A thread that may unravel this Administration.

[wurzel]

This administration cheated its way into the WH. Lied us into a war. And could well have stolen the last election. Yet it all may be unravelled by a meanminded dirty trick.

I don't think for a moment Rove intended to out a CIA agent. All he had in mind was to plant the story in the press that Amb. Wilson merely went to Africa on an errand for his wife. Not much different to a husband stopping at the Wawa to get milk on the way home from work. And so discredit his "Africa" report.

But it has all blown up. And this tiny thread could unravel a administration that has lied, cheated, and plundered for over four years. Of course, if there was nothing to unravel, this thread wouldn't matter. Bush, Cheney, Rove et al are being revealed as the incompetant and corrupt liars they are. It may be that the people of this country have finally had enough.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. From your keyboard to god's ears........

[linazelle]

2. "I don't think for a moment Rove intended to out a CIA agent"...

Uhhh sorry. I don't buy that. Bush's brain knew what he was doing.

[Jade Fox]

5. I think the point was....

that's Rove's intention was to discredit Joe Wilson. :)

[wurzel]

9. Yes. The rest was unintended consequences.

Not that it doesn't make me very happy to see the trouble Rove is in.

[acmavm]

3. Rove found out Wilson's wife was a CIA operative and for revenge,

and as a warning to other people not to cross them, he outed her. Intentionally. He has a history of this shit. So does Novak.

Everything that fat dumpy bastard does is intentional. He had grandiose pictures in his head of that being his personal own 'horses head in a snitches bed' moment. (Think 'The Godfather I.)

[unblock]

7. if i can elaborate on the thought process...

i think what is perhaps meant is that outing a cia agent was not rove's primary mission, it was merely collateral damage to his goal of undermining and punishing mr. wilson. destroying valerie plame's career and getting her vital intelligence network killed off and undermining national security was besides the point to unka karl.

similarly in the 'horses head in a snitches bed' moment, their primary mission wasn't to kill a horse. it doesn't mean it wasn't on purpose, it only means that their focus was elsewhere.

[wurzel]

13. It was all very small minded. But it had huge consequences.

Which it wouldn't have had if not for everything else. It is a delicious irony.

[jsamuel]

15. there is no evidence to support or refute either side of the agruement

about what Rove "ment" to do. The only thing you can look at is motive. Would it have helped Rove's and the WH's case for war if Valerie Plame no longer had any authority over WMD's and terrorists' involvement in them?

There is at least some motive to distroy her career after she was making trouble for them.

[wurzel]

27. The overestimation of Rove helped legitimize the last election.

"Rove was so smart he won the election for Bush". Personally I think it was fraud.

[Son of California]

4. the wonderful thing is that

the more little lies that start to get pinned on Bush, the more that they start to cooberate each other.
The more that people believe that he's hiding something about Rove, the more they will believe he really did lie about Iraq/WMD and the stronger the push for investigations into every other dirty lie this administration has indulged in.

[wurzel]

10. Just like a "third rate burglary".

[KerryOn]

6. And lets not forget..

... about the real reasons for invading Iraq.
Haliberton no bid contracts, and Haliberton no bid contracts, and Haliberton no bid contracts.

I'm beggining to think that the only two companies in the world are Haliberton and WalMart.

[Al-CIAda]

17. PNAC n/t

[Gay Green]

19. And let us also not forget...

...that * wanted to prove to his dad that he's not a bum.

[Peace Patriot]

8. I don't think they are incompetent liars, exactly. I think they got what

they wanted in the Plame outing, which was to disable a 20+ year CIA WMD eyes and ears covert network, run by an experienced agent and WMD expert, so they could be freed of any honest monitoring for their own nefarious WMD activities. What they're lying about now is who's idea and order it was. And I think that's pretty clear. It was Cheney's. Rove is taking the fall (for which he will be pardoned and richly rewarded). I think the story that Rove did it for political revenge and to chill dissent--while certainly believable--may be a cover story.

I have never seen or heard of so much lying in any government, other than Stalin's and Hitler's. There is no precedent for it in our history. It's as if they get out of bed lying, lie all day, and go to bed at night and lie in their dreams. Congenital liars. The whole bunch of them and a number of their lapdogs in the news media and "pod people" in Congress, who just repeat, sometimes word for word, the lies they have been told. Every word that comes out of their mouths is a lie (or a mindless repeat of a lie they have been told). With almost every statement they make, you can reverse it and be close to the truth, if not dead on (with the exception of some twisted and Byzantine lies, like the one that it was Plame who sent Wilson to Niger--a double-whammy lie that got Cheney out of line of sight of treason, got Plame and her network outed, and sought to taint or discredit Wilson--which the lie does not do--when it was Plame who was the main target--or so I think.)

-------

The answer to the stink in Washington DC is restoring our right to vote, by throwing Bushite electronic voting machine companies--Diebold, ES&S and brethren--out of the election business NOW--or at the least achieving some measure of election transparency with paper ballot backups, no secret programming code and strict auditing. The only place where we can get that done is in state/local jurisdictions, where the authority over election systems still resides, and where ordinary people still have some say. See the DU Forum "2004 Election Results and Discussion" for information and action ideas:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203

[Zen Democrat]

11. Rove's claim to fame is that he always stays in the background

and leaves no footprints. Hahahahaha.

[Eloriel]

12. Of course Rove meant to out her

It was to intimidate Wilson and anyone else who DARED buck this administration with something as hurtful as truth and facts, and a willingness to speak them.

Don't EVER give these people the benefit of the doubt. Never.

[wurzel]

16. I just think Rove is a much smaller man than he is given credit for.

If so, considering what a criminal administration this is, it is totally ironic he should be nailed with something so petty.

[Al-CIAda]

18. Spot on, imo.

"It was to intimidate Wilson and anyone else who DARED buck this administration with something as hurtful as truth and facts, and a willingness to speak them.
Don't EVER give these people the benefit of the doubt. Never. "

[Generator]

14. Still makes no sense!

How does the fact that Wilson's wife work for the CIA discredit his report? Or the fact that..if true..she sent him there? IT makes no sense. It doesn't give credibility or take it away. As I pointed out-if she worked for Michael Moore or something..it would make sense. But the CIA? Explain. Where is the Valerie Plame out to get White house link? What does who is wife is have to do with it? It makes no sense.

It was just an errand for his wife..implying that she had an agenda? What does that mean? She had an agenda of finding the truth..as someone else pointed out in another thread-the CIA of truth and not taking over the world because they CAN.

Point 2: Rove knew exactly what he was doing. While I don't credit him with being the mastermind behind practically every fart and evil deed ever thought of by Bush and the neo-con's as so many here do, I know he doesn't bring up nuthing with out it having a point.

[wurzel]

20. Rove was planting a media story that Wilson's trip to Africa

was just an errand for his wife. Not a trip authorized by the Administration. I'm not saying Rove wouldn't have outed Plame if it suited him. But I don't think that was his intention.

To believe that Rove is such a master mind implies Bush really won his two elections. I don't believe it. It was pure State corruption and power over the national media.

[dogonarug]

31. That is the point...makes no sense

"How does the fact that Wilson's wife works for the CIA discredit his report"
It doesn't unless, you believe your thought screen and the administrations untenable position that a Husband/Wife team were out to politically ruin them.

How about...Wilson's trip/report was a setup to discredit/disable Plame's work. The story that Wilson and Plame were out to get the WH is possibly a cover for exposing Plame's network which would beg the question, how damaging was her work to the Administration that they felt they had to proceed with this risky expose and resulting cluster fuck.

The question now is, did rove have the security clearance to have access to the CIA NOC information that he passed to Cooper.
If not, rove committed no crime.
That classified information would have been illegally leaked to him and that act, of a cleared higher up passing classified information to a person NOT cleared to see it, IS the crime...which would mean rove is the distraction. It would also mean Fitzgerald is after a bigger fish and the media is spinning attention away from that particular fish.
Talking point that Plame was not covert is BS, there would be no Grand Jury at this point if she was not.

That Judy Miller may possess the hook that can catch that fish is delicious speculation...as is every scenario we can possibly construct.
Like a good spy novel, we won't find out till the final chapter...the conclusion of Fitzgerald's Grand Jury.

[stepnw1f]

21. Is This A Right Wing Talking Point....?

"Not much different to a husband stopping at the Wawa to get milk on the way home from work. And so discredit his "Africa" report."

[wurzel]

24. I think you missed the point.

Rove's intention was to humiliate Amb. Wilson by suggesting Wilson was only acting as his wife's errand boy when he went to Africa. And so discredit his report. I just don't think Rove is the genius everyone else does. I think he is basically a very small minded man.

[stepnw1f]

26. Sorry Friend...

Too trigger happy here.

;-)

[wurzel]

28. What really bothers me about Rove's reputation is

it help the press to "explain" how Bush "won" the last election. It got them off the hook on the fraud stories. It was all due to Rove's "Genius".

[stepnw1f]

29. That's Not Genius...

it's been done before by the Nazis and Cmmunists of two totalitarian governments. All they have is the power and money to afford the tools to begin a Propaganda machine. They monopolized the media years ago and have been on a crusade ever since the '90's.

[wurzel]

30. I know Genius. Genius was a friend of mine. Rove is no Genius.

Credit to Sen. Bensen.

[dogonarug]

32. kick

[Hello_Kitty]

22. I can see that

It's possible he wasn't even thinking about the gravity of what he was doing. To people as high up in the neo-con organization as he, everyone is just a pawn in their big game. CIA, FBI, military, whatever, the BFEE cabal thinks they own all these organizations and the people in them are at their disposal to do with whatever they see fit. It probably never occurred to Rove that he'd be facing charges for it, else he wouldn't have or would have at least been more careful. Or he would have had someone else leak to those reporters and ensured he wasn't connected in any way. I think he got sloppy.

These people are maniacal schemers but they are NOT geniuses. Sometimes people on this board give them far too much credit.

[wurzel]

25. Exactly.

[bribri16]

23. Bob, is that you? I agree with you. n/t