Howard Dean SUCKED on Hardball

[Proud2BAmurkin]

Dean called Iraq a "blunder" and Chris Matthews asked him why other Democrats aren't calling it a blunder. He named some top Democrats including Bill Clinton and said they are "with the president".

Bill Clinton said IDIOT SON SHOULD HAVE GIVEN THE INSPECTORS MORE TIME because then we would have discovered there were no WMD.

In other words IDIOT SON BLUNDERED because more time for inspectors would mean no WMD found which would mean no invasion which would mean no 1700 dead soldiers and $350 billion wasted. BLUNDER.

Dean said he "didn't know" why people like Bill Clinton weren't saying Iraq is a blunder. He accepted Chris Matthews lie instead of saying that top Democrats like Clinton ARE SAYING IT'S A BLUNDER.

Dean sucked.

[Caution]

1. It is of course possible that Dean wasn't aware of Clinton's position on t

Unlikely but possible.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

3. Why is it possible? If I know it why doesn't he?

He drops the ball WAY too often by not knowing shit like that.

[lonestarnot]

8. No one called Howard fucking omnipotent! That's God's work! Lay off

Howard! He's the MAN!

[Proud2BAmurkin]

11. Omnipotent? I know Clinton thinks Bush blundered so why

doesn't Howard Dean know it?

[XemaSab]

123. But... but...

I thought Howard WAS God....

[K-W]

36. That is unforgiveable. How does he not know Clinton's position.

The biggest living figure in the party and Dean doesnt know what he thinks about the war?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

65. I've heard Clinton state his position in tons of interviews

I don't get why Dean didn't know the fact that CLINTON HAS SAID IRAQ WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED in an administration that knew what it was doing.

[madeline_con]

2. "Howard Dean SUCKED on Hardball"

Everyone sucks on Hardball. I've yet to see a guest get a word in edgewise, with Chris' non-stop blabber.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

5. He could have knocked it out of the park by saying

"You're wrong Chris. President Clinton has said on many occasions that he would have LET THE INSPECTIONS WORK. That's what an intelligent president who's leveling with the American people would have done. THIS president KICKED OUT THE INSPECTIONS apparently because he was AFRAID they wouldn't find WMD and he wouldn't have a pretext for war"

Instead he just said duhhh..i don't know why they haven't called it a blunder.

[madeline_con]

15. It's hard to talk to Matthews.

He'll ask a question and then keep amending it ad nauseum and WILL NOT SHUT UP!

Then, as the guest is trying to recover, on to the next question.

:banghead:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

20. That's his job. He did have time to answer, he just dropped the ball

"I don't know why I'm the only Democrat who thinks it is a blunder" was basically what he said. worst answer possible.

[madeline_con]

35. Point taken.

I can't watch Matthews because he usually has a running monologue going.

I shouldn't presume to know how it went down this time. :)

[Guaranteed]

7. It's not TRUE!!

I don't know what the fuck this OP is trying to pull.

And I'm trying not to call you nasty names, Proud2BAmurkin. LOL but I gotta say...this is NOT one of your best posts.

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Only time

I've seen that is when they have majority republicans on there and they're all agreeing with each other and pumping up Bush.

[madeline_con]

42. Maybe the times I watched...

weren't representative of the way the show usually goes. Don't hate me, because I'm beautiful. :)

[Hippo_Tron]

76. Yea, Howard Dean should've just challenged Mathews to a duel

Oh wait, nevermind.

[Guaranteed]

4. MOST RIDICULOUS SHIT EVER.

That's just totally ridiculous.

Certainly noone like Clinton has said that invading Iraq was a BLUNDER on Bush's part. That has never happened, lol.

And it's not funny, either. I shouldn't laugh.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

10. So "Bush should have let the inspectors continue their work"

isn't the same as saying it's a BLUNDER for the obvious reason that if they continued no WMD would be found and we never would have gone in.

A mistake like pulling out the inspectors which led to an UNNECESSARY invasion and 1700 dead soldiers is called a BLUNDER.

[LSK]

13. CLINTON WILL GO ON TWEETYS SHOW AND SAY BLUNDER THEN??

YEAH RIGHT, DREAM ON!!!

[Proud2BAmurkin]

Narrowing it to the word "BLUNDER" is Matthews' game and Dean took

the bait.

[Guaranteed]

25. No, I think he offered it on his own, actually.

I don't think Matthews used the word "blunder" before Dean did.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

29. Dean used Blunder. Matthews said he was the only one to call it one...

Matthews asked why all the other Democrats were "WITH THE PRESIDENT". You see he changed the word to a DIFFERENT PHRASE and Dean let him. Dean said duh, I don't know.

[Guaranteed]

31. Yeah. That's different than what you just said.

You said that MATTHEWS offered up the word "blunder" and that Dean took it, and THEN Matthews went after the other Dems.

Totally not what happened.

Dean said that Bush BLUNDERED on his own. And he was right. And then Tweety tried to follow up on the other Dems, and Dean avoided.

WHAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

45. No I said DEAN got hung up on Matthews "blunder" trick

and instead of Dean saying how "top democrats" agree with him that it's a blunder he let Matthews say not only that they didn't call it a blunder but they were "with the president.

[Guaranteed]

54. No, you said that MATTHEWS narrowed it down to the word...

as if Dean was unprepared to defend it. He was totally prepared. He offered it, he knew what he was saying, and he knows that no one else has said it, or anything near it.

Tweety actually asked a good question, and Dean rightly avoided it.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

67. No..i said narrowing it is Chris Matthews GAME. If Dean stated

Clinton's position Matthews would have said "well he didn't say Blunder" but it would be too late. Instead Dean let Matthews go from "they didn't say blunder" to "they all say they're WITH the president"

[Guaranteed]

74. Well, you know....on that point....

Publicly, they are.

None of them, but a select few, has said it was a BLUNDER. Tweety was referring to the POLICY of regime change in Iraq, at all costs.

Dean disagreed with that policy, and while others may have thought that we should better equip our troops or have a bigger international coalition before going in, that's not disagreeing with the policy.

The whole thing was totally truthful, unfortunately.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

85. Clinton's position is that the war shouldn't have happened

and didn't need to happen. A blunder by an Idiot Son that Clinton himself or probably another Democratic president wouldn't have committed. That's the point a DNC chairman should make.

[Guaranteed]

91. No it's not. That's not true.

Give me a link where he says that he's against regime change.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

95. You're playing Matthews game but the fact is

that Clinton has clearly said HE would have let the inspectors do their jobs and everyone knows what that would have led to.

As for regime change, who WASN'T for a regime change?

Being for "regime change" is different from invading the country to make it happen. Clinton obviously wasn't "for regime change" the way you say or he would have invaded Iraq himself. Clinton's position was gee we hope the regime changes, Saddam is a bad man.

He knew regime change wasn't worth war and he knows that Idiot Son BLUNDERED.

[Guaranteed]

99. It would have led to the same thing, as long as the sabre-rattling was

allowed, and the policy of regime change was agreed to.

I wasn't for regime change at all costs. We were in the middle of the war on terror, for Christ's sake. We needed to deal with Osama bin LADEN, not Saddam Hussein. Saddam was no threat.

Those who you are defending have not said that, as Dean has, and they most definitely didn't say that in the run-up to the war. They said that Saddam needed to be taken care of, one way or another.

[Guaranteed]

96. Look, let me spell out what Dean has said that the others haven't:

Dean said tonight that the cost to our nation in lives, money, reputation, and military strength were JUST NOT WORTH the results of the war itself. While the regime may have been changed, not only were there MASSIVE miscalculations on the part of the neocons, in any case what it cost us wasn't appropriate in LIGHT of the fact that we were already fighting against REAL TERRORISTS.

Iraq, and regime change in Iraq, was a MASSIVE DISTRACTION that we didn't need while we were (and ARE) dealing with Al Qaeda. And all those who didn't understand it in THOSE terms- as opposed to the "international support" terms, or the "equipping the troops" terms, or "sending enough troops," terms, just didn't get it. And no other Dems, other than those who voted against the war, made those kinds of statements.

Dean spoke the truth tonight. It's unfortunate, but what he said is true. Others would NOT say it was a BLUNDER, like he did- they've quite definitely already said otherwise, for YEARS.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

102. Do you think it's good that Matthews could make it look like

Dean was the only TOP DEMOCRAT who thinks the invasion was a "blunder" especially when that's not even true? What about that Matthews was able to make it look like "top democrats are with the president".

Dean let Matthews get away with saying that unless the "top democrats" state "it's not worth it" (your words) they don't think it was a blunder.

A lot of "top democrats" are in areas where saying "it's not worth it" would KILL them politically so they have to avoid those words while saying the same thing.

But NO ONE can say that when someone says "I would have let the inspectors do their jobs" (and so the war would never have happened) isn't saying it's a BLUNDER.

[Guaranteed]

106. No, I think our Democratic leaders should have protected their integrity.

Yes, I think it's messed up as hell that Tweety has the opportunity to say something like that. To be able to single out one freaking Democrat as being right, while the rest were wrong- that's FUCKED UP.

But that's why you do the right thing in the first place. Because years down the line, you're going to get caught if you don't.

My guess is that our Democratic leadership is going to inch their way over to Dean's position, once again, and their past statements will get camouflaged somehow with their present positions. The DLC folks are going to have a helluva time doing that, but more Kerry-type people, the people who have been in-between the in-betweens and the hardliners, should be alright.

And, no, it wouldn't kill any of them politically to come out strongly in favor of our NATIONAL DEFENSE, as is Dean's main theme. It could hurt them if they're suddenly changing their minds on things, though. They need to show leadership, forethought, and principles.

But, if they're having trouble, my advice would be to focus on those who ATTACKED US ON 9/11. Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. If they're having problems, let people know that they actually want to protect our country and those who live here.

[Goldmund]

64. Here's the problem:

Dean says "blunder".

Matthews pulls out of his ass that Dean's use of the word "blunder" instead of one of its many synonyms or charactarizations that mean exactly that, is some kind of a fucking epochal event. He even said "Blunder, that's a BIG word!", doing this faux act between compliment and derision.

Then he established a near-explicit dychotomy: you either have specifically used the word "blunder" to refer to the Iraq war, or you're "with the President" ("Why have no other Dems used the word Blunder? Clinton, Lieberman, Biden are all with the president on this").

Instead of demolishing this false dychotomy, by saying "they've said X, and they've said Y, and what does that mean if not 'blunder'?", he took the bait and shrugged his shoulders. He couldn't think of a Democrat with the same choice of vocabulary, and Chris got away with saying that other Democrats are "with the president".

Mind you, this was right after he asked Dean if he thinks his words still have the same power they did "back when he was clearly anti-war".

[Guaranteed]

68. I honestly don't think most viewers are going to see what happened

anything like that.

I think most of them understood that Dean was telling the truth, and that Tweety was asking Dean why the rest of the Dems weren't telling the truth as well.

The way you put it was awful complicated.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

71. He could have defended himself AND the rest of the democrats

And viewers would think Dean was telling the truth AND he wasn't some looney out there on the fringe by himself when all the other democrats were in lockstep with idiot son

[Guaranteed]

79. No, because that actually would have been a lie.

See above, #74. :)

[Goldmund]

100. I don't think it was that complicated

It only appears complex because I tried to break down a basically intuitive process into explicit, tangible steps. I don't think that the average viewer actually saw it in that kind of context; I actually didn't either when I first saw it, it only tickled me wrong and bothered me so then I gave some thought to trying to figure out what about it was bothering me.

I think that whenebver you try to beak down an intuitive communication or process into little tangible steps, you'll get something much more complex than what you had when you started. Think about driving, try breaking that down into tangibilities. Or, recognizing faces, all the geometric and mathematical steps, all the measurements and proportions your brain has to calculate in order to recognize someone out of thousands of basically similar faces. Only very recently have they been able to reproduce anything approaching that in a computer.

Same here. These kinds of games happen all the time, that's how TV propaganda works. When people try to analyze it and break it down, it seems complex and sounds kinda tinhatty. But these fuckers do that stuff all the time: the particular method of establishing false dychotomies is a very popular propaganda tactic. "You're with us or against us", for example, is an extreme and vulgar manifestation of that tactic. "Do you want more money in your pocket?" as an argument for tax cuts; as if opposing tax cuts means wanting less money in your pocket. It's everywhere. Literally every time I see a talking head on the teevee, there is some kind of a false dychotomy brought up or constructed; it's propaganda 101.

I think that while the average viewer may not have explicitly been aware of it, he or she came away with the idea that Dean is the black sheep of the Democratic party, while most other Democrats are "with the President on this" -- a phrase he used several times. Only Dean thinks it was a blunder. Not even he could think of another Democrat who has said that; according to the slyly established dychotomy, the other Democrats are with the President. And that the mainstream position is, therefore, to be with the President.

[Guaranteed]

101. Read my other posts. What he said was right on.

I should have responded similarly to you to begin with.

[Goldmund]

103. Huh?

What do you mean "you should have responded similarly to me to begin with"?

I have read your other posts.

[Guaranteed]

107. You said it was a false dichotomy. It wasn't. nt

[Goldmund]

108. So, you agree that one has either used the word 'blunder' refering to Iraq

or one is "with the President on this"?

[Guaranteed]

109. They were referring to the policy of "regime change,"

which our Democratic leadership (Clintons, Biden, Lieberman, all the rest) has for the most part agreed with Bush on, while disagreeing with his "methodology' (not enough international support/troops/troops not well-equipped enough).

Dean said that in the middle of the war on terror, the policy of regime change was BAD JUDGMENT. Tying up hundreds of thousands of troops, spending billions of dollars and destroying our good name in attacking someone who DIDN'T THREATEN US while those who do threaten us, Al Qaeda, run about, is bad policy.

No other Democrats said that, except for perhaps those who voted against the war to begin with.

Anything else?

[Goldmund]

116. You're ignoring the dychotomy

I didn't say that most establishment Democrats have gone as far in their opposition to the war, or been as explicit about its progress, or have the same view of how Bush got us into the war. That's what you proved, and you're right about that.

BUT to say that they're "with the President" was the other choice in this binary world. And the phrase wasn't used carelessly: it was hammered over and over and over. Currently, the main policy debate centers around how to handle the conflict from now on -- benchmarks, timetable, withdrawal, staying the course are the phrases of the current political chatter. That's what the current dialogue is centered around, not around whether the war was originally bad judgement.

And in that main debate, most democrats are not "with the President".

[Guaranteed]

117. No, they were talking about regime change.

In that regard, the dichotomy was correct.

They were with the president as far as regime change, and the overall worth of regime change in light of the war on terror, is concerned. That's the context of what they were talking about.

Look over the tape. That's what they were discussing.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

70. Damn. You nailed it. nt

.

[Guaranteed]

19. No, actually, that's nowhere near the same thing. Clearly.

Saying that the U.N. inspectors should have been allowed to stay is VERY, VERY different from saying that invading Iraq was extremely detrimental to our own national security, economy, and reputation with the world (see my sig line- same line of reasoning).

[Proud2BAmurkin]

26. Clinton said the invasion didn't need to happen. That's a blunder.

A huge blunder that Dean could have said the former DEMOCRATIC president would not have committed.

[Guaranteed]

32. No no no! You've entirely missed Dean's point.

Watch the 1/2 hour again.

Or, alternatively, study my sig. Again.

Just the fact that the war didn't NEED to happen isn't the blunder- although it's certainly part of it. ;)

[LSK]

6. did you watch what I watch or are you just a Dean hater???

Go to dembloggers.com and watch it again, maybe you didnt watch the right program???

"He accepted Chris Matthews lie instead of saying that top Democrats like Clinton ARE SAYING IT'S A BLUNDER."

Tweety's point was that Dean is the only one who is saying that Iraq is a blunder and I dont see that being very far from the truth.

[Guaranteed]

12. It's entirely the truth, and Dean, in fact, went WAY OUT OF HIS WAY

to AVOID THE QUESTION.


Dean was so on tonight that it was AMAZING. One of the best half-hours of television I have EVER seen.

Calling out ChimpCo left and right....just superb. SUPERB.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

16. If Dean knew the facts then Matthews wouldn't have been able to make

him look like one lone looney way out on the left. Democrats including Clinton have said it was a blunder but Dean just accepted Matthews' big fat lie.

[LSK]

23. AND WHATS CLINTONS TAKE ON DSM???

OH YEAH, THATS RIGHT, HE DIDNT KNOW ABOUT IT WHEN HE WAS ON LETTERMANS SHOW A FEW WEEKS AGO.

HE IS A BUSHBOT NOW, DEAL WITH IT.

HOWARD DEAN FIGHTS OUR FIGHT TODAY AND YOU JUMP ON HIM. WONDERFUL.

[still_one]

41. frankly the way Clinton has been kissing the bushes asses lately

I wouldn't necessarily jump on board with what clinton did or did NOT say

A few days ago, he was with the bushes celebrating

frankly, if clinton had any self-respect he should not get together with the bushes, especially after what they did to him

[Desert Liberal]

105. I know I sure as HELL wouldn't party with the Bushes

Egads! I'd get cooties! Besides the fact that I could never EVER look at myself in the mirror again without knowing I had sold out my priciples. Screw that.
I think if I ever met Chimpy and he tried to shake my hand, I'd have to just give him one of those looks. You know the one I'm talking about-that 'you are lower than clamlife sucking up oxygen somebody WORTH A SHIT could be breathing' look. Complete disdain and scorn. Fucking asshole! And then I guess I'd just have to call him the preceding epithet to his chimplike, ugly, stupid face!

[Guaranteed]

89. That's just not true.

They've all agreed with Bush's policy of regime change at all costs, whether through the U.N. or international support or equipping our troops better or sending more or whatever. It's all the same.

Dean's saying WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN THERE. You CAN'T find the equivalent of that, I'm afraid, from our Democratic leadership, other than those who originally voted against the war.

[Reptilian]

9. Bill Clinton has been converted to a reptilian just like Bush

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

49. converted? he always was one

that's why he passed NAFTA

[Jim Sagle]

14. Not true. Not helpful either.

[gumby]

17. Saw it earlier and thought he was pretty good.

It seemed to me that Tweety kept trying to get Dean to fight with other Dems and then fight with Repukes. Dean didn't take the bait.

I thought he stayed on message by repeating Bush's 'blunders' and being positive by talking about building the Party without being pulled into Tweety's food fight.

[DisassemblingHisLies]

110. I agree.

Just a reminder to those who may have forgotten: Matthews' son worked on Howard Dean's presidential campaign.

I don't think Matthews is against Howard Dean; in fact, he gave him a lot of exposure tonight. I think Matthews' game is devil's advocate. I don't care for this style, myself. I'd much prefer interviews handled the way David Gregory handled them last week instead of Matthews' gotcha style.

[Gloria]

21. I thought he should have mentioned Clark, who called it an "elective"

war...But that doesn't mean I would have been right....

You know why he wouldn't? He's not going to place a wedge between the high profile Democrats. Clark is probably the only one of the mob (other than Dean) who didn't totally cave for the war originally. That makes Clark the "oddball" and the powers that be are not going to want Dean separating Clark out from the mob. This is no reflection on Dean--he did the right thing by staying out of what is still an Achilles heel for most of the favored candidates....



On edit: Kucinich, of course.....thanks to poster below for reminding me!!! (And I went to see Kucinich, too...aging brain syndrome)

[still_one]

22. Dean cannot speak for Clinton

When Dean say it was a blunder he was right

By the way most of the democrats in congress have NOT critisized the administration on this war.

The true patriots are:

Boxer
Feingold
Kucinisch(sic)
Byrd
Dean
and others, but most have been silent like sheep being led to the slaughter

matthews is a puke anyway


I cannot understand why any progressive or liberal watches the MSM today?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

30. Matthews asked Dean to explain why all the democrats "are with Bush"

Dean just let Matthews lie stand out there, that the top Democrats "are with the president". Sucked.

[dweller]

40. thank you for including Kucinich ...

a true patriot indeed.

dp

[still_one]

47. sorry I spelled it wrong

and you are right, one who tells it like it is

One may not always agree with Dennis, but he has more integrity in his little finger than 90% of Congress has in there whole bodies

[OctOct1]

24. Chris is the jerk, Not Dean

Think of all the questions Chris asked.
This one said this. That one said this.
Over and over Chris was trying to get Dean to say ANYTHING Bad about someone (Like a leach sucking on a log.
95% of the time Dean held his ground and did not slink to the Lowest of scum.
I did not completely love his answer on this either, but he did well with the rest of the crap thrown at him

[Guaranteed]

28. And he didn't say anything about any other Dem! This thread is

garbage.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

34. Dean can defeat Chris the jerk by being INFORMED

Dean let Chris claim the top Democrats are "with the president" because Dean didn't know that Clinton has said in practically EVERY INTERVIEW that "I would have let the inspections continue"

[BurtWorm]

27. Itching for a fight?

;)

[shance]

33. Yep.

n/t

[Guaranteed]

37. Shit, I'll give it to him. nt

[Proud2BAmurkin]

39. No. Hoping someone tells Dean to get off his ass and find out

find out two things. What "top democrats" really said about Iraq and HOW TO NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING LIAR REPUKE MATTHEWS SAYS as the truth.

[Guaranteed]

44. What you saw tonight is the best you're ever going to get on national TV.

Enjoy it.

Maybe even give him some credit. That would be great, too.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

50. He was ok on other points but that exchange canceled it out.

left the pursuadable part of the audience thinking "top democrats are with the president" and "dean is the only looney who thinks it's a blunder". Sucked.

[still_one]

the so-called top democrats, i.e. "biden", reed, etc

talk out of both sides of their mouths

you don't really know where they stand

don't blame that on dean

[Guaranteed]

63. No, it was more like "Dean's the one dealing in reality

and the rest of the Democrats just don't have his cobbles."

That was Tweety's point, although Dean didn't go along with it.

Did you notice that Tony Blankley wouldn't even refute Dean? He even ended up saying that Bush blundered himself later on.

[still_one]

52. "top democrats"

does it bother you that bill clinton has been very close to the bushes lately? Especially after what they did to him

[PassingFair]

77. "top democrats" redux

does it bother proudamerican that Bill Clinton CURRENTLY HOLDS NO ELECTIVE POST? He is not a "top democrat".
His wife, however, blithely voted FOR the IWR....

[still_one]

90. That is my problem also

I will never vote for a candidate for President who voted for the Iraq war

I remember Viet Nam

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

Note, I can say it...

[BurtWorm]

56. Why don't you tell him yourself?

Granted, it may not be as immediately gratifying as getting into the faces of people who actually like Dean here.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

72. I don't know him nt

.

[BurtWorm]

75. And you think someone attracted to your thread by the title who does

know him will convey your message to him? Interesting.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

92. If they think it's constructive

why not?

[WatchWhatISay]

38. I thought I remember him saying I dont know, why dont you ask him (Clinton

I thought he held his ground pretty well. I didnt feel like Matthews won any "gotcha" moments, and in fact showed some respect for Dean.

At the end when Chris tried to go after Dean for his "Republicans arent hard working people", Dean was actually able to explain that he was talking about Repub leadership in relation to the Ohio election, not appreciating how hard it was for working people to stand in line for 8+ hours to vote. Chris seemed satisfied with that, and Dean said that he realized that lots of Republicans were hard working Americans and he wouldnt have said different because he would like them to become hard working Americans who vote Democratic.

Compared to interviews with former DNC Chair Terry McCauliffe, you really don't think Dean does a better job of speaking for us? Really? Just the fact that he gets so much MORE press than McCauliffe did is important. The press always made it look like McCauliffe was only about elitist fundraising, and thats all they were ever willing to talk about. I havent heard Dean say a thing that embarrasses me. (Only a few things that Judy Woodruff types tell me I SHOULD be embarrassed by.)

Too many Dems are still letting them tell us what we ought to think.

[seabeyond]

48. actually he said a lot of dems have said bush has messed up

hardball interupted and said, well they didnt say the war was a blunder. none of them have said it is a blunder like you.

well no, they have said it was a blunder, just that bush has fucked up every step of the way

at that point of tweety yelling about the others, and blunder, dean told him to get them on his show and ask them

[Proud2BAmurkin]

55. he let the central point stand when other dems DO think it's a blunder

He let it seem like they were only nitpicking on "how it was carried out" and that's bullshit

[seabeyond]

81. i think you are doing a bit of nitpicking n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

43. I disagree I think he did a great job overall!......link to video here....

http://www.dembloggers.com/story/2005/6/29/175443/149

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

46. maybe if bill would quit kissing poppy's ass, dean wouldn't

lump him in with the BFEE

clinton is a self-serving yuppie POS and did not stand up for the people of iraq and never will. he's too busy calculating his wife's run for the presidency to give a shit about right and wrong

[still_one]

61. i hate to say it, but there is a lot of truth in what you are saying

[LSK]

51. go watch the video again

Dean says things like "wrong for America, gross misjudgement, grave situation, in a terrible position", etc etc. HE TRASHES BUSH BIGTIME. REPEATEDLY! During the whole interview!!

And you equate that as being the same as:

"Former president Bill Clinton said he agreed with President Bush's decision to confront Iraq about its potential weapons programs, but thought the administration erred in starting a war in 2003 rather than allowing United Nations weapons inspectors longer to carry out their work."

snip

" Noting that he has "repeatedly defended President Bush against the left" on Iraq, Clinton dismissed the notion that the Iraq war was principally about protecting petroleum or financial interests.

Instead, he asserts that Bush acted primarily for ideological reasons and that the president was under the sway of Vice President Cheney and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz. "We went in there because he bought the Wolfowitz-Cheney analysis" that defeating Iraq would help transform the greater Middle East toward democracy. "


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54905-2004Jun19.html

HOW YOU DONT SEE A DIFFERENCE IN TONE AND EMPHASIS IS BEYOND ME.

MAYBE YOU NEED TO BE MORE INFORMED.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

59. yeah but what good is Dean saying what DEAN thinks when

Matthews just basically said "well you're a loon and no other democrat agrees with you" and Dean let that go.

[LSK]

66. because thats been the story with Dean for a while

Its pretty much common knowledge that Dean has been the lone voice of reason and ONLY RECENTLY have other Dems started to wake up in regards to Iraq.

Maybe you remember Kerrys blunder last year when asked if he would change his vote on IWR and Kerry said he would not change his vote. That was little over a year ago.

And from what I have seen from Clinton, he is trying to play both sides. Him and Hillary are turning into bigtime moderates and that is not going to win anything anymore.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

83. Good quote.

"Maybe you remember Kerrys blunder last year when asked if he would change his vote on IWR and Kerry said he would not change his vote. That was little over a year ago."

[Guaranteed]

114. That's not what Tweety said. Tweety knew he was right. nt

[KharmaTrain]

53. When Will The Word "Liar" Be Embargoed?

Is there some law prohibiting its use by Democrats? Is it like using the "n" or "l" word or something? Instead we get "mislead" or "less than candid" or "wasn't forthcoming" or "isn't totally honest". What's wrong with using the word LIE and LIARs and use it often, regular and consitently.

You know that if this had been Clinton's mess, there'd be no hesitancy from the right wing to call him a LIAR and worse at every instance. Dr. Dean got slapped for speaking the truth...and now appears so damn measured it comes off tepid. While I think petty shots don't help, it's time to roll out the word LIE and impress it on this regime...since it's the one glue that holds that corrupt kleptocracy together.

[EFerrari]

57. Dean did a wonderful job. So well, that Blankley was forced

to accept his terms and try to weasel out of them.

He was AWESOME.

[NYCGirl]

62. That, just by itself, was totally worth the price of admission. NT

[Crazy Guggenheim]

58. I wouldn't defend Bill Clinton either.

[dsc]

60. Please site where Bill Clinton called Iraq a blunder

And yes I want that exact word since Dean did state that several Democrats including Clinton had criticised the war. Matthews had the word blunder in his head so blunder needs to be in your quote.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

80. Here you go

"What would you have done differently"

CLINTON: "I would have given the inspectors a chance to do their jobs"

An intelligent person concludes that the inspectors would then NOT FIND WMD and the invasion would NOT TAKE PLACE.

Therefore Bush BLUNDERED by not avoiding an unnecessary war.

As for using the word "blunder" that's Chris Matthews' game and I don't play it and neither should Dean.

[LSK]

86. way to quote your sources n/t

[Guaranteed]

111. That is TOTALLY NOT THE SAME THING.

That's not disagreeing with the policy.

[dsc]

121. Matthews is right and you are wrong

First, Clinton has repeatedly and on record, said that there were WMD. So he couldn't possibly have believed that WMD wouldn't be found unless he repeatedly lied.

Second, you don't give a link or date for your citation. Without it, it is impossible to know what context he was speaking in. But, I have never heard him outright condemn the war but instead condemn the way it was run. That is the point that Matthews, admittedly inartfully, is making. People like Kennedy and Byrd, who Dean should have cited, have been making the criticism that the war was a bad idea, Kerry and Clinton have made the criticism that it has been executed badly.

[orleans]

69. maybe howard forgot what clinton said in light of this:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

73. lol.

[LSK]

78. im sure Bill is telling George right then

"Boy your son made some gross errors in judgement! He has put us in a terrible position! Your son has not been truthful with the American people and thats a FACT! W is not doing a good job in defending the USA."


Yeah, Im sure he is saying just that.

[dweller]

87. he didn't say 'blunder' he said 'blender'

as in: "spin that margarita in the blunder for me, will ya?"

dp

[still_one]

97. no, I think he said it was a buffet

as in boy I am really hungry

[Proud2BAmurkin]

82. lol n/t

n/t

[Miss Chybil]

84. Nobody watches that shit anyway.

The only people who watch those shows are political junkies - like us - who have already staked out their position. Don't worry, if he sucked, or not. Nobody will notice. And, the few who do, won't remember it in a week.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

88. good point

the sooner msnbc dies the better

[WatchWhatISay]

94. Thats just the problem

They dont listen to the whole conversation. They just listen long enough to hear:

McCain has a is sort of looney from some sort of post traumatic stress disorder left over from Viet Nam

Cynthia McKinney is a taitor, giving aid to the enemy

Kuchinich is a leftist whacko for insisting that we get out of Iraq immmeadiately (even though much of America now agrees)

Dean is unable to control himself.

[dhinojosa]

93. Did he say what it tasted like?

the hardball that is...

:rofl:

[OctOct1]

98. There is a reason for Deans hesitation

Tin foil hat is on now.
Clinton playing golf with Daddy Bush.
Clark on Faux.

If you can't beat them, join them.
What better way to reach out, change and influence people.

Dean knows this and did not want to put any waves in the water for Clinton.
Clinton = Most popular Pres.
Playing golf with Dad of the most unpopular Pres.
Something is going on here and Dean knows.

Sometimes you have to play the game to get things done.
Just my crazy thoughts - late at night

[OHdem10]

104. I watched the Hardball show and thought

Dean was great.

Could it be that What Chris was really saying---Our Leaders such Clinton
Biden Senator Clinton, Lieberman, are in fact in agreement with the
Bush Policy ON IrAQ. iNFACTFROM THE BEGGINING THEy sUPPORTED THE
Bush Policy. They do not believe he has handled it well.

Chris was criticizing the fact they will not openly take a stand sgainst
the war in Iraq as Dean does. It is simple and clear--Many of our
Leaders are Hawks in Foreign Policy.This is their position.--just as
Dean has another position.

Dean is correct. Bush has us over there with mno good option.

[Guaranteed]

112. Dean was OUTSTANDING.

Quite literally.

[Zenlitened]

113. Dumb-ass thread of the night. To say Dean "sucked" on Hardball...

... is just a complete mischaracterization. Thought he mis-handled a question? Could have been a bit sharper with an answer here and there? Fine. But to say he "sucked" just trashes any credibility you might hope to posess. Get hold of yourself.

[Guaranteed]

115. He was 9.5 out of 10.

The best you're ever going to see.

[brook]

119. Thanks.

You summed it up for me. Some folks remind me of my 2 year old great-grandaughter. She gets bent out of shape over dumb things. She' at least has the excuse that's she's 2 years old. Difference is, she generally responds to reason.

Howard Dean speaks for so many of us. Given the reality of how the world works, he probably isn't destined for higher office - but he is using his position to 'ring the bell'. Hopefully, folks will listen.

[eleny]

118. I disagree

He was speaking to Bush supporters. Dean kept hammering away at the administration by pointing out that they don't know what they're doing. That was Dean's core message. He went at it like hammering a nail, hitting it over and over and over. And he showed how Bush f'd up.

Dean wasn't talking to you, to folks like us here at DU. He was speaking to Bush supporters who hate to lose and hate a bumbling loser. And this is how Dean portrayed the administration. He knows what he's doing.

I disagree about staying and somehow fixing things in Iraq. There is no fix. My reasons are pretty well summed up in Sidney Blumenthal's Salon.com article of today. But I know that as we're chipping away at this administration, we can also hammer at any Dem administration because we're it's supporters. We have more clout with any Dem than you would imagine.

It may be too late for all of us since the "blunder" may be the end of us. But tonight, Dean did well considering his mission for tonight.

Now, I'm done here. I don't want to argue but just posted to share my thoughts with you. Please take the last word if you wish.

[tishaLA]

120. You're right

But I think he should have pointed out that many Democrats have expressed a variety of concerns about the Iraq "mission," including most of the leading Democrats.

[blm]

122. I think Dean did well considering Tweety was baiting him constantly.

Matthews was BEGGING for Dean to lash out at Clinton and others.

Dean didn't play along, even though you may not like his answer, he did well under the cxonstant barrage from Matthews.

[LittleClarkie]

124. I'm not terribly thrilled with this stuff when it's Kerry or Clark

I don't know why I'd be thrilled with it when it's Dean.

He said what he said, he did the best he could, he didn't say it the same way you might have, but I don't think that means his overall performance sucked because of one misspeak.

It might be more accurate to say "I wish Dean would have said THIS in answer to that line of questioning" but I highly doubt the man's entire performance on the show sucked because of that answer.

[ChiciB1]

125. This Is Weird!!

One day we're all talking about how Dean kicked butt, as opposed to other Dems. And now this thread saying he sucked!

I'm soooooo confused!

[dogday]

126. Did Clinton Say the Exact Word Blunder?

In politics, words are everything, I posted that a couple of Democratic Senators have criticized Bush's policies, but I don' know of any that has called it a blunder. A Quagmire? A Series of Mistakes? I would of done it differently.

So when Dean did an uhhh uhhh, he was trying to run through his head any of our Senators who might of even said the exact word. This is politics, where every word has a meaning, and every word could be your undoing....

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. Dean was excellent on Hardball.

Go, Dean, Go. The natives aren't liking it much. Funny how far they've fallen from Democratic principals and values. Clinton and The DLC lost me a long time ago. :hi:

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

128. And here I thought there'd be pornographic photos to follow.

:spank: