meeting

On November 21, 1963, Lyndon B. Johnson attended a party at the Dallas home of oil baron Clint Murchison (Texas Oil). Also in attendance were J. Edgar Hoover (FBI), Richard Nixon (Future President), Haroldson L. Hunt (Texas Oil), Clyde Tolson (FBI), John J. McCloy (CIA).

Johnson's mistress Madeleine Brown was there as well. Years later, she told how all the men went into a conference room to talk privately. Then when they came out...

Squeezing my hand so hard, it felt crushed from the pressure, he spoke with a grating whisper, a quiet growl, into my ear, not a love message, but one I'll always remember: "After tomorrow those goddamn Kennedys will never embarrass me again - that's no threat - that's a promise." (12)

November 22nd, 1963

The Wink

Lyndon Johnson makes a wink to Congressman Albert Thomas who is winking back. (13) The coup d'etat of the US Government was a fact now. Lyndon Johnson will be 36th President of the United States.

Aftermath - Vietnam War
Shortly after taking over the presidency, Lyndon Johnson began escalating the war in Vietnam.

On 26 November 1963, McGeorge Bundy rewrote National Security Memorandum 273. Four days after the assassination Lyndon Johnson passed a memorandum which "authorized planning for specific covert operations, graduated in intensity, against the DRV (North Vietnam)" (14). The withdrawal of 1,000 troops from Vietnam as proposed in NSAM 263 were reversed and the escalation of the War in Vietnam started.

On January 1964, NSAM 288 was signed and reaffirms the commitment and explains in more definitive terms that the United States must become personally involved in order to keep South Vietnam from falling to communism. (15)

On August 5, 1964, American newspapers reported that North Vietnamese torpedo boats had fired on the ''USS Maddox'' in the Gulf of Tonkin. Captain John J. Herrick, the task force commander in the Gulf, cabled Washington DC, to say that no such attacked had occurred - but to no avail...

Knowing well that the reports were false, Johnson immediately ordered airstrikes on North Vietnam in retaliation for an attack that never occurred...

In 1964, Lyndon Johnson won the Presidency in his own right with 61 percent of the vote and the widest popular margin in American history - more than 15,000,000 votes.

On April 7, 1965 Lyndon Johnson ordered Operation Rolling Thunder (16). An operation which dropped over 1,000,000 bombs on Vietnam more than ever before in the history of mankind. The US military also started using napalm.

“Napalm is the most terrible pain you can imagine,” said Kim Phuc, known from a famous Vietnam War photograph. “Water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. Napalm generates temperatures of 800 to 1,200 degrees Celsius.” (17)

Lyndon Johnson was partially responsible for the death of 1 US President, approx. 60,000 US citizens (18) and approx. 1,700,000 Vietnamese citizens. (19)

Lyndon Johnson was never held reponsible for any of his scandals, assassination of a US President, crimes against humanity and starting an illegal war under false pretences (21) and died at his ranch of a heart attack in Texas on January 22nd, 1973. Texas declared August 27 is Lyndon Baines Johnson Day, a legal state holiday to honor Lyndon Johnson (20)

And last but not least:

The number of people involved was extensive and one of the greatest mysteries. In the planning and execution we are probably talking about 30-40 people and many more in the cover-up operation. Even though most only knew a part, there are probably close to 20 people who knew most of the grand plan. Most of them are no longer alive. George H.W. Bush is still alive and mostlikely one of those people.

Long and more detailed version at:

Notes and sources:
(1) James Riddle "Jimmy" Hoffa (14 February 1913 - 30 July, 1975?) was a noted American labor leader who is also well-known in popular culture for the mysterious circumstances surrounding his still-unexplained disappearance and presumed death.
Further reading: www.spartacus.schoolnet.c...Ahoffa.htm
(2a) President Dwight Eisenhower began to change his opinion of Trujillo after the overthrow of Fulgencio Batista by Fidel Castro in January, 1959. Eisenhower observed that: "It's certain that American public opinion won't condemn Castro until we have moved against Trujillo."

Rafael Trujillo was assassinated on 30th May 1961 when his car was machine-gunned by a group of men on a quiet road outside the capital. Before the CIA could get their people in power, Rafael Trujillo Jr. rushed home from France and installed himself as the country's new ruler.

Further reading:
(4) Joachim Joesten, The Dark Side of Lyndon Baines Johnson (1968 )
(10) W. Penn Jones Jr, Texas Midlothian Mirror (31st July, 1969)
(18) According to some recent source which I haven't verified yet, the true number is 80,000. The Vietnamese count is a conservative estimate as well
(21) See also: George W. Bush
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Brilliant as usual!
People who doubt “conspiracy theories” when they are disagreeing with the “official story” are not nuts. They are not even “theorists.” They are Truth Seekers.

:tinfoilhat: always on these days
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. How you been Clay Z?
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. Just biting my nails 'till impeachment!
Hi Lincoln

Busy in the studio whilst listening to Air America.

Now that the White House Press corps has been replaced by real journalists it is getting downright exiting, huh?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. Thanks, ClayZ! Meant to say David Talbot is Editor of Salon.
I need an editor. And a spell checker. And a fact checker.

Then again, that's why there's DU and DUers.

How's my hat? Is it on right?

Most importantly: I really appreciate the kind words, ClayZ! United We Stand.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Very well said!
"People who doubt “conspiracy theories” when they are disagreeing with the “official story” are not nuts. They are not even “theorists.” They are Truth Seekers."
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Thanks, LincolnMcGrath! Wish my eyes were younger.
I'd have caught my confusing choice of words. The word "doubt" should have been "proposed" or "posit" or "develop" in order to make it clear that analyzing or thinking or putting together or any other attempt at understanding is superior to that of the know-it-all.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
45. I liked that part too and also wanted to quote it...
"People who doubt “conspiracy theories” when they are disagreeing with the “official story” are not nuts. They are not even “theorists.” They are Truth Seekers."

(and don't forget)

"Inquisitive. Intelligent. Kind. Brave. Peaceful. Democrats."

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. hot damn, octafish! i've been scraping around for something like this
since the 7th. thank you for the amazing post!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
37. You're welcome, nashville_brook! Here's something else...

CIA Disinformation in Action,

Operation Mockingbird and the Washington Post


Currently, the Post has mounted vituperative, frenzied attacks on Oliver Stone's movie "JFK", which reexamines the U.S. Government's official (Warren Commission. finding that a single gunman, acting alone, killed President John F. Kennedy. The movie also is the story of New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's unsuccessful prosecution of Clay Shaw, the only person ever tried in connection with the assassination. And the movie proposes that the Kennedy assassination was the work of conspirators whose interests would not be served by a president who, had he lived, might have disengaged us from our war against Vietnam.

The Post ridicules a reexamination of the Kennedy assassination along lines suggested by "JFK". Senior Post journalists like Charles Krauthammer, Ken Ringle, George Will, Phil McCombs, and Michael Isikoff, have been called up to man the bulwarks against public sentiment which has never supported the government's non-conspiratorial assassination thesis. In spite of the facts that the Senate Intelligence Committee of 1975 and 1976 found that "both the FBI and CIA had repeatedly lied to the Warren Commission" (*63) and that the 1979 Report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations found that President Kennedy was probably killed "as a result of a conspiracy" (*64), a truly astounding number of Post stories have been used as vehicles to discredit "JFK" as just another conspiracy (*65).

Some of the more vicious attacks on the movie are by editor Stephen Rosenfeld, and journalists Richard Cohen, George Will, and George Lardner Jr (*66). They ridicule the idea that Kennedy could have had second thoughts about escalating the Vietnam War and declaim that there is no historical justification for this idea. Seasoned journalist Peter Dale Scott, former Pentagon/CIA liaison chief L. Fletcher Prouty, and investigators David Scheim and John Newman have each authored defense of the "JFK" thesis that Kennedy was not enthusiastic about staying in Vietnam (*67). But the Post team just continues ranting against the possibility of a high-level assassination conspiracy while offering little justification for its arguments.

An example of particularly shabby scholarship and unacceptable behavior is George Lardner Jr's contribution to the Post's campaign against the movie. Lardner wrote three articles, two before the movie was completed, and the third upon its release. In May, six months before the movie came out, Lardner obtained a copy of the first draft of the script and, contrary to accepted standards, revealed in the Post the contents of this copyrighted movie (*68). Also in this article, (*69). Lardner discredits Jim Garrison with hostile statements from a former Garrison associate Pershing Gervais. Lardner does not tell the reader that subsequent to the Clay Shaw trial, in a U.S. Government criminal action brought against Garrison, Government witness Gervais, who helped set up Garrison for prosecution, admitted under oath that in a May 1972 interview with a New Orleans television reporter, he, Gervais, had said that the U.S. Government's case against Garrison was a fraud (*70). The Post's 1973 account of the Garrison acquittal mentions this controversy, but when I recently asked Lardner about this, he was not clear as to whether he remembered it (*71).

Two weeks after his first "JFK" article, Lardner blustered his way through a justification for his unauthorized possession of the early draft ofthe movie (*72). He also defended his reference to Pershing Gervais by lashing out at Garrison as a writer "of gothic fiction".

When the movie was released in December, Lardner "reviewed" it (*73). He again ridiculed the film's thesis that following the Kennedy assassination, President Johnson reversed Kennedy's plans to de-escalate the Vietnam War. Lardner cited a memorandum issued by Johnson four days after Kennedy died. Lardner says this memorandum was written before the assassination, and that it "was a continuation of Kennedy's policy". In fact, the memorandum was drafted the day before the assassination by McGeorge Bundy (Kennedy's Assistant for National Security Affairs) Kennedy was in Texas, and may never have seen it. Following the assassination, it was rewritten; and the final version provided for escalating the war against Vietnam (*74) facts that Lardner avoided.

CONTINUED...with loads o' resources:

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thank you
Truth Seeker, for pass'n the word :toast:

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
39. You're welcome, Billy.
Give my love to Montana.

BTW: Has this news reached Tralfamadore?

The Kennedy Legacy: It's Time to Fulfill It

The powerful message in The Kennedy Legacy: It's Time to Fulfill It is that the original American culture, which was created and shaped by our colonial ancestors, is near death. Linda Rae Hermann traces the demise of our inherited culture with its traditions of civility. Without these traditions, the fabric of society has been unraveling. Children killing children and multiple massacres are just a few of the consequences from the loss of our original culture. In other words, Americans have become more uncivilized.

The author takes us on a journey back to our beginnings and up to the present, focusing on the 1960s when the cultural revolution accelerated. She draws from academic knowledge as well as personal experiences in the sixties as a nun, a Hippie, and a convert in the Jesus Movement. After reading this book, you will understand that American culture has been changed. You will understand the role John F. Kennedy was supposed to have played in preserving that culture. You will understand what forces caused the demise of American culture. Finally, you will learn how to restore the original culture along with the traditions and institutions upon which our nation's social and political soundness depends.

Linda Rae Hermann is a school board member and a teacher in San Jose, California. She has her MA in Political Science from San Jose State University and her BA from the University of California at Santa Barbara. Her knowledge of America's cultural revolution is derived from observation, study, and personal participation during its most revolutionary period, Haight-Ashbury, 1967.

From the back cover of
"The Kennedy Legacy"
By Linda Rae Hermann


Can't vouch for the book, as I haven't yet read it, but anything that keeps hope alive is A-OK.
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Melynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
67. Linda Rae Hermann may be on to something
A lot of people who lived through the whole JFK administration and assassination felt like everything change after Dallas. The country hasn't been right since Kennedy was killed.

I think a lot of people have the same thought. That's why we are still fascinated about the JFK assassination. Maybe if we found out the truth about what happen in Dallas we could start to rebuild the country to what it once was.
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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. Here's to Mae Brussel
I spent many hours listening to Mae Brussel in the 70's and 80's. I guess she's probably one of the original "truth seekers". Many of the characters and organizations she talked about are still pulling the strings today. I know she wasn't crazy, just a bit too smart for her own good.

It's hard for us average bears to spend the time to understand all of the players, how they fit together, and to begin to understand the web of connections and how thing operate beneath the surface. Sometimes it's a lot easier just to dismiss the information, or theory, or truth.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
20.  Oswald / HIDell was linked to Korea
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 12:04 AM by seemslikeadream

That is about as close to Manchuria as it gets.

Here is more from Russell's book:

"AlekHidell was also an alias known to have been used by Lee Harvey Oswald in many of his 1963 activities, Nagell was alleging that an Oswald tourist card had been in his possession." (pp. 113)

"Some researchers have speculated that "Hidell" was Oswald's own weird composite of "Fidel" and "Lee Harvey". Others think it might even be a combination of "Jekyll and Hyde". Warren Commission files contain a statement from a John Rene Heindel, who has been stationed with Oswald at Atsugi, saying that fellow Marines often referred to Heindel by the nickname "Hidell". The commission's conclusion was that he simply borrowed the name from his old acquaintance. (Footnote 38)(pp.170-71)

In my conversations with Nagell, it became clear that the "Hidell" alias had a particular significance. In fact, it was some kind of code name in an intelligence operation. Its origins, once again, track back to the Far East and go far beyond anything Oswald might have thought up on his own.

We were in Nagell's living room at our very first meeting when he volunteered that he knew "precisely where the name Hidell came from and why it was used". He went on to say that the Warren Commission was off-base but that neither did the "Hidell" usage emanate directly out of either CIA or FBI headquarters-- even though dossiers of both agencies would reveal Oswald's use of several variations of the name. (39)

" The pseudonyms 'Albert' and 'Aleksei Hidel' were given to Oswald." Nagell added, "by whom, could be discovered by CIA authorities by breaking the last name into two syllables and by determining precisely what those syllables meant. " (40)

After that I spent a long time puzzling over certain references made by Nagell in some of his correspondence:

-Is "Hidell" a name...or does it signify something else?"
-- "Who suggested the name "HIDell" for use by Oswald in his Fair Play for Cuba venture? Why? Did Nagell ever spell his name 'Nagel'? Was Oswald ever furnished a Mexican Tourist Card under the name of Albert Hidel? Why? Of what significance is the name 'Albert'? Alek? Aleksei?" (41)

Nagell seemed to be saying that if you dropped the last letter of the "Hidell" surname--or, for that matter, on his own name--it bore a different meaning. It was some kind of signal.

Then, in 1978, we had a short discussion about the language of intelligence, Nagell told me that the CIA generally used six-letter cryptonyms to designate certain operations, or even individuals within operations (42). Yet Nagell implied that the CIA did not know the real root of the six--letter HIDELL name. So it followed that some other agency, familiar with CIA cryptonyms, might have made it out to look like a CIA derivation.

The KGB, Nagell also imparted to me, sometimes used five-letter words as code name, Drop the "L" from Hidelll or Nagell and that's what you have. Since Nagell, as a "double agent, " was working several sides of the street, might the variation on the alias depend upon which side he, or Oswald, were communicating with? That is, if Oswald even knew who was really behind his use of the name.

I set about dividing the name into syllables. I also noted Nagell's deliberate underlining of the HID half. And, in perusing the documents he had filed with the Court of Claims about his early military career, I observed that he had underlined "HID" not only pertaining to Oswald. He also did so harkening back to his mid-fifties career with Military Intelligence's intelligence outfit, the Headquarter Intelligence Division, or HID, forerunner of the Korean CIA.

Also , among the papers seized by the FBI after the bank incident was a typed slip of paper listing sixteen Korean names under the heading "H.I.D" And, as noted earlier in this chapter, Nagell's notebook accounting of 1962-63 meeting places in a number of cities had "JAPANEZE GOV'T--ROK." at the bottom.

Could this be the connection? I arranged to meet with Nagell at a place in Hollywood called the Raincheck. Early in our conversation, I said. "I think I know where the Hidell name came from" We were sitting a couple of feet apart at a corner table. Nagell looked at me with a quizzical expression.

"You gave Oswald that name to use," I continued. "HID is derived from the Korean intelligence outfit that you worked for the FOI. and 'ELL' are the last three letters of your own name."

Nagell did not reply. He stared back at me, did not deny it and quickly changed the subject. (43)......" (pp.170-72)

Thanks 9215 where ever you are
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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
49. did someone say KGB??
King George Bush the second= KGB II

"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

George Bush Senior speaking in an interview with
Sarah McClendon in December 1992
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. To Mae Brussell! Now THERE's a researcher!
She scared the most powerful people in the world:

She pegged the turds and slugs of the BFEE right and left.

The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination

Evidence of link between Nazis still in operation after World War II to the still unsolved murder of John F. Kennedy

by Mae Brussell


"Sir" Charles Willoughby -- a Franco-German-American

    He was a bull of a man who spoke with a German accent, wore a custom-tailored general's uniform and affected a monocle. A fellow officer in the U.S. army under his true name of Adolph Charles Weidenbach, born in Heidelberg, March 8, 1892. But by the time he became Douglas MacArthur's chief of intelligence for the war in the Pacific, he was Major General Charles A. Willoughby. Behind his back he was derisively tagged "Sir Charles."

    For a man of such Teutonic traits it was odd that Willoughby preferred his fascism with a Spanish accent. But this was an accident of geography. While serving as a military attache in Ecuador, he had received a decoration from Mussolini's government -- the Order of Saints Maurizio and Lazzaro. After delivering an impassioned paean to Spanish dictator Generalissimo Francisco Franco at a lunch in Madrid, he was toasted by the secretary general of the Falangist Party, "I am happy to know a fellow Falangist and reactionary.

    MacArthur's pre-war headquarters were in the Philippines, whose commerce was dominated by resident Spaniards. The Daddy Warbucks of this crowd was Andres Soriano, who owned an early-day conglomerate of airlines, mines, breweries ("Of course!") and American distributorships. During the Spanish Civil War Soriano was one of Franco's principal money-bags. When the Rising Sun flag was raised over the Philippines Soriano fled to Washington to become finance minister of the government-in-exile. But there was such a fuss over his fascist reputation that he flew off to Australia to become a colonel on MacArthur’s staff.

    Willoughby accompanied the Supreme Commander to Tokyo for the occupation of Japan. His preferences remained the same; when military police shook down his hotel looking for a fugitive, they found Willoughby at dinner with the stranded Italian fascist ambassador to Japan and members of his staff. He became a heavy-handed censor, suppressing unfavorable news to the States. He delighted in falsely labeling correspondents who defied him as "Communists," a tactic Senator McCarthy would adopt with enthusiasm. But the general's priority project was a dressed-up history of the Pacific War in which MacArthur would be the towering hero. Willoughby brought in Japanese military brass for a view from the enemy side, a move that may have had an ulterior motive. The possibility existed that Willoughby was down-playing Japanese war crimes so that the perpetrators could be protected for use against the Soviets later. This was happening in Germany where the top nazis were writing the history of Malmedy. The tight security in which Willoughby wrapped the project only adds to this impression. One woman had a passkey, the wife of Dr. Mitsutaro Araki, a former exchange lecturer in Germany, who was closely tied in with high nazis in Tokyo and the Tojo clique.

    Willoughby harbored another secret that only came to light last year. During the war, the Japanese conducted germ warfare experiments with human beings as guinea pigs (at least 3,000 died, including an undetermined number of captured U.S. military). The Pentagon decided that the biological research might prove handy against the Russians, and the Japanese responsible for the experiments were granted immunity from prosecution in return for their laboratory records. On December 12, 1947 the Pentagon acknowledged the "wholehearted cooperation" of Willoughby in arranging the examination of the "human pathological material which had been transferred to Japan from the biological warfare installations."

    As his final public gesture to Franco, Willoughby lobbied the U.S. Congress in August, 1952 to authorize $100 million for the anti-Communist dictator's needs. Then he settled down in the U.S. to do battle with the domestic enemy. As Sir Charles and his right-wing allies saw it, Marxism wasn't the real enemy, the Liberals were.


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silvershadow Donating Member (321 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. just curious
If the CIA was behind it, does that mean the CIA is so powerful and corrupt that they operate completely outside the authority of the sitting President? Could it be that presidents since the Kennedy assasination were either too scared to look into it or were somehow prevented from doing so? Do you think Poppy Bush scrubbed the files when he was Director? Maybe this is why he was later rewarded with the Vice-Presidency and later the Presidency.

PS: Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread, but it just started my wheels turning. It just seems to me that the sitting president should have full control over the CIA, not the other way around.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Ask Poppy. He's got some explaining to do.
I don't know if the CIA was behind it or not. I don't believe, as an agency, it was. I do think there are certain people connected to the agency who were involved in the assassination. Later Thursday I will have more time to provide some solid references and examples.

In the meantime, the following goes to your point about what Poppy did, when. It's an official FBI memo from the national archives that details how George Herbert Walker Bush ratted out one James Parrott the day of the assassination. Then he established his whereabouts -- in Dallas on November 22, 1963. Let's ask Bush, why he was there on the day President Kennedy was slain. Was he on "Company" business?

Then there's THIS memo, from a week after the assassination. It's from J Edgar Hoover himself, talking about the nice briefing with "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency."


So, no. You're not off-topic, at all, silvershadow.

PS: A hearty welcome to DU!

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
133. You ROCK Octafish! What a TRUTH SEEKER you are ...

How I wish for a TRUTH SEEKER Forum.

There is so much information in this thread and you have done an awesome job!

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. IMHO, it was not the entire CIA that was involved......
...but, the segment of the CIA that was involved was involved in the Cuban Task Force, combined with segments of the anti-Castro Cubans, the Mafia (Marcello, Trafficante, and Giancana's organzations), the military, and Big Oil.

Poppy was somehow involved in the killing...a picture has surfaced in recent years of a man that looks identical to Poppy leaning against a wall in Dallas on November 22, 1963. Poppy maintains to this day that he can't remember where he was on November 22, 1963.

As an aside, Nixon had also been in Dallas until roughly 12:30 pm when he flew out of town as the shots were being fired. When confronted by this years later he denied being in Dallas those days...until somebody found his ticketing information.

Poppy was also involved in the Bay of Pigs...two of the landing craft used for that operation were named the Barbara and the Houston. The operation was codenamed "Operation Zapata", the same name as Poppy's oil-drilling company.

Oswald's name turned up in the address book of George DeMohrenschildt, Oswald's good friend in Texas. Poppy's name turned up in DeMohrenschildt's address book. Both DeMohrenschildt and Gianca (mentioned above) were killed before they could testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations. The CIA later revealed that DeMohrenscildt and a fellow by the name of Clay Shaw (Stone's movie "JFK") had been contract CIA operatives.

Oswald had a "Crypto" clearance when he was a radar operator for the Marines based in Atsugi, Japan. His job had been tracking the U-2 in and out of the base, and standing guard over the U-2's hangars. When Oswald returned from his alleged defection to the Soviet Union, neither he nor his family had any problems getting back into the U. S. The pro-Castro leaflets that he handed out in New Orleans had been printed by the CIA, and the address was to an office used by a fellow that had been an operative for the Office of Naval Intelligence. Oswald had also been a member of a Civilian Air Patrol unit headed by David Ferrie (also featured in the movie "JFK").

And finally, think about the same time that Reagan was being shot, Neil Bush was about to have lunch with Hinkley's brother. The Bush and Hinkley families had known each other very well since the days of the booming oil business in Midland, TX.

A tangled web? So tangled that investigators wasted hundreds of hours chasing red herrings. Even when the had parts of the truth, they couldn't be sure of it.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thank you sir! The writings of Harold Weisberg also continue to read.... true as they did when they were first published.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
68. Weisberg reminded us things were not the same.
History, since November 22, 1963, has been a kind of false thing. The only way to make it right today is for the truth of then to come out. There are people still alive who played a role in treason that day. And their political and economic heirs continue treason to this very day.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Oops. Sorry, Media_Lies_Daily! Forgot to include the best part...
A bit on just one of his works, "Case Open," a rebuttal to the BFEE turd Gerald Posner's 1993 JFK conspiracy whitewash, "Case Closed."

"Case Open; The Omissions, Distortions, and Falsifications of Case Closed

Harold Weisberg, Carroll and Graf, 1994, 178 pp.


Harold Weisberg was among the first critics of the Warren Commission and began self publishing a series of books entitled "Whitewash" in 1965. Since then he has filed many Freedom of Information requests for documents about the assassination, Oswald, and the cover-up. When Gerald Posner began to write "Case Closed" he asked for and received permission from Mr. Weisberg to access his files.

When "Case Closed" was published Mr. Weisberg was shocked to learn that instead of being a fresh look at the case it seemed a very one sided "prosecutor's brief" against Lee Oswald. Mr. Weisberg found many "omissions, distortions, and falsifications" in "Case Closed".

One of the main points Mr. Weisberg brings out is that in "Case Closed" Mr. Posner sites a computer analysis of the assassination done by Failure Analysis Associates, Inc. that shows the Kennedy could have been shot from the rear and implies this analysis was commissioned for his book. In fact a computer simulation had been done showing shots coming from the back, and another one done showing the shots coming from the grassy knoll. FAA Inc. had done both simulations for the American Bar Association as a demonstration of how computer modeling could be used to present evidence in a trial. The models were used by the ABA in a mock trial before Mr. Posner wrote his book. Mr. Posner not only implied the simulation was original but conveniently left out the fact that the same company and done a similar simulation showing the shots could have come from the front.


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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'm stunned! Thank you so much for sharing this validation.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 12:12 AM by Beam Me Up

It sometimes becomes very difficult when people around you reflect back a kind of 'are you all right?' attitude when speaking of these matters. This relates to a post I made last night in another 'to conspiracy or to not to conspiracy' thread:

As a little boy I once asked my mother if I was insane.

"No," she said, "You just see things that aren't there."

This is the attitude of what we are calling the "anti-CTs" (lord help us, please!). We're not "crazy" (exactly) we just see things where there aren't anything to see.

Funny that.

People are dying around us in the most peculiar ways and everyone believes they have an explanation for this -- and explanation that sets in motion -- GET THIS -- a war that will not end in our livetimes.

Hey, I'm not making this shit up. That is what we've been told is going to happen and I see little reason to doubt them. I believe we should take them at their word.

However, I'm not sure they are being completely honest with us.

You have to admit, they DO lie to us on a regular basis about just about everything--or do you (not speaking to anyone in particular) not see it that way?

The problem, as I see it, is we are supposed to trust people in authority. Well and good and I wish I could but I don't trust them and I don't see any real reason why I should. If they want my trust they must earn it with their vision, their honesty and their integrity. Why should I support anything less?

Edit, typo
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
72. Constitution gives We the People the Power.
The People, in turn, give consent to the government by electing Representatives. Gee. THAT must be why Reagan and the rest of the, um, conservatives always say "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem?" They really don't like The People.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. George De Mohrenschildt
George De Mohrenschildt is the only man known to have been friends with both George Herbert Walker Bush and Lee Harvey Oswald. The guy had both their names and contact info in his address book.


When Oswald was new to the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, De Mohrenschildt — who until then had hung out exclusively with country club oil-exec types — took "the working class loner and loser" under his wing. There are good indications De Mohrenschildt was Oswald's CIA "handler," or the guy who kept an eye on a former or current contact or agent. Oswald, based on government records and the facts surrounding his "defetion" to the Soviet Union, was CIA-connected, if not an asset.

There are at least two outstanding books on the subject: Professor John Newman, a retired US Army major and a former instructor at West Point, wrote "Oswald and the CIA." Professor Philip Melanson, who teaches at a Massachusetts state university, wrote "Spy Saga."

Online, an excellent biography from Oliver Stone's JFK web site:

Baron George De Mohrenschildt -- he did not use the title, but claimed it based on his Swedish grandfather's commission from the Queen of Sweden -- was born in Czarist Russia near the Polish border. He spoke at least six languages; was married four times; and is alleged to have performed services for at least three intelligence agencies, including the CIA, the OSS (the CIA's predecessor), and French intelligence. His biography remains one of the great marginal mysteries related, at least by circumstance, to the Kennedy assassination. De Mohrenschildt could at various points of his life count as personal friends such notables as President Lyndon B. Johnson, Texas oil billionaire H. L. Hunt, then-Zapata Oil chief George Herbert Walker Bush, and Janet Auchinchloss, mother of Jacqueline Kennedy. Not to mention Lee Harvey Oswald.

De Mohrenschildt told the Warren Commission that, while living in Texas, he'd heard from friends of a young Russian-speaking American with a Russian-born wife living in Fort Worth, and was intrigued enough to arrange a meeting. He said he'd informally inquired about Oswald with a friend, J. Walton Moore of the CIA's Domestic Contact Service. According to the Baron, Moore informed him that Oswald was "just a harmless lunatic." Moore adamantly denied ever discussing Oswald with De Mohrenschildt, but acknowledged that he had a long-standing relationship with the Baron.

In 1977 De Mohrenschildt was recovering from a nervous breakdown. He tracked down at his daughter's home in Florida by author Edward Jay Epstein, then researching his Oswald biography, Legend. The Baron claimed that he'd deceived the Warren Commission on one significant issue: He hadn't asked J. Walton Moore about Oswald; Moore had first mentioned Oswald to him, as far back as 1961, when the "defector" was still in the USSR. Upon Oswald's return, Moore suggested De Mohrenschildt look into Oswald, as the Domestic Contact Division was anxious to debrief Oswald, and apparently Oswald had refused their overtures. In exchange for some assistance from the Agency in smoothing out bureaucratic details of his planned move to Haiti, De Mohrenschildt befriended Oswald and allegedly passed along information to Moore. (Perhaps correctly, perhaps not, Epstein did not believe him.)(1)

De Mohrenschildt's life took a serious turn for the worse after the assassination of President Kennedy. Called back from Haiti to testify before the Warren Commission, De Mohrenschildt would later claim he'd told the Commission what he believed it wanted to hear, characterizing Oswald as "an unstable individual, mixed-up individual, uneducated individual."(2) "He had nothing. He had a bitchy wife, he had no money, was a miserable failure in everything he did."(3)

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Did Poppy Bush know Lee Harvey Oswald?
from Richard Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much".

By the early autumn of 1962, Lee and Marina Oswald's relationship was already devolving into constant bickering. Thirteen days before Nagell's arrival in Dallas from Mexico to make some inquiries about him, on Oct. 10 Oswald had suddenly left his job at a Fort Worth metal factory, bid a temporary farewell to his family, and traveled alone the thirty miles to Dallas. Staying for a few days at a YMCA, opened his first of several post office boxes, Box 2915. On October 12 he suddenly found new employment with the Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall (JCS) photo-lithography firm for $1.35/hour. ...

JCS was an interesting place for a 'redefector' from the USSR to find a job. One of the company's contracts was doing classified work for the U.S. Army Map Service. In this context, employees set type for place names on maps of Cuba. Just days after Oswald arrived JCS, pictures taken by an American U2 spy plane would confirm the existence of Soviet missile launching pads.....

....Hundreds of dollars worth of photographic equipment were discovered by the Dallas police in Oswald's apartment ....

Oswald himself was never known to have been fond of taking long cross-country camera hikes in foreign lands. But someone else was. This was a well-connected Russian e'migre' some thirty years Oswald's senior,....Both the wife and daughter would tell the Warren Commission that it was he who had arranged for Oswald's employment at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall. Not the Texas Employment Commission, as official records would have us believe.....

George Sergei de Mohrenschildt is another of those remarkablely enigmatic characters whom we find permeating the assassination's landscape. He was born in Czarist Russia in 1911, his father a "marshal of nobility" who served as director of Nobel oil interests--hence his own title of "baron." He was a world traveler who spoke six languages and boasted membership in both the exclusive Dallas Petroleum Club and the World Affairs Council....

..."He was traveling extensively ..." one of his friends Mrs. Igor Voshinin, would tell the Warren Commission.
The commission took notice that de Mohrenschildt was acquainted with several powerful people in Houston.....Lyndon Johnson: oil millionaire John Mecom...Another friend of de Mohrenschildt was Jean De Menil of Schlumberger Wells Services Company, who in 1961 permitted his New Orleans branch to be used as an ammunition conduit for the CIA.

The baron's affinity for people in high places even extended as far as LBJ and another future American president, George Bush....

De Mohrenschildt's personal telephone book, discovered after his alleged suicide in 1977, contained this entry: "Bush, George. H. W. (Poppy) 1412 W. Ohio also Zapata Petroleum Midland." (Footnote: "Bush name in de Mohrenschildt notebook: Mark Lane, Plausible Denial p. 332. Lane also notes odd similarities among Bush's Zapata Offshore oil company, the "Operation Zapata" code name given to the Bay of Pigs invasion, and the names of the invasions ships "Barbara" (Bush's wife's name) and "Houston" (Bush's business abode).

....deMohrenschildt later told his wife Jeanne, he was "playing a double game". (pp.273)

...In the summer of 1962, de Mohrenschildt maintained that an associate of J. Walton Moore provided him Oswald's address in Fort Worth, suggesting he might want to meet him. De Mohrenschildt called Moore, noting that in exchange for his services with Oswald, the State Department might assist him with an oil exploration deal he was trying to make in Haiti. (pp.274)

...As de Mohrenschildt eventually wrote in a manuscript about Oswald (reprinted in entirety by the House Assassinations Committee in 1979), his wife, Jeanne, particularly hit it off with the returning defector....(pp.275)

When I told de Mohrenschildt I was a writer, his response was quick. "And I'll bet you want to talk about Lee Harvy Oswald."..."It is all in the Warren Commission. All this new talk is so much lies and bullshit. Nothing will ever be solved, unless somebody comes up with a confession."

"Whatever you write ," he said abruptly, "Lee Harvey Oswald was smart as hell. They make a moron out of him."..."Lee was the most honest many I knew. He was--what?"--deMohrenschildt raised his hand dramatically--"he was ahead of his time really, a kind of hippie of those days....I'll tell you this he did not shoot the President". ..."You hear the way I speak English. I've been here thirty-five years and still I have a foreign accent. And Lee hardly had a foreign accent in Russian, a much more difficult language than English. (pp.278)

I explained I had heard a rumor about twelve hours of taped interviews that George (de Mohrenschidlt) was suppose to have given a Dutch journalist friend named Willem Oltmans.....Jeanne was adamant that she didn't want them out....they decided to write their journalist friend and tell them not to release them under any circumstances.... .

In 1974 de Mohrenschidlt had written the journalist a letter that said in part: "In case of my removal from the scene--by assassination or otherwise--you will be able to sell the tapes.....According to Oltmans, in 1975 the finished film would mysteriously disappear from the Dutch Broadcasting Corporation's archives..... (279)

A few days after de Mohrenschildt's death, Oltmans told newsmen in Washington that de Mohrenschildt had revealed to him: (1) Cubans "who thought that President Kennedy had betrayed them at the Bay of Pigs" had fired at the same time as Oswald and (2) deMohrenschildt had served as a middleman between Oswald and Dallas's wealthy H.L. Hunt oil family . " Mr. deMohrenschildt indicated to me very strongly that his ties upward were toward H. L. Hunt and dowstairs to Lee Harvey Oswald." (pp281)

"Billionaire Texas oilman H.L. Hunt, said by ex-employees to have purchased first copy of the Zapruder film and ordered a check on security surrounding Oswald in custody..... (pp.410)

...via the Oltman's account, de Mohrenschidlt was murdered by two men. They first offered him safe passage to Mexico, and they also asked him to sign a false document draw on up by the CIA. ...these experts know only too well how to make it look like a suicide." pp.282

After I alerted Nagell to the impending publication of Morrow's book, in mid-May of 1976 he sent a certified letter to then CIA director George Bush. Nagell wrote: "I am now advised by a 'most reliable source' that while Mr. Morrow claims to have received much of his information about me from people in the Cuban exile community, a substantial portion of his account actually is based on an unsupported allegations furnished to him by a CIA official who retired in 1974. (pp.409)

Five hours after the assassination, Ily Mamantov, who had never seen Oswald, received a phone call from Jack Crichton asking him to serve as interpreter for the interrogation of Marina. Crichton was in 1963 the president of Nafco Oil & Gas, Inc., and a former head of Military Intelligence. According to information uncovered by the Garrison investigations, Crichton had been among a small group of Army Intelligence officials who met with H.L. Hunt soon after the assassination.

.....George de Mohrenschildt, in his Warren Commission testimony, would describe Mamantov as the one "excessive rightist" of the Dallas's Russian e'migre' community.
Interestingly Mrs. Igor Voshinin told me in 1992 that Mamantov "knew George Bush very well". Bush was president of Zapata Oil in Houston in 1963. "Mamantov died recently," said Voshinin, "but he told me that he had received a very charming letter from President Bush. I remember one line: 'You and I did it'." (She could not recall the context.) pp680

.....After the Watergate break-in where several ex -CIA men and Cuban exiles were caught in 1972, Richard Nixon expressed worry on the White House tape-recording system that this might open up "the whole Bay of Pigs thing." Nixon's chief of staff, H. R. Haldeman later wrote of his belief that the president was really talking about the Kennedy assassination.

George Bush, a Texas oilman in 1963, is also found on the periphery of the assassination. As noted earlier in this book, his name appeared in George de Mohrenschildt's personal notebook and
bush was a friend of Marina Oswald's translator, Ilya Mamantov. When George Bush became CIA director (1976-78), Nagell is on record as having written to him about Robert Morrow's book "Betrayal"

The White House has denied that the president was the "Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency" idntified in a Novermber 1963, FBI memorandum as having been briefed by the FBI on the reacton of Miam's Cuban exiles. But ther is no denying the existence of another recently released FBI memo, which begins:

"On Novermber 22, 1963, Mr. George H.W. Bush, 5525 Briar, Houston, Texas, telephonically advised tha he wanted to relate some hearsay that he had heard in recent week, date and source unknown. He advised that on James Parrott had been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston."

An FBI investigation into Bush's charge failed to turn up any connection whatsoever tying James Parrott to the assassination. Parrott was then an active member of Houston's Young Republicans, who had been involved in picketing members of the Kennedy administration. Bush was then serving as campaign manager for future Republican senator John Tower. Since Parrott's group had come out strongly against a then nascent alliance between Texas Republicans and representatives of the petroleum industry, Bush and Parrott were political enemies..... (pp. 709-10)

KGB file on Oswald:

9215 :hi:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. Prescott Bush, Allen Dulles and Adolf Hitler were an "item."
These are partners in infamy and traitors to the United States.

Allen Dulles, the NAZIs, and the CIA

Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg once stated that "The Dulles brothers were traitors." Some historians believe that Allen Dulles became head of the newly formed CIA in large part to cover up his treasonous behavior and that of his clients. -- Christian Dewar, Making a Killing

Just before his death, James Jesus Angleton, the legendary chief of counterintelligence at the Central Intelligence Agency, was a bitter man. He felt betrayed by the people he had worked for all his life. In the end, he had come to realize that they were never really interested in American ideals of "freedom" and "democracy." They really only wanted "absolute power."

Angleton told author Joseph Trento that the reason he had gotten the counterintelligence job in the first place was by agreeing not to submit "sixty of Allen Dulles' closest friends" to a polygraph test concerning their business deals with the Nazis. In his end-of-life despair, Angleton assumed that he would see all his old companions again "in hell." -- Michael Hasty, Paranoid Shift

The study of the past is beset by uncertainty. Experts on ancient inscriptions can easily get into arguments over whether or not two prominent people with the same name were actually a single individual. The student of modern history doesn't normally run into such problems because our lives today are so well documented. But suppose that most present-day records were to be lost in the course of time, leaving only a few semi-mythic narratives. In that case, future historians might well conclude that the only way to make sense of the twentieth century was by assuming that there were actually two Allen Dulleses.

One Allen Dulles, they would tell us, was the head of a powerful group of covert agents who served the great American Republic at mid-century. The other, who lived and worked slightly earlier, had been dedicated to promoting the interests of the Nazi Reich, which was the sworn enemy of the Americans. Despite the coincidence of names, there could obviously have been no connection between them.

We, with our documentation intact, have no choice but to accept that these two Allen Dulleses were one and the same. But the price of our superior knowledge is that for us the twentieth century threatens to make no sense at all.

How do we begin to untangle this puzzle? Perhaps it would help if we went back to the start.

Allen Welsh Dulles was born to privilege and a tradition of public service. He was the grandson of one secretary of state and the nephew of another. But by the time he graduated from Princeton in 1914, the robber baron era of American history was coming to an an end, ushered out by the Sherman Anti-Trust Act -- which had been used in 1911 to break up Standard Oil -- and by the institution of the progressive income tax in 1913. The ruling elite was starting to view government less as their own private preserve and more as an unwanted intrusion on their ability to conduct business as usual. That shift of loyalties in itself may account for many of the paradoxical aspects of Dulles's career.


Just another bit of the nation's "forgotten" history.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Oh there you go again with that history stuff
That's hard work, reading. I like to play in the sun all day with dbeach at the beach!

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. When's the movie coming out?
Edited on Thu Jul-14-05 07:10 PM by Octafish
Maybe even a music video, where a century of treason is condensed into something the average attention span can, uh, handle.

For those interested:

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

Silesian-American Corporation, ... managed by Prescott Bush, and by his father-in-law George Herbert Walker, who supplied Dub-a-Ya with his name.

* Prescott Bush was also a director of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, (this one owned largely by Roland's brother, Averell Harriman), which owned about a third of the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation, the rest owned by Friedrich Flick, (a member of Himmler's "Circle of Friends" who donated to the S.S.).

* Bush's great-grandfather, Bert Walker, helped organize the Harriman investment in the Hamburg-Amerika Line of ships, of which grandfather Prescott became a director. It was seized on August 28, 1942 because it was used to give free passage to Nazi propaganda and propagandists, and had earlier shipped guns to the Nazi's private armies to assist their takeover of Germany.

* On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the "Trading With the Enemy Act," seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers

CONTINUED to Link City...

"Readers are Leaders" is a phrase Librarians use. Well, almost all librarians.

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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #78
87. the movie is surfin through the apocolypse
starring the Du truth network and their related council of enlightened Zen masters

Philosphy will triumph Policitcs
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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #77
88. ya is smart! the zen rhythims in complete oceanic submersion
can roll this fascist govt made of sand lies with one Kahuna..

'castles made of sand ..go out to sea.EVENTUALLY!!" Jimi hendrix
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. White collar conservative, flashing down the street...
... pointing their plastic finger at me.



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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. "I stilll fly me freak flag high Hiiiii!!.."
"call out the sunfighters.." ."gotta revolution..."

waves of bliss beat mts of hate evry time...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
91. And they'd NEVER consider
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
28. thank you, Truth Seeker
flashback: "I believe in Cynthia McKinney".

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
75. You're welcome, cosmicdot! CMcK got the Treatment, all right.
They gave Cynthia McKinney the "Treatment" because all she did was ask for the Truth about 9-11. Nowhere did she say the smirking moron was behind it, only that certain people stood to make money off the eternal war on terra.

Greg Palast explains just how Corporate McPravda makes certain politicians keep to the script when it comes to the Big Lie:

The Screwing of Cynthia McKinney

By Greg Palast, AlterNet
Wednesday, June 18, 2003

Have you heard about Cynthia McKinney, former U.S. Congresswoman?

According to those quoted on National Public Radio, McKinney’s “a loose cannon” (media expert) who “the people of Atlanta are embarrassed and disgusted” (politician) by, and she is also “loony” and “dangerous” (senator from her own party).

Yow! And why is McKinney dangerous/loony/disgusting? According to NPR, “McKinney implied that the Administration knew in advance about September 11 and deliberately held back the information.”

The New York Times’ Lynette Clemetson revealed her comments went even further over the edge: “Ms. McKinney suggest that President Bush might have known about the September 11 attacks but did nothing so his supporters could make money in a war.”

That’s loony, all right. As an editor of the highly respected Atlanta Journal Constitution told NPR, McKinney’s “practically accused the President of murder!”

Problem is, McKinney never said it.

That’s right. The “quote” from McKinney is a complete fabrication. A whopper, a fabulous fib, a fake, a flim-flam. Just freakin’ made up.


Gee. They don't call it The New York Whoring Times for nothing.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. it's been long enough
These files should be unsealed. They're directly relevant to issues facing us today, specifically government officials now suspected of corruption.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
80. Nixon said "Fire everyone, except Bush. He'll do anything for our side."
Gee. Wonder what the definition of "anything" is.

The Kennedy Assassination:
The Nixon-Bush Connection

by Paul Kangas

Note: All references to "George Bush" refer to George Herbert Walker Bush, Father of George "Dubya" Bush who was "elected" pResident by a 5 to 4 vote of the Supreme Court.

A newly discovered FBI document reveals that George Bush was directly involved in the 1963 murder of President John Kennedy. The document places Bush working with the now-famous CIA agent, Felix Rodriguez, recruiting right-wing Cuban exiles for the invasion of Cuba. It was Bush's CIA job to organize the Cuban community in Miami for the invasion. The Cubans were trained as marksmen by the CIA. Bush at that time lived in Texas. Hopping from Houston to Miami weekly, Bush spent 1960 and '61 recruiting Cubans in Miami for the invasion. That is how he met Felix Rodriguez.


On the day of the assassination Bush was in Texas, but he denies knowing exactly where he was. Since he had been the supervisor for the secret Cuban teams, headed by former Cuban police commander Felix Rodriguez, since 1960, it is likely Bush was also in Dallas in 1963. Several of the Cubans he was supervising as dirty-tricks teams for Nixon, were photographed in the Zagruder film.


On the Watergate tapes, June 23, 1972, referred to in the media as the "smoking gun" conversation, Nixon and his Chief of Staff, H.R. Haldeman, discussed how to stop the FBI investigation into the CIA Watergate burglary. They were worried that the investigation would expose their conection to "the Bay of Pigs thing." Haldeman, in his book The Ends of Power, reveals that Nixon always used code words when talking about the 1963 murder of JFK. Haldeman said Nixon would always refer to the assassination as "the Bay of Pigs."

On that transcript we find Nixon discussing the role of George Bush's partner, Robert Mosbacher, as one of the Texas fundraisers for Nixon. On the tapes Nixon keeps refering to the "Cubans" and the "Texans." The "Texans" were Bush, Mosbacher and Baker. This is another direct link between Bush and evidence linking Nixon and Bush to the Kennedy assassination.

In the same discussion Nixon links "the Cubans," "the Texans," "Helms," "Hunt," "Bernard Barker," Robert "Mosbacher" and "the Bay of Pigs." Over and over on the Watergate tapes, these names come up around the discussion of the photos from Dallas that Nixon was trying to obtain when he ordered the CIA to burglarize the Watergate. (Source: Three Men and a Barge", Teresa Riordan, Common Cause magazine, March/April 1990, and San Francisco Chronicle, May 7,1977, interview with Frank Sturgis in which he stated that "the reason we burglarized the Watergate was because Nixon was interested in stopping news leaking related to the photos of our role in the assassination of President John Kennedy.")


Agree with you 100-percent, wli! We the People need the Truth.
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pox americana Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
30. Wouldn't you just know
that the CIA would leap to the defense of the Warren Commission.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
81. We should see what they don't want us to see about Dallas.
Ever hear of a Congressional investigator named Gaeton Fonzi?

Fonzi may've pegged one of the top-level organizers of the assassination cabal, a fella named of David Atlee Phillips (photo).

David Atlee Phillips


Richard Schweiker, a member of the committee, speculated that Bishop was David Atlee Phillips. Schweiker asked his researcher, Gaeton Fonzi, to investigate this issue. Fonzi arranged for Veciana and Phillips to be introduced at a meeting of the Association of Retired Intelligence Officers in Reston. Phillips denied knowing Veciana. After the meeting Veciana told Schweiker that Phillips was not the man known to him as Bishop.

Fonzi was unconvinced by this evidence. He found it difficult to believe Phillips would not have known the leader of Alpha 66. Especially as Phillips had been in charge of covert action in Cuba when Alpha 66 was established. Other information also emerged to undermine Phillips. CIA agent, Ron Crozier, who worked in Cuba during this period, claimed that Phillips sometimes used the code name, Maurice Bishop.

Phillips testified before the House Select Committee on Assassinations on 25th April, 1978. He denied he ever used the name Maurice Bishop. He also insisted that he had never met Veciana.

Phillips published his autobiography, The Night Watch: 25 Years of Peculiar Service, in 1977. The following year he published Carlos Contract, a novel that dealt with political assassins. Phillips also wrote The Great Texas Murder Trials: A Compelling Account of the Sensational T. Cullen Davis Case (1979).

According to Larry Hancock, the author of Someone Would Have Talked, just before his death Phillips told Kevin Walsh, an investigator with the House Select Committee on Assassinations: "My final take on the assassination is there was a conspiracy, likely including American intelligence officers." (Some books wrongly quote Phillips as saying: "My private opinion is that JFK was done in by a conspiracy, likely including rogue American intelligence people.")


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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
31. This kooky conspiracy theorist appreciates the outstanding work
you do on educating the community about the shadow government that has been in control since that day in Dallas.

I am struck by the similarities of Oswald and Atta...I think back to that media report about Atta's scene at the bank. Creating the Atta demon, very much like the Oswald autobiography shortly after the assassination.....

I wonder if GT will grace us with his thoughts?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
83. Odd that Corporate McPravda have ignored the story.
Even when one of their own reporters gets it on the wire, the presstitute bosses bury the Truth. Then again, when one's owned by the BFEE, that's their job.

Call on JFK to Soviet Embassy Wasn't Oswald


.c The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (Nov. 22) - Hours after President Kennedy was assassinated, FBI agents reportedly listened to a tape of a phone call that a man identifying himself as ``Lee Oswald'' had placed to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.

They made a startling discovery: The voice on the tape was not Oswald's, government records say.

This controversial tape has been a question mark in the assassination investigation since Kennedy was killed. The assassination occurred 36 years ago Monday and only now have new details about the tape come to light.

The CIA said years ago that the tapes on which it recorded the call were erased. Documents released in recent years said otherwise. The latest and newest of declassified documents offer more evidence that the tapes survived.

The discovery that the voice on the tape was someone other than Oswald was a ``disquieting discovery because the man who impersonated Oswald was still at large,'' said John Newman, an ex-military intelligence analyst, author and professor at the University of Maryland.


I don't know who in the heck that guy is, but he looks stronger than a circus strongman and meaner than Dick Cheney.

That's mean.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
32. Sweet, it is all I can say.
Anyone need some tin foil? Conspiracy? Oh please no.

All it takes is two.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
84. Always wondered how Oswald got the SS to change the "parade" route.
How can a low-level "nobody" get a job, a month before JFK's in town, in the very building in front of where the President's open-air car will be passing?

The arrows show where the motorcade made a hard right-and-a-half turn directly in front of the TSBD.

Why didn't it just keep going straight on the center road?

That would have been a straight-away route out of downtown Dallas.

Gee. Oswald must have had "connections."

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
33. Another Octafish post worth waiting up to read!
Thanks Octafish!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
85. Didya read how Parry reports the Bushes are expert at avoiding scandal?
Thank you, lonestarnot! And you're welcome. Nothing gives me more pleasure than the knowledge good people are interested in the Truth.

Here's work by a guy who really knows what he's talking about:

Bush Family Tradition: Ducking Scandal

By Robert Parry
July 15, 2005

If there is one trait that has followed the Bush family through generations of privilege, it is the ability to escape scandal – a skill that will be put to the test again over the leaking of the identity of an undercover CIA officer, apparently to get back at her husband for criticizing George W. Bush’s case for invading Iraq.

The criminal investigation into who revealed Valerie Plame’s identity – and endangered clandestine operatives working with her – has been building for two years. But it is finally reaching critical mass with the disclosure that Bush’s political guru Karl Rove discussed Plame’s CIA work with Time correspondent Matthew Cooper in July 2003.

Rove appears to have been part of a P.R. campaign to punish Plame’s husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, for writing an article on July 6, 2003, that the administration had reason to doubt claims about Iraq seeking yellowcake uranium when Bush cited that dramatic allegation in his State of the Union address in January 2003.

A United Nations agency debunked the yellowcake claim in March 2003 – finding that it was based on forged documents – but Rove and other Bush allies still went on the offensive against Wilson in July 2003. Their primary line of attack was to assert that his CIA wife had authorized his trip to Niger in 2002 to check out the allegations.

It was never clear why this trip-authorization argument was relevant. Presumably it was meant to discredit Wilson by suggesting that the guy was untrustworthy or needed his wife’s help to get a job. (Incidentally, Wilson and Plame denied that Plame authorized the trip, which was ordered by her CIA superiors.)

Yet, even today, Republicans and the powerful conservative news media are continuing this denigration of Joe Wilson. Since the disclosures about Rove tipping Time magazine about Mrs. Wilson’s CIA work, Bush’s defenders have resumed the debate about who authorized Wilson’s Niger trip.


The BFEE: Avoiding indictment since before Pearl Harbor.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
34. I couldn't agree more. Thank you for saying it so eloquently.
DU is a place where we should be able to go with our ideas and not be shot down because it doesn't go with mainstream thinking. Sometimes, we hold pieces that come together like a puzzle.

Anyways, kicked and nominated!:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
86. Thanks, AgadorSparticus! Here's an unpopular idea.
Compiled from a couple of things where I state my opinion and use a source to back it up.

The BFEE has members from both sides of the aisle:

Vietnam and Iraq Wars Started by Same People

The same small group of very wealthy Americans is responsible for wars in Iraq and Vietnam. For want of better term, I’ve called them the Bush Family Evil Empire, the BFEE. This is somewhat misleading, as the Bushes are mere servants to this monied class. A truer description would be “The War Party.”

To the point:

Both Iraq wars were started by Bush and his father. George Herbert Walker Bush practically INVITED Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait then never gave him a chance to pull out.

George Walker Bush INVENTED a connection between Saddam Hussein and 9-11 and LIED to Congress and the American people, stating Hussein threatened America with Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Averell Harriman, business associate of Prescott Bush (a Senator, father and grandfather to the two presidents Bush), was the catalyst for America’s involvement in the disastrous Vietnam War. The historical record shows Harriman OK'd the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem. America's right wing has long-tried to smear President John F. Kennedy for that murder.

Small world, huh? Too small -- especially for war.

While I don't see why this bugs so many DUers as "conspiracy theory," I can understand why the reich-wing media won't touch this. Members of the press corpse know it would lead to their loss of jobs, priviledge and -- most likely -- freedom.

Here's what Corporate McPravda's missed regarding Averell (My widow financed the Arkansas fellow's campaign) Harriman's involvement in Vietnam:

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest?

From The Secret History of the CIA by Joseph Trento:

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodtge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.


“The Secret History of the CIA.” Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.

Big book. Big bore as far as Big Media are concerned.

Gee. Who would of thought it? The same fella who was a business partner with Dulles and Prescott in arming Hitler also played a part in taking the wheels off the Vietnam policy.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
36. It only takes two to have a conspiracy.
Edited on Wed Jul-13-05 05:07 AM by anarchy1999
We have lots of tin-foil.

How many of you have been to Dallas and Dealey Plaza? Seen it?

Lone gun man my ass. I was only six and in the first grade. I remember still and I remember waking up to the news that Bobby was dead.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
92. I haven't had the heart.
The place is where so much ended, it is like my spirit weighed ten tons when I went by there. Well, to be adult about it, I should have gotten out and looked the place over and said, "This is what We the People need to do now."

When it comes to JFK, anarchy1999, there are so many enemies. They are the sign of a good man.

What has surprised me is the role the Secret Service played in setting up Kennedy in Dallas.

Compare the level of protection in Dallas in 1963 and Washington in 2004. In Dallas, JFK's protection is riding in the follow-up car. Of course, LBJ's detail were riding the siderails of his vehicle.

For Bush, this picture from the inauguration shows at least three agents surrounding the armored limo. Who's the little turd from Crawford afriad of? His old family business partner, Osama bin Laden? Doing the math, I'd venture to guess evil men have few enemies.

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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #92
131. Let's not forget the entire state of Virginia's state troopers
and state troopers from other states as well, lined up along the route, five to six rows deep, protecting the Commando-in-Cheat.

Yeah, there could have been some nu-cu-lar snowballs that day. Can't take a chance.

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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
38. study history and save your life and possibly mine
the bush criminals are american royalty and their euro cousins and other elites like the saudis are controlling most of the planets assets.
most wealth is inherited..and they pass laws to continue the generational inheritance and to protect their wealth..the patsy act is designed to deprive the commoners of every rt in the bill of rts..

yes it has not been abused yet..for most of us BUT its there and the bush criminals will use EVERY excuse to ask for more security laws..again all designed to protect them..the privleged.. from us peasants..blair is already asking for more security and if the brits don't resist ..then it will happen here

"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

George Bush Senior speaking in an interview with
Sarah McClendon in December 1992
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
93. Remarks Prepared for Delivery at the Trade Mart in Dallas
President Kennedy understood the central role a good education plays in getting the most out of life and contributing the maximum to making this a better world. And, as a True Democrat, he believed that for ALL Americans. As a True Liberal, he believed that held for all people.

Remarks Prepared for Delivery at the Trade Mart in Dallas

President John F. Kennedy
November 22, 1963

     I am honored to have this invitation to address the annual meeting of the Dallas Citizens Council, joined by the members of the Dallas Assembly--and pleased to have this opportunity to salute the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest.

      It is fitting that these two symbols of Dallas progress are united in the sponsorship of this meeting. For they represent the best qualities, I am told, of leadership and learning in this city--and leadership and learning are indispensable to each other. The advancement of learning depends on community leadership for financial and political support and the products of that learning, in turn, are essential to the leadership's hopes for continued progress and prosperity. It is not a coincidence that those communities possessing the best in research and graduate facilities--from MIT to Cal Tech--tend to attract the new and growing industries. I congratulate those of you here in Dallas who have recognized these basic facts through the creation of the unique and forward-looking Graduate Research Center.

      This link between leadership and learning is not only essential at the community level. It is even more indispensable in world affairs. Ignorance and misinformation can handicap the progress of a city or a company, but they can, if allowed to prevail in foreign policy, handicap this country's security. In a world of complex and continuing problems, in a world full of frustrations and irritations, America's leadership must be guided by the lights of learning and reason or else those who confuse rhetoric with reality and the plausible with the possible will gain the popular ascendancy with their seemingly swift and simple solutions to every world problem.

      There will always be dissident voices heard in the land, expressing opposition without alternatives, finding fault but never favor, perceiving gloom on every side and seeking influence without responsibility. Those voices are inevitable.

      But today other voices are heard in the land--voices preaching doctrines wholly unrelated to reality, wholly unsuited to the sixties, doctrines which apparently assume that words will suffice without weapons, that vituperation is as good as victory and that peace is a sign of weakness. At a time when the national debt is steadily being reduced in terms of its burden on our economy, they see that debt as the greatest single threat to our security. At a time when we are steadily reducing the number of Federal employees serving every thousand citizens, they fear those supposed hordes of civil servants far more than the actual hordes of opposing armies.

      We cannot expect that everyone, to use the phrase of a decade ago, will "talk sense to the American people." But we can hope that fewer people will listen to nonsense. And the notion that this Nation is headed for defeat through deficit, or that strength is but a matter of slogans, is nothing but just plain nonsense.

      I want to discuss with you today the status of our strength and our security because this question clearly calls for the most responsible qualities of leadership and the most enlightened products of scholarship. For this Nation's strength and security are not easily or cheaply obtained, nor are they quickly and simply explained. There are many kinds of strength and no one kind will suffice. Overwhelming nuclear strength cannot stop a guerrilla war. Formal pacts of alliance cannot stop internal subversion. Displays of material wealth cannot stop the disillusionment of diplomats subjected to discrimination.

      Above all, words alone are not enough. The United States is a peaceful nation. And where our strength and determination are clear, our words need merely to convey conviction, not belligerence. If we are strong, our strength will speak for itself. If we are weak, words will be of no help.

      I realize that this Nation often tends to identify turning-points in world affairs with the major addresses which preceded them. But it was not the Monroe Doctrine that kept all Europe away from this hemisphere--it was the strength of the British fleet and the width of the Atlantic Ocean. It was not General Marshall's speech at Harvard which kept communism out of Western Europe--it was the strength and stability made possible by our military and economic assistance.

      In this administration also it has been necessary at times to issue specific warnings--warnings that we could not stand by and watch the Communists conquer Laos by force, or intervene in the Congo, or swallow West Berlin, or maintain offensive missiles on Cuba. But while our goals were at least temporarily obtained in these and other instances, our successful defense of freedom was due not to the words we used, but to the strength we stood ready to use on behalf of the principles we stand ready to defend.

      This strength is composed of many different elements, ranging from the most massive deterrents to the most subtle influences. And all types of strength are needed--no one kind could do the job alone. Let us take a moment, therefore, to review this Nation's progress in each major area of strength.


      First, as Secretary McNamara made clear in his address last Monday, the strategic nuclear power of the United States has been so greatly modernized and expanded in the last 1,000 days, by the rapid production and deployment of the most modern missile systems, that any and all potential aggressors are clearly confronted now with the impossibility of strategic victory--and the certainty of total destruction--if by reckless attack they should ever force upon us the necessity of a strategic reply.

      In less than 3 years, we have increased by 50 percent the number of Polaris submarines scheduled to be in force by the next fiscal year, increased by more than 70 percent our total Polaris purchase program, increased by more than 75 percent our Minuteman purchase program, increased by 50 percent the portion of our strategic bombers on 15-minute alert, and increased by too percent the total number of nuclear weapons available in our strategic alert forces. Our security is further enhanced by the steps we have taken regarding these weapons to improve the speed and certainty of their response, their readiness at all times to respond, their ability to survive an attack, and their ability to be carefully controlled and directed through secure command operations.


      But the lessons of the last decade have taught us that freedom cannot be defended by strategic nuclear power alone. We have, therefore, in the last 3 years accelerated the development and deployment of tactical nuclear weapons, and increased by 60 percent the tactical nuclear forces deployed in Western Europe.

      Nor can Europe or any other continent rely on nuclear forces alone, whether they are strategic or tactical. We have radically improved the readiness of our conventional forces--increased by 45 percent the number of combat ready Army divisions, increased by 100 percent the procurement of modern Army weapons and equipment, increased by 100 percent our ship construction, conversion, and modernization program, increased by too percent our procurement of tactical aircraft, increased by 30 percent the number of tactical air squadrons, and increased the strength of the Marines. As last month's "Operation Big Lift"--which originated here in Texas--showed so clearly, this Nation is prepared as never before to move substantial numbers of men in surprisingly little time to advanced positions anywhere in the world. We have increased by 175 percent the procurement of airlift aircraft, and we have already achieved a 75 percent increase in our existing strategic airlift capability. Finally, moving beyond the traditional roles of our military forces, we have achieved an increase of nearly 600 percent in our special forces--those forces that are prepared to work with our allies and friends against the guerrillas, saboteurs, insurgents and assassins who threaten freedom in a less direct but equally dangerous manner.


      But American military might should not and need not stand alone against the ambitions of international communism. Our security and strength, in the last analysis, directly depend on the security and strength of others, and that is why our military and economic assistance plays such a key role in enabling those who live on the periphery of the Communist world to maintain their independence of choice. Our assistance to these nations can be painful, risky and costly, as is true in Southeast Asia today. But we dare not weary of the task. For our assistance makes possible the stationing of 3-5 million allied troops along the Communist frontier at one-tenth the cost of maintaining a comparable number of American soldiers. A successful Communist breakthrough in these areas, necessitating direct United States intervention, would cost us several times as much as our entire foreign aid program, and might cost us heavily in American lives as well.

      About 70 percent of our military assistance goes to nine key countries located on or near the borders of the Communist bloc--nine countries confronted directly or indirectly with the threat of Communist aggression--Viet-Nam, Free China, Korea, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Greece, Turkey, and Iran. No one of these countries possesses on its own the resources to maintain the forces which our own Chiefs of Staff think needed in the common interest. Reducing our efforts to train, equip, and assist their armies can only encourage Communist penetration and require in time the increased overseas deployment of American combat forces. And reducing the economic help needed to bolster these nations that undertake to help defend freedom can have the same disastrous result. In short, the $50 billion we spend each year on our own defense could well be ineffective without the $4 billion required for military and economic assistance.

      Our foreign aid program is not growing in size, it is, on the contrary, smaller now than in previous years. It has had its weaknesses, but we have undertaken to correct them. And the proper way of treating weaknesses is to replace them with strength, not to increase those weaknesses by emasculating essential programs. Dollar for dollar, in or out of government, there is no better form of investment in our national security than our much-abused foreign aid program. We cannot afford to lose it. We can afford to maintain it. We can surely afford, for example, to do as much for our 19 needy neighbors of Latin America as the Communist bloc is sending to the island of Cuba alone.


      I have spoken of strength largely in terms of the deterrence and resistance of aggression and attack. But, in today's world, freedom can be lost without a shot being fired, by ballots as well as bullets. The success of our leadership is dependent upon respect for our mission in the world as well as our missiles--on a clearer recognition of the virtues of freedom as well as the evils of tyranny.

      That is why our Information Agency has doubled the shortwave broadcasting power of the Voice of America and increased the number of broadcasting hours by 30 percent, increased Spanish language broadcasting to Cuba and Latin America from I to 9 hours a day, increased seven-fold to more than 3-5 million copies the number of American books being translated and published for Latin American readers, and taken a host of other steps to carry our message of truth and freedom to all the far corners of the earth.

      And that is also why we have regained the initiative in the exploration of outer space, making an annual effort greater than the combined total of all space activities undertaken during the fifties, launching more than 130 vehicles into earth orbit, putting into actual operation valuable weather and communications satellites, and making it clear to all that the United States of America has no intention of finishing second in space.

      This effort is expensive--but it pays its own way, for freedom and for America. For there is no longer any fear in the free world that a Communist lead in space will become a permanent assertion of supremacy and the basis of military superiority. There is no longer any doubt about the strength and skill of American science, American industry, American education, and the American free enterprise system. In short, our national space effort represents a great gain in, and a great resource of, our national strength--and both Texas and Texans are contributing greatly to this strength.

      Finally, it should be clear by now that a nation can be no stronger abroad than she is at home. Only an America which practices what it preaches about equal rights and social justice will be respected by those whose choice affects our future. Only an America which has fully educated its citizens is fully capable of tackling the complex problems and perceiving the hidden dangers of the world in which we live. And only an America which is growing and prospering economically can sustain the worldwide defenses of freedom, while demonstrating to all concerned the opportunities of our system and society.

      It is clear, therefore, that we are strengthening our security as well as our economy by our recent record increases in national income and output--by surging ahead of most of Western Europe in the rate of business expansion and the margin of corporate profits, by maintaining a more stable level of prices than almost any of our overseas competitors, and by cutting personal and corporate income taxes by some $ I I billion, as I have proposed, to assure this Nation of the longest and strongest expansion in our peacetime economic history.

      This Nation's total output--which 3 years ago was at the $500 billion mark--will soon pass $600 billion, for a record rise of over $too billion in 3 years. For the first time in history we have 70 million men and women at work. For the first time in history average factory earnings have exceeded $100 a week. For the first time in history corporation profits after taxes--which have risen 43 percent in less than 3 years--have an annual level f $27.4 billion.

      My friends and fellow citizens: I cite these facts and figures to make it clear that America today is stronger than ever before. Our adversaries have not abandoned their ambitions, our dangers have not diminished, our vigilance cannot be relaxed. But now we have the military, the scientific, and the economic strength to do whatever must be done for the preservation and promotion of freedom.

      That strength will never be used in pursuit of aggressive ambitions--it will always be used in pursuit of peace. It will never be used to promote provocations--it will always be used to promote the peaceful settlement of disputes.

      We in this country, in this generation, are--by destiny rather than choice--the watchmen on the walls of world freedom. We ask, therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of "peaceon earth, good will toward men." That must always be our goal, and the righteousness of our cause must always underlie our strength. For as was written long ago: "except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain."


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sallydallas124 Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
41. Truth seekers
...pardon me while I use this term from now on.

When the US government becomes a credible source, let me know, then maybe I won't feel the need to dig for answers elsewhere.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
94. Feel free, sallydallas124.
Until Corporate McPravda start doing their job, we'll have to do the best we can.

Then again, what the presstitutes do is fill the minds of the masses with what the spooks call "disinformation." It's misinformation applied to fill a specific information void. Once that piece of news, say, fill a human mind, it becomes much more difficult to remocve with another piece of information, say, Truth.

Telling Truth From Disinformation"

By Richard Bartholomew

"Telling Truth From Disinformation" is the subtitle given to some introductory remarks in the book, The MK/ULTRA Secret: An Account of CIA Deception by Frank Camper, Victoria Lynn Scott, ed. (Savannah, GA: Christopher Scott Publishing, Ltd., 1996). It is an appropriate subtitle inasmuch as it is what the reader will be attempting to do throughout the book's 384 pages. The main title, as given verbatim above from the book's dust jacket and cloth cover, has a double meaning, which is also appropriate to this work of "non-fiction." Camper is the author of the "account." Is he also the author of "CIA Deception"?

MK/ULTRA, for those unfamiliar with the subject, is the CIA codename for secret mind control projects, including the creation of programmed assassins, conducted by the U.S. government since the second world war. Beginning students of MK/ULTRA and the JFK assassination can get a brief, scary lesson by viewing Patrick Stewart's monologue approximately ninety minutes into the 1997 Warner Brothers film, Conspiracy Theory. Intermediate students can get a longer, scary lesson by reading Foreign and Military Intelligence, Book 1, Final Report of the Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, United States Senate, (Washington DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1976), pp. i-447. Advanced students can get a brief, scary lesson by learning the identity of Warner Brothers' senior vice president for production. No student of MK/ULTRA or the JFK assassination will get much of a lesson from reading Frank Camper's book.

The stated purpose of Camper's book is to reveal that "Lee Harvey Oswald was the MK/ULTRA Secret, and he didn't even know it." Which begs the question: What, then, is Frank Camper? Frank Camper is an elite covert operative of the first class, according to the book's dust jacket. He reportedly served with the Special Operations Group in Vietnam, penetrated terrorist groups in his deep-cover work around the world, and personally prevented the assassination of Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1985, while Gandhi was in the U.S. on a diplomatic mission.

Evidently, those are just the highlights of a career in espionage and intelligence which is further detailed in his July 1988 Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony, over a thousand pages of documents released by the CIA, Army Intelligence and other agencies, and presumably fictionalized in his Mindbenders and The MK/ULTRA Secret novels. If you prefer to wait for "Frank Camper: The Movie," his life story, so he tells us, has been optioned for a feature length film. While we await that premier, perhaps Camper will appear on TV again on the Today Show, Larry King Live or 60 Minutes. If we are really lucky, maybe he will tell us about his fellow government spies who have worked undercover at NBC, CNN and CBS in an "OP/MOCKINGBIRD" effort to spread disinformation.

Which brings me to my first point. Only a fool would trust Frank Camper to publicly tell the truth about any subject, never mind MK/ULTRA or the JFK assassination. Camper tells us that "Under the influence of MK/ULTRA, the CIA turned friendly and enemy agents, politicians and business leaders to its own purposes." He adds that "Telling lies and keeping secrets is the business of intelligence and espionage agencies...Espionage professionals keep secrets toprotect their country or just to protect their careers." Not to mention their lives. Nonetheless, blind trust in Frank Camper's honesty is exactly what this book requires of its readers.


Ignorance isn't bliss.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
42. Another JFK conspiracy theory
He and RFK arranged for Marilyn Monroe to be murdered, because she was about to publicly out their mutual relationships. There are all kinds of "evidence" out there supporting this theory. It is true, after all, that both brothers had repeated sexual relations with her.

I don't particularly like JFK, the escalator of the Vietnam War, enabler of the military-industrial complex, and tax-cutter for the wealthy, but I don't necessarily subscribe to the above theory either. I happen to think she committed suicide, because that is where the evidence, rather than my bias, points to as the most likely outcome.

That is what most conspiracy theories are: personal prejudices disguised as facts. Cherry-picking is their friend.

For the record, I think the Warren Commission Report stinks too, but I don't claim I have the answers in the face of its deceptions.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. JFK, the escalator of the Vietnam War, enabler of the military-industrial
"JFK, the escalator of the Vietnam War, enabler of the military-industrial complex, and tax-cutter for the wealthy"

lot's of conspiracy theory, there... sounds like personal prejudices disguised as facts. Cherry-picking is your friend - woof

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
96. Professor John Newman will be remembered as a Patriot.
When he was a Major in the U.S. Army, John Newman was a history professor at West Point. There he got to do some research into the Pentagon Papers and discovered a big gap in the public record. He ended up re-discovering Professor Peter Dale Scott's pair of National Security Action Memoranda from Fall of 1963 that just about say it all. The NSAMs, like today's National Security Decision Directives, were action orders.

In NSAM 263: JFK authorized the withdrawal of all U.S. forces from Vietnam. He wants the job done, one way or another, by 1964.

In NSAM 273: Written just days after the assassination, President Lyndon B. Johnson authorizes whatever level of suppport is required to support, defend and preserve the government of South Vietnam.

Gee. A few months after that and we have the Gulf of Tonkin incident and a casus beli.

Peter Dale Scott

The JFK Researcher Who Came in from the Cold


It was ten years later, while sifting through the Pentagon Papers, the government-commissioned study on the Vietnam conflict, that Scott turned up what he believed to be evidence of a sudden escalation in the war following Kennedy's death. The goods lay buried in two convoluted National Security Action Memorandums, NSAM 263 and NSAM 273, the first signed in October 1963 by Kennedy and the second signed by President Johnson days after Kennedy's death.

In his 1972 book, The War Conspiracy, Scott went out on a limb to write, "The systematic censorship and distortion of NSAM 273, first by the Pentagon study and later by the New York Times, suggests that the Kennedy assassination was itself an important, perhaps a crucial, event in the history of the Indochina war conspiracy."

Here's what Scott discovered in his readings of the NSAM documents: Despite intense opposition within his administration, Kennedy's NSAM 263 authorized plans "to withdraw 1000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963" as "an initial step in a long-term program to replace U.S. personnel." Elsewhere, Kennedy's administration had declared its intention to "withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel. . . by the end of 1965."

Johnson's NSAM 273, drafted before Kennedy's death but not approved by Kennedy, was significantly rewritten on Johnson's orders. It was, as Scott and his critics both agree, intended to reassure the nation that Johnson had not changed national policy. But a close reading of the document suggests the opposite. Johnson's NSAM ignored NSAM 263's explicit authorization of the 1,000-man withdrawl, stating instead, "The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawl of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963." That White House statement was not Kennedy's binding NSAM 263, but a non-binding advisors' report. Therefore, when the Pentagon failed to withdraw 1,000 men by the end of the year, the false impression was that no binding orders were broken.

NSAM 273's doublespeak included a provision directing that military assistance programs to Vietnam should not be reduced, which seems to contradict NSAM 263 and other Kennedy policy statements. The clearest signal of a sweeping policy change, though, was NSAM 273's explicit plans for escalating the war--including carrying the war north--plans that Kennedy had vigorously resisted. These "actions of graduated scope and intensity," as a key Johnson advisor described NSAM 273's orders, led directly to U.S. destroyer patrols and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which marked America's belly flop into the proverbial quagmire. These plans, long promoted by the Pentagon, were shoe-horned, two days before his death, into the draft NSAM that Kennedy never approved.

"I think even Cockburn has fallen into the establishment's account of history," Scott says, digging for his copy of The Nation, buried under a heap of books on the assassination. "That account has already successfully created the illusion of continuity between Kennedy and Johnson. Starting right after the assassination, itself, there were articles in both the New York Times and Washington Post on November 25, 1963, which talked about how the objectives of withdrawl remained the same. They were all quoting from the misleading part of NSAM 273, which was, I think, drafted for that very purpose."


OPINION: Way to go LBJ! And the BFEE behind ya.

BTW: Don't tell me about Chomsky. When it comes to JFK and Vietnam, he's wrong.

BTWSM: Newman wrote a superb work on "Oswald and the CIA," as well. Scott's got too many great writings to list, but if needed, I'll be happy to.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. Science & research ALWAYS takes us into areas we don't expect ...
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #54
97. Hey, Sparkman! We're using what you're talking about to communicate.
President Kennedy said, "Let's go to the moon and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard." He understood going to the moon had been considered an impossibility for most of humanity's existence. But in 1961, he lived in a time when anything was possible in America.

JFK's national directive to land a man on the moon and return him safely to the earth -- before the decade is out -- accelerated the development of the integrated circuit and the microcomputer. Look how much progress they've made possible?

Imagine what the world would be like if President Kennedy had lived? I believe we would have tackled the mundane terrestrial problems like poverty, hunger, disease, ignorance, war. And because we are the United States of America, where anything can happen, we would have done something about those problems -- a lot more than just talking about them.

That's where we come in Sparkman. A hearty welcome to DU!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
95. I don't claim to have the answers. I use sources who shed light...
... on the subject. When people don't like the source, great, disagree or bring in another. I don't mind. I'm interested in getting to the truth at hand.

The truth about President Kennedy is he was a great man. A war hero. A true Democrat. Believed in God, Country and Family. Wish we had more like him.

You know what's not so wild a conspiracy theory? That the same crowd that killed the father, killed the son.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
43. Oh' it's way older than Kennedy.
Look up the articles of the Elders of Zion. Read up about the theories of the Freemasons/Illuminati. Conspiracy theories have been around since people in power decided to keep secrets.

These were truly paranoid theories (not to insult those who still believe in Illuminati/"Behold: a Pale Horse" theories that still abound today though)...the trouble is that JFK and others were placed in the same league as some of the more wacky historical ones by a clever marketing campaign aimed strictly at discrediting questions they don't want to answer. Remember Ohio/2004? What did all the Republicans on the House floor say as if they were reading from a script, to quash any attempt to investigate? "Conspiracy Theory". Some who claim to have seen alien spacecraft usually bring this up as well, which only plays into the hands of those who don't want to answer questions. Everybody sees UFOs, but flying saucers and abductions are very different and in UN-credible. "So is your theory of a stolen election. Republicans would never steal elections!"
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-15-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
98. Thanks, Touchdown! And an extra point...
Where was the Secret Service protection?

They were ordered on the follow-up car.

A film taken at the airport on 22 November 1963 shows a Secret Service man actually being ORDERED off the Presidential limo by another SS agent. Incredible, but it looks like they set him up.

The Secret Service was ORDERED to stand down on the day of the assassination. That clip of video SHOWS an agent ORDERED OFF THE PRESIDENT'S CAR. This is certain evidence of government involvement in the assassination. It shows conspriacy. It is proof of TREASON.
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johngeraghty Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
44. Kennedy Assassination
I would be grateful if somebody started this in a new thread as I don't have enough pots to start a thread yet.
I need signatures for this petition to reopen the investigation into the Kennedy assassination.
I made this petition a few months ago and it has been dragging along, partly because I haven't advertised it enough. I'm going for an all out signature drive on the internet. Any help would be great, email it to your friends, post it on forums, but most of all SIGN IT. I promise that if you sign it, it will not be left to linger and I will send it to congress with a few thousand names on it, hopefully including most critics of the official account, politicians, members of the kennedy administration, members of the press, government watchdogs and anybody else that wants to help make a difference.
I will hand this peition to every US senator and congressman along with a dvd detailing why the assassination should be reopened.
I know you may think that this will fizzle out, but I'm going to do my best.

If anyone knows anybody who has an interest or was directly involved in this case please get them to sign it.

[email protected]
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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. Please sign this petition about JFK
I met JFK in 1958 and it was a sad day on 11/22/63.

we are still trapped in the unsolved "killing of the king".

the nation is still held hostage by the same elites and their mentality

BK MLK JFK jr some tragedy

the descent of the family Kennedy and the ascent of the family bush..

such coincidence!!
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
46. Octafish is a consistently good poster at DU.
And this was another informative thread...good job.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
99. Thanks, lateo! Ever hear of "Conspiracy Phobia"?
Also apprciate the kind words.

Here's some light on the subject of why the LEFT, of all people, poo-poo conspiracy talk when it comes to JFK, let alone everything else that's happened...

From Dirty Truths by Michael Parenti
(1996, City Lights Books)
(Pages 172 - 191)


Almost as an article of faith, some individuals believe that conspiracies are either kooky fantasies or unimportant aberrations. To be sure, wacko conspiracy theories do exist. There are people who believe that the United States has been invaded by a secret United Nations army equipped with black helicopters, or that the country is secretly controlled by Jews or gays or feminists or black nationalists or communists or extraterrestrial aliens. But it does not logically follow that all conspiracies are imaginary.

Conspiracy is a legitimate concept in law: the collusion of two or more people pursuing illegal means to effect some illegal or immoral end. People go to jail for committing conspiratorial acts. Conspiracies are a matter of public record, and some are of real political significance. The Watergate break-in was a conspiracy, as was the Watergate cover-up, which led to Nixon's downfall. Iran-contra was a conspiracy of immense scope, much of it still uncovered. The savings and loan scandal was described by the Justice Department as "a thousand conspiracies of fraud, theft, and bribery," the greatest financial crime in history.

Conspiracy or Coincidence?

Often the term "conspiracy" is applied dismissively whenever one suggests that people who occupy positions of political and economic power are consciously dedicated to advancing their elite interests. Even when they openly profess their designs, there are those who deny that intent is involved. In 1994, the officers of the Federal Reserve announced they would pursue monetary policies designed to maintain a high level of unemployment in order to safeguard against "overheating" the economy. Like any creditor class, they preferred a deflationary course. When an acquaintance of mine mentioned this to friends, he was greeted skeptically, "Do you think the Fed bankers are deliberately trying to keep people unemployed?" In fact, not only did he think it, it was announced on the financial pages of the press. Still, his friends assumed he was imagining a conspiracy because he ascribed self-interested collusion to powerful people.

At a World Affairs Council meeting in San Francisco, I remarked to a participant that U.S. leaders were pushing hard for the reinstatement of capitalism in the former communist countries. He said, "Do you really think they carry it to that level of conscious intent?" I pointed out it was not a conjecture on my part. They have repeatedly announced their commitment to seeing that "free-market reforms" are introduced in Eastern Europe. Their economic aid is channeled almost exclusively into the private sector. The same policy holds for the monies intended for other countries. Thus, as of the end of 1995, "more than $4.5 million U.S. aid to Haiti has been put on hold because the Aristide government has failed to make progress on a program to privatize state-owned companies" (New York Times 11/25/95).

Those who suffer from conspiracy phobia are fond of saying: "Do you actually think there's a group of people sitting around in a room plotting things?" For some reason that image is assumed to be so patently absurd as to invite only disclaimers. But where else would people of power get together - on park benches or carousels? Indeed, they meet in rooms: corporate boardrooms, Pentagon command rooms, at the Bohemian Grove, in the choice dining rooms at the best restaurants, resorts, hotels, and estates, in the many conference rooms at the White House, the NSA, the CIA, or wherever. And, yes, they consciously plot - though they call it "planning" and "strategizing" - and they do so in great secrecy, often resisting all efforts at public disclosure. No one confabulates and plans more than political and corporate elites and their hired specialists. To make the world safe for those who own it, politically active elements of the owning class have created a national security state that expends billions of dollars and enlists the efforts of vast numbers of people.


Most of all, thanks for giving a damn, lateo!
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
50. I Never Heard That LBJ and RFK Disagreed with the Report
the Nixon tapes show that he also thought the Warren Commission was a joke. That carries a lot of weight with me.

My only question is whether any of these three had specific information that they kept secret or whether they were repeating a consensus among politicos that there was something wrong with the circumstances of the assassination.

BTW, I prefer the mafia theory, but could also believe other scenarios. I've even seen a defense of the single-bullet theory that sounded quite credible.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
102. To me, the facts indicate it was a government job.
There are too many conditions that only someone on the inside could manage, for example, the motorcade route was changed to pass directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

They didn't have to turn right (west) on Houston and then a left turn and a half (south, southeast) down Elm. They could've continued straight, south on Main Street, and still gotten to where they wanted to go.

LBJ Phone Calls - November 1963

This set of transcripts, along with selected audio recordings, were made during the November days immediately following the assassination of President Kennedy. Some of them concern the formation of the so-called "Warren Commission", which was formally announced on November 29, 1963.

A few phone calls with FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover discuss the early results of FBI investigations into the death of President Kennedy. Ths first of these, recorded at 10:01 AM on November 23, less than 24 hours after the assassination, appears to have been erased. A transcript survived the apparent erasure--in it, Hoover tells Johnson that tapes of Oswald contacting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City don't match the voice of the living Oswald. Hoover says "it appears that there is a second person who was at the Soviet Embassy down there."

SOURCE, plus transcripts of phone conversations in PDF Form:

Then, there's the problem of all the suspicious deaths, coincidences and the rise of the right.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Not the whole government, or an entire agency, though.
Should make clear, I mean individuals within the government seemed to have played roles in the President's murder.

A question: How many presidents since November 22, 1963 have tried to discover the facts of the case?

I do seem to remember Jimmy Carter bringing up an interest in re-opening the investigation while on live television, but the TV broadcast went dead. While I read that in a book, I remember when it happened.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
51. Yes we are truth seekers. Thank you, Octafish.
You are an exceptional teacher.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
103. You're welcome, Just Me!
You made my day. Many in my family are and have been educators. My grandfather used to say: "The only cure for poverty is a good education." I think that's a very progressive, American sentiment.

Regarding the assassination: I don't believe the government, as an entity, was behind the assassination. I do believe certain individuals, many "serving" in the highest levels of authority, were aware, at minimum, in the plot. Take J. Edgar Hoover, please.

Here's what the late Hale Boggs (NPR Cokie Roberts' dad) and former member of the Warren Commission had to say about the Hoove:

"Hoover lied his eyes out to the commission -- on Oswald, on Ruby, on their friends, the bullets, the gun, you name it."

Here's a decent resource that lists many of the main players and theories.

The Conspiracy Theories

Let's say Oswald had help -- or was set up.
Who did it?

by Pamela Colloff and Michael Hall

(Texas Monthly, November 1998)

THERE IS NEVER AN ORDINARY DAY AT DALLAS' DEALEY PLAZA, where personal revelations and quiet mourning are as familiar as the downtown rush-hour traffic. But this August afternoon is stranger than usual: A dark blue 1961 Lincoln Continental convertible limousine is sitting in the center lane of Elm Street, which has been blocked off. Stills of the Zapruder film line the sidewalk, serving as the storyboard for the day's activities: a restaging of the century's most famous murder, the assassination of John F. Kennedy, for a television documentary that will try to determine, with the help of lasers, where the shots came from. Three men in white shirts are huddled around the convertible, bending and shifting the limbs of its foam rubber passengers. A gray dummy sits in the back seat, just as Kennedy did, while another -- in John Connally's place -- rests on the jump seat in front of him. "His arm has got to come over more," insists one man, pulling the president's left arm farther across his spongy torso. A film crew circles the scene, while tourists, ballistics experts, conspiracy buffs, and reporters watch the goings-on. "But shouldn't his other hand be over the chrome line?" asks one observer. The men in the white shirts mull this over, glancing first at the film stills and then at the mannequins, before resuming their work. The heat is oppressive, but the comparing and tweaking continues late into the day.

Of course, they will never get it right: the precise slant of a wave, the tilt of a head, the trajectory of a bullet. Elm Street has been closed several times for such reenactments, but there is still no consensus on exactly what happened. There are too many shifting perspectives, inexplicable details, and active imaginations, all aching to make sense of a senseless act. Over the past 35 years, countless theories have evolved, but they discount the overwhelming proof, both physical and circumstantial, that Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who shot Kennedy. "I have sent men to the electric chair with less evidence," said Henry Wade, Dallas County's district attorney in 1963.

In 1964 the Warren Commission concluded that Oswald was Kennedy's assassin, and that he had acted alone. But the official story had troubling inconsistencies: Conflicting eyewitness accounts, discrepancies in the autopsy reports, and the unlikely paths and precision of Oswald's shots all suggested more than one gunman had been at Dealey Plaza. The first cries of foul play came from across the Atlantic, most notably from English writer Bertrand Russell, but it wasn't until 1966, with the publication of Mark Lane's Rush to Judgment and Edward Jay Epstein's Inquest, that the Warren Commission's findings were challenged at home. Life magazine, which had purchased the Zapruder film soon after the assassination, launched a new investigation of the case. The magazine's consultant, former Navy lieutenant Josiah Thompson, argued the following year in Six Seconds in Dallas that a close examination of the film showed the president being shot from several directions, hence a conspiracy.

New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison stepped into the fray in 1967, using the loose ends of Oswald's life -- he had defected to the Soviet Union and sought asylum in Cuba and had tenuous connections to anti-Castro militants -- to speculate that the CIA had somehow been involved. For the most part, the public ignored such cynical talk, but as first Vietnam and then Watergate wore on, its distrust grew. Interest in a more thorough investigation of the Kennedy assassination reached critical mass in 1975, when the Zapruder film was first shown on TV and Senate hearings revealed that the CIA had conspired with the Mafia to kill Fidel Castro in the early sixties. The following year, the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) was formed, and in 1979 it concluded that while Oswald was indeed the gunman, he had had an accomplice, who shot, and missed, from the grassy knoll. The existence of a conspiracy was confirmed -- by the federal government, no less. The HSCA also hinted at involvement by Cuban exiles or members of the mob, a theory that remained in vogue throughout the eighties. Since 1991, when Oliver Stone's controversial movie JFK used Garrison as its hero and pointed fingers at the CIA, the FBI, Cuban exiles, military intelligence, and munitions profiteers, the specifics of the various theories have been lost, replaced by a sense of overall complicity: Everyone was in on it.

What follows is an overview of the conspiracy oeuvre, though it is hardly exhaustive. We haven't included some of the shadowy figures -- Umbrella Man, the Babushka Lady, Badge Man -- that populate the fringes of conspiracy-think. Nor do we examine the more far-out theories: that Joe DiMaggio, angered at Kennedy's treatment of his ex-wife, Marilyn Monroe, got his Italian friends to knock him off; or that the president, who was already suffering from Addison's disease, staged his own death, ensuring a glorified place in history; or that Frank Sinatra's drummer, Franklin Folley, was somehow involved. Instead, we present the ones that have endured over the years. They are as intriguing as they are implausible, and they raise as many questions as the Warren Commission failed to answer. Underlying all of them are uncanny coincidences, convergences of terrible knowledge, and most important, a desire to believe that there was a grand design -- some kind of meaning and purpose -- behind Kennedy's murder. Thirty-five years later, these narratives have become more appealing than the banal alternative: a lone nut, a good shot, an utterly vain death.


The article's not perfect in that it doesn't come out and say what happened. That's our job.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
52. Ridicule works everytime to discredit what you don't want known...
and has been working ever since....

Someone has a question and they are called :tinfoilhat: because they don't completely agree with what has been touted as the truth.

Nothing works quite as well as ridicule. Once you have that label, no one takes you seriously. Too bad that the ones who have the courage to want to dig deeper are mocked and marginalized.

Thanks for this, Octafish:)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. The putdown “You’re not a conspiracy theorist?” has had its day
It’s usually an excuse for not doing homework. As to the events of Sept. 11th, it’s those who cling to the “official story theory” that have a lot of explaining to do, not those raising many, many troubling questions

Dateline: Monday, March 04, 2002

A response, by Barrie Zwicker, to a doubting reader

The use of the term "conspiracy theory" is highly problematic, notwithstanding its being so widely tossed about, always accompanied by a rolling of the eyes, etc. It's high time that the illegitimacy of this term is exposed.

Let’s take the first word first: conspiracy.

There are such things as conspiracies, large and small. Conspiracy is recognized in law as a crime. There's "conspiracy to defraud," "conspiracy to commit murder," and so on. Individuals are charged and found guilty of conspiracy charges every day.


Now take the word theory:

There are such things as theories. Theorizing is a key tool in the scientific method, and indeed is used by all of us in our everyday lives, also.


Now put the words together: conspiracy theory.

This term, combining these two uncontroversial words, should be used without fear or favour as a descriptive term. It is demeaning and anti-intellectual to accompany its use with rolling of eyes, certain tones of voice, etc. as a putdown of any person who brings forward a theory that there is, or may be, a conspiracy in connection with a particular event or series of events.


I think the shoe finally is on the other foot. Anyone contining to place his or her faith in the official story of the events of Sept 11th, must, so far as I can see, be:

- An "incompetence theorist," or

- A "coincidence theorist."

These are the theories that are most in need of defence...

This article is unfortunately archived and requires a paid subscription. The site has MUCHO excellent stuff for anyone interested.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Countering with "coincidence theorist" is my stock reply for over a decade
now. Raises a brow or two. ;))))))))))))
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. yet every wacko statement about the Clintons is 'truth', not a CT
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
105. Once a person has a certain, fixed image of another person...
... it becomes stuck in his or her mind's eye. This "idee fixe" prevents the mind from moving past the image to the issue, or facts, at hand. That means, a good propagandist, like Allen Dulles or Karl Rove, can manipulate the mass media to create the images in the public mind they want and preventing the public considering what is the Truth.

I see smear boats. Sinking.


Adam Blatner, M.D.
(This article was first published in the Journal of Group Psychotherapy, Psychodrama & Sociometry, 48(4), 155-158, Winter, 1996). (Posted on website, July, 2002)

I believe it is necessary to interpret Moreno's writings, as I do not always find him very clear. One of his more intriguing passages is at the beginning of his 1947 translation and revision of his 1923 book, The Theatre of Spontaneity. He writes on page 3 of his "suffering" from an idee fixe, a French term for a mild obsession, not so much in the pathological sense, but rather more as a guiding vision:

..."The idee fixe became my constant source of productivity; it proclaimed that there is a sort of primordial nature which is immortal and returns afresh with every generation, a first universe which contains all beings and in which all events are sacred. I liked that enchanting realm and did not plan to leave it, ever."

Moreno then goes on to write about his story-telling in the gardens (i.e., parks) of Vienna, and then notes: "It was not as much what I told them, the tale itself, it was the act, the atmosphere of mystery , the paradox, the irreal become real..." (Now I'm aware that I'm being a little selective, here, because taking the whole of these few pages results in a blur of ideas, digressions and circumstantiality. Engaging in an act of interpretation necessarily requires a certain kind of focus.)

Then the top of page 4 is what I consider to be the most revealing and possibly meaninful paragraph in all Moreno's writings:

"When gradually the mood came over me to leave the realm of children and move into the world, it was with the decision that the idee fixe should remain my guide. Therefore, whenever I entered a new dimension of life, the forms which I had seen with my own eye in that virginal world stood before me. They were models whenever I tried to envision a new order of things or to create a new form. I was extremely sure of these visions. They seemed to endow me with a science of life before experience and experiment verified their accuracy. When I entered a family, a school, a church, the house of congress and any other social institution, I revolted against them in each case; I knew they had become distorted and I had a new model ready to replace the old."

Moreno goes on to talk about the theater at this point, but that is because it became his vehicle, his laboratory for developing his ideas. Yet I have not been able to find in his own writings any more explanations about specifically what that idee fixe entailed!

I think, though, Moreno was talking about this "primordial nature" or "first universe" on pages 34-35 about a realm of existence he called "metapraxie," and which I noted in 1988 to be the equivalent of a Platonic realm of ideal forms--and also related it to Jung's concept of archetype and the Jewish mystical system called "Kabbalah." (Although in the original article I hadn't found evidence of Moreno's knowing about Kabbalah, later I discovered in Moreno's autobiography--published in the journal in 1989, on page 30, that he did indeed study this approach.).

I think Moreno was describing what I call "the source," a vision of a world in which the best of child-like-ness (not child-ish-ness) is integrated with the best of maturity. These child-like qualities include openness, warmth, self-expression, self-disclosure, affection, moving away from that which seems unpleasant, imaginativeness, innocence, art, playfulness, exuberance, physical involvement, excitement, dramatization, enactment, excitement, vitality, and above all--and perhaps including all--spontaneity and creativity.


"...a first universe."

Most imporant: You're welcome, Desertrose. Your very presence improves all our worldviews.

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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
55. Turd Blossom Sr. learned from his CIA history.
I have never seen as much criminal activity go unreported in the media during my lifetime as I have during this current administration.

Clearly, shrub Sr. studied CIA strategy concerning the media and passed this information on to the chimp.

With the recent media surge concerning rovegate, I am beginning to suspect that the media is FINALLY beginning to push back. Hopefully this trend will continue.

Thanks for the wonderful post. This current batch of republi-craps has probably been emboldened by the past CIA media coup concerning the assassinations. No wonder they act in such a ballsy, insane way.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #55
69. Yep. As a general rule, serial murderers will continue to murder
as long as they can get away with it. No one stops them, so why should they stop?

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #69
109. Remember El Salvador?
This is where 95-percent the people live on pennies a day. The top five-percent do OK; with the very, very top doing very, very well.

The U.N. Truth Commission on the El Mozote Massacre

CARECEN Homepage     Human Rights Directory

Editor's Note: In 1992 a U.N.- sanctioned Truth commission investigated the 1981 massacre at El Mozote in the Morazan Department of El Salvador. Below are excepts from its report.

Summary of the Case

On 10 December 1981, in the village of El Mozote in the Department of Morazan, units of the Atlacatl Battalion detained, without resistance, all the men, women and children who were in the place. The following day, 11 December, after spending the night locked in their homes, they were deliberately and systematically executed in groups. First, the men were tortured and executed, then the women were executed and, lastly, the children, in the place where they had been locked up. …
These events occurred in the course of an anti-guerrilla action known as "Operacion Rescate" in which, in addition to the Atlacatl Battalion, units from the Third Infantry Brigade and the San Francisco Gotera Commando Training Centre took part.
In the course of "Operacion Rescate", massacres of civilians also occurred in the following places: 11 December, more than 20 people in La Joya canton; 12 December, some 30 people in the village of Rancheria; the same day, by units of the Atlacatl Battalion, the inhabitants of the village of los Toriles; and 13 December, the inhabitants of the village of Jocote Amarillo and Cerro Pando canton. More than 500 identified victims perished at El Mozote and in the other villages. Many other victims have not been identified.


During the morning, they proceeded to interrogate, torture and execute the men in various locations. Around noon, they began taking the women in groups, separating them from their children and machine-gunning them. Finally, they killed the children. A group of children who had been locked in the convent were machine-gunned through the windows. After exterminating  the entire population, the soldiers set fire to the buildings.

The soldiers remained in El Mozote that night. The next day, they went through the village of Los Toriles, situate 2 kilometres away. Some of the inhabitants managed to escape. The others, men women and children, were taken from their homes, lined up and machine-gunned.

The victims at El Mozote were left unburied. During the weeks that followed the bodies were seen by many people who passed by there. …


...The Atlacatl Battalion was a "Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalion" or "BIRI", that is, a unit specially trained for "counter-insurgency" warfare. It was the first unit of its kind in the armed forces and had completed its training under the supervision of United States military advisors, at the beginning of that year, 1981.


Aiding, abetting and directing the mass murder of innocent human beings: How Reagan and Bush and the BFEE use YOUR tax dollars. Sounds downright NAZI.

Remembe, too: At the end, they try to take everybody with them.
In the meantime, they do as much as they can get away with. And like Hitler in '45, they'll try to take as many innocents with them when they go out.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
108. Family of Shame
Truly, I appreciate you keeping aware of the big scam going on, all around us, TWiley!

The guy in the middle warned us. And that was before these turds and slugs owned Corporate McPravda. Today they control what gets covered and what doesn't. They control what people know and can think about. Thus, they control much of what people do or don't do.

Why won't the U.S. Media
uncover and reveal the

Bush Family Value$

How many Americans would have thought so highly of this family as to have entrusted so many high offices to its members, if the mainstream media had not continued for decades to HIDE the horrible story of how the George Herbert Walker Bush family "earned" much of its wealth and power, i.e. by serving as the principal bankrollers in America of Adolf Hitler and his "National Socialist Party", both in its rise to power and even after World War II was declared, with NAZI Germany on one side, and America on the other?  ( And yes, we know that George H.W. Bush served as a U.S. navy pilot.  But that is a tiny part of a much larger story.)

        How many people know anything about the "George Herbert Walker" and the Prescott Bush from whom both of the Bush presidents got their names?  George Herbert Walker was the grand-father of the first President Bush and Prescott Bush married Walker's daughter, and became his "partner in crime" in the years leading up to World War II.  Prescott Bush was rewarded by the Republican Party for siding with the Nazis against the United States, with a seat in the U.S. Senate for himself, < from the state of Connecticut>, and with the U.S. Presidency for his son and his grand-son.  And the U.S. media did what they were told, and did their best to make sure that the American public never learned any of this !


Allen Dulles
Chief Architect of U.S.-NAZI business and spy networks

* spy at the U.S. embassy in Bern, Switzerland, collecting political data for the State Department on Germany and the Austro-Hungarian empire (1916-1918)
* member, U.S. staff, Versailles Peace Conference (1918-1922)
* head, State Department's Near East Affairs division (1922-27)
* worked with brother John Foster Dulles, as lawyer and international finance specialist for Sullivan & Cromwell, a Wall Street law firm in New York (1927-1941).  While there, he worked with top NAZI industrialists and played a pivotal role in promoting U.S.-NAZI corporate relations. Allen worked with Prescott Bush (grandfather of President George Walker Bush) and George Herbert Walker (Prescott's father-in-law) who ran Union Banking Corporation for the Nazis.  Allen was legal counsel for Standard Oil and the Nazi's I. G. Farben, co-owned by the Rockefellers.  (Other U.S. millionaires allied to the Nazis were: William Randolph Hearst Sr., Andrew Mellon, Irenee du Pont, Henry Ford and J.P. Morgan. Morgan, du Pont and others were even involved in a Fascist plot to overthrow the U.S. government in 1934.)
* President Roosevelt, realizing Dulles was a traitor, had his New York "Office of Coordinator of Information" wiretapped (1941-42). Some Dulles-linked firms, like Bush's Union Banking Corp., were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act (1942)
* Berne station chief, Office of Strategic Services (1942-1945).  Roosevelt's plan to charge Dulles with treason failed when Dulles was warned and covered his tracks (1944).  Roosevelt's plan died with him (1945). 
* as OSS station chief in Berlin, Dulles negotiated the agreement with General Reinhard Gehlen to establish a NAZI spy network within the OSS (1945).
* Dulles helped in the development of the CIA (1947), became its deputy director (1951) and its director (1953-1961).  He oversaw numerous covert operations, such as election rigging in Italy (1948), coups in Iran (1953) and Guatemala (1954) and many other notorious operations described in this issue.
* When Union Banking Corp. was liquidated, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker received $1.5 million (1951)
* was fired by President Kennedy after the failed invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs (1961)
* as a member of the Warren Commission, he promoted the theory that a "lone gunman" assassinated John F. Kennedy (1963).



A few connections: Wall Street and the CIA. And the NAZIs. And the Mafia. And the narcotraffickers. And the military-industrial complex. And the money launderers. Add Nixon and the Southern Strategy and you've legitimized the KKK. Gee. It really is an Octopus.

Thanks also for the most kind words, TWiley! You have no idea how much it matters to me that you and other DUers give a damn about what the Bush Crime Family and their employers have done, and are doing, to America and the world.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
56. Thak you Octafish.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
110. The PHOENIX Program
Something missing from too many history books and American memories:

Documents from the Phoenix Program

supplied and introduced by Douglas Valentine
author of The Phoenix Program

>>> Created by the CIA in Saigon in 1967, Phoenix was a program aimed at "neutralizing"—through assassination, kidnapping, and systematic torture—the civilian infrastructure that supported the Viet Cong insurgency in South Vietnam. It was a terrifying "final solution" that violated the Geneva Conventions and traditional American ideas of human morality. (For a full introduction to Phoenix, see below.)

While researching the Phoenix Program for my book on the subject, I conducted over a hundred interviews and collected boxes full of documents from individuals, as well as from the State Department and Department of Defense. The most important documents provided by any one individual came from retired CIA officer Nelson Brickham, the man most responsibile for the creation of the Phoenix Program.

Luckily for history, Brickham kept copies of the documents he wrote while with the CIA; otherwise, there would be no documentary evidence of how Phoenix was actually created. During the evacuation of Saigon in April 1975, the CIA destroyed most of the documents it had about its assassination program, and none of what it kept at Langley headquarters can be obtained through Freedom of Information Act
requests. This is no accident, for Phoenix is the model for the equally terrifying US homeland security aparatus.


Attack Against VC Infrastructure

A Concept for Organization for Attack on VC Infrastructure

Personal Observations

A Proposal for the Coordination and Management of Intelligence Programs and Attack on VC Infrastructure and Local Irregular Forces

MACV Directive 381-41

Action Program for Attack on VC Infrastructure, 1967-1968

Carver memo, 7 August 1967 (re: Attack on the Viet Cong Infrastructure)

Program Guidance--Mount Attack on VC Infrastructure

ICEX Briefing, August 1967

MACV Joint Messageform DTG 06 0910Z

MACV Directive 381-43

Evaluation Report: Processing of Viet Cong Suspects

Directive of the Prime Minister on the Neutralization of the VCI

Phung Hoang Advisor Handbook

Internal Security in South Vietnam - Phoenix

The Phoenix Project and Its Creator, Nelson Brickham

by Douglas Valentine

Nelson Brickham joined the CIA in 1949, serving first in the sedate Directorate of Intelligence, then transferring in 1955 to the Operations Division, where he served in the high-profile Soviet-Russia Division. Brickham gained a wide range of experience, from running black propaganda and false-flag recruitments, to gathering information on Soviet missile silos. Over the years he developed his own "systems approach" to spookery that he later employed when developing the Phoenix Program.


Most importantly: You're welcome, XanaDUer. I know the above is old hat to you, but to newer DUers, guests and visitors it is news. Thanks also for giving a damn.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
57. Conspiricy Theory is a bullshit propaganda term.
Most people use the term "conspiricy theory" to mean unsupported conspiricy theory not realizing that they have fallen in a linguistic trap that discredits all accusations of conspiricy.

This is very convienent for the gangsters who run this country.
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pox americana Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. CT + bogus PC = NWO
That's our New World Order, brought to you by the CIA and PNAC, and don't you dare question anybody's "patriotism" or "sensitivity."
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #57
111. You hit the nail on the head, K-W.
Turd Blossom got a smirking idiot "elected" pretzeldunce twice using these techniques:

Gore the Big Liar.

Kerry the Big Liar.

Who's zooming who?

A dandy overview of the problem and a few things we can do about it:

Anxiety Culture: The Propaganda System

How semantic propaganda works & and how to undo it

Language can have "hypnotic" or "propagandistic" effects. But with the right knowledge we can resist. This article uses Bush and Blair quotes as examples of propagandistic language.

Hypnotic Propaganda

We list below several types of language "distortions" which are often used for hypnotic or propagandistic effect. These are divided into two categories: semantic and cognitive. (For short, we'll lump them all together under the term "Cognitive-Semantic Distortions", or "CSD".)

If we regard language as a map of the territory of reality, it follows that the more CSD in language, the more inaccurately the map represents the territory.

CSD can occur "naturally" in everyday communication (often causing misinterpretations, communication breakdowns, arguments, hostility, etc), but propaganda intentionally loads language with CSD to induce "hypnotic" effects. This normally works by the "map" so inadequately representing the "territory", that the audience has to "fill in the gaps" in their own minds. This process of "going inside" one's mind to fill in the gaps of the "map" corresponds to "hypnotic induction."

(When professional hypnotists perform hypnotic inductions, they try to avoid using jarring language by letting the patient fill in the gaps. They do this by being non-specific. For example, they might say, " feel pleasant feelings in your body...". The hypnotist doesn't say what the pleasant feelings are – that's left to the patient to fill in. Being more specific runs the risk of jarring the patient into resistance.)

Rabble-rousers do the same thing. For example, they might talk of "defending our deeply-held values", and each audience member experiences a different personal interpretation of "deeply-held values" according to their own inner maps.

Most propaganda tends to be more subtle than this. In fact, it sounds indistinguishable from "respectable" political speech. Probably the only difference is that propaganda (according to our definition) is designed, whereas most political speech contains CSD due to an institutionalised habit (going back centuries) of minimising content likely to alienate voters or offend power interests. (This results in extremely banal communication, which nevertheless has propagandistic and hypnotic qualities.) The higher the level of political speech, the more likely that the speech-writers design the speech to have a propagandistic effect.


Dehumanizing the enemy is soooo helpful.

Remember when the twisted Queen of England said, "The Irish are pigs"?

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long_green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
60. A kick, and a thank you, 'fish
I have enjoyed your posts on the assassination for a while so it's nice to address you even in this indirect fashion.
I'd like to see more on the James Tague angle of the investigation. His testimony was one of the things for which Posner did not have a ready answer. No one does. I do not know what the exact gap was between the end of the FBI's "investigation" and Tague's coming forward but you might. It is the point at which the official investigation went off the rails.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
112. Tague was the bystander injured by a stray shot in Dallas.
... In all honesty: I had to cheat and GOOGLE to place the name, but I did remember the story. The fact he was bleeding, witnessed by a policeman when it happened, means that there had to be more than three shots fired. (This is in addition to eyewitnesses who saw policemen digging shots out of the grass and the bullet hole in the limo windshield, etc.) Well, Hoover had to tell LBJ that there was one gunman and he fired three shots. To make that come true they needed a "magic bullet."

Does this look like a bullet that went through two men, striking at least seven bones, only to be found on a stretcher at the hospital that wasn't even USED to treat the President?


Michael T. Griffith
@All Rights Reserved

     Why does the wounding of James Tague constitute evidence that a second gunman was firing during the assassination of President Kennedy? Because it is very probable, if not certain, that none of the three bullets that were allegedly fired by Lee Harvey Oswald could have caused Tague's injury and/or nicked the curb near Tague.

Some Basic Facts About the Wounding of James Tague

     When the shots were fired, James Tague was standing near the triple underpass in Dealey Plaza. He was about 450 feet from the Texas School Book Depository Building (TSBD). Suddenly, a bullet, or a sizable bullet fragment, apparently struck the curb on Main Street about 20 feet from where he was standing. Moments after the shooting, a police officer noticed that Tague was bleeding from his left cheek. It was assumed that Tague had been struck by a piece of concrete that had been sent flying by the projectile that had struck the curb, or by a fragment from the bullet that hit the curb, or by a fragment that struck him before it hit anything else. The curb scar was deep enough that Tague assumed he could have been cut by a chip of concrete from it. He recalled that when the shooting started he had felt a sting on his cheek. Later, he described the mark on the curb as it appeared when he saw it:

There was a mark. Quite obviously, it was a bullet, and it was very fresh. (Weisberg, CASE OPEN, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1994, p. 141; Warren Commission Report 116, hereafter cited as WCR )

     Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers, who saw the mark soon after the shooting, agreed that it had been caused by a bullet (Henry Hurt, REASONABLE DOUBT, New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1985, p. 135). Patrolman Clyde Haygood, who radioed in the incident at around 12:40, seems to have been under the same impression (WCR 116). In a 1966 filmed interview, Tague unequivocally said the curb mark was the result of a bullet striking the curb.

The Implications of the Tague Incident

     Why does the wounding of Tague destroy the lone-gunman scenario? For a number of reasons. One reason is that it virtually proves there were at least four bullets fired at the President, but the lone-assassin theory allows for only three shots.

     The lone-gunman theory allows for only one miss. Yet, if the supposed miss from the sixth-floor window hit the curb near Tague, without striking anything else first, then it was a wild miss. Realizing this fact, and accepting the evidence of an early first-shot miss, most modern lone-gunman theorists claim that only a fragment caused the mark on the curb. There is, in fact, good evidence, which is now accepted by leading Warren Commission (WC) defenders, that the first shot was fired much earlier than the Commission thought it was, and that this shot missed. But if the first shot was fired before the limousine drove beneath the oak tree, how could that missile have caused Tague's injury and/or struck the curb? However, if Tague's wound wasn't caused by the first miss--which, according to WC supporters, was the ONLY miss--then what bullet or bullet fragment could have caused it? Here's where the lone-assassin case gets particularly desperate and far-fetched.


PS: THanks for the kind words, long_green. Going from you post count -- A hearty welcome to DU! Going from your post -- Welcome home! And thanks for giving a damn about our country!
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
61. I really appreciate your posts, Octafish
Always enlightening.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
113. Remember MOCKINGBIRD?
Allen Dulles called the press a "mighty Wurlitzer." The expressions conjures images of the theater organist, hitting hundreds of keys that were able to create hundreds of moods and reactions in the audience. Most apt.

Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation

By Mary Louise
The CIA's secret activities, covert missions, and connections of control are all done under the pretense and protection of national security with no accountability whatsoever, at least in their minds. Considering the public is held accountable for everything we think, say, and do there is something seriously wrong with this picture. The CIA is the President's secret army, who have been and continue to be conveniently above the law with unlimited power and authority, to conduct a reign of terror around the globe. The "old boy network" of socializing, talking shop, and tapping each other for favors outside the halls of government made it inevitable that the CIA and Corporate America would become allies, thus the systematic infiltration and takeover of the media. Under the guise of 'American' objectives and lack of congressional oversight, the CIA accomplish their exploits by using every trick in the book (and they know quite a few) that they actually teach in the notorious "School of the Americas", nicknamed the "School of Dictators" and "School of Assassins" by critics.

The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that 6 million people had died by 1987 as a result of CIA covert operations, called an "American Holocaust" by former State Department official William Blum. In 1948, the CIA recreated its covert action wing called the Office of Policy Coordination with Wall Street lawyer Frank Wisner as its first director. Another early elitist who served as Director of the CIA from 1953 to 1961 was Allen Dulles, a senior partner at the Wall Street firm of Sullivan and Cromwell, which represented the Rockefeller empire and other trusts, corporations, and cartels. Starting in the early days of the Cold War (late 40's), the CIA began a secret project called Operation Mockingbird, with the intent of buying influence behind the scenes at major media outlets and putting reporters on the CIA payroll, which has proven to be a stunning ongoing success. The CIA effort to recruit American news organizations and journalists to become spies and disseminators of propaganda, was headed up by Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, and Philip Graham (publisher of The Washington Post). Wisner had taken Graham under his wing to direct the program code-named Operation Mockingbird and both have presumably committed suicide.

Media assets will eventually include ABC, NBC, CBS, Time, Newsweek, Associated Press, United Press International (UPI), Reuters, Hearst Newspapers, Scripps-Howard, Copley News Service, etc. and 400 journalists, who have secretly carried out assignments according to documents on file at CIA headquarters, from intelligence-gathering to serving as go-betweens. The CIA had infiltrated the nation's businesses, media, and universities with tens of thousands of on-call operatives by the 1950's. CIA Director Dulles had staffed the CIA almost exclusively with Ivy League graduates, especially from Yale with figures like George Herbert Walker Bush from the "Skull and Crossbones" Society. Many Americans still insist or persist in believing that we have a free press, while getting most of their news from state-controlled television, under the misconception that reporters are meant to serve the public. Reporters are paid employees and serve the media owners, who usually cower when challenged by advertisers or major government figures.

Robert Parry reported the first breaking stories about Iran-Contra for Associated Press that were largely ignored by the press and congress, then moving to Newsweek he witnessed a retraction of a true story for political reasons. In 'Fooling America: A Talk by Robert Parry' he said, "The people who succeeded and did well were those who didn't stand up, who didn't write the big stories, who looked the other way when history was happening in front of them, and went along either consciously or just by cowardice with the deception of the American people."

Major networks are primarily controlled by giant corporations that are obligated by law, to put the profits of their investors ahead of all other considerations which are often in conflict with the practice of responsible journalism. There were around 50 corporations a couple of decades ago, which was considered monopolistic by many and yet today, these companies have become larger and fewer in number as the biggest ones absorb their rivals. This concentration of ownership and power reduces the diversity of media voices, as news falls into the hands of large conglomerates with holdings in many industries that interferes in newsgathering, because of conflicts of interest.


Of course, today we know Dulles created a "Mighty Whorelitzer."

Most important: Thank you for the kind words, Frederik. And I appreciate your posts, DU Friend!
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-13-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
62. These clowns always make me wonder
I mean, HOW can covering up the assassination of a sitting president by the CIA be GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY? They took this approach with the 2000 coup and now take it daily with Iraq - nothing to see here, if you question our motives then you must be a terrorist. Blech, just the thought leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. :(
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #62
114. Clowns is clowns.
Chimpy McCokespoon.

The pRretzeldunce of the USA.

You have expressed it perfectly, Rex.

If lying isn't good for a Democracy, what's it good for?

A police state.

In Police State America, Every Crime Is Terrorism | February 23, 2005

Since the Police State is getting so strong and adept, John walters thinks we should use its techniques to fight the drug war. Never mind the fact that the government is shipping the drugs in -- what we need is more control and more police.

After all, since the Patriot Act has been used so successfully to target American Citizens for such "terrorist" offenses as selling a knock-off Rubik's cube taking pictures of Dick Cheney, why not continue extending its reach to all and everything.

Go visit our extensive "Patriot Act: Targeting American Citizens" section to see how the Patriot Act is already being used in every possible way.

Funny, we thought the Patriot Act was there to target terrorists...That's right, in the new Police State every crime is terrorism

U.S. Drug Czar Likens Fighting Drugs to Terror

Reuters | February 23, 2005
By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON - The United States should employ some of the techniques it is using to fight international terrorism in its war on drugs, U.S. drug czar John Walters said on Tuesday.


Gee. The smirking idiot did say things would be a hack of a lot easier if he were dictator.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
70. Kick a great post.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
115. Remember Guatemala?
That where E. Howard Hunt and Co. got their buttons.

CIA and Assassinations:
The Guatemala 1954 Documents

by Kate Doyle and Peter Kornbluh

These documents, including an instructional guide on assassination found among the training files of the CIA's covert "Operation PBSUCCESS," were among several hundred records released by the Agency on May 23, 1997 on its involvement in the infamous 1954 coup in Guatemala. After years of answering Freedom of Information Act requests with its standard "we can neither confirm nor deny that such records exist," the CIA has finally declassified some 1400 pages of over 100,000 estimated to be in its secret archives on the Guatemalan destabilization program. (The Agency's press release stated that more records would be released before the end of the year.) An excerpt from the assassination manual appears on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times on Saturday, May 31, 1997.

The small, albeit dramatic, release comes more than five years after then CIA director Robert Gates declared that the CIA would "open" its shadowy past to post-cold war public scrutiny, and only days after a member of the CIA's own historical review panel was quoted in the New York Times as calling the CIA's commitment to openness "a brilliant public relations snow job." (See Tim Weiner, "C.I.A.'s Openness Derided as a 'Snow Job'," The New York Times, May 20, 1997, p. A16)

Arbenz was elected President of Guatemala in 1950 to continue a process of socio- economic reforms that the CIA disdainfully refers to in its memoranda as "an intensely nationalistic program of progress colored by the touchy, anti-foreign inferiority complex of the 'Banana Republic.'" The first CIA effort to overthrow the Guatemalan president--a CIA collaboration with Nicaraguan dictator Anastacio Somoza to support a disgruntled general named Carlos Castillo Armas and codenamed Operation PBFORTUNE--was authorized by President Truman in 1952. As early as February of that year, CIA Headquarters began generating memos with subject titles such as "Guatemalan Communist Personel to be disposed of during Military Operations," outlining categories of persons to be neutralized "through Executive Action"--murder--or through imprisonment and exile. The "A" list of those to be assassinated contained 58 names--all of which the CIA has excised from the declassified documents.

PBSUCCESS, authorized by President Eisenhower in August 1953, carried a $2.7 million budget for "pychological warfare and political action" and "subversion," among the other components of a small paramilitary war. But, according to the CIA's own internal study of the agency's so-called "K program," up until the day Arbenz resigned on June 27, 1954, "the option of assassination was still being considered." While the power of the CIA's psychological-war, codenamed "Operation Sherwood," against Arbenz rendered that option unnecessary, the last stage of PBSUCCESS called for "roll-up of Communists and collaborators." Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of sucessive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians.

Click on the document icon to view each document.

Document 1, "CIA and Guatemala Assassination Proposals, 1952-1954", CIA History Staff Analysis by Gerald K. Haines, June 1995.

CIA records on assassination planning in Guatemala were first gathered pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed in 1979. All of them were withheld on national security grounds at that time. In 1995, the CIA's historical staff "rediscovered" these records during a search of Guatemala materials to be declassified as part of the agency's "Openness" program. A staff historian, Gerald Haines, was assigned to write this brief history of these operations. He concluded that as early as January 1952, CIA headquarters began compiling lists of individuals in Arbenz's government "to eliminate immediately in event of successful anti-Communist coup." Planning for assassination included budgeting, training programs, creation of hit teams, drafting of target lists of persons, and transfer of armaments. Haines writes that "until the day that Arbenz resigned in June 1954 the option of assassination was still being considered." The CIA, according to this history, did not implement its assassination strategy. But the declassifiers of this study, and other related documents, have deleted the names of the targeted individuals, making it impossible to verify that none of them were killed during or in the aftermath of the coup.

Document 2, "A Study of Assassination", Unsigned, Undated.


Gee. "A Study of Assassination." Sounds, um, scientific.

Most important: Thanks for the kick, TWiley! Much obliged.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
71. Great post.
And there are some really important issues brought up on the discussion on the thread, resulting from your insight. This is what DU is all about, at least at its best.

Some of us grew up in the 1960s. Without going into boring detail, I think some of my experience is likely common. My parents were raised to believe in the America of the 1950s. When JFK was killed, they forced themselves to ignore what was all too obvious, and believe the unbelieveable -- meaning what the government told them.

They believed we had to stop the communist team in the great domino contest, and there were ugly, vicious arguments between my parents and my siblings on the war. My father insisted his sons would wear the uniform that every generation of his family wore since coming here from the Old Sod in the 1800s.

One night, his supervisor and his son visited. The son told my father the truth about Vietnam. My father then said his sons would move to Canada before going to Vietnam.

By the time of the democratic convention in 1968, my parents knew that this country was not so different from those their families had left to come here. And when Watergate occured, even though they were democrats, they felt that the working class had been betrayed in ways that shook their faith in America.

My extended family is "law & order." There are more people in police and related fields than most states have. And none of them -- including the republicans among us -- seem to believe anything that the government says on face value.

I said that to say this: in the final analysis, all tyranny rests in the fraud and deceit that your excellant OP describes. It depends upon convincing people to accept a false assumption on "face value." I am convinced that any person who, for even a brief moment, abandons or suspends that questioning spirit that you advocate has, at that very moment, actually betrayed all of humanity .... and the war in Iraq is merely one example that is current.

Thus, while I may not subscribe to the same interpretations of some of the events of this era that are popular on DU, I always respect the people who are skeptical of every word that comes dripping from this administration's lips, or indeed of the democrats in national positions of power, for that matter.

As always, I enjoy your thought-provoking essays.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
116. Great post, H20 Man! As always, you carry the water...
Truly appreciate what you wrote. You must have a most special family, as demonstrated in the kinds of things you write about and care about. Their good natures also show in you and your words.

During World War II, my great-grandfather was head of the local draft board. To set the example, he had four of his five sons -- save one, who was a banker and needed in that civilian capacity -- in uniform. He was like your father, a man of INTEGRITY.

That's why we care so darn much. Our country, families, and future depend on us. It's not just tradition. It's that we've been raised to do the right thing, to the hard jobs, to give it our all -- no matter what.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #116
125. This administration is not
what my family joined the military to support. In fact, it's the opposite. And, as sad as it is to say it, the congress is filled with the lowest quality of representatives and senators in our nation's history. There was a time, just before the last election, when a good friend told me it was time to get out, to move to another land. He noted that I should do it to protect my children from what is to come. I spoke to my family, particularly my boys who are draft age, and to my brother-in-law and nephews. One nephew said, "No way. This is our country. We either believe in the Bill of Rights, or we don't. The democratic process is worth fighting for." Every one of that generation agreed. They aren't going to don a uniform for Halliburton. They aren't going to toss bricks off buildings. They are going to exercise those rights outlined in that Bill of Rights. To me, that is the real America.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
76. Kicked, bookmarked, recommended.
As usual, Octafish, you knock it out of the park!

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
117. Thanks, robertpaulsen!
Coming from you, that means a lot. I've seen how your work on the 9-11 timeline, including all its associated criminality and treason, has served to apply the heat to the pimply derriers of Smirk and Sneer and the rest of the Bush Crime Family.

What do they call people like you and all good DUers?

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-14-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
79. I can recall Oswald's mother, at some point
telling the media that "her boy" was a government agent. Of course, it was spun as a grieving mother going completely nuts.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #79
101. The American government was co-opted
the day Kennedy was shot. My classmate Steve and I both KNEW IT and we were only 13.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #101
127. You and Steve got it, Karenina! Things have not been the same since.
It's remarkable. Some DUers don't believe there's a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy or even a Bush Family Evil Empire.

You and I are Democrats and we respect other people's opinions and views, even those with whom we disagree.

I do believe in the VRWC and BFEE, perhaps more accurately termed the Bush Transnational Criminal Enterprise. Here's why:

Bush Crime Line

• Vietnam
• Bay of Pigs
• Chile
• Watergate
• October Surprise
• El Salvador
• Reagan Survives Hinckley and Bush
• NAZI Ethnics for Reagan-Bush
• Voodoo Economics
• INSLAW/Promis
• Haiti
• Iraq-gate / Banca Nazionale del Lavoro arms to Saddam
• BCCI International Money Laundering for Terrorists & Intelligence Community arming Dr AQ Khan
• Savings & Loan scandal in general and Silverado in particular
• Iran-contra Guns/Drugs/Martial Law
• Gulf War I Glaspie Gives Go-Ahead
• Selection 2000 Shreds US Constitution
• Tax Cuts for UltraRich
• Criminal Justice Department
• Suicidal Environmental Policy
• ENRON Energy Policy
• 9-11 Criminal Negligence, at best; Treason, most likely
• Illegal Iraq Invasion
• Faked Intel
• Valerie Plame Affair
• Paperless Selection 2004

(And that's just a partial listing)

It’s interesting in reviewing the above list, just how much ultra-right, conservative Republican leadership has really been. More than a listing of criminality, the list demonstrates there have been many treasonous activites against “We the People” through “business opportunities” in the finance, energy, and defense industries.

There is one FAMILY name that runs through all the history, the four decades since the JFK administration. Since the very hour of President Kennedy’s death, and through the list of sinister events and unrelenting criminality noted above — a record of infamy stretching back 41 years today — appears the name George Herbert Walker Bush, a tradition continued by his son, George Walker Bush, beard of the BFEE.

All you co-incidence theorists -- I have links and resources for the above.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #79
118. Oswald and the CIA
Professor John M. Newman, Major, U.S. Army (ret.), researched the intel background of Lee Harvey Oswald. He found that the U.S. had sent another guy to spy on the Soviets, using the exact same "defector" M.O used by Oswald to get in. What's more, Newman got a hold of plenty of CIA and FBI documents and put together the real story of the guy. Mrs. Oswald was right. Her son was involved in intelligence work on behalf of the Government of the United States.

"I'm a patsy."

The Framing of Oswald

"The CIA advised that on October 1, 1963, an extremely sensitive source had reported that an individual identified himself as Lee Oswald, who contacted the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City inquiring as to any messages. Special Agents of this Bureau, who have conversed with Oswald in Dallas, Texas, have observed photographs of the individual referred to above, and have listened to a recording of his voice. These special agents are of the opinion that the above-referred-to individual was not Lee Harvey Oswald."

The paragraph shown above comes from an FBI memo sent to both the White House and the Secret Service on November 23, 1963, the day after President Kennedy's assassination. It was a follow-up to a phone call at 10:01 AM, in which Director Hoover informed Lyndon Johnson of the same fact. Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of Kennedy held in police custody in Dallas, had been impersonated in phone calls to the Soviet Embassy in Mexio City.

The fact that Oswald was impersonated less than two months prior to the Dallas shooting was obviously important news. What made the revelation even more stunning was that, in one such call, "Oswald" referred to a previous meeting with a Soviet official named Kostikov. Valeriy Kostikov was well-known to the CIA and FBI as a KGB agent operating out of the Embassy under official cover. But, far more ominously, the FBI's "Tumbleweed" informant had previously tipped off the U.S. that Kostikov was a member of the KGB's "Department 13," involved in sabotage and assassinations.

An otherwise inexplicable impersonation episode takes on an entirely new meaning in this light. The calls from the Oswald impersonator made it appear that Oswald was a hired killer, hired by the Soviet Union no less. This was a prescription for World War III.

Perhaps the perfect plan was foiled by the fact that Oswald was captured, allowing the FBI to interrogate him and compare his voice to the tapes of these tapped phone calls, which were apparently flown up from the CIA's Mexico City Station on the evening of November 22. In any case, what should have been a hot lead to sophisticated conspirators was instead quickly buried—by November 25, FBI memos made no more mention of tapes, only transcripts. The CIA has maintained to this day that the tapes were routinely recycled prior to the assassination, and no tapes were ever sent. But the evidence that the tapes did exist and were listened to is now overwhelming, and includes several FBI memos, a call from Hoover to LBJ which appears to have been suspiciously erased, and even the word of two Warren Commission staffers who say they listened to the tapes during their visit to Mexico City in April 1964!


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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
100. Joan Mellen's A Farewell to Justice on the Garrison trial of Clay Shaw
will be coming out soon. Much more will be revealed.

Mae Brussel exposed the biggest 'smoking gun' during the JFK coverup, that of Operation Paperclip where the White Russians in Dallas were doing a Rovian smearjob on Oswald...

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #100
106. KICK
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #106
120. Thanks, saigon68!
Much obliged, my friend!

Wow! That graphic is awesome and heartbreaking and true.

Here's something I hear people working on determing authenticity. If true, it's like a Rosetta Stone for Dallas. Unfortunately, it also may be something from one of Karl Rove's finest forgers:

Translation courtesy of DUer Merlin, one of DU's finest.

Complete Transcription:

United States Government

Date: March 3, 1964


To: Mr. James J. Rowley
Chief, U.S. Secret Service

From: Mr. John McCone
Director, Central Intelligence Agency

Re: Central Intelligence Report on the Assassination of John Kennedy

In response to the request made by your office on 24 February 1964 re: Lee Oswald's activities and assignments on behalf of this agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation, there follows a narrative summary of Internal subversive activities of the Oswald subject.

I recommend that unless the Commission makes a specific request for specific information contained herein, that this information not be volunteered. This agency has reason to assume that some junior Commission staff members may be potential sources of leaks to the news media or to other agencies; due to the highly sensitive nature of the enclosed material, it would certainly be in the national interest to withhold it at this time -- unless there is, of course, a specific request made.

It is my understanding that Mr. Hoover has certain sensitive information within his agency, which has been transferred to his personal files for safekeeping; he concurs that no material should be voluntarily given to the Commission which might affect the status of field operatives or their safety. He is particularly concerned about the DeBruey memorandum, which Central Intelligence has obtained and which, I understand, you have obtained. It is imperative that this information, at least for the time, remain under wraps.

Oswald subject was trained for this agency under cover of the Office of Naval Intelligence, for Soviet assignments. During preliminary training, in 1957, subject was active in aerial reconnaisance of mainland China and maintained a security clearance up to the "confidential" level. His military records during this period are open to your agency and I have directed they be forwarded to the Commission.

Subject received additional indoctrination at our own Camp Perry site from September 8 to October 17, 1958, and participated in a few relatively minor assignments until arrangements were made for his entry into the Soviet Union in September 1959. While in the Soviet Union, he was on special assignment in the area of Minsk. It would not be advantageous at this time to divulge the specifics of that assignment; however, if you wish this information it can

<<page 2>>

be made available for you personal inspection within the confines of our own offices. Or I can send it by courier on the condition that it not leave the custody of the courier. I am concerned that if this information were in any way disclosed to the wrong persons, it would lend the media to erroneously claim this agency, and perhaps others, were directly involved in the Dallas action. While the persons involved were in the employ of this agency, as well as the Federal Bureau of Investigation, it is virtually impossible for this or any agency to maintain full, 24-hour-a-day responsibility over its operatives.

At the time of the Dallas action, the Oswald subject was only ???? ?? in our employ; after the Soviet assignment, we found him to be unreliable and emotionally unstable. He was of little use to us after his marriage and De Bruey, from what I understand, concurs in this. He was provided with a few unimportant infiltration assignments and proved of little or no value.

It is possible that Oswald, given his instability, might have been involved in some operation concerning Hoffa, as noted in SAIC Bertran's report to your agency dated 1/3/64. Mr. Hoover advises that his agency is trying to determine whether Hoffa might have been involved laterally or vertically with the Dallas assassination. I have advised that I would be interested in seeing the results of that investigation.

Mr. Hoover advises that the facts given in SAIC Bertran's 1/3/64 report are basically correct; his agency has advised Deputy Sweatt against further unauthorized statements to the news media which might adversely affect the investigation. Mr. Hoover advises he has no knowledge of how Deputy Sweatt obtained his information, as there is no record of the agency distributin any such information to Sweatt or other member of the Dallas Sheriff's office. It is regrettable that this information has come to the attention of the news media, but I am sure Mr. Hoover will be able to clarify the situation.

Speculation within this agency - and this is only speculation at this point - is that the Oswald subject became unstable following surgery April 1, 1961, in the Minsk Hospital. He may have been chemically or electronically "controlled" ... a sleeper agent. Subject spent eleven days hospitalized for a "minor ailment" which should have required no more than three days hospitalization at the most. Six days after his release he met Marina Prusakova. This agency is particularly interested in her intelligence background, and I have requested a report on same from our Soviet Embassy contact.

After his return to the U.S., Oswald worked in New Orleans through the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean and Friends of Democratic Cuba; his case officer was SAIC Guy Bannister, from the Chicago FBI office. He was transferred from his assignments there after he was arrested and fined for an incident stemming from his distribution of pamphlets fo the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. While our files here sho no further assignments or contact, I am requesting an AN check on the subject from our New Orleans and Ft. Worth offices.

<<page 3>>

Please direct any further communications on this matter to my personal attention so that your requests may be expedited, or feel free to call me anytime. My office is always available to you.


John McCone

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #100
119. Thanks, EVDebs! Not many know of Poppy's connection to De Mohrenschildt.
I look forward to that book. Mae Brussell is a Saint.

In her life, she helped save The Republic.

And I mean that as a democrat and a Democrat.

From an old thread: Oswald was CIA: Official

The Baron's address book had contact info for Poppy and LHO
JFK Poppy Dallas Photox

Not many Americans know George Herbert Walker Bush was friends with George de Mohrenschildt, the only man known to have been friends with both Bush and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Perhaps one day the presstitutes will decide to perform their professional obligations and pick up on it, helping make America fast become a very different place. A place of Laws again.

Here’s a website that may be of interest. It's one of the most difficult sites to navigate on the web. It's worth the runaround, with a treasure trove of all things de Mohrenschildt, including letters written to Poppy and documents linking Kissinger to Poppy and de Mohrenschildt.

If the following still work, there's a photo from Dealey Plaza taken a few minutes after the assassination seeming to capture a tall, thin, patrician looking fellah with male pattern baldness and bearing a striking resemblance to the hunched figure of one George Herbert Walker Bush.

Let’s spread the word – in our virtual community and in the real world. Let’s SINK the BFEE!

Thanks, Eugene! Much obliged for you giving a damn!
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
121. The Art of Distraction
The Zapruder film and the debate stirred up about it is one of the finest examples:

On one side we have people saying that the Zapruder film shows a shot from the left rear is an entrance wound and Kennedy falls towards it, and they've done demonstrations to back their position up.

Then on the other side we have people saying that the shot was from the right front because he falls away from the shot and that the blood and bone spray is an exit wound and the spray of blood and bone backs their position up.

Then comes the counter arguments, the film was altered, or faked all together, which starts arguments, flame wars and etc.

And the simple thing is that gets lost in the middle is a simple fact:
Oswald's position was right rear.

See how easy it is?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #121
128. Never let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy.
Anyone who's ever shot anything -- and physicists with integrity -- know that when an object is struck by a bullet moving at 1,500 feet per second, the body will change direction along the line of flight of the bullet. Newton's laws of motion and all that.

The motorcycle policeman riding to the left and rear of the limousine was sprayed with blood and brain tissue. Then Jackie climbed onto the trunk, to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull and brain that flew back there after the bullet hit his head.

The president can be seen to suddenly jerk away from the explosion in the Zapruder film. It wasn't no "jet effect," Dr. Alvarez, no matter how ripe the melon or rubabarb.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-18-05 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
123. Well done thread, Octafish.
It sounds like you've read the "Texas Connection" by Craig Zirbel.

A great deal of what you've posted here are in his book in paperback, 1992.

The book is filled with facts and sources. One for now because it is late.

A caption below the photo of JFK's rocker being moved upside down on a padded dolly (to me, with total disreguard).....

"Within hours of the murder, Johnson ordered the removal of Pres. John F. Kennedy's symbolic rocking chair from the White House. It was shipped out through the side door unbeknownst to the mourners who stood watch."

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-19-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #123
134. Thanks, nomatrix! Sorry, haven't read that one...
... but I do appreciate the author and what his work represents. These turds and slugs are lower than whale dung. Here's the thing that bothers me the most of that day. LBJ disgustingly forced Jackie to watch him take the oath of office on Air Force One.

Afterward, LBJ turns to some Congressmen, who's winking at him.

The Wink*

*From Steamshovel Press #12: An example of the weird mix of brilliant
technical detail and lousy assassination history comes early in the book
when Trask interviews
White House photographer Cecil Stroughton about the swearing-in of
LBJ. Trask virtually pinpoints the exact frame in which Stroughton
switches from his Alpha to his Hasselblad camera. The images are
beautifully reproduced from the contact prints, save one that Trask
explains as being reproduced from a copy negative. This is the
"wink" photograph, a shot of LBJ receiving a wink from Congressman
Albert Thomas after the swearing-in, with all the onerous
implications it has in David Lifton's Best Evidence, where
the photo appeared in 1980. Trask supplies no reason why this
particular negative original is missing, no indication that he asked
Stoughton about it, no suggestion that he is even aware of its
controversy, despite references to Lifton in the same chapter.


Additional info here:

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