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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:52 PM
Original message
Say hello to a bottomless rage
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 12:56 PM by WilliamPitt
The cork is out of the bottle, and I am putting a few people on notice. You know who you are, you know what you did, and a good man has gone down in no small part because of you.

Throwing sand into the gears of the PayPal donations blew Andy off the surgery rotation, casusing him to have to wait a lot longer for his operation.

Spewing the claim time and again that the whole sickness was a fraud, very publicly and on as many blogs and boards as you could find, robbed Andy of the hope and will he needed to overcome this thing.

I think you fuckers should be forced to dig his grave. I think you should be buried with him.

I kept my mouth shut about you these last weeks because every time I said something about you or to you, you got a stiffy from the attention and ramped up your viciousness again. That's over with now.

I am going to make you famous in all the worst kinds of ways. I know your names, I know your addresses, I know your IP numbers, I have screen shots and copies of every vile statement and threat you ever made. I know everything I need to know. Get ready for the ram.

You are graveyard rats. I am going to grind you under my bootheel, scrape you off with a blade, and feed you to my cat.

One note to my fellow DUers: Leave off attacking the mods and admins at that "other" site. They were as disgusted by this as we were, but were hamstrung by the rules of their board which they take as seriously as the admins and mods here. They allowed me to post the documentary evidence over there, in no small part because they wanted the ugliness to stop. You may disagree with them, but they are good people.

They are not the ones who are on my list of things to do. Those on the list know who they are. Bad days are ahead for them. I promise.

We mourn for the next few days. We sing the songs of our friend.

And then we work.
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JRob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dispicable... Go get 'em Will, I'll help in any way possible.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. No shit
No. Fucking. Shit. :grr:
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Way to go, Will.
They should be ashamed.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
91. Yes, we're talking about some depraved behavior ...
trust me, I know. :( Their pack mentality spurs more vicious attacks, but this has gone too far!

Please let me know what I may do to be of service?

I want to help you pursue all legal channels to hold the responsible parties accountable.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
399. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #399
401. Surely you jest.
You shilling for these guys?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #401
417. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #417
423. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #399
421. With one "very important" difference ...
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 09:33 PM by ElectroPrincess
Our top 10 list is published and consists of both political and public figures, not of screen names for the expressed purpose of harassment. Their top 10 are of screen names of members registered here at DU. DU does not focus an entire forum here at DU to degrade INDIVIDUALS on specific MB.

Not comparable in the least. ;)
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. You ROCK!
Well said and yes, we will go after them. But first we mourn. Kicked and nominated!

:kick:
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Amen
Why bury them though? Even dirt is too good for them.

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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's a bad time for everyone
Do what you must Will.....
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OrlandoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Let me know how I can help.
I'm getting tired of all this "remain above the fray" bullshit. Time for some skinned knuckles.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Me too
I want to also help.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
48. Me too! Whatever it takes. Civil suits or criminal. Or Both.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #48
89. are you an attorney?
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jojo54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Will, I can't blame you for being enraged.
I'm sorry that you're so upset and even tho I didn't know Andy and his work that well, we all grieve for him.

On the other hand.....


GIVE 'EM HELL, KICK THEIR SORRY ASSES FROM HERE TO BUM FUCK-WHEREVER AND DON'T STOP 'TILL YOU'RE SATED.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ahh! I love a good bloodletting early in the afternoon!
Go get em Will!!
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nominated and kicking.
:kick:
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. ...
:thumbsup:
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Be our avenger, Will Pitt.
I'm just so frigging shell-shocked.

All I know is that in the coming months, we have to work on two issues: healthcare and election reform, and we'll have to pull together and blaze forward like we never have. But calling those pieces of shit to account should happen too.

We can't let them win. Not an option.

Let us know what we can do to join your posse, will.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. Amen!
We have work to do, but people need to held accountable. Most of us can multi-task. Hell, look at everything John Conyers does. He wears many hats well, and we can, too.
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liberalpress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
283. You're looking at this all wrong...
Working toward affordable healthcare for all Americans, and assuring no more elctions are stolen is hard, work.

Kicking the asses of a few shitheads sounds like a lot of fun!
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frictionlessO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Perps! The lot of them!!
Thanks for the fire in my belly WIll, I really really REALLY needed it right now.

Mourn and then ram!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. I love you Will.
And I will help you.
I found out yesterday when talking with our reporter friend in Seattle
that Andy never ONCE, uttered a word against certain people
who had hurt him deeply. He never told a soul in a public way,
or revealed the dark deeds to anyone who might make them
public knowledge.
He was noble and suffered it all in silence when a lesser person
would have sought to expose them in order to clear his name.
He said nothing.
I know, others know and it is time everyone knew.

BHN
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kicked
I have been away for work and missed all of this happen....But I mourn for Andy and know he is now at peace.

Zak
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. Can my cat have some too?
He probably wouldn't eat it, but it would be nice to offer him some. Please turn these turds into digital mincemeat.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. AMEN.
Go, Will, go!

If you need help, you know where to come. Right here! :yourock:
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. Wow -- You Are Deadly Serious
And it's good of you to exonerate the FR mods and admins. Glad that not everyone on the other side has sunk to that level.

The Paypal thing has to break laws of some kind. Political fighting is one thing. Playing with life and death is another. Go get em, Will, and please post if you need help of any kind.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. I wasn't talking about FR
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
62. OK, I Get Your Drift
That surprised me, too.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
407. Yes.
Be at peace Will. Kick their ass.
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. Not FR... "The Site Which Shall Not Be Named"
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
92. I call it The Sphincter because of a fortunate linguistic coincidence.
That two-letter word means "sphincter" in Portuguese. And not in a scientific, neutral fashion like the English word "sphincter". It's VERY offensive here.
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Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
95. Please name that site.
Because I don't know who you're talking about. Or, at the very least, give me phonetic clues.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #104
150. I got it, thanks.
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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #95
145. I call it "The twelve man circle jerk"
They only have something like 25 members.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #95
259. BTW "The Site that shall not be named"
That's OUR tagline here at DU for OUR website.
Not those disgusting tweaks at right wing fantasyland for toughkids.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. I know who these cowards are.
And the only thing between their @sses and the wrath of God was Andy.

Well, you bastards can't hurt him any more. And I have some time on my hands.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:15 PM
Original message
Rock ON!
Truly their time is coming.

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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
88. My time is open for this as well...
hiley
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
140. hiley
When even your gentle soul is outraged, you have to know justice must be done.

((((((((((((((((hiley))))))))))))))
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #140
185. They put Andy in his grave
Andy is the most sensitive soul ever and he could not take the vile attacks. I feel it was just simply to much for him...

The assholes still don't have enough decency or common sense to shut it down even now.
Justice must be served.
Beth,my love goes to all of you
Solidarity
Marilyn
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #185
305. And mine to you, to us all.
:grouphug:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. Peace, Will! And I don't mean, don't fight back.
I think you know what I mean.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
22. well at least the guys who run the" other site"
are on the up and up,even though a shit load of their people don`t understand what the hell black box voting is all about.
more important than all of this is that we carry on the work that was andy`s passion..."don`t mourn-organize!"
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. If you need anything. ANYTHING. Just contact me
I would love to see the fuckers pay.

You know where to find me bro
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bullshit on the mods and admins at that site
Whether or not they were disgusted, there is the LITERAL interpretation of the rules and the SPIRIT of the rules. Once the LITERAL interpretation of the rules actually CAUSES HARM, there is no excuse.

Furthermore, the particular forum on that site dedicated to disrupting this site literally invites and encourages the malice that was directed at Andy.

I have been on the phone with a friend who is one of the top 100 trial lawyers in the nation this morning.

I would like for you, Ben Burch and others who cached the particular pages to mail them to me so that my friend can determine if this was indeed actionable. As I recall, there was PLENTY of malice PROVABLE in the communications and I think Beth has actual names and addresses of people who contacted PAYPAL...if nothing else, I would love to see these people humbled. Once we determine if it is actionable, Andy's survivors can make an informed decision on whether they would wish to pursue it.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Thank you NSMA
Thank you so very much! :hug:

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. A-fucking-men
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Beware the Beast Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
60. I have no pity for the mods and admins over there.
They shed crocodile tears now, yet when all this was going on, willfully let posters run rampant in an attempt to make one man's last days even more miserable than they already were.

I stayed out of this for the most part, but when I learned that a select few actually devoted a great deal of time and money in order to make one man's life a living hell, I was appalled. Forget politics, they are miserable human beings, and they will get their reward.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. since many on that site are Christian, their rewards will be in hell
their behavior was inhuman.
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LondonReign2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #64
268. Since there is no such thing as hell
we need to make there remaining living time hell right here. Screw the post-death accounting, let's have some pre-death accounting for them.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
79. Just to run down a few facts re: mods and admin at that site
Another DU'er was sent a threatening message from one of their members when he posted on that site. The threatening message contained his address in it so he had no reasonto doubt those threats. THe OWNER of that site was made aware as I instructed the Du'er to send him a very specific message.

Then there was the shit when Mari's husband was killed.

Then there was the Andy thing and contacting Paypal.

Now they have a pinned thread concerning Bouncy Ball who should indeed be concerned since she's given enough info about where she lives and these nuts have proven it isn't about entertaining themselves but HARMING us.

The general rule concerning liability is that you knew or should have known.

A very general rule about cases concerning free speech or protected speech is that one is not protected in many states if they are part of a DELIBERATE SCHEME TO DISCREDIT.

So there you have it.

No..I vehemently disagree with Will's defense of these people. They are parties to the harm whether they have cajoled him into thinking otherwise or not.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #79
134. What happened with paypal?
I must have missed it, especially since I sent mine via snail mail the first time, and via Amazon - bless you, merh - the second time..
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:19 PM
Original message
They delayed cutting a check as a result of one of these pigs contacting
them and claiming the cause was fraudulent (I am paraphrasing the actual facts....others have the exact timeline)
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:27 PM
Original message
how long was the surgery delayed? Just curious.
There are some very cruel people in this world. I don't know how they can live with themselves.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #134
142. They delayed cutting a check as a result of one of these pigs contacting
them and claiming the cause was fraudulent (I am paraphrasing the actual facts....others have the exact timeline)
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #142
155. Thank you. That's lower than despicable
In this case, there should be a paper trail to identify the chain of events and that low life that did it.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #142
297. Is the other site a right winger deal?
I didn't realize that this had taken place. That is extremely scary.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #297
409. no.
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
358. I don't trust people on the Internet
I don't know what exactly is going on with Bouncy Ball but I have seen her vilified on CU.
Maybe you could tell me more, I am sure that there are some laws now about inter-state Internet stalking laws and I could look them up and try to help BB.

Dee
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
293. I felt pretty sickened when the accusatory strings were flying
I deliberately avoided the accusatory strings about Andy and his illness because I thought they were disgusting.

The few strings I did read were beyond the pale.

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:13 PM
Original message
I have to say
NSMA, you rock. :hug:
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
161. This is libel....and then some...
I'm not an attorney. However, it doesn't take a legal scholar to see that, at the very least, Andy was libeled.

From my law class---the 4 elements of libel.

1.) Publication--Was the information published (print, broadcast, etc)?
2.) Identification--Was the person named, or unmistakably identified?
3.) Defamation--Was the person defamed, harmed or ridiculed?
4.) Falsity--Is the information false?
5.) Fault--I don't think this applies to Andy. However, public figures must prove "fault." They must prove that the person knew that the information was false, but they published anyway--with malice. A public figure is defined as someone who interjects themselves into the public spotlight. Andy's situation did become public, but he didn't interject himself into the spotlight.

I think it's pretty clear that Andy was libeled.

Look at the Website--"Scamdy"--they've used his own name to create a new word that blatantly suggests that Andy is a "scam."

My gosh...how stupid are these people?

Makes me wish I was an attorney.

I've got my own plans for these people. I've got 15 years of media relations experience. From my previous job, I have a list of 1,500 media members---their names, addresses, phone numbers, fax numbers, emails and I even have personal notes that indicate how they like to rec'v story ideas, and the times of day they like to be called.

I also have a few reporters in mind--who might like this story. I placed a story with a reporter from one of the top national business magazines. She covers medical/high-tech/healthcare business stories.

I certainly won't do anything on my own. However, if anyone out there wants to work on a little project--when the time is right--I'm more than happy to contribute whatever I can. Let me know.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #161
169. You can't libel the dead
Andy may have had a cause of action during his life (though he was probably a public figure at that point). Any cause he had, sadly, dies with him.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #169
173. I understand you can't libel the dead...
I always understood that to mean---that a relative cannot sue for libel on a dead persons' behalf.

Once you die, libel is not an option.

However, Andy was libeled while he was alive. What about the things that were said about him and published while he WAS alive?

I'm not an attorney, so I don't know the answers to these questions.

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #173
178. Temporarily deleted
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:45 PM by theboss
I may have mis-spoken.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #161
287. Hi TwoSparkles
Let me know if I can help you in any way. :hug:

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
190. I believe it is actionable both as a tort *AND* as a criminal case
As for the tort, 'intentional interference with economic advantage' is the first theory that comes to mind. If I put my mind to it, I could come up with others.

And the criminal case would be the federal crime of interference with a person's civil rights. That's worth prison time, as we know.

There might be criminal options at the state level, as well.
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #190
210. It is actionable
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:13 PM by RummyTheDummy
The paper I work for settled a case out of court and the person libeled was deader than a fucking door nail. Initially thats what our corporate lawyers tried to claim, you can't libel the dead. But clearly they changed their minds for fear of going to court. This is a very large media conglomerate with money to burn. Don't think for a minute there is no window for litigation here. I saw it happen with my own eyes and it can happen again.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #210
228. I'm looking at Washington statutes now
Two questions:

1. Was that action started before the person's death?
2. Did the person have a surviving spouse?

I'm still trying to figure out how this can be done.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #228
235. actually I will tell you how
1.) yes...they deliberately started a campaign to have Paypal withhold funds by claiming the illness was fraudulent. The truth is ALWAYS a defense..so they don't have one.

2.) Technically yes there is a survivor...Andy's longtime partner, Termite...you may say that is not a survivor since the US does not recognize gay marriage...but if the case were filed in California (and it CAN BE since some of the acts may have occurred here.....then the Marvin v. Marvin case could apply as regards dependency since that palimony case did NOT distinguish as to gender...see...us gay folks can get divorced even if we cannot be married ;-)
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #235
239. No, I meant the court action
I think that an cause of action can survive if the plaintiff dies during the course of legal proceedings.. I'm not sure that anything outside a cause for wrongful death surives if he/she dies before the initial pleading. I'm still trying to determine that.

I don't go to court for a reason; I'm not very good at it.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #239
243. I was looking more at wrongful death than libel
I have teams of medical experts at my disposal. They all say unneccesary delays in treatment would medically probably hasten his demise thereby creating a condition wherein the acts were contributory..you still need survivors for a wrongful death claim

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #243
249. That would be a nifty job if you can pull it off
Is his mother still alive? Was she dependant on him for anything?

I did read some WA case law on that; the survivor needs to be a "dependant." And since he wasn't "legally" married or had children, it gets tough.

Damages also would be a trick to pull off since he was a seriously ill man to begin with.

The fun with the Internet, as you note, is that you can forum shop like mad. I still think Washington will ultimately be the state that this ends up with.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #249
258. I don't know if she was dependant on him
But as I said..in many states a gay partner IS considered a dependant for purposes of insurance and/or dissolution so a case can be made...furthermore Andy was not the only one libeled..Beth, his caretaker was as well..alhtough again, I am looking more at wrongful death.

The mortality rates for pancreatic cancer are not good, but even so..1) anything that hastens, aggravates or accelerates that demise may be considered contributory

2) Since the pancreas is a crucial part of the immune system, a delay in treatment compromises the immune system thereby rendering the results less optimal
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #258
279. Well, Andy's sister recently died, so Andy would have been a large
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 04:26 PM by SoCalDem
part of her "aid and comfort" as she aged..I don;t know if there are other living children, but if Mom is elderly and alone, she would have depended on the help of her son :(
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #279
296. Again..since in many states gay people can be divorced even if they
can't be married, I think there is a possible means to prove dependancy AND a survivor.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #258
345. In addition to the shameful delay in treatment
I would think that the vicious attacks against Andy caused unbearable stress. When a person who is already ill is subjected to the extreme kind of stress caused by these sub-human troublemakers, surely that contributed to Andy's death, as well.

This whole episode has been shocking and sickening. I will never understand the motivations of people like them. Andy was a beloved, gentle soul, who made a big difference in countless lives. I only knew him through DU, but he was an inspiration to me, and to so many others.

My heart goes out to his loved ones. There is nobody better in the world to avenge Andy than Will Pitt. Go get 'em, Will, for Andy.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
230. Never mind--but
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:40 PM by Capn Sunshine
"The site that shall not be named "
is NOT see You

That would be us. And I won't name it here. Beacuse I respect Skinner and Earl and Elad. They prefer I not.

I was thinking of putting it on our masthead

Please folks, don't be confused.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #230
237. I think you think we are referencing your site...we aren't
we are referencing another site..promise...and I think you know I love and respect you enough that had the acts occurred on your site, I would have dropped you a note....and I firmly believe you would have acted responsibly
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #237
244. yeah, I realized that. The confusion, my darling NSMA, resulted
from the use in the thread by a confused DUer of our trademarked registration pending catch phrase

"The Site that shall not be named"

I changed my reply above accordingly.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #244
248. I hear ya
I will always take any issues I may have with you directly to you ;-)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #230
266. Take it up with Pitt...he infringed on your servicemark
:evilgrin:
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #266
269. Pitt's a member
but you know those journalist types
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
337. Go get'em NSMA and Will and Ben Burch!
Burn'em!
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. May they rot in Hell!!!
I was so aghast at this atrocity that words failed me. Thank God you are doing something. I felt so damn helpless. This is a sad, sad day for all of us who loved and respected Andy, and it is horrifying to know that the actions of these idiots may have cost Andy his life.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. Go get 'em
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. Need some help. I can type and push the send button.
And I want to help fight the terrorists.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
30. Sign me up -- I'll join in the fight! nt
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. I share your rage
and as committed as you are. Thank you :thumbsup:

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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. Some people still don't live in reality.
They think that their actions on the site may not at all impact the real world.

Well, a few depraved people may have just led to the early death a good man who was quite needed here to help us with the good fight.

I was skeptical of donating only because other people were yelling "Fire!" In the end, though, like nearly all of us, we looked beyond the hate and mistrust and gave with our hearts. It was devastating to learn that because of the allegations, money and treatment were withheld to Andy...and now...

Well, wake the fuck up all you naysayers and miscreants, your actions may seem innocuous because of your anonymity, but the consequences are real. Andy's death proved that.

Give 'em hell, Will
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'm in
Anything I can do - I'm here. Just sayin'.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. If they had brains, they'd be afraid.
But evil and stupid as they are, they won't figure out the deep shit they are in until it happens. Dumb animals all.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'd like to see this as DU's first "action item" for us duactivists . . .
but they'll probably take the high road (dang it).

Anyway, add me to the list if there's anything I can do.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
163. I'll second that emotion
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:36 PM by Vincardog
We need to make this the first DU activist movement. Remember we have the power.

Where ever you are get up open the window and yell out it "We are mad as hell, and we are not going to take it any more."

Time for some a$$ kicking and name taking.

Then sign up to be a DU activist and let admin know what we are going to do.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. Get 'em
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Gemini Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. Exactly.
Thank-you for saying this.

Last night I couldn't sleep, because I was going over and over in my mind what they did. The misery they caused a good person. I hope they get what's coming to them. If there is any justice in life, they will.



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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
40. Please don't feed them to your cat
I love cats. Please feed your cat good nutritious non-poisonous food, and leave the stuff you scrape off your bootheel for the maggots. You know, "sweets for the sweet"...
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
41. Right fucking on. I hope they all get ball cancer.
Barring that, I hope they spend the rest of their days in jail or paying off legal bills. There isn't a hell hot enough for the perpetrators of these crimes.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. I've always been a big supporter of revenge
Make no apologies about it either. Revenge can be a very positive thing, and that's all I have to say about that.
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seshers Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
167. I'm in for revenge too...
Stolen elections, fraudulent wars, unchecked cooperate greed...

When is the time to smite those who support and perpetrate these criminal actions.

NOW WOULD BE NICE!

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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
220. Sometimes...
.... revenge is just the universe's way of manifesting karma.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:16 PM
Original message
"Two Cases of Bile" Thought you might find this article interesting.
Note where it was posted.

This was posted June 30th, and some of the FUreeks were still spewing their garbage.

The Internet saved Andy Stephenson's life. In May 2005, the voting-rights advocate's online community came together and raised $50,000 in 11 days to pay for surgery to treat Stephenson's pancreatic cancer. Now, the World Wide Web has spawned a bizarre campaign that accuses the nationally renowned activist of faking his illness.

Stephenson, 43, who could pass for talk-show host Conan O'Brien's brother, became active on voting-rights issues in 2004 when he learned about the security problems with electronic voting. A resident of North Seattle, Stephenson frequented the left-wing Web site Democratic Underground (www.democraticunderground.com ). This virtual community led him to Bev Harris of Black Box Voting (www.blackboxvoting.org ), a Renton-based, muckraking activist dedicated to exposing the flaws in our nation's voting infrastructure (see "Black Box Backlash," March 10, 2004).

Stephenson brought an in-your-face activism to what had been a sleepy topic—imagine a combination of ACT-UP and the League of Women Voters. He loved to go into elections officials' offices with his camcorder blazing, demanding information on obscure aspects of voting systems and software. In 2004, he ran for Washington Secretary of State as a Democrat against Republican incumbent Sam Reed, promising to clean up the election system, only to drop out before the filing deadline. That same year, he also began working with Harris on her national campaign to make voting more secure. In the process, he established his own national reputation as a voting-rights activist. Stephenson says eventually he and Harris had a falling out, and they are no longer on good terms.


None of these setbacks discouraged Stephenson from pursuing his goal of improving the nation's voting system. In January 2005, he went to Washington, D.C., as part of a grassroots lobbying effort on behalf of the Voting Integrity and Verification Act, sponsored by Republican Sen. John Ensign of Nevada. While in D.C., Stephenson became ill with what he assumed was food poisoning. He flew back to Seattle and noticed his skin had turned yellow. He went to the Country Doctor Community Health Clinic on Capitol Hill and received treatment from Karen Johnson, a nurse practitioner, who became his primary care provider.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1434439/posts

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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
147. Thank you for posting. A very fair and honest summary
and from the freeper site is really amazing. I hope that someone who posts there will thank the poster
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
264. I did not know Andy, but he was a lucky man
to have such good friends here at D.U., his time on earth was obviously well spent. I pray that the cause which he felt so passionate about honest voting reform passes quickly. As far as the freeps or whatever they are that interfered with the attempt to save Andy's life; they have diminished themselves to invisibility within his shadow.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #264
278. Welcome Uncle Joe. Don't think we've met here.
Love that man in your avatar. :hi:

Thanks for your kind/powerful words.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #278
281. Thank you for the welcome mzmolly, it is my pleasure to be here. n/t
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GeekMonkey Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. Can someone fill me in on the Andy story?
I'm kinda new and really have no idea what this is all about.

Kindly point me to a summary of the story.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
96. I'm probably not the most knowledgable person on this--but here's
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 01:46 PM by mistertrickster
how I understand it:

Andy was a West Coast activist investigating computerized voting. This new form of voting is obviously vulnerable to hacking, mischief, and it has no "paper trail" allowing for recounts--made to order for massive voter fraud. Further, the computerized voting machine industry is dominated by hard-right partisans.

Andy originally teamed up with the Bev Harris organization (Black Box Voting), but they had a falling out, and he went his own way.

When he got cancer, he had no health insurance. His only hope was a rare surgery in which Johns Hopkins specialized. They required 50 grand up-front before they would take him as a patient.

Thanks to internet contacts (DU being primary), he successfully raised this sum. I personally sent him a (small) check.

As this process played out, several disruptors emerged that sought to throw a wrench into Andy's appeals for help. They claimed that his cancer was phony and he was raising money fraudulantly for personal gain. These lies caused a huge hub-bub among web-site users who had no real world evidence one way or the other.

The admin here (to their undying credit) intervened and got to the truth of the matter, but it took awhile--hospital records are hard to get, etc. Meanwhile, the charges and counter-charges are flying recklessly and hysterically.

At least one disruptor went so far as to make a pledge to Pay-pal only so that he could claim "fraud" to Pay-pal administrators--they then were obligated to stop any payment of ALL Pay-pal funds.

This caused the delay in Andy's surgery and additional pain and suffering that WillPitt described above.

*****

Andy's spirit is re-united with the Great Tao. May he rest in peace.
We couldn't cure his cancer, but we know we did the right thing in helping him.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. Their treatment of Andy was beyond the pale
and truely despicable. If their actions were illegal, so much the better.

Go get 'em, Will!
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
45. There is a special place in hell for those "people." n/t
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. just give the word
and a lot of peeps here will be in your corner
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
47. Andy would be proud of you, Will. Get em, guy, and if you need
help let us all know.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
49. Wow - you're not messing around
Give 'em hell, Will.

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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. You know how to reach me, Will & Beth, if you need any help.
Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - Halt terror on America; begin by demanding Voter-Verified Paper Ballots.

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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
51. And the ones who called paypal and reported fraud...
which ended up delaying Andy's surgery by holding up the funds? Those plots and plans originated at two websites. That one and the one aka bev ran.

May they all live with the guilt of what they caused. It's too late for them to post a "RIP" thread and think that that will excuse their diabolical behavior. They'll pay. Either in this life or the next one. They'll pay.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #51
376. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
53. Right beside you (as much as possible online)
My heart is heavy today for Andy's friends and family, and those of us who only knew him through his posts here.

People should know who delayed Andy's surgery and why. Shining the light on disgraceful and inhumane behavior - they will be hiding like the roaches they are.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
54. I went to the scam site and had to vent some of my anger.
I saw a couple of other DU'ers as well. I told them if one of them was th eone who froze the PayPal funds i blamed them for his death.

Some of them STILL want proof! Some even questioned his death - saying he might have bought an island and faked his death. :wtf:

NONE of them showed any sympathy, remorse, or any vaguely human emotion. They were more concerned about defending themselves and their actions. Totally egocentric.

I told them I hoped none of them called themselves Christian.

I can't express my anger. Go, Will!
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #54
304. If I do a google am I going to be able to find the site in question?
I know no one wants to say what it is here... but I am really curious because this is just about the most vile thing that I have ever heard of and I would like to go there and throw in my two cents as well.
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
55. Will, you rock. I stand with you. I SAW IT... FIRST-HAND.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 01:37 PM by demodonkey
"Free Speech" has limits of human decency, and those were crossed long ago.

I saw first-hand the suffering it caused. And I do mean FIRST-HAND.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
56. I am with you Will.
Let me know if you need any help from a Texan.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:22 PM
Original message
I am not a religous person by any means.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 01:42 PM by im10ashus
Nor do I disparage those that believe. But this sounds fitting.

Ezekiel 25:17.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those
who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

I remember it more from Pulp Fiction than my bible school days.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
76. I like this quote too, very appropriate
I did not know Andy personally, but I am deeply saddened by his untimely death, and angry that some people could have said such horrible things about him.

I want to help, I can type and push the send button, too.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
57. Will, I'm right with you on this....
My heart is broken. I can barely think today at work. I'm the boss so I get-off easy but my mind is in a swirl. These evil souls will learn what Karma is all about!

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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. hey you
did you see the nice pictures on Ben's site? Some are from the OH meetup.

Here's to Andy! :toast:

:hug:
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. No, I'm at work and have
only time to pop in. I'll go now! Thanks.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
144. My condolences, liberalnurse.
I never met Andy, but my heart feels pretty sprained today. I don't even know how you managed to go to work. I had trouble getting to sleep last night and the bed still looks plenty inviting. I don't know how you managed to get up. It was probably the healthy thing to do, but I'm in awe.

I'm pretty much a skeptic, but let me send healing thoughts your way. I am so very sorry that Andy's Angels, his friends, his family are suffering. I am really and truly sorry.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #144
253. Thank you.....we are are wounded today.
I'm full of many good memories and then, on the other side, I'm almost speechless as I can't bring myself to post them yet...

I feel like waling!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
58. .
:applause:

Please let us know how we can help, Will.

:yourock:
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
59. I want to help you , Will!
I'm angry, too, about many things. Thier hate pollutes our country.

The lack of common decency among some and the true evilness of others shouldn't go unrewarded or unexposed.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
61. You know I will be useful in any way I can.
Just let me know.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
63. As Willie said
"Grand pappy told my pappy back in my day
Son a man had to answer for the wicked that he'd done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street
For all the people to see"

Metaphorically speaking....these people need to be hung out so the world can see their evil.
I'm with ya Will.
Get em.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
65. I had an Italian friend...
Who used to say, "I'm gonna fuck a motherfucker up!" Every time he said that when we went out there was a street brawl with me getting dragged into it.

Hang'em high Will. And if you need help PM me.
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
66. I really don't know what to say, but I support you.
:hug:
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. Count me in. Justice is past due.
:grr:
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
68. ...
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
308. Thank you Catwoman
I *get it* now.

I cannot believe this--I thought I had seen every low slimy thing possible, but then I see this.

Can't the contributors sue the individual for damages?

The intent of the donations was to get the man the treatment that he needed and apparently this low life scum deliberately thwarted their intent. Isn't that actionable?

I am speechless and enraged -- I didn't know this had taken place.

Anything I can do to investigate/ write letters etc count me in.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
69. Go get 'em. nt.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:30 PM
Original message
Right On Will !!! - I Currently Have A Lot Of Time On My Hands So...
let me know if there's anything I can do to help!

:mad: :nuke: :grr:
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
71. I know you have this thing about anger being a 'tool' sometimes, but...
I don't think this is one of those times. Think, Will. You don't have any real idea whether the things you described contributed to Andy's death. And do you think Andy wants you to spend your energy on revenge?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Not a tool. A gift.
And I know for a fact their actions were contributory.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #75
84. Right, a "gift". Sorry. But:
I have to ask: how do you know this for a fact? Have you spoken to Andy's surgeon, his doctor?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #75
87. A gift indeed.
We have a lot of documentation.

We need one attorney with a brain to give about 10 hours, maximum. Someone who would enjoy it.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. Lets go for it!
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 01:48 PM by katinmn
Have you asked oldleftylawyer what she thinks?
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. It's a she
:)
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #93
103. oops! fixed.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
105. Yes, briefly. But SHE gave me HER honest opinion
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:08 PM by sfexpat2000
so I have to wonder about her professionalism.

Bah da bing!

That was a joke, only a joke. No OLLs were impugned in this post. :)

/dingdang pronouns
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. LMAO!
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:04 PM by im10ashus
Even in the face of adversity, we manage to find some humor, and that is good. Laughter through tears is one of my my favorite emotions.

Edited for spelling.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Haha. So is it he or she?
I was corrected saying OLL was a male so I changed the reference to She. Now what?

I'm all confused. :silly:

Hey, first time I smiled since last night.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #112
121. I can't answer this on advice of counsel
:hi:
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Heehee! We're gonna get in trouble. You know it.
:hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. Too late!
:rofl:
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #130
158. BUSTED!
:rofl:
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #87
101. see my post upthread
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. I'm bookmarking. Did see it.
Thank you.

:hug:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
175. I've been racking my brain here
I'm not sure what kind of cause of action you can bring. Most of Andy's claims die with him. I think wrongful death is a real stretch.

Libel and tortious interfence of a contract were possibilities (though longshots) while he was alive. Now that he has passed, they go with him since no one else has standing. He wasn't married, right?

There's no kind of negligence action here.

Maybe a smarter attorney than I can come up with something.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
86. I do based on the fact pattern in the case
Andy was rehospitalized as a result of infection. The pancreas plays a HUGE part in the strength of the immune system in the body. Delaying medical care, probably DID further compromise his immune system which made him far less likely to battle attacks on his immune system postoperatively.

That then set in motion a parade of horribles culminating in Andy's demise. I think it would be very easy to get an expert to testify that that delay was, indeed, contributory...Andy did not have cancer of the pancreas (which is a death sentence) he had a tumor in the bile duct which has a fairly decent success rate if treated promptly.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #86
102. Not true - the diagnosis was anaplastic pancreatic cancer
Johns Hopkins Professor of Surgery and Oncology Dr. Charles Yeo released the following statement to Seattle Weekly Political Editor George Howland Jr. about Andy Stephenson: "The patient was diagnosed with undifferentiated anaplastic pancreatic carcinoma and underwent cholecystectomy and pylorus preserving pancreaticoduodenectomy, sometimes called the Whipple procedure"

http://www.andythanksyou.com /

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
117. Doesn't alter the basic premise of my post since the medical literature
demonstrates the mortality rate is drastically reduced by EARLY/ PROMPT treatment in both cases
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #117
127. I Think The Correction Was Due to That Being One of the Things Those
Scamdy trolls harped on.

Bile duct tumor VS pancreatic cancer.

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #117
135. true - the delay did not help him at all
not just physically but it was emotionally devastating for him too, as was the continued harrassment.

I corrected you, though, because the harrassers hang on every single thing we post here, and if there is the slightest discrepancy they blast it on all of their hate sights. If I had let your post stand uncorrected they would be proclaiming to the world that Andy never had pancreatic cancer etc etc - it's endless and we've been dealing with it for a long time.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. no worries..I appreciate having accurate info :)
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #117
322. It's a horrible disease with a very high mortality rate
I don't know much about what went on, but any cancer patient should never have delayed treament. Pancreatic cancer can grow like wildfire, and like many cancers, can spread quickly to other organs, making treatment very difficult if not impossible. So if those fuckers caused a delaying action they are fucking accountable on more than one level.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
118. Doesn't alter the basic premise of my post since the medical literature
demonstrates the mortality rate is drastically reduced by EARLY/ PROMPT treatment in both cases
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
73. Cool, but be careful and don't lose your head
Make sure this isn't gratuitous revenge, but well founded prosecution.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
74. that bottomless pit where the grapes of wrath are stored
I feel your anger deep in my bones.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
77. you write a beautiful rant, my friend.
go get 'em.
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ryan_cats Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
78. I don't know what to say
I don't know what to say, I'm truly shocked at his passing. The fact that people maliciously attacked him and delayed his surgery is truly evil.
May Andy rest in peace.
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Proud2BAmurkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
80. amen. nt
amen.
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
367. sorry but what does nt stand for again?
And as for this rant, go get em Will!! This kind of crime should not go unanswered, if indeed it is a crime. If justice isn't done in this world, good ole Karma will get them sometime.

Dee
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #367
402. nt means "no text" n/t
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Democracy White Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #402
408. Gah!!! I gotta remember that!!!
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Village Idiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
81. Hear, Hear!!!
I shudder to think of the fate of the next poor bastard who needs help from DU.

I would hope that many here (and, of course those at a couple of thoroughly despicable websites) will have learned their lesson...

...But I doubt it. Skepticism seems the order of the day, altruism is ignored and too often ridiculed...

Sigh.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
82. If you need help
let me know... ass wipes will pay for their inhumaity
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
83. Amen
and amen.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
85. Not a violent person... but
I would love to find a way to channel my rage at these vile pustules who spent their own money to libel and harass a dying man. by buying domain names etc.

Obviously the legal route is the way to go, but there is a special wing in hell for these scumbags. Having visited hastur.com (the site that shall remain unnamed) I am only more angry.
Crocodile tears indeed, paraphrasing:

"I never wished him harm" yeah but you all sat by idly and chuckled as your fellow morons libelled him mercilessly. Good to see that some in rightwingland finally recognize the vile hatred of their brethren and try to disavow it.

Let us know, I'm sure that others will throw down for this, financially or in any other way that we can.

These fuckers must pay.
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malmapus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
94. Give em hell Will
We all lost a good guy last night, and the fact that these people did what they did....give them hell.
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Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
97. Anything I can do to help, please let me know.
In this matter, I add my rage to yours.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
98. I love to punch them in the gut...........
the weeks of their vile postings and claims it sicken me. Go get them.
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PleadTheFirst Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
99. Give them hell, Will.
And let us know what we can do to help.
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bear425 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
100. Will, I was disgusted by their actions, too.
There's a special place in hell for those vile creatures who slandered Andy. ***They most definitely contributed to his death.*** If you can bury them with your evidence, I say do it. Let me know if I can help.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
106. After the shock of hearing Andy wasn't expected to
make it through the night, after feeling incredible sadness at it all, I thought of those bastards. And I think I'm being nice in just using the word "bastards."

If they had one ounce of a conscious, they'd be feeling pretty damn shitty right about now.

But they lack a sense of shame, a sense of right and wrong, so I doubt they are.

They are truly nasty, evil people. I hate to say that about any human being, but look who they worship--the evil one himself, Chimpy McCokespoon, "troubler of the poor world's peace...."

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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
107. kick. nt
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
108. Nominated and kick
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
109. I was waiting for someone to make a post like this, so I could respond
to this entire situation. I have to admit, other than normal, human compassion, I don't know Andy from anyone else, and I didn't donate to his cause, and I would have never thought bad of anyone who didn't choose to, AND recognized the graciousness of those who did.

However, when the speculative shit started to hit the fan -- I asked myself? What gall did that man have? Does not everyone here have problems? Do people not have health insurance, all over America? Do people who don't own houses in a nice Seattle neighborhood die in the streets, everyday, from all kinds of horrible diseases?

I believe in humility, and being humble, to me, is not PRing your self, all over the web, for donations for surgery. I realize that it was a feel-good cause, and it could have very well saved this man's life, if done in a timely, orderly fashion -- without detractors.

I agree with you, Will, that the detractors were mean and disgusting, and should die like pigs in hell. There's no reason to intentionally derail something like this, but at the same time, I, tempted to donate, asked myself OVER and OVER. Why Andy?

Andy has(d) a house, and the Internet, and a car, and a partner. That's a hell of a lot more than a lot of other people have. Maybe some of this angry energy should be focused on something else, rather than getting so wrapped up in avenging this man's death -- particularly when there's much more work to be done.

I'm sorry. And I'm sure this will garner more attention than I want. Maybe someone even said it before. I am sorry about this man's death, and didn't want to say anything -- but if this is where the rhetoric is going, anyway, I feel better saying it.

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. wow, odd statement
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:03 PM by katinmn
"PRing your self, all over the web, for donations for surgery"

Very out of place, too. Most innappropriate here and now, especially, IMO.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #113
131. I don't think there's anything wrong with donating
I guess, when you have resources, I just have a problem with going all over and asking for money. $50,000 is a lot of money, and people have said that he had assets totalling much more than that (though, I have not personally confirmed this). It's more of a rhetorical question, I guess. Something just bugging me, a little.

Like I said, I wouldn't have put this in any of the Andy tribute threads, or anything. I figure this is a vainglorious thread, anyway, so might as well just post what a normal person, who isn't a freeper, IS caring and responsible, and confused about this whole thing, might be.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #131
141. Are you into self-flagellation and degradation?
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:23 PM by katinmn
Have fun.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #131
205. "when you have resources [you shouldn't] ask for money"
That's a very Capitalist idea, that is, that a person should have to beggar themselves when they suddenly find themselves up against a massive medical emergency; that it isn't okay for them to say they're in trouble, or to accept with gratitude whatever monies the community feels like giving.

That idea doesn't make sense to me, but then I'm a socialist and in favor of socialising the cost of medical care. Which is what happened here, in a tiny way.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #131
223. I don't think any "normal person" would be confused about this.
Andy made a lot of friends here. Why? Because he was a sweet, charming, intelligent, hilarious person and activist. I loved his posts and came to look up to him: I wanted to be as good an activist as he was.

His friends wanted him to have the surgery. And some people who didn't know him were moved by the story and wanted to help. I don't think most "normal people" do a little calculus when called upon to help someone else out. "Hmmm... Andy's going to have an enormously expensive surgery, he's a great guy and great activist, but he does have a house, so maybe there's someone else out there MORE DESERVING I could send my ten bucks to..."

People want to do good things. What's so confusing??
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Vadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #131
365. The thing is that Andy didn't ask for money for his surgery! We ...
at DU who love him started the paypal account so that those of us who were able to donate to Andy to save his life were very happy to do so! If you don't have a job and you don't have insurance, you don't sell your house, if you can help it, since that is your only anchor from the bankruptcy police.

We love Andy because he was working for us to prove that all of our elections, since 2000, were stolen by the right wing Christofascists who own the voting machines. If we don't get rid of those voting machines owned only by the Bush contributors, we will NEVER again have a democracy, which includes both Democrats and Republicans and Independents.

God love you, Andy! Tell my Barry that I love him!




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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #131
386. .
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #113
291. self-delete
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 05:20 PM by datasuspect
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. I always got the impression it was his friends
who were asking on his behalf, but I wasn't following it too closely in the beginning, so what do I know?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #114
208. that's exactly right
his friends initiated the fundraiser after Andy got accepted at JH but learned he would have to come up with the $$ right away
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #208
406. please get this straight..Andy never asked for anything!
it was the kindness of some of his friends who decided to help him..after all isn't that what we humans are supposed to do ..help our friends?? i know thats a lost concept for some these days..
at the same time so many were pouring their love and money into helping Andy, my husband was flying cross country to st louis to help a family with a child with cancer for a fund raiser..so should they have not done a golf tournament to help their child?? and they had health insurance..should people have witheld helping them since .. why their child?? since others don't have insurance or a home??

when do we as americans and humans not throw caution to the wind and put our hearts ahead of our somewhat thwarted opinions...and just help another human for the sake of simply helping someone we care about and respect, and in some cases love??

do we need a book for that..or certain rules to guard ourselves from maybe getting more out of giving than taking..or thinking to damn hard about giving for the sake of caring and just giving a damn about someone else???

i give because i can..nothing more nothing less..because i am human , and i like giving to others so they can have hope ..so they can get a few more days..so they can feel loved, there are many reasons to give..there is no litmus test to it..you give because you damn well want to..i wish i could go back to the days in this country when one gave because it was the good thing to do..instead of having to explain to others how to be a human being!

you are entitled to your opinion, and i do not judge others opinions, or i try not to,but may i suggest you take a long look at your humanity while you evaluate your opinion..

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #114
342. That's correct
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 06:53 PM by tavalon
Andy never asked.

Edited to add: But he did thank as many people as he could, personally, until his strength ran out.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. "I feel better saying it." - so glad YOU feel better...
pity - how small your world must be.

"Why Andy?" - why not?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #109
123. It will garner more attention for the lapses in logic than anything
Please elaborate on how Andy taking any and all steps necessary to save his life lacked humility?

Please elaborate on how Andy having more than others is anything other than a non-sequitur?

I think you will be getting the attention and scrutiny you deserve.


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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #109
125. Well, that's what's important.
You feeling better.

Perhaps he should have just withered and died as a means of showing the kind of righteousness you seem to hold claim to. To wit: He should die because other people have less.

Why Andy? Because he was my friend. Because he got more done in his short time on earth in the name of good than mopst puddings walking the planet get done in their whole lives. Because he was a patriot. But mostly, because he was my friend.

You believe in humility, and being humble. Practice what you preach and save the self-righteous speculation as to why Andy might not have wanted to die, and why we wanted him to live.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #125
138. Will, I know why he wouldn't have wanted to die.
I understand the gravity of cancer, and the seriousness. I want to know why I couldn't press the paypal button. It is not lack of compassion, on my part. I understand his friends rallying for him. If that's all it was, and it was a "friend" thing, then fine.

Perhaps, a more personal explanation would be permissible. I had a friend -- in Seattle, no less -- with no health insurance, who got cancer, because he couldn't have regular check-ups. He was an upstanding person, and my friend, and did a lot for people. He had nothing. And he died with nothing.

In my hometown, recently, there was a flyer for a kid, who has cancer, and his parents rent a trailer. He was just a little guy. They were taking donations for some procedure to help him.

I'm not trying to say anything -- I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry for you, and I'm sorry for Andy, and his family. This question goes a bit beyond that, though.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #138
146. How about this
Your friend did not have a group of people who could effectively raise enough money to attempt to save his life. Neither did the boy on the flyer.

Andy had such friends. Perhaps, just perhaps, you should focus on the positive aspect of this - that there was one man who had friends who tried to save him.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #146
159. OK, Will
I'm sorry for your loss. Maybe you're right.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #138
172. You're trying to say you couldn't donate because you judged Andy
and now you are trying to purge your guilt and pretend everyone else is screwed up.

No worries....
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #172
183. I never said that, and you know that
I had nothing about which to judge him. The question of the potential resources is just unsettling to me. If it is true, that he had more resources, I don't feel guilt. If I walked down and donated $50 to an organization that feeds children, I would do more good than donating $50 to a well-off individual. Maybe that's what I'll do, to square this all away. I'll donate money to a children's cause, in Andy's name.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #125
218. Emotions are good, Will, at times
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 04:13 PM by theboss
The web is fine for emotional outbursts, but here they touched real life. Maybe keeping your emotions in check would be a good thing. You lost your head early in this story, posted a huge rant, and probably caused Andy more trouble than anyone else at this site.

Now, you've gone flying off the handle in the other direction. And I'm not sure that does anything good for Andy's memory either. And getting mad at another DUer's legitimate - if possibly untimely - questions don't help him either. Especially when those questions echo what you yourself once asked.

I still think a lot of this could be have been avoided if a lot of people took deep breaths at the beginning and asked for help.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #218
262. You make some good points.
None of this is black and white as many would like it to be. We are all human and we all make mistakes perhaps even some well meaning DUers. This was a complicated situation. People should be slow to judge without all the facts.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #218
295. Your posts miss some very important facts.
This was a fund raiser conducted for Andy by friends that found out he was in need of the money to have surgery to remove a cancerous tumor from his pancreas. It was an effort of love.

It was done while Andy was ill, very ill, and it was done in a very short time span. Could it have been done better? Yes, anything done by humans can be improved upon given we are not perfect creatures.

The errors did not detract from the basic fact that Andy was ill, needed surgery and needed the money to have that surgery.

I don't recall receiving ANY pmails from ANYONE doubting the facts or questioning any aspect of the fundraising or Andy's needs. Go read the threads and you will see that DUers came together and joined to help a friend. What we did for Andy was remarkable and it scares the hell out of others. If we can do this for a sick friend, imagine what we can do for our candidates.

That you don't like all aspects of the fund raising or that mistakes were made does not justify the personal attacks on a dying man or his friends. That you can continue to post to the effect that we are responsible for their hate is wrong and your positions are without justification or reason.



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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #109
133. So if Andy didn't have a car and house you'd be ok with it?
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:15 PM by chimpsrsmarter
"Feel good cause"? Do you resent the attention paid to someone with cancer?
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #133
149. Honestly? Probably.
That's the answer to the first question.

And, I don't resent the attention paid to someone with cancer. That doesn't make any sense? Are you asking me if I wish I had cancer, so I could get some attention? My mother just had this disease, and one of my best friends just had a cancerous tumor removed. If you see, in my above post, I had another friend, who died.

People who are sick should have attention paid to them. But this was an all-out, netwide fundraiser for a person who had resources. Maybe that's it. Maybe I've just said why I was having a hard time with this.

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #149
154. Quote: "That doesn't make any sense? "
I do see where you are coming from now.

It's about the overwhelming attention and the love directed at Andy. It is a wonderful thing and I hope you can come to feel the same some day. There's lots of love to go around.

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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #149
157. "His resources" obvioulsy didn't cover the treatment he needed
and by your own post is sure seems that you resent the attention he got.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. I don't understand that, at all
It's not about resenting attention. I don't care about any of that. I can ask "why did one person get such attention," without it having anything to do with me. I digressed, above, and will here.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #160
165. it's about resenting something and damned if i can figure it out
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #160
177. well, his death should put the question to rest for you
and since you are speculating while his friends here are grieving, i'm sure you can understand why that's inappropriate.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #177
186. This is not a grieving thread
this thread is about revenge, righteousness and zeal.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #186
195. that's doesn't justify what you are doing
and i do believe anger is a part of the grief process. perhaps that explains your behavior.
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #186
250. You can not judge how one chooses to express grief
Some of us cry and clutch mementos to our breasts. Some of us get angry for what has been and what could have or should have been. Some of us cry for the loss of that persons life while others cry for the loss of that person from our life. Some of us do all these things, in our own time.

You can not presume what is an expression of grief for someone else. Your post here, IMHO, was crass and unthinking. Presented as a hypothetical, perhaps it might have been given a serious lookie-loo. Presented in a thread about someone that many, many of us have just begun the process of sorting out our feelings about a man that we loved is opportunistic and shallow.

Heaven forbid you should ever find yourself in a similar situation with as little a dime in your pocket. What would you do then?

I donated to Andy and would do it again. Did he have more assets than I do, probably. But, as I said then and still believe now... I am trying to hold on to a lifestyle while Andy was trying to hold on to his life. I could do without (fill in a personal secret pleasure here that aids in the enjoyment of my life but is not necessary for my survival) to see that he be given every chance to be here next week, next month, or next year. I live paycheck to paycheck, fighting off one wolf at the door at a time, but I would be less of a human, less deserving of the space I take up and the resources I use had I turned a blind eye to someone in crisis, as Andy obviously was.

Andy sacrificed much for our democracy and in doing such, for me. It was the least I could do for his humanity. I didn't know Andy personally, but I grieve his loss all the same. I feel for his family and especially for Termite, who will be left to pick up the pieces of what is left of his life alone. Perhaps instead of getting our help, he should have just made sure that Termite had to bear that burden, both financially as well as emotionally, alone. Or perhaps we should have left his mother, who had recently lost another child, to bear these burdens alone as well. Yeah, that would have been the compassionate thing to do.

I am sure Andy's family will be comforted by this thread now. So glad YOU feel better.

</end rant>
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #160
348. So, are you saying that if he sold his house and his car
and left his longterm partner with no house or transportation, then you would have felt okay donating?

We did what we did out of love and caring and it had nothing to do with Andy's checkbook, which, I suspect had little in it, since he was an activist and activists rarely have much money at all. But, I, for one, never asked and don't give a fuck. I gave what I could and I gave freely.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #149
226. It happens all the time - benefits and fundraisers for people who are ill
I am invited to one this weekend - should I ask to see her tax returns before I buy a ticket?

==============

the first ever
COLON AWAY party...
a Benefit for >name redacted for obvious reasons<

THIS SUNDAY,
JULY 10th,
8pm
at THE SLIPPER ROOM
suggested donation $15
*****The Slipper Room REQUIRES Government Issued Photo ID For Entry*****

>name redacted< was diagnosed with colon cancer and
will be saying good-bye to her colon in August.
Being fabulous herself, Miss >name redacted< decided the best way
to get rid of her abusive colon was give it a party like no other.

STARRING:
AXIS DANZ
LITTLE BROOKLYN OF STARSHINE BURLESQUE
DA LIPSTIXX
GO-GO GIRL JEN & GO-GO BOY OLIVER
ERIN AND HER CELLO
with comedian ERIN FOLEY as your Master of Ceremonies

MUSIC PROVIDED BY:
DJ DECKER
MP3J TIMMY

RAFFLE PRIZES TO INCLUDE:
Yankee, Mets Tickets and MORE
SPECIAL SILENT AUCTION TO INCLUDE:
candid photos of the cast of "Sex and the City,"
Elton John, Gwen Stefani, Paris Hilton, & More!

****************************************************
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #226
254. that's amazing !
If I ever have to deal with anything as horrifying as colon cancer, I hope I can face it with such humor and energy as this person.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #254
280. I don't know her - my friend is performing -
but I take it she is a fabulous downtown diva
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #149
306. He had cancer - what the hell?
Do you think one of the premiere surgeons at Johns Hopkins would have operated on him and performed the Whipple on him if he didn't have cancer.

Cancer killed him. You need to stop visiting those bad sites. They will make you believe falsehoods and lies.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #109
139. How can you make such assumptions?
How do you know what you state is true, what are your facts? I believe your assumptions about what Andy had available to him and the state of his wealth are just assumptions. And you do know what they say about ass umptions, don't you? :freak:

You do seem mighty familiar with details of Andy's life. How odd.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #139
164. People were angry when they thought he was not being honest
I did some research. Maybe all my facts are wrong. If so, I'm wrong.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #164
187. He was honest, he was honestly sick with cancer and afraid to
die.

The fund raising was conducted by his FRIENDS - he was too sick to worry about it. Folks don't know how sick he was before the surgery because he stayed active and posted cute little comments when he could. Because he cooked a meal for the sweet lady that let him stay at her home and he fixed her shower.

You did research? What research pray tell? Was it at those other sites, because that is the crap they spew while neglecting to prove it, they have no back up to support it.

And how could you have that moral dilemna about the paypal donation, about clicking that button, if those sites with all of their twisted truths and distortions didn't crop up until they were so ate up with jealousy that they couldn't stand what had been done for one of our own, after the fund raising? How did you know to do the research about Andy's so called "possessions"?

Your facts are wrong.







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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #187
191. Well, can I ask one question?
Did he have a house, in Seattle, that he could have liquidated, and a car?

I did not want to get into specifics, but, as long as you're telling me that I'm wrong, I want to be sure that I'm wrong about what I might be wrong about.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #191
197. I don't know the answer to that.
But, are you saying that Andy should have gone homeless to get healthcare?

The slimers claim he lived in a mansion. Do you smell a lie here?

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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #197
201. No one should have to go homeless to get healthcare
Liquidating a house in Seattle, would not make one homeless, by any stretch of the imagination, mansion or no mansion. And, for the record, I'm smart enough to realize that he probably didn't live in a mansion. Just remember, a 2-bedroom Craftsman in Fremont would probably sell for a half a million dollars.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #201
204. The equity wasn't there.
*sigh*

If anyone really realized how HARD it was to get any hospital to take Andy's case on, as a cash paying patient AND then to try to raise the funds, they'd know to their toes NO ONE would ever do it if they didn't absolutely have to.

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NC Beach Girl Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #201
260. what?
How was a guy who was fighting cancer supposed to deal with the hassle of "liquidating" his house? Would it sell instantly? At the least it's a 30 day process and that's when someone buys it the second you put it on the market...in the meantime, let's hope that there was actually equity and not just a huge mortgage going on.

Oh..but everyone who owns a house actually "owns" it outright, right?

Selling a house is commonly known as one of the most stressful things that you can go through, and I speak from experience here..but you think it was OK for a very sick person to jump into that process.

This is ridiculous reasoning ..maybe you should stop criticizing the actions of a man who was fighting cancer and who was lucky enough to have a large group of friends come to his aid to help him because we were all so grateful for the work he had been doing to fight for fair voting practices.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #201
288. Have you ever dealt with that?
He had a few resources, and your claim is that he needed to use all of them to hang onto life, not leaving anything behind for anyone he loved or leaving anything left over to live on. That's crazy!

Btw, selling a house and not being able to buy a new one, seeing as you need all the profits on it for healthcare, would leave someone homeless.

Frankly, I don't think my donations to people need to be vetted by a CPA. If someone asks for money, often they need it. He wasn't some televangelist or crazy TV guy asking for money--he was a very, very sick man facing death. I may be rather new here, but I gave because he needed it. I was suprised it wasn't more than $50K, actually.

Question: do you give to panhandlers on the street, or are you worried they'll spend your money that you just gave to them "incorrectly"? What if they're not really poor? What if they actually have some resources? Why do you care?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #191
207. You know, I didn't ask him about the house he lived in.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:08 PM by merh
Was it his or did the man he loved own it? Was the home Andy's or termites? Was the car Andy's or termite's?? I don't know. Do you? You are the one claiming to do the research.

I had a friend that had no money to pay for his surgery, the surgery necessary to save his life. I didn't want him to die, so I helped raise the funds. I didn't ask him to show me the deeds to the house he lives in, the registration for the car he drives, the statements from his bank. I took his fears and concerns as legitimate and the money I gave to him were my gifts to my friend. The time I spent assisting in the fund raising were my gifts to my friend.

It is so said that you have lost the ability to live by faith or how to trust people. It must be very hard being so cynical. Envy of what was done for Andy has fueled the hate fest. I pray the envious ones and those that "wonder why Andy deserved the money" will find peace and forgiveness.

On the last day, Jesus will say to those on His right hand,

"Come, enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me." Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, "Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me drink, I was sick and you did not visit me." These will ask Him, "When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?" And Jesus will answer them,

"Whatever you neglected to do unto one of the least of these, you neglected to do unto me!"
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #191
424. What's it to you anyway?
So people donated money to a cause they believed in. What's it to you? It's their fucking money. It's not yours. Its theirs. Fuck your "research" and fuck you.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #191
426. you are wrong..
andys partner has a home, a very small home in seattle..and the rest is none of your damn business, nor anyone elses..like i posted above ..when we were doing the fund raising for andy my husband flew across country to a charity golf tournement for a child with cancer, those people had a big expensive home and could afford to do a celebrity golf tournament for funds for their insured child with cancer..so are you saying.. andy with no home , his partner has a home..did not qualify for his friends doing a fund raiser on his behalf because we did not do it at a country club?

well see darlin if andy had had the time i could have invited you to my husbands country club and made you feel better about our fundraising on andy's behalf..i could have even bought you a drink..but i may have wanted you to choke on it first!

darlin people give to others for all sorts of reasons..most of all being human..

may i suggest you go to the country club and have the pro dust off your humanity??

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Vadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #164
373. The only ANGRY people were the ones from FR and Scamdy.com...
Perhaps you are also from one of those sites????? I don't appreciate your questioning those of us who love Andy and wanted to donate to try to save his life! What is it to you, whether we donated or not, to Andy????

If you don't like it, get the hell off our DU and get over to FR where you belong!



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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #373
392. Oh (replace this with any number of expletives) you.
That's exactly what you don't want -- is for anyone to question the fact that a bunch of people used channels that OTHER PEOPLE PAY FOR to solicit donations, for someone who's been raised to cult status, on a message board, when people have problems, every day -- with a FUCK OF A LOT LESS.

I've tried to be nice about this -- even if it is "inappropriate," timing. Andy's Crusade didn't just impact Andy and his friends, or the people who donated. It impacted perfectly well-meaning people who visit this site, and had to go through the fucking drama (which is still continuing), when other DARE I SAY IT more important things are going on, in the world -- and people who are JUST as deserving as Andy die, everyday.

It's tragic that he died, and it's tragic that cancer has to happen to anyone. But, everyone's got friends, pally-o, and everyone has problems.

You talk to me like that, and you're going to get it right back. I've been civil. You are not going to call me a freeper, because I question what happened. You're not going to shut down discourse, like the fucking freepers, because something is being said that "you don't like."

I've gotten several PMs and e-mails (from members who have been here from sometime -- not newbies) from people who support the questions I'm asking, but are too scared to say anything, because of responses, like yours. They know they'll just get jumped on.

I said it, because it bothered my conscience. You can think whatever the fuck you want about me, but it seemed crass, to me, to be asked, as activists, Democrats and DU Members, to "digging deep in our pockets," for a cause celebre of some outspoken people, on this site. Especially when the person in question MAY have had plenty of resources at his/her fingertips.

I'm sorry, but that's it. Out on the fucking table.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #392
432. excuse me but..
you did not ..."digging deep in our pockets,"

you did not dig into my pockets nor did anyone..and you obviously did not dig into your pocket..so whats your problem?? did any one make you click onto the threads where the fund raising went on??

did they?? did someone put a gun to your head or anyones head and make them donate??

no...

emphatically no!

so please spare your "digging deep in our pockets,"

your pockets are the same as they were when Andy was needing the surgery others of us felt like we wanted to help him with!

spare us you moral dilemma!

p.s...i sleep well at night having given to help someone in need!
and having given someone hope and a month longer in their life.
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #109
148. I Doubt You're Going to Endear Yourself To Anyone With That Sentiment
It amazes me that you've "been waiting for someone to make a post like this" so that you could respond by ironically musing that a man who breathed his last not even 18 hours ago lacked humility so that YOU can feel better.

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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. I'm not trying to endear myself to anyone
And I do feel sorry, about his death. That's why I did not put it in an "Andy" thread, but a thread full of accusations, calls for revenge and whatnot. I don't believe the death of someone needs to cut out all rational discussion of the situation. I agree with Will, and others, that the full-on assault campaign, against Andy, was ridiculous. But maybe, there's something to learn, here. I didn't feel morally right, giving to Andy. That, as a basis for other concerns, is true, despite his demise. People here have said a lot worse things -- including his friends.
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #151
166. Well Thank You For Sharing
We are all so glad that you have chosen, in the first hours after Andy's passing, to let us all know that you didn't feel morally right contributing to the efforts to help him. Bully for you.

I don't think there's anything wrong with people who may have had reservations about donating, especially with all the accusations flying around courtesy of the goat-fucking vats of steaming shit that this thread is referring to, but why someone would want to announce how they opposed donating to the medical fund of a guy who just passed away a few hours ago totally baffles me.

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #166
184. More of life's unanswered mysteries., GiovanniC....
Why does the rare person become jealous of an outpouring of love and respect for another?

Why does the rare person want to stick it to someone's memory using carefully placed innuendo?

Thankfully they ARE rare.

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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #184
188. Why do people jump to conclusions as a defense?
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #188
192. Did you see yourself in my post?
That's great. Recognition is the first step toward recovery.


See ya.
:hi:
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #188
193. There's no other conclusion to be reached
What possible reason could you have for objecting to Andy's friends helping him out when he was sick? The only answer I can imagine is envy.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #193
198. And the only reason that I want to help poor people
is because I am one, and I'm jealous of the rich...

And the only reason that I want to protect gay rights, is because I'm gay...

The only reason that I want to protect abortion, is because I'm an abortion-loving fool...

Right?

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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #151
234. There *was* something to learn, and this is what I learned.
I made a very small donation ($10.00 or so) to a cause that I felt was right at the time. Could I have been bilked? Sure. Do I think I was? Nah. Does it matter? Not a bit.

My small donation probably only bought a bandage or a package of Jello for when he was hospitalized, but I spend more than $10 getting my nails done. I harmed no one in my family by making this donation (we all still ate), and it gave me a moment's pleasure.

I learned that if I live my life with the intention to help others, whether they "need" my help or not,it makes me feel kinda nice inside.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #109
153. So you wait until he dies to get this off your chest?
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #153
199. I guess this was the wrong time -- post to all responders
Look, I'm done. It's WAY too defensive in here. I apologize for disrupting your calls for blood. (Please take this as light-hearted humor).

Nothing I wrote, reflects upon me, other than that I have questions. I was tactful, concerned, and chose to put it in a thread calling for violent retribution, which I find appropriate.

I am sorry for your loss, and perhaps this was inappropriate.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #199
202. Need to correct you: There was no call for "violent retribution"
And yes, what you write DOES reflect upon you. If not you, who?

And yes, your posts have been very innappropriate.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #202
216. amen
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 04:06 PM by noiretblu
i was hoping andy's friends could get through this day of his death last night, without having to defend him from people here.
i never met andy in person, but i knew him online for 4 years and we were allies in many online battles.
i cried this morning when i heard the news, and i know many others who never met him did the same.
i am sure will is grieving also, so i understand and share his anger.
what those people did reflects on them too, and they won't get away with it either.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #199
299. there was no call for violent retribution....
but you did repeatedly try to stir up an investigation of andy's assets.
you pretend to be offended by the shitload of lies and innuendo while adding to it?
i would have to agree you are "confused".
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #199
352. Sometimes it's best to quit digging the hole you're in.
Know what I mean, Gene?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #199
398. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #199
403. Extremely Weird and Twisted
Life must be soooo horrible for some.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #403
416. I'd like you to elaborate on that
Why is my life "horrible?"
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #416
429. Only You Can Answer That for Yourself
I'm sorry, but I charge for therapy sessions.
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #109
213. good god man why not just ignore the thread?
really? what was the point of that?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #109
231. Both you and Will make good points and I think you both have good
intentions. Life is never fair and all we can do is the best we can. People wanted to help Andy because they became personally connected with him here on DU. Like you I never gave money to Andy because I felt their were more worthy causes but I could just as easily given to Andy and felt great about it. Sure their are people who were much worse off than Andy and you are probably right that they should get attention before Andy should have but giving to Andy is a personal decision made from peoples hearts. Our hearts are not perfect and sometimes we may take on causes that are not as worthy as others but in the end they are all worthy causes. Getting caught up into arguments about what the best way people can help others is a worthy topic but people have every right to help Andy if they feel a connection to him over people who come from less fortunate backgrounds. In the end EVERY good cause needs to be supported. I understand your points and can tell you mean well. Being a devils advocate should never be considered a bad thing. I hope others hear on DU will show you the respect you deserve in having the guts to give your opinion. This is not a black and white situation as many would like to make it.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #231
332. very diplomatic
of course, andy DIED less than 24hrs ago, so now is probably not the best time to play devil's advocate here, considering how many friends he has here. including the people who raised funds for him.
it doesn't take a lot of guts to be insensitive, actually.
and there's nothing more "black and white" than death.
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wovenpaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #109
290. Begging? I don't recall any begging
Gee.....what a post.

I DO recall a community coming together when trouble hit one of it's own.


Knowing of him and his courageous work through the many postings that I've followed, I felt honored to be able to help him with my small donations. I believe that it was the very least I could do for an American patriot.


Godspeed, Andy.
Go get em, Will.

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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #109
393. I'M SORRY, BUT WHO THE F*CK ARE YOU???
Where did you come from? I have my suspicions.



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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #393
413. You can call me a freeper
if it makes you feel better.
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seshers Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
115. Your cats deserve better.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:06 PM by seshers
Go get 'em, WP. Let me know if I can help.

I love reading your posts and your sentiment rings loud and clear with me.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
119. Go to it Will
What they did was unforgivable!
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
120. Can someone PM me details please?
I've read a lot of vague posts about all that happened with Andy over the last few months but I don't know the details. I know you don't want to list them out here, but could someone send them to me? I've wanted to know for ages what this was all about. I don't know what that other site is (apparently it's not FR, n'est ce pas?) and I know certain people were involved in casting doubt on Andy's condition but I don't know the motive, the players, and the facts.

I would really appreciate it, as I've been donating to Andy as much as I could and I am heartbroken about his death. Thank you.

P.S. I'm happy to forward this info to anyone else who is as confused as I am. Unless I'm the only dumbass.

P.P.S. You rock Will. Thank you.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #120
162. I'm not the only dumbass, people have been asking me
to forward them the information as well. I know those of you "in the know" are terribly busy mourning and getting ready to take action on this. But if you have just a few minutes to give me the info, I will PM it to others. We want to help in any way we can!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #162
168. grace, I just can't do details today.
But this sink scum hounded Andy from sickbed to sickbed, with their lies and insinuations. It's just the worst thing I've EVER seen in my life.

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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #168
194. I understand.
When you have a chance, or if someone else can step in, I would appreciate it. I've felt so lost for months and I kept putting off asking because I figured I'd wait until Andy got better and well...

:(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #194
221. I'm so sorry.
((((((((((((grace)))))))))))))


We'll talk when we can. They lied and lied and lied. Tried to stop our fundraising, tried to upset the organizers, tried to stop Andy from getting or benefitting from his treatment.

They saw what we were doing and they hated the care, the love and the strength of this community. And tried to distrupt it no matter what.

They can't hurt him now.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #221
224. Right back atcha
They can't hurt him now, but we can hurt them. Or at least their cause.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #168
211. Same here. I have never witnessed something as tragic as this.
:-(
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #120
251. Grace...
http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0527/050706_news_...

Here is an article that may help.

PS-you are not a dumbass. :hi:
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #251
369. Thank you!
I did read this article before but lost the link, so thanks for posting it. I know about Fred Grady and the whole BBV thing (although I'm not clear *exactly* what happened with that), but I still don't know about who else Will is referring to (he said it wasn't FR). Slowly I'm filling in the missing pieces. Thanks for your help in that.

:)
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
122. Anger is a part of mourning
It really hurts to lose a loved one, and one of the first
steps in the grieving process is to get enraged, to blame something
for taking away our friend. And we beat our fists on the apron of
god, crying and furious to give us back our beloved.

After hours and hours of fury, days when the tears run dry and we
see that our loved one is dead still dead. And then we must ask
in our heart of hearts, what is the truth that our dead friend
would have asked as a dying wish.

Would it have been to memorialize his life by crushing some cockroaches?
Would it have been to achieve recordable physical ballots in elections?
Would it have been to love and make goodwill with a smile
when so many have failed to discover that.

And still he is dead, and for all the fury, will not come back.
and After the years go by, cold shrunken hearts want to extract
justice from the stupid and the evil... but in reality, Andy's
life was not about stupid or evil people, and part of the
power of forgiveness is to shed them from our lives, to forever
remove them from our hearts and our memories of our friend.

I admire your fury Will, but he's in gods hands now.
I hope you bring justice to things, and remember that part
of justice is forgiveness and memorializing our loved ones
with acts of love and not vengence.

peace,
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prairierose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
124. You go, Will....
these people deserve punishment both here and now and later on.

:grr:

OTOH

:grouphug: for all of Andy's friends
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
128. SIGN ME UP TOO!!
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
129. I agree with you on everything except
the mods and admins at that other site. They are as complicit as those who attempted to murder Andy.
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
132. you've got bigger fish to fry. get to it.
your comments are a bit over the top. you should collaborate with O'Reilly on some great fiction thriller.

I've respected your views on many subjects, but for you to go after people and BLAME THEM for someone's death is ludicrous.
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warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
137. Bless your heart Will
I'm behind you 100 percent.
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paula777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
143. I am so sorry you lost your friend .... ben, lala, and others who were
close to him. I am just so very sorry. Life is just so unfair sometimes.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
152. These "graveyard rats" did a truly unspeakably wicked thing.
They are right up there with some of the ugliest, rottenest, most putrid diseased slime in the universe. Right up there with sociopathic serial child molesters.

We can hope that these creatures feel remorse at what they have done, but it is probable that the pathetic little shit maggots that perpetrated these vile acts are genuine psychopaths and have absolutely no morals and are therefore incapable of remorse.

They really do need to be publicly shamed and held accountable in the hope that their "nasty little selfs" never do anything like this again to innocent people. In this way, despite the fact that they lack any semblance of a conscience, our society can protect itself from them by being aware of who and where they are at all times.

We can put up posters with their pictures on them so that we can all know when they are in our neighborhood.

Then at least we can keep our children safely away from their stench and the corruption of their presence.

I really do pity and feel sorry for these petty little creatures, and I know that this rant sounds cold and compassionless; nevertheless, the fact remains, they must somehow be prevented from harming more innocent and good people.

Because, realistically, any "person" that did what they did is obviously capable of committing the most heinous acts conceivable.

My God, how can they possibly live with what they did?

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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
156. I hope Mike Malloy is raging on this tonight as well. nt
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
170. Everybody should read another thread here on DU
This one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It links to a story about what Will is so pissed about.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
171. And Will has a big cat.
;)
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
174. Is this the twilight zone?
Will, you made a very public accusation about being deceived by Andy or his supporters, demanding accountability for your "lost credibility" when you went on the line for him. Your accusations, which you made without talking to Andy played a part in the restriction of the flow of funding, and added to the problem for which you are now saying you will seek revenge.

Fine, just put your head under the boot first.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #174
189. I did indeed
and got the answers I needed, and apologized in a dozen different places, and cleared it all up with Andy personally. My questions played no part whatsoever in the restriction of funds; that is a bullshit and baseless accusation.
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kcwayne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #189
200. It is hardly bullshit and baseless
A lot of people on this board respect what you say and respond accordingly. Your postings added to sense that something was wrong with the veracity of the message put forth about Andy's plight.

How can you possibly suggest that the firestorm you created did not cause people to reconsider whether or not they would contribute money to the cause? Your strident tone, words, and bitterness about how you had possibly ben duped added to the concern that a scam was going down? I had already given money to Andy. Your post made me reconsider whether I had done the right thing, I am sure I am not the only one.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #200
212. Something was wrong
and I found out what it was. What was wrong was 15 different people walking around with little bits of the whole story, and then posting them here in little bits, lending the sense that there were fifteen different versions of the truth. That scattered approach was a lot of the fuel for the assholes who went after Andy. It also created a sense for me that I and the others who helped with the fundraising had been jerked around regarding the facts.

I posted what I posted, and after that people stopped posting little bits of this and that. Once I established what the actual facts were, and made sure that I was part of the information loop, and apologized for blowing up to Andy and to everyone else involved, the people attacking him lost their main source of conspiracy data.

I felt like a bastard, but I had reasons for doing what I did.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #212
227. I was impressed that you apologized.
It's pretty rare these days for ANYONE to ever admit they were wrong, so I think you get a kudo or two for that.

The episode taught us all a little something.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #212
229. get the bastards, will
i was one the people who thought you were wrong the first time, but i am 100% behind your efforts this time.
anger is a teacher as well as a gift...
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #174
236. I was wondering about that.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:42 PM by Quixote1818
I was trying to remember exactly what happened but I do remember a thread by Will that stated he was confused and wondering what was going on and he seemed to be questioning Andy's story but with reluctance. I don't remember too much more than that though. I think John's Hopkins privacy rules made it difficult for people to figure out what was going on. Those privacy rules became more of a problem to Andy than a help to him. I think Will was sincere in everything he did though.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
176. Amen
Can you file under a Washington libel law or an intentional harm law?
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Samurai_Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
179. You have said what I have been feeling all day...
only much better than I could have, Will. If I can help in anyway with this project to clear Andy's name and punish those who contributed to his death, just let me know.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
180. more DUrama
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #180
310. Thanks for weighing in,
that was most helpful.

Now fuck off.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #310
414. Wahhhhhh Wah
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #180
314. "My nasty little thread got deleted, so I'll come shit all over this one"
:eyes:
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
181. Thank you Will
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
182. Don't you love your cat???
What an awful thing to talk about doing to the poor soul!

And don't talk about burying them with Andy, either--they hardly deserve the honor.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #182
362. Indeed! How could you even THINK of poisoning your pussycat?
You ought to know that we take our puddytats (and other furry family members) vewy, vewy seriously here on this board.
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
196. I never doubted Andy even after I read your other rant Will.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

That thread alone stirred up a lot of crap and caused a lot of hurt for a lot of folks. Time to move out of the glass house if your going to throw stones.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #196
215. Whoa, just whoa.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:15 PM by sfexpat2000
The difference between DUers like Will who felt responsible and concerned and these motherless @ssholes was very clear to me, anyway.

They wanted their concerns to be addressed.

The slime wanted to hurt Andy, even second hand by attacking his supporters.

There's really no comparison.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #196
217. How about this
From May 18th:

===

Various corners of the web have been buzzing with rumors and stories about the status of Andy Stephenson. I, myself, started something of an ugly firestorm on the topic on Tuesday when a bunch of seemingly contradictory information came my way and caused me to question exactly what was going on. To wit: There were allegations made that Andy was not in fact suffering from pancreatic cancer, and that the fundraising blitz done in the last weeks was based upon less-than-accurate information.

After two long days of phone calls and emails, I have come to a few absolutely concrete conclusions. First, Andy does in fact have pancreatic cancer, and is a long way from being out of the woods. Second, there was no bad faith, exaggeration or ill intention whatsoever in the process of raising money for him. Third, and perhaps most importantly, the confusion that has burst forth in the last several days on this issue stems from the simple fact that the people involved in this process have never done anything like this before - raising large amounts of money from anonymous people on a website - and that several people of good faith were publicly posting parts of the story here and there on the web, lending the impression that there was more than one version of the truth floating around.

The details, of course, are more complicated than these straightforward sentences, but the details lead back to the same conclusions.

Back in February, Andy was diagnosed with a tumor in or around his pancreas. Subsequent doctors, subsequent tests and subsequent diagnoses confirmed this. As in any medical situation, though, the specifics of the diagnoses and prognoses changed from doctor to doctor. Anyone who has ever been sick, or dealt with someone who was sick, knows how this kind of thing can be fluid. A couple of weeks ago, thanks to the help of friends, Andy was put into the system at Johns Hopkins, the premier facility for this kind of disease.

The explosion of confusion surrounding this situation took place, in a twist of rotten irony, because of a piece of good news. Andy got a test at Hopkins that revealed the tumor to be encapsulated. I am not a doctor, and the details of why this was better news than originally thought are beyond my ability to describe with any coherence. Yet the fact remains that the worst-case scenario was a little less pressing after this new test.

But when this news was posted as an aside comment on the web, word began to spread that Andy was not, in fact, afflicted with pancreatic cancer, and that the fundraising efforts that were based on this diagnosis were done in bad faith. I, myself, reacted to this badly. The very public proclamations of pancreatic cancer which I and others were told to make did not seem to jibe with the seemingly offhand revelation that this might not be the case.

I suddenly got a whole bunch of messages from other organizations which had likewise supported the fundraiser. If the facts were different than originally stated, they feared, it would be a blow to their reputations and would harm their ability to raise money for their own causes. They feared, in short, that they had helped to sell a false bill of goods, and had done so in no small part based upon my word on the matter. I raised, not to put too fine a point on it, a good deal of hell after this.

Heres the deal: The new test revealing the encapsulated tumor was misunderstood by many, including myself, as meaning the situation was far less serious than originally stated. The misunderstanding came, in no small part, because the people describing the test results (along with myself) know as much about medicine as I know about flying a stealth fighter.

Rather than try to blast through everything, better to address the most-asked questions that have come up.

1. Does Andy have pancreatic cancer?

Yes. The news he got last week may well auger towards a better outcome, but it is still pancreatic cancer and is still very, very serious. Frankly, we are at the point where the doctors will not know exactly what they are dealing with until they get in there and have a look. Once they do, there will be one of two possibilities found: A cancer that can be dealt with, and a cancer that cannot. The surgery is slated for next week, but could conceivably happen sooner if there is a cancellation on the Hopkins surgery schedule.

2. Could Andy have had this surgery somewhere besides Hopkins?

Technically, yes. He could have it in a number of places, but the fact remains that Hopkins is the best place to deal with pancreatic cancer. The odds of a favorable outcome fall off the table when procedures like this are done elsewhere. Andys doctor, apparently, is a Jedi Knight of a surgeon who has developed his own version of the Whipple procedure that is less invasive. Bear in mind that not too many years ago, pancreatic cancer was a no-doubt death sentence. He is lucky to be there, and we are lucky that he is there.

3. Is the surgery going to cost what was originally claimed?

Yes. We managed to raise an eyelash above $50,000 for this, and every penny of it has been needed. In fact, once the chemo and recovery process starts, this merry-go-round is going to start up all over againalbeit with wiser and cooler heads in charge of the process.

I am more than a little disgusted with myself for the part I played in causing all of this confusion. I hope that this will serve to put any questions to rest, so that we can focus on what is important: Pulling for Andy as he goes through this wretched situation. He is in Baltimore now, surrounded by friends, and is well cared-for. When more information comes along, I will let you know.

As an aside, there are some out there on the web who have used this situation as a means to attack Andy because of his work on election reform, or because they just dont agree with his politics. To say this is disgusting, ghoulish and beneath contempt is to put it kindly. My posting this isnt going to stop them from continuing their wholly despicable campaign, sadly.

For those who require more proof than what I have provided, Andy has begun the process of setting up a spokesperson with HIPAA permissions to deal with and make public pertinent documentation. You arent going to get everything, because 99% of this isnt anyones damn business but Andys and his doctors, but enough proof to silence even the most pestilent of critics will be provided once the HIPAA process is done.

http://blog.pdamerica.org/?p=50
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #196
273. Except Will's post was made AFTER the damage was done and funds
delayed so it really didn't alter the outcome one way or another...but nice try
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #196
274. Except Will's post was made AFTER the damage was done and funds
delayed so it really didn't alter the outcome one way or another...but nice try
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
203. sign me up.
nt
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
206. I Feel Bad for Those Who Stepped Over the Line
NOT :evilgrin:

Go get 'em Will!!!!
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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
209. Couldn't agree more.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
214. One last fine point on this "our rules versus theirs" stuff
Some of the rules on this site exist because Skinner is clear, and rightfully so, that if posts on his site cause harm to befall another he MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE HELD HARMLESS....a point that Jim Rob and Rob "I am not a" Crook should also learn...and soon I hope.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #214
225. Presupposes a capacity to learn.
:eyes:
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
219. Amen! This is so sad...
So Andy did get delayed because of the money? That is evil.




I am so sorry he didn't make it. I am so sorry.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
222. Add me to the list to help!
I can email and write letters.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
232. you said it Will
Thank you and let me know how to help
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KyndCulture Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
233. My blood just boiled. Thank you Will.
Go get em, in all our names...karma is a motherfucker and she's coming for them, I know she is.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
238. I am going to ask the mods to lock this
The accusation has been raised that this thread is 'about me,' that I am grandstanding. Rather than dive into that fight, I think it best to park this.

For the record, however, I didn't have a thought about myself when I posted this. This is about Andy, whose central motivation for survival was the chance to nail these assholes to the shed. He's gone, but I intend to see his wishes fulfilled. This is also about all of the people who posted above, who feel the same way.

So that's that.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #238
247. I request you not do that
Yeah you took some accusations..you always do...furthermore, you did start a thread a while back that didn't help matters but it was LONG after the PAYPAL acts had occurred so timewise it does not matter.

Either way...don't shut down the discussion..hit the alert on personal attacks if you must
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #247
267. That's the problem with some Right Wing Boards ...
is that they can say *anything* demeaning about *any individual* on another board as long as they are a Liberal Democrat. These sick, sadistic personalities are then urged-on by the other hate filled personas who feel empowered ONLY when they are pushing people DOWN.

Some boards even dedicate whole sections (forums)to generating Top 10 lists of DU screen names in their seemingly never ending attempt to demean individuals on our (DU) board.

If that isn't a clutch of sociopaths, I don't know what constitutes the title. It's sad and sick to read the bile spewed at their hate filled MB. Their swarm-like hatred and piling on competition for crude insults is comparable to a mob without any sense of civility or moral restraint.

Lord of the Flies = certain RW Message boards?

Yes, that's about right. :(
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #267
315. I crave and relish honesty....please keep thread open... We Support Will!
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 05:35 PM by Chicago Democrat
I stand by you and we need to take this to the world after we stop crying!
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #238
256. Huh?
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:57 PM by Goldmund
Andy, whose central motivation for survival was the chance to nail these assholes

I hope -- I KNOW -- this was not Andy's "central motivation for survival".

Rather than dive into that fight, I think it best to park this

I support you in this fight, but it's impossible to get into the fight you want to get into (as described in your OP) without first diving into that one. As you may remember, I was also with you then when you were asking questions.

You need to clearly define who it is you're after now, other than the vague "these assholes". You obviously aren't including people who raised well-meaning questions. You're including people who maliciously went after Andy to harm him.

But the line between the two needs to be unambiguously drawn if you are going to have the fight with "these assholes".

And the drawing of that line is the fight you have to dive into first.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #256
261. We already know who the ringleaders are.


That work is already done. We know who these anonymous cowards are who wanted Andy's most intimate information -- so they could use it to attack him.



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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #261
265. I meant more in terms of a qualitative distinction
What EXACTLY is it that distinguishes those of us, Will included, who asked questions, and those whom Will wants to see underneath his boot sole? While Will and 99% of questioning DUers made sure the questions were reasonable and never claimed to definitively think Andy was a scammer, some people on other sites did. Are they now in our crosshairs, if all they did was post their opinions on the Internet? Or did they need to do something more substantive -- like reporting "fraud" to Paypal -- to deserve this distinction?

Of course, I have my own thoughts on this, but I think it's fair to afford Will the opportunity to define that since he has, by the virtue of this thread, assumed the leadership of this fight.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #265
271. Intent
People who asked questions because of legitimate concerns regarding the fundraising process, and because of all the diferent information that was flying around, know who they are and should be at peace about asking.

www.scamdy.com

These are the people who should be worried.

It's pretty straightforward, actually. Legitimate concerns vs. a deep desire to do harm to a sick man.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #271
277. Gotcha, thanks
"Intent" is an abstract thing for everybody but the one who intends; his or her actions are the only way to gauge that intent.

So, it's people who specifically started web sites to attack Andy, including "activism" such as drafting an FBI report. I agree that this likely implies ill intent.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #265
272. I'm sure you have your own thoughts about this.
And I leave to enjoy them.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #272
275. What does that mean?
:shrug:
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emdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
240. I don't blame you...
I did not know Andy but have looked at several of the discussions both here and at FR and that other site. What they did is despicable. Why in the world would they devote so much time and effort to be so horribly mean and uncaring?

Expose them, WilliamPitt, for what they are. I'll help if I can.

emdee
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
241. I've been fighting those fuckers since May 11th, and I haven't even
begun to fight.


I'm ready.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #241
323. So you have. I have been watching. You go, and if you need someone
who can type and hit send, let me know.

The real tragedy in this mess is that according to Bush we are the richest Country with the fastest growing economy, and we can't take care of our people. Elsewhere in the first world, this would not have been an issue. Here, health care is. That needs to change. 45 million uninsured and rising under the NeoCon agenda.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
242. You go, Will.
Expose the subhuman vermin to the light of day.
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
245. Well now ...
Will had questions and doubts as many of us did at different points, it was inevitable with the amount of garbage that was thrown around. He expressed those concerns and then clawed his way to the answers/truth.

Some poisonous, defective, empty piece of humanity premeditatedly disrupted Andy receiving medical care for no other reason then needing to feed their empty soul with a hatred spree.

How can you even think about comparing doubt to poison?




Father forgive them, for they know not what they do...
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
246. This really is a national story...
Needs to be picked up... We could do that! Start with The Nation?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #246
255. Start with truthout
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
252. Don't feed them to your cat, Will. They would poison it. The time honored
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 03:51 PM by 1monster
rite of purification is by fire.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
257. GO GET THEM.

Set about them with a bitter will, my friend. Hound and harry them.

May their dreams rot and sicken in their SIGHT.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
263. We've got your back, Will, NSMA and the rest
I lost track of all the details long ago but I know enough to join your battle enthusiastically.

As an atheist, I proudly shout to the heavens VENGEANCE IS MINE.

:grr: May they rot from the inside out like the heartless, souless carcasses they are. :grr:
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In_The_Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
270. united we stand against a common foe
:kick:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
276. Two (well three) final thoughts on this
1. I corresponded with Andy a few times on here. He seemed like a perfectly decent gent. I'm sorry that he passed; I hope the he finds a better place. And I feel very sad for his friends, loved ones, family, partner, and anyone else he touched. The pain to lose someone so vibrant so young is awful. Many of us have been there too.

2. It's important to learn from things. The main thing is that maybe there was a better way to do this from the beginning that wouldn't have caused so much hoo-hah. As other people said, fundraisers are done everyday in every small town in America. Someone obviously knows how to run them. I think in the rush to get Andy the care he needed, a lot of doors were left open that people with agendas could step through. I don't think a day or two of planning would have hurt here. The surgery still took weeks to unfold. Next time, someone needs to go to the local Elks' Club or Lions' Club and ask them how they do it.

3. Always remember: the Internet is not a nice place. If you are going to post under your real name - like Andy and Will - and be controversial, you are going to make enemies. And enemies can hurt you out here. So, tread carefully.
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jonny_durango Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
282. Thanks for fighting the good fight, Will
Will,

My family and I were close personal friends of Andy's for years. We met you at Chang's mongolian grill in Seattle, I believe it was the first time you met Andy in person. Anyhow, I'm glad to see you are taking up the good fight.

Unfortunately I'm going to give the moderators of the "other forums" hell because they keep removing my posts which are critical of some of their members, specifically those who attempted to disgrace and discredit Andy in his darkest hour.

Anyhow, please put the heat on these fuckers....you know as well as I that Andy would want these pigs to pay.

If you need ANY help, anything at all, let me know.

I hear you are a candidate for giving the eulogy at Andy's service....I hope to see you there!

Jonny Durango
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #282
324. Welcome to DU, jonnny_durango.
Not a happy occasion but nevertheless thank you for joining us. Please come back often! :hi:
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
284. As said earlier in the thread, anger is a gift
I am happy to help you in any capacity possible. Let me know.

Julie

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
285. I know there are awful people in the world and I know they
were vile when it came to Andy and Paypal, but the sad fact is, very few survive pancreatic cancer, even if it's diagnosed and treated on day one. In fact, everyone I know who has had the misfortune to have it has died. That said, I don't blame you for being mad. I just hope - eventually - we can channel the rage more productively into the causes Andy stood for. Wouldn't he want that?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
286. as bad as it is..........
...keep in mind that pancreatic cancer is rarely survivable. When it has been diagnosed, it is almost always too late for anything to be done. Thirty days it was from the time of my mother's diagnosis to her death. That's close to the norm.

Rage at those who libeled Andy and obstructed his care is right -- they caused him a lot of worry when he didn't need it. But a week or two weeks probably wouldn't have made the outcome better, sorry to say. It's a horrible disease that breaks too many hearts. Visualize the finding of a cure for those yet to come. It could happen.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #286
334. I know the stats too, and I know this is anecdotal but...
I worked for several years in a cancer staging section of a major metropolitan university hospital always ranked in the top 10 in the country for cancer care.

Admittedly I am neither a health care worker or scientist, but one thing became abundantly clear to all of us who worked in that department, including the docs -- the ones who consistently beat the odds were the ones who were able to rid themselves of all the negative noise and surround themselves with positive, supportive people.

When I think of the many inspirational people I met there, I think of Andy because there were actually two criteria that made a quantifiable difference, the second being those who felt they had positive contributions ahead of them, and were determined to make them.

Who knows, maybe he was terminal from the get go, but now that I know the score I firmly believe the hounding and smearing must have sapped strength he could have used for healing. Either way he is gone way too soon.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #334
366. no argument there
Andy was diagnosed in April. Ninety days is the usual best-case prognosis for pancreatic cancer, I think. What a miserable disease.
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
289. They're saying "bring it on" look:
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 04:56 PM by goodboy
ee
Mail Room Clerk


Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 56
Location: North East West South Dakota

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Andy Stephenson DIED last night at 9:27 PDT Reply with quote
MistyMemory wrote:

Will Pitt threatens all who questioned Andy's fundraising:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... (remove the http://mistymemory.forumsplace.com/urljump.php?url= after clicking on the link, then press go).


Is that all they know how to do?
Treatening" I know who you are. I have your IP addy. ect..ect.."
I say "Bring it on"

BTW threats of guns don't bother me....
_________________
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything

http://mistymemory.forumsplace.com/message32.html
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #289
309. that sickens me..
to quote this..

"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything"
from good boys post..



well they wouldn't know truth if it slapped them in the face...

i did not read but a few things they said..i was a little busy at the time..

but what i read was total hog wash...

andy did come out of recovery totally aware ..and into icu and he did talk on his cell phone..so they are full of horse shit..

not for long but he did talk to a du'er i wont name names ..but i was there and i heard him talk on his cell phone..andy had a young nurse..and she did not object..it was me who suggested he try to rest and not use the phone after that call..but he did talk on the phone, i was standing next to him when he did..and these assholes were saying you could not use your phone in icu..well thats a lie..it is not the norm in many hospitals but people walked around jh talking on cell phones everywhere..

in fact that night my cell phone rang in the icu and i stepped out of andys room and talked on mine for a few moments..there were no curtains or doors on that icu..

and half of what these people said was nothing but bullshit!

to me these monsters are nothing but pond scum!

lying filthy pond scum!
one of them even had the nerve to go to the families and friends of jh pancreatic cancer web site asking about the price of surgery at jh..please do not go there ..that site is for people trying to help one another dealing with this disease..and grieving..stay away from it..please..but one of these pond scum was going there to where people are really hurting and tried to get info about andys surgery..i deflected as best i could..it infuriated me..i would go there to try to get info on what andy could eat and what was going on with him..those people are the true heros of the world!

and the idea that one of these son of a bitches would go there for their sick aganda..is to me beyond the pale...let them rot in hell..hell will be too good for them!

go ahead you damn freepers freep that...you can not hurt me more than i am today with my friend gone!

i have never believed in revenge..and i honestly do not know how i feel about it today..because i feel too numb..but these assholes should be held accountable..so they can never bring this kind of pain on anyone so ill again or the people who have cared so much to help their friend..or the caretakers should not be put through what these sick son of a bitches did!

pardon my typos ..but i got angry writing this..

and i don't want to be angry...i want to remember my friend and his smile and the joy he brought to those around him... it hurts too much to have lost him...fly

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #309
329. you're right, sweetie
everything you said is true. you're right.
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
292. It's absolutely surreal.
Truth stranger than fiction.

They should be incarcerated, shouldn't they?

I guess the internet has provided an opportunity for the commission of crimes previously unimagined.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
294. OK..the people on that site are cracking me up
Point number one: Regarding your armchiar lawyering, I find it humorous that you are all quoting a retired LIBERAL Supreme Court justice in defense of yourselves on the matter of libel. Yes, freepfucktards...it was a LIBERAL judge that ruled you have to prove malice.

Point number two: You will find out about my expertise concerning this area of law soon enough since there are more parties than Andy that actually have GOOD CAUSE to come after you.

Point number three: The costs alone of defending yourselves will shut you the fuck up for a good long time.

Point number 4: Your little piece of shit sites are not without guilt in the matter....you libeled MORE PEOPLE than just Andy....go read Burnett vs National Enquirer...
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
298. Fuck those mods and admins,
their existence is an affront to decent human beings, along with the pus-bags thatposted their vile shit there.

They all need to suffer.

Every last one of them.

Somebody pipe me some information, and I'll fucking clean house.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #298
317. You do have a point Dave ...
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 05:41 PM by ElectroPrincess
People here know me as Moderate on the political spectrum. Because I was honored to serve in the US Army and believe in the 2nd Amendment, I have rightly been attacked by the far left. BUT ALSO, because I voted for Kerry, against the Iraq Invasion, do not believe in the Death Penalty and support the ACLU, I'm also attacked by the far right.

I admit to despising the *fringes* of both ends of the political spectrum. I may not be as liberal democrat as many here, but the reason I came to DU is because I was not ever called a "f**king bitch" outright nor have others readily join in to spew vile insults to my person.

Yes, I confess to not liking (yes, even, in general, verbally disrespecting) both the far left or far right. No wonder I catch so much hell?!? ;)

Yeah Dave, IMO anyone (including Moderators and Administrators) who choose to key out by screen name and spew venom at individuals should be identified for censure.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #317
321. I consider myself moderate as well,
once upon a time I actually voted for the PERSON, not the PARTY. I apologize for typing my ill-tempered outburst.

Being in the field of pathology, I knew that pancreatic cancer gives a very poor prognosis, and I knew the odds were against poor Andy, but I never would have put that down in public. Anyone who did was at best insensitive, and at worst sub-human.

I feel rage against whoever interrupted funds.

I'll stop now.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
300. Bev Harris
must be held to account. She started this "Andy is faking" BS and then egged on the freeper scum to attack him.

We need to make sure that ANYONE having dealings with her knows about the long list of people she has screwed and smeared.

We need to name names, with her's at the top.
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #300
302. We need to do *all* this via PM
Otherwise we're as dirty as the RW sites who disrespect individuals over there.

We need to do this right - we need to do this LEGAL.

Suggest we respect Skinner's rules and keep the specific names PM?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #302
331. Good catch n/t
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #300
307. Yup. There's a group in MN that got taken in by the tumor
I'll be letting them know about her this weekend. Count on it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #307
405. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #300
311. Wow.... That is news....
People can't be allowed to get away with this! Unbelievable. This is national news.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #311
379. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #300
313. Bev Harris sat at that other site and INCITED them WHILE
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 05:32 PM by sfexpat2000
Andy was in surgery.

Oh, and she took the opportunity to smear the Kerry campaign as well.

Some hero she turned out to be. I trust her. :sarcasm:
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #313
316. check out the forum that links from BBV
They have a state forum and they are sucking people in to their lies.

I think we'd be doing the uninformed a favor by giving them the heads up.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #316
318. You're probably right. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #316
385. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #385
430. Here's ya go, Bev
Start here, with your own email to Freeper franksolich.
--------------------------------------------------
His spouse, Ted, also has about $100,000 equity in their house. Ted is an able-bodied and very intelligent man who chooses not to be employed.

We wish Andy a recovery free of complications, and I do believe that he is indeed going in for treatment at Johns Hopkins, and that he does have significant health problems. I do not think I've seen him, personally, say that he has pancreatic cancer. That is a diagnosis put forward on his behalf by others, if I'm not mistaken. I doubt very much that he is dying, but that does not mean that he is not at risk.

I will say this: Someone in my immediate family, whom I adored, died of pancreatic cancer. We lost him in six months, he was in considerable pain, and he certainly would have been unable to travel around the country, looking plump, cherubic and rosy-cheeked, giving speeches.

Maybe it is cancer, or perhaps a benign tumor or a precursor tumor, or pancreatitis (which is no joke either). Whatever it is, I am sure he is truly sick, and I hope he gets better quickly and as painlessly as possible. At the same time, I believe he should properly disclose the actual diagnosis.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1402493/po...
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #313
325. All we need is copies of the posts and
collect it all together and report it to the national media.


This story is news.



Andy Stephenson = Death by politics. First human causualty of the blog wars? Look at these cockroaches. Bev Harris... well, well
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #325
328. We have them.
Because no matter how worried we were, we knew what was happening and kept documenting.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #325
388. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #388
431. Right........so this Bev email to Freeper franksolich on 5/15
hand nothing to do with it, right? So, Bev, you think he was dying yet?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1402493/po...
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #313
326. How awful
I had no idea she was behind so much of the smear campaign. That's truly terrible and speaks volumes about her.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #300
377. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #377
389. Well, hello Bev. Worried now?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #389
400. bingo
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #389
410. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #410
420. Details Bev, details.
That was my first post in this thread.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #410
422. you sure look like Bev!
She always talks about libel.


Doesn't she know libel laws don't apply to Public Figures?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #377
427. Ooops, Bev, did you forget your own emails?
His spouse, Ted, also has about $100,000 equity in their house. Ted is an able-bodied and very intelligent man who chooses not to be employed.

We wish Andy a recovery free of complications, and I do believe that he is indeed going in for treatment at Johns Hopkins, and that he does have significant health problems. I do not think I've seen him, personally, say that he has pancreatic cancer. That is a diagnosis put forward on his behalf by others, if I'm not mistaken. I doubt very much that he is dying, but that does not mean that he is not at risk.

I will say this: Someone in my immediate family, whom I adored, died of pancreatic cancer. We lost him in six months, he was in considerable pain, and he certainly would have been unable to travel around the country, looking plump, cherubic and rosy-cheeked, giving speeches.

Maybe it is cancer, or perhaps a benign tumor or a precursor tumor, or pancreatitis (which is no joke either). Whatever it is, I am sure he is truly sick, and I hope he gets better quickly and as painlessly as possible. At the same time, I believe he should properly disclose the actual diagnosis.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1402493/po...
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
301. Its almost like murder, isn't it?
Lying! to prevent a sick man from raising funds needed to save his life?


Its like Manslaughter but premeditated. If its not illegal, God is not gonna look kindly in the afterlife. I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT THEM.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #301
320. I want to respect Skinner's site and not make any claims.
And the behavior I've witnessed in the last 9 weeks or so is about the worse thing I've ever seen.

I've never met any pedophiles or wife beaters, for example.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
303. It's hard to believe there are people walking around with so much bile
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 05:14 PM by impeachdubya
in them... How would you sleep, or even look in the mirror, when all you carry around is the type of hate that would cause you to spend all your time slurring, slandering, and making life more difficult for a very sick man?

I tend to think Karma comes around to bite such types on the ass in the end, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue any and all legal recourse available in the meantime. Best of luck, Will.

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mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #303
319. I have long wondered how any of these repukes can sleep at night
What they did to Andy is the straw that broke the camel's back. I didn't know him, but for reading his posts on DU about his activism, but I grieve for his loved ones.

I've lost loved ones to cancer but I can still only imagine what his loved ones are feeling right now. Not only have they lost a dear one, they and he had to deal with this bitter, twisted, vindictive hatred.

I have always believed that what goes around, comes around. In this came, I hope it comes around very soon.

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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
312. thanks will
it's unfucking believable that their response now is to blame andy himself as well as all those who tried to help him.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
327. These are the people Mike Malloy calls flesh eaters!
They truly are the undead, hell bent on destroying every living thing! It's horrible!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
330. I understand your angst ..............
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 06:32 PM by KoKo01
I feel it too. But, you sound like a "Freeper" in this post. As a long time DU'er who loved Andy I am appalled at what the RW has been doing.

And, I've got my own bottle of wine "uncorked" and have been drinking, liberally. BUT...understanding your angst...which is like mine...I find this a little OTT...But...hey...if I have another couple of glasses tonight in my gloom and sorrow over Andy and our other DU'ers who have fallen..I might be back here "Applauding to the N'th" what you say!"
From Will Pitt:
I am going to make you famous in all the worst kinds of ways. I know your names, I know your addresses, I know your IP numbers, I have screen shots and copies of every vile statement and threat you ever made. I know everything I need to know. Get ready for the ram.

You are graveyard rats. I am going to grind you under my bootheel, scrape you off with a blade, and feed you to my cat.


We all grieve differently...I understand that.
Peace....to you.....
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
333. this is vile
no one killed Andy.

These are some of the most disgusting words I've seen at DU, and I don't care how many people support them.

It's utterly wrong, and you all know it, and many of you will launch all kinds of invective in my direction for saying it but it's still wrong.

And the worst thing is that many people here know exactly what I'm saying and are letting it happen.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #333
336. Why is this vile, Cocoa?
I'd like to know what you think.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #336
338. you know why it is
that's not rage in Will's post, it's hatred. It's not true and he knows it and you know it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #338
339. I think I need you to explain to me what about Will's post
is not true.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #339
346. it's cheap scapegoating
it's actually frightening to see that it's tolerated here, by the members and the moderators.

Everybody here knows, we discuss it all the time, that people use tragedies to rally against the "other." And we all know how profoundly wrong that is.

No one here truly believes that any freeper caused, or even wished for, Andy's death.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #346
350. Really. And how do you come to that conclusion? n/t
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #350
353. not a time for games
I'm giving you straightforward answers, though I realize your questions aren't sincere.

But I'm done. You can read what I mean to say, not hidden by games or bluster or temper tantrums.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #353
356. Games. I still have no idea why you're calling Will's OP
into question.

And you're so very right. This is no time for games. It has been no time for games for effen weeks now, in case you hadn't noticed.

If you can't articulate your view, I have to respect that.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #353
357. Cocoa
There is actually a person or group who got the funds frozen in the paypal account that caused Andy's surgery to be delayed. That delay may well be what caused him to lose his life.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #346
359. Hang on a second.
"No one here truly believes that any freeper caused, or even wished for, Andy's death."

First of all, it wasn't freepers he was talking about, but people at another nasty right-wing website.

And for all I know they DID wish for his death. Have you ever read some of the stuff they said?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #359
368. I did
and they certainly did NOT wish Andy's death. There was not a single post there that had the same level of hatred as in Will's post, where he says these people should be buried with Andy.

Face it, Scamdy.com never reached this depth of ugliness.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #368
381. So, Scamdy
the website that bears the name "Scamdy" never reached this depth of ugliness.

So, please explain to me how this website that bears, as I type, the name of "scamdy" was not as ugly as Will Pitt's defense of his friend.

I can wait.
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #359
397. of course she did...
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #346
375. How would you know what the freepers did or didn't do?
Why defend them? :shrug:


Talk about questions. :evilgrin:
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #333
351. Ever the big brother, eh, cocoa?
Gotta step in and smack everyone around, chastise and berate.

Have at it, brother. Because the evil perpetrated by the people on the receiving end of Will's wrath makes a mockery of your protests. No one killed Andy? I won't argue with that. But if you read Will's post, if you've followed what's happened to Andy throughout this most difficult time in his life, you'd know this is about so much more than that.
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espi Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #333
360. vile
It was troubling to learn about the situation regarding Andy after it was too late to help.

It is almost impossible to comprehend the level of rhetoric being spewed forth in the aftermath. I agree with Cocoa, and regret not saying anything about this situation until now.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #360
395. I Smell Fear
I hope the scumbags responsible for this pay. They should. They need to understand that their actions have consequences.

So go poo poo elsewhere... I'm sure those fearless prick chickenhawks can handle it.
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Vadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #333
380. Right, no one killed Andy; however, they made his last few months....
pure hell, while he was fighting for his life, yet he still found time to post on DU and keep us laughing.....I say to hell with them! Bastards! They will get their just rewards when God calls us all home!






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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
335. They deserve your wrath Will, Andy was a great old soul
and would have never considered treating anyone the way they treated him.
Doubt there is any shame from their direction, but what goes around comes around, it's called KARMA.

Ignorant fuckers.
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lies and propaganda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
340. You constantly amaze me, Will.
I would be so proud to call you my friend in the 'normal' world.

Im here for any help you need, these scumbags knew what they were doing with a sick mans life. I would not be surprised by a victory high five on their parts, I just keep telling myself 'special place in hell, special place in hell."
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Bleacher Creature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
341. A little late to the game here, but whatever you need.
eom
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
343. PM me into the loop, bitte
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
344. Will...
I think you have the right to express your grief in this way and I think if it helps, then you should continue to vent. My only concern is that this will be turned against you, as these people often disregard feelings.

Some people grieve through silence, others through rage, others through tears. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to grieve. Anyone who has lost someone should understand that and should/would give you this space and not judge you or use your statements against you.

But the people who think all of this fun and games will make it fun and games using you and your grief.

You know I respect you and your work. I have no judgment on any statements made in your comments and I do agree that the mods at CU were very sympathetic and seem to be very kind in their condolences.

But I just ask that you take care not to let anyone make your grief into a tool for more hatred, since hatred is all that some of those people know. Just my 2 cents.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #344
364. I'm still lost, la. Can someone clue me in...
to which website. There seem to be three possibilities. I try always to stay away from them! PM me? Portuguese for translation?
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Vadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
347. Tell us what to do, Will....We're right behind you and we will take...
those assholes down! Bastards!


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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
349. Tear them new assholes Will, those fuckers need the reaming.
I hate them as much as I hate the neo-cons but on a personal level, fuck them to the fucking WALL!!!!
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
354. I am appalled you are trying to make this all about you. n/t
You did many of the things you accuse others of in your post. So what's the point of this thread besides making you the center of attention, once again?
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
355. those few days might have made the difference. I hope you can
get them, William. Good luck. I don't know what anyone, let alone Andy would do to deserve what happened.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
361. I have an extensive email list and a really big mouth.
What would you like for me to do?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #361
390. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
363. A-FUCKING-MEN!
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
370. Time out.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 08:08 PM by cornermouse
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the overall impression that I got from this thread is that it rather rapidly degenerated into what appears to be a fight amongst yourselves. Sort of like what I always assumed a barroom brawl looks like.

Congressional elections are about a year away. I believe statute of limitations is 2 years?

Is it possible the best way to revenge Andy would be to take up his cause? I can't help but wonder if that might be what Andy would want?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
371. I would like nothing more than to see those people publicly humiliated!
Name names and spread them far and wide! The bastards deserve what's coming to them. Go get 'em, Will!

A lawsuit would be nice. Charges of murder would be appropriate.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #371
396. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #396
404. You must be shittin' bricks about now.
Sweet.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #404
412. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #396
415. No Reason To Freak Out Man
It was only a death, right? You seem a little... nervous.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #415
418. No doubt
This is the same poster who bugs the telephone of a US Congressperson.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
372.  I thought you LIKED your cat. Those monsters aren't FIT for cat food.
I am going to grind you under my bootheel, scrape you off with a blade, and feed you to my cat.

Go get 'em, Will! Let's show those evil scum that there's a down side to enjoying hate-mongering.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
374. THIS POST IS LINKED TO IN THE SEATTLE TIMES memorial article for Andy:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Thread title: Seattle Weekly memorial article on Andy Stephenson: "A Fight To the End"

One way or another, the word is going to get around.

Good.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
378. I would love to kick some fuckers asses, if I knew who the
fuckers were. Some PM me to update me?

Will, you so fucking ROCK, dude.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #378
394. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #394
425. Sometimes I just need a good spanking.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
382. I don't know what I can do other than cheer you on...
but you have my support. I think there are times when really vile actions should have some consequences attached. If they had confined their disgusting behavior to bitching on their own site I would have said to leave it alone, but they took their evil into the real world and adversely affected a real human being and there really should be some accountability here.
Thanks, Will
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
383. Will, I've never responded to any of your posts...
Will,

I've never responded to any of your posts, however I'm an avid reader and fan of your work. Also, though I've been on DU since just after the first mis-election, I'm simply not the most prolific poster by any means (more than four years and just under 750 posts?). Additionally, I've only lightly followed the Andy's story 'cause I felt like a voyeur reading so much of someone's personal life. So, in effect, I really don't have a leg to stand on when I suggest that you...

"Slow down and think." Action based on rash decisions usually have a shit load of unintended consequences (I know this from experience- please believe this as though it were God himself telling you). Man, I don't personally know you from Adam; but I know that a smart, savvy, pissed-off journalist can destroy lives.

I'm probably pissing in the wind-- either you're smart enough to be aware of what I said already, or your pissed-off enough to do what you're going to do anyway. But if you're smart *and* pissed off, you'll slow down and think and only then, do.

Whatever you decide, good luck
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bixente Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
384. Is this why a topic I posted was deleted?
I mentioned a "certain site"...and it was deleted. I may know what this..."certain site" is...

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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
387. My heart is somewhere between sick and enraged...
I really thought Andy would fight through all this.

Will, I cannot even speak to your post yet -- I am so goddamned furious that I literally feel physically ill.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
391. Would the story of what happened to Andy at the end be of interest for a
60 Minutes type news story?

This could have some benefits:

-More exposure for Andy's cause, which might be the only issue that could resurrect Democracy in America.

-Deserved publicity for certain individuals.

Among others...
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paradox Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
411. You have my support 100% Will.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 09:24 PM by paradox

I can't believe some people would sink as low as they did.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
419. I imagine this post will someday be labeled "Exhibit A"
by the Plaintiff.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
428. How about manslaughter?
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/...Manslaughter
In the legal sense, Murder is the crime of causing the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill them, or with intent to cause them grievous bodily harm. When an illegal death is not caused intentionally, but is caused by recklessness or negligence (or there is some defense, such as insanity or diminished capacity), the crime committed may be referred to as manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide, which is considered to be less serious than murder. In the United States, manslaughter is often broken into two categories: involuntary manslaughter and voluntary manslaughter....


(many of the terms in the excerpt have live links to their own defiinitions in the online definition.)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #428
433. It would be a good thing if we could avoid a riot tonight.
:(

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
434. Locking
This has gone on long enough.
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