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All right, two things (about Howard Dean, I mean).

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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:08 AM
Original message
All right, two things (about Howard Dean, I mean).
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 10:21 AM by Plaid Adder
All this stuff about how he's frightening/offending the "establishment Democrats." Well, I'll tell you why that is.

Whatever you think about the efficacy of what he's doing, nobody can deny that it's different. The reason he's DNC chairman in the first place is that the grassroots party workers realized that what the leadership did during the 2004 election cycle didn't work. So Dean is doing something different. May work, may not, but at least it's not the same shit they were doing in 2004.

Which means:

1) Of course people who were the leadership in 2004 think what he's doing is crazy. That's because it's the opposite of what they would do. That's not news, it's inevitable.

2) If what Dean is doing actually works...then it will mean that what the "establishment Democrats" were doing before was wrong, and that it probably cost us the election. Nobody wants to be convicted of that in front of the party and the media.

OF COURSE the people who though the 2004 strategy made sense think that Dean's doesn't. That's got nothing to do with Dean; it's to do with their own sense of themselves and the amount they have invested in doing things their way. And really, you can't blame them for standing up for the way they've always done it, because they must believe it's the right way or they wouldn't keep doing it.

BUT...let me just say that if the "establishment Democrats" could get the fucking job done, then John Kerry would be president right now. And he's not. So SOMETHING has got to be done differently.

Dean is doing it his way and who knows, maybe it will work. Maybe it won't, but at least someone will have EXPERIMENTED. We talk about how the Republican leadership just keeps making the same bullshit mistakes about Iraq, etc., and can't adjust even though what they're doing never seems to work. Well, our party leadership has been in the same kind of a rut, and something's got to get them out of it.

We're so afraid of being attacked in the media that we're afraid to try out new things. Look, folks, we will ALWAYS be attacked in the media. That's just the way it is now. It drives me crazy to see people talking about how if we just do this or that then the media will see how lovable we are and start reporting accordingly. No. We are never going to get the same kind of coverage the Republican Party gets from the mainstream media because we are not currently cracking the whip on the naked backs of their corporate masters. Dean knows, I hope anyway, that he is working with a media machine that is permanently set in "attack" mode, and figures, well, if they're gonna attack us, it may as well be for something good.

You gotta go at this beast with every possible strategy and hope that one of them works. The 'moderate' compromise on the filibuster has resulted in some sucky-ass judicial appointments but it may have done some other kinds of damage and if so, well, you take the bad with the good. But moderation alone does not accomplish anything when you are dealing with a juggernaut like the Bush administration.

In our household when we complain about some long-standing injustice, one of us will say to the other, jokingly, "Come the revolution..." Well, the revolution has come--but it's not the one we were looking for. THEY are having a revolution, while our party is standing around wondering what happened.

Someone has got to fight. People whose talents lie in mediation and compromise, I salute you, and good luck doing your part, but SOMEONE has got to fight or we look like we don't have anything to fight for.

After 2004 I am done with waiting for men to rescue me. Dean is not the messiah come to lead the party out of Egypt and nobody else is either. They are all just career politicians who are trying to do their jobs as effectively as they know how to do it. Instead of wailing about how people are saying mean things about us in public because of him, why don't we just watch and see whether this works or not. It's too early to tell.

What we were already doing in 2004 did not work for us. There will have to be a change. Dean may or may not have hit on the way to make that change but if we are scared of change PERIOD then we are in really deep shit, because we sure need it.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Superbly said, Plaid Adder.
:applause:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. excellent post-- kicking...
...and recommending!
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
75. ya hit the nail on the head: The Progressive Dems would say the same....
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. Sooner or later you get tired of being hit
It's high past time to hit back, you're right if the leadership had worked in the past we wouldn't be out here in the wilderness wondering what the fuck happened.
Go Howard kick the son of a bitches in the balls, I'm tired of showing up at a gunfight with a knife. If people are bitching then it's working, lets go.
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
55. The republican party reminds me of "Biff" the bully
Edited on Thu Jun-09-05 04:32 PM by Chipper Chat
from Back to the Future. His "what are you looking at Butthead" comment is descriptive of the way the Pubs react to any daring criticism from Dems like Dean. I see Dean as our "Marty McFly" - more than willing and gutsy enough to stand up for the truth, even if it takes some abrasive jabs and some risk to his physical being. So Biff (republicans, MSM, queasy democrats, and Ann Coulter) I say: "TAKE YOUR DAMN HANDS OFF HOWARD" and let the truth prevail!
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Paul Dlugokencky Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #55
93. nice analogy!
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you! Some perspective has been sorely needed!
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. if people would stop responding to the 'someone new attacks Dean'
threads, they would fall of the page and stop being posted. There are some here who love to fuel that fire. Until they are ignored to death, we will see this garbage ad nauseam.
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kick
Excellent post, Plaid Adder! You are absolutely right. It's too early to know if Dean's approach will work or not, but we don't need to cut him off at the knees before he has a chance to try.

Thank you for posting this. I always enjoy reading your posts so much (although I miss reading your articles).

:hug: :woohoo: :applause:
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quisp Donating Member (926 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. Hear! Hear! n/t
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's an argument about

whether the Party is going to return to being what it was around 1990, maybe even 2000, or whether it has decided to move on.

It's an argument like the North had in January 1865, about whether to end the Civil War with a return to the status quo ante of 1860 or with complete abolition of slavery.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. Some other thoughts
There has been no substantial purge, bloodletting or mass resignations or flights as the local Dem parties moved backing Dean. Many of the DLC school have been so untouched and oblivious to real politics they don't even know they have become irrelevant under the GOP assault anyway. Anything less than being publicly cast out of the party, bell, book and candle would not affect their presumptions and even then they would not accept it.

Doing what the GOP does and rolling over the prone DLC is the practical thing to do, but not too maliciously since it fuels bitterness spite and the one thing DLC thing likes to do, bashing "old" progressive Dems.

There are some things in the DLC that need to wither away and die, mainly is anti-political functionaries and campaign planners. Hopefully under Dean they will be allowed civilly to do so without democracy dying first.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
10. David Sirota's thoughts on this today:
http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/06/myth-that-populism-a...

The Myth That Populism & Anger Lose Elections

One of the big arguments by the Beltway elite against Democrats embracing a new economic populism says a political party must always be FOR something, not just against things - and always avoid any tinge of populist anger. Joe Klein's column this week railing against populism epitomized this argument perfectly. As he wrote, "pessimism, anger and unsubtle divisiveness tend to be total nonstarters in American politics" (this line of reasoning, by the way, is not limited to Klein - it is conventional wisdom in Washington, D.C.'s elite media/political circles). Now, I'm not saying Democrats need to fully embrace a politics of "pessimism, anger and divisiveness" - but the idea that they should be so afraid of that kind of populist politics because it doesn't work just doesn't pass history's smell test.

Does anyone really believe that the modern Republican Party - which now controls all three branches of government - hasn't ascended to power on "pessimism, anger and divisiveness" and on being against things? Think about it. Their party is based on these tenets: government is bad (pessimism/against government), you are being ripped off by taxes (anger against taxes), those evil "others" - minorities, gays, immigrants, liberals, etc. - don't share your values (divisiveness/against the "other"). Similarly, Newt Gingrich's Contact With America was all about pessimism, anger and divisiveness. Hell, Tom Frank's book is ALL ABOUT the success of what he calls "backlash" conservatism. That term is another way to describe transforming people's pessimism about their situation into a populist anger against the system, and using it for the GOP's divisive purposes.

To be sure, the GOP has expertly crafted its populism in a way that allows them to raise huge amounts of corporate cash. And the new form of Democratic populism that is bubbling up will never be able to thread that kind of needle - which is why so many of the party's insiders in Washington are nervous about it, and why, in order for it to succeed, the grassroots must continue re-emerging as a significant force in Democratic politics.

But the idea that voters are inherently turned off by any form of populism because it might be construed as angry is a very, very poor argument from very, very out-of-touch people who either haven't talked to average working stiffs at the local diner, or haven't spent much time thinking about what's really happened over the last 20 to 30 years in this country.

Contemporary American political history is a history OF populism and OF the Republican Party becoming a channel for average people's (albeit often misdirected) anger. The sooner Democrats face that reality and start to become comfortable being a conduit for at least some of the anger that average Americans rightly feel at being ripped off by health care companies, high energy prices, "free" trade deals, corrupt government and corporate greed, the sooner the party will be on its way to being a more relevant force in our country's politics.


Sources:
Joe Klein on "pessimism, anger and divisiveness":
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/06/klein.tm /
Tom Frank's book:
http://www.henryholt.com/holt/whatsthematter.htm
New Democratic populism is bubbling:
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=V...


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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
50. ma-ma-ma-My Sirota!
>But the idea that voters are inherently turned off by any form of populism because it might be construed as angry is a very, very poor argument from very, very out-of-touch people who either haven't talked to average working stiffs at the local diner, or haven't spent much time thinking about what's really happened over the last 20 to 30 years in this country.<

I need this on a t-shirt. Stat. I then need to send one of those t-shirts to every Dem who's currently selling us out because we're just "toooooo angry". If they think I'm mad now, they haven't seen anything yet. Wait till * manages to confirm a Supreme Court judge that makes Falwell look like a liberal. Wait till we lose yet another Presidential election because we're "above" "partisan rhetoric and anger".

I heart David Sirota. He gets it.

Julie
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
76. YES! Its time to be FUCKING PISSED OFF
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
83. Exactly. Why do Dems pretend people want nuanced, prudent conciliation?
Do you actually know ANYBODY who gives a shit about politics who isn't at least a little teed off about something?

The problem is that Dems have let Repukes frame our current political debate to the point that many Dem "leaders" have actually now come to believe that trying to popularize core Democratic principles like tolerance, diversity, human rights, environmental and consumer protection, civil rights, economic justice, social responsibility, an even playing field, pragmatic compassion, an ethical foreign policy and governmental assistance for the neediest is a losing battle.

Many Democrat office holders don't even try any more. They just reinvent themselves to the tune of the Repuke meme machine and try to use their power of incumbency to hold on by their fingernails. Meanwhile, instead of fighting tooth and nail to reframe the Repuke-approved and selected parameters of political debate that give their otherwise shallow and transparent attacks their potency, we focus on selecting the candidates who we think are best inoculated against Repuke smears.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
11. Republicans make all sorts of statements....
mostly that are wrong and they are seldom
questioned by MSM.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
101. And nobody says a godamned word about that!
I've noticed how the Republicans can "get away" with saying ANYTHING and no mention of it. Even the Preznint. Where did we read about Bush admitting to his intention to "catapult the propaganda"?
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Ysolde Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. Yeah!
And when the Rethugs advocate violence against judges, there's no problem in the Nusak. Or how about lying about not saying something that they did say? Nothing in the Nusak. I'm so sick and tired of the Rethug lap dog press that I don't even watch or listen to it anymore. NPR was all I had here in this blood-red state, but I can't even stand that now (Wal-Mart sponsors shows!). AAGGHH!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent, Plaid!
I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks!
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yep. If you keep doing the same thing...
...you're gonna get what you always got. Needs to change. Dean is changing it. I say let him.

Democrats certainly have MORE IMPORTANT fish to fry right now than Howard Dean.
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WalrusSlayer Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
14. Totally agree
The DNC establishment tried to be the Party of Sunshine in '04 ("Jobs! Schools! Healthcare!"), and got their asses handed to them when they weren't boring the electorate into their afternoon nap. For whatever reason, the old Dem messages---or at least the old way of delivering them---just isn't resonating anymore.

So yeah, someone's gotta go into the ring swinging. Framing the debate. Forcing the other side to respond on our terms. Getting airtime in the media in a way that will make people watch and listen. All these things that we complained weren't happening for the past two years.

So now that's starting to happen, and the hand-wringing starts. :wtf:
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. Silence is golden.
I think it is important to also note the Democrats who have not entered this fray and are allowing Dean to do his own thing even if they disagree with his approach.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
16. Good Post. Thanks...Nominating!!
Howard Dean and the Democrats need to JUST KEEP ATTACKING. Force the Republicans to play DEFENSE. One of the few perks of the Minority Party is that the Party in Power must DEFEND their policies. The Minority Party NEVER needs to DEFEND anything. Just Move on to another attack! It would be POWERFUL if the Democratic Party or even some members of our Party would publicly support the Chairman of the Party. Amplification would only help. If a Democrat can't support him, they should make their comments in private to the good Doctor.


If the Republicans or the CorpoMedia start whining...Attack some MORE.
If minor mistakes are made, the record can be corrected BY THE INDIVIDUAL WHO MADE THEM if HE/SHE SO DECIDES. NO Democrat ever NEEDS TO COMMENT ON WHAT ANOTHER DEMOCRAT HAS SAID!!! When the CorpoMedia TalkingHead tries to force a Democrat into that position, all the Democrat has to do is chuckle and say, "You'll have to ask Chairman Dean about that. I wasn't there, so I can't comment except to say that he is an excellent Party Chairman!"...and THEN launch an attack on the Republicans. NEVER let them rest.

It is the Republicans who SHOULD be on the defensive EVERY FUCKING DAY!

John Kerry should have LAUGHED OUT LOUD at the Swift Boat Liars and called them a bunch of DISGUSTING LYING COWARDS NOT WORTHY OF HIS TIME (case closed)....and then DIRECTLY ATTACKED AWOL for NOT having the COURAGE to DO HIS PART!!!

GOOD on YOU Howard!!!!

WE need to keep sending messages of support to HIM from the grass roots that frightened the Establishment Dems into throwing us a bone. The MORE THEY try to undercut him, the MORE WE NEED to SUPPORT HIM, and the MORE we need to let the Establishment Dems know that we don't like it when they DIS the DOCTOR.

Howard SPEAKS FOR US!!!
YOU dis the Doctor; you DIS US!!!


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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
63. bvar22, that was awesome man!
Great ideas!
Fresh attack plan every day. God knows there are enough issues that dubby and the boys have created.

I think stirring up the compost is a good thing.

Go Dean and Plaid Adder.
:kick:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
77. And it's so Weird that we
even have to be telling them this!..but you do it so well, bvar!
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Ysolde Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
106. Great post!
And, so well said.

Our state party leader basically got kicked out by the DLC-style Dems here after he supported Dean for Chairman. And, now we have a bunch of Dems that may as well be Rethugs (we got abortion restrictions, workers comp "reform", tort "reform", and tax cuts for the wealthy all under a "Democratic" governor).

I'm working at the grassroots, but it's often demoralizing, especially here (in OK).
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
17. We need 'DEAN SPEAKS FOR ME!" bumperstickers
The leadership better get it, because this party just went through a sea change. And it's not going back.

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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
64. You're right. We do. nt
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
73. We also need "GO, HOWARD GO" bumperstickers.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
18. Right On! Here's my letter to the SF journalist:

Dear Carla,

The things that Republicans stated in your article http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/0... was more inflammatory and more abusive (Republican National Committee spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt said that Dean's comments "speak to a party that's adrift, angry and without any ideas. Because they lack any coherent agenda, Dean is the leader of a minority party resorting to wild-eyed rhetoric.'') toward us that anything Dean has yet said to date.

All Dean said was the truth. What the Republicans are saying are outrageous lies.

Republicans say reckless and specious things about Democrats practically every day and no one in the media calls them on it. They want to put out-of-control bullies in positions of power like John Bolton and the media only tamely repeats the Republican talking-point that he is "strong." Let a Democrat act like that and the media would be calling for him to be thrown in a straightjacket.

Dean stands for me - I donate money to the DNC only because of Dean. Pelosi and Feinstein and other namby-pamby Democrats had better start standing behind their chairman a little bit firmer. How can they "not agree with what he said" when he was only speaking the truth? The Republicans ARE a white , christian party - and thank you for admitting that by including the statistic that they are 82% white and christian. Wow, even I had no idea they were THAT monolithic. The fact that Democrats are only 56% white christian reinforces that the two parties differ in very significant ways.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. Good letter!
I especially like your comment: "...even I had no idea they were THAT monolithic." I, too, was surprised by the 82% stat.

I think the repubs are just po'd cuz we finlly have someone who has put on the fighting gloves, has come out of our corner swinging, & landed a square punch on their face. All I can say is it's about time!

Dean rocks.
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Thank you!nt
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Toby109 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. A suggestion for all the spineless Dems
who have responded to Dean's remark with criticism: Laugh it off. When a "reporter" asks for your response simply laugh, shrug your shoulders and say, "Well that's Howard. What're you gonna do?" Then change the subject. Sen. Dodd handled this very well yesterday on CNN in just this manner. How hard is that? The Repubs do it all the time.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
111. When Republicans are attacked, they circle the wagons
When Democrats are attacked, we circle the firing squad.

Such has been the pattern of the last 3 decades, and it must change.
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paula777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. True, true, true. What we have been doing in the past has not worked
so let Dean 'do his thing' and experiment (allthough I don't think he's experimenting, I think he's just being himself). Whatever it is, people are mad as hell and they want someone that can match thier emotion. The others (not going to name names) are so fucking afraid to say anything that they are completly ineffective and that's why they are laughed at by so many.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
21. Another recommendation .. Thank YOU.
:toast:
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nightfox02 Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. You, like Dean are DEAD on
Why be nice to a party that is kicking you in the balls and sending our boys out to die for jack?

Now is not the time for friendly bi-partisanship. Civility ceased when the republicans started becoming fascists ala Newt and started trying to cut our throats...

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. We are in the midst of a big change
Those who profited or were not affected personally by the way things have always been done, are resisting.

Hooray for us.

Great post, Plaid!
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
24. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Just those thoughts have been swirling around my brain for days and I have not been able to coherently commit them to writing. I could not agree with you more.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
25. Brilliant, beautiful, and right. Dean is making the media talk about
issues they never would if he wasn't grabbing headlines.

Dean understands that sometimes you have to hit the opposition upside the head with a board before anyone will pay attention to you.

Terry McCaulif (sp?) raised more money than any other DNC chair and we still not only lost the presidency, but lost ground in Congress.

He most definitely has shown what DOESN'T WORK.

Thanks again, PA.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. Dean is defining the Republicans. Excellent article PA.
Give Dean time to refine his message. The Republicans have had decades to refine their propaganda.

Give them hell.
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prairierose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
27. Thank you Plaid Adder....
for saying so eloquently what I have been thinking. I do not understand how anyone can think that we would ever get any favorable coverage in the corporate media as it stands today. It makes no difference what we say or how we say it, we will get negative coverage. That propaganda machine is well oiled at this point in time.

We must do something different. The former party leadership prefers to stand in one place and continue the same old tactics...that have NOT worked. Isn't the definition of insanity continuing the same behavior and expecting different results? But more importantly, the Dem party is supposed to be the party that looks forward NOT back.
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KnaveRupe Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
28. Great post!
Any chance you might reconsider and take up writing your columns again?

Please?
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. Amen, Plaid Adder.
A-fuckin-men.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
30. Outstanding, Pld Adder!
Excellent counsel.
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Catboater Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
31. Only a Fool
keeps repeating his actions expecting some day to magically witness a different outcome. After the election we heard some weak kneed Dems wail and FOS Repugs gloat that the Dems had to move to the center and be more like the repugs. To that a lot of us said STFU, and I'll bet Dean was one of those voices. Good for him to poke some eyes, but its more than this, because he is smart and articulate and can make his argument with the truth and eventually win over open minds - but only once he's gained your attention. I like Howard mucho, but more importantly, so does my wife, who is the smartest person I know. (No, she's not watching or dictating this.)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Welcome to DU Catboater!
Yes, Dean does seem to know how to handle the press!

It's remarkable he's where he is today given the media attempts to annihilate him.

In a functioning Democracy, there is no power greater than that of the real grassroots, even with a majority of the press working against us.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
80. Oh Catboater! You are SO welcome in this group...
come over here and sit next to me!
Welcome to DU and BRING YOUR WIFE!!
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
32. Dayum!
PA, would you please come bat for the Oakland A's? You hit it out of the park every effing day. Also, this post from yesterday...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

:applause:
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
33. And let me add
At first, I was totally pissed off at the Dems criticizing Dean. I felt betrayed by them, but when I thought about it a bit, that seemed a very reasonable way for them to behave.

1) it could be a very good good cop/bad cop strategy. After all, no one is going to be voting for Dean. Let him be the bad cop, and let all the voters vote for the good cops. Dean can take the heat. He seems to shine when they turn up the heat. Then, lots of other Democrats get elected. It's win/win.

2) there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I wouldn't say it the way Howard does." And make no mistake...the MSM are misquoting the other Dems to make their anti-Dean statements sound more vehement than they are.
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
34. CNN Poll
On Lou Dobbs site, there is a poll

Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean is:

Brash
Bold
Outrageous
Effective

67% vote effective

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight /

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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Hey, what do you know, a relatively balanced poll question!
What a difference it makes to say it loud, say it proud, and mark the shit you take "Return to Sender"
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Shipwack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
35. I was sitting on the fence about this...
... but the Adder made me realize that we can (and need) to start being more aggressive. To misquote a reality show, "It's time for the Democrats to stop being polite, ans start being real!"
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
37. There you go again, PA!
Bringing that Earth logic to the yard!

:yourock: :applause:
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knoxvilleboy Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
38. You've hit the nail on the head
Dean endangers the wing of the Democratic Party that has made the party largely irrelevant. Why support a quiescent party that simply agrees with the Republicans on every issue? The hypocrisy of the MSM and of the pro-business "moderate" wing of the party are going to attack every chance they get because the "real" Democrats are a threat to them.
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Pystoff Donating Member (317 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. Punching Pug's in the nose...
I like Dean and like him even more after hearing him verbally smack the Pug's lately. This is a bit scary yes because it's un-politico but it's a long time comming. The Pug's have their hatchet ppl do this all the time (Coulter,Hannity) so they think their shit smells like roses. Well ta hell with them it's about time someone from the left kicked their asses for a change. Now the only problem is the corporate media and wether they will run his quotes around the clock like the scream....this makes me worry. But untill it does damage I am loving it so phtttttt on 'em hehe.

:headbang:
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. Ya know
Ever since this manufactured outrage blew up, I can't stop thinking of Dean as Homey D. Clown from In Living Color, and the MSM and the Repukes as those snot nosed little kids Homey used to always beat in the head with his sock, hehe. :rofl:

In fact, it made me change my sig.
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
40. The best post I've seen in a loooooooong time. nt
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. Bravo
My sentiments exactly
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. This is a very reasonable perspective.
For establishment Dems to continue arguing for methods that have yielded no positive result for the party is absurd and self-destructive.

It is ironic that many of those who have yielded year after year of failure would now believe that Dean himself is a destructive force in the party.

While reading your outstanding essay, a particular little gnome in my skull started hopping around and shouting "But, but, the election was stolen!"

Well, the fact is, aside from protecting against and hopefully prosecuting election fraud, there are indeed things that need to be done to get the message out. The second fact is: there is no way the election should have been close enough to steal. When America knows what today's Republican party stands for, we will have 65% of them voting Dem.

Dean is the best, most capable man to point the way to the Republican record. People need to hear and to remember a message. In a nation of brains re-wired by decades of THE TEEVEE to respond to hot messages and be bored by all the rest, Dean seems to have tapped into a way to seize the podium. Work with him, not against him. Use that podium, that platform he's created for you to reveal the Republican record, not to revile Dean.

It is easy to look into Dean's more brash statements and support his message. Edwards did it. And he even went a step farther by making sure that the Media spinners knew that he was not anti-Dean. All one need do is say "I would have put it another way, but Dean is correct about (fill in the blank)" Very easy, so please stop working against yourself and us.

The grassroots members of the party have spoken with money, words and action. I invite establishment Dems to support us by supporting Dean, lest you fade into irrelevance. There are more of us than there are of you.

If Dean can claw and kick box his way to the top of the hill to get the truth of that message out, why not? Look at the Republican party for the past few decades. Sure worked for them. Heck, they get millions of Americans to vote AGAINST THEMSELVES, against their very survival because of the way they have defined the Democratic Party.

I enjoyed your article very much Plaid. Thanks!
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. Right!
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
46. Thanks so much for saying what I was thinking -
expressing it so effectively.

Go Plaid Adder!

Go Howard!

Howard speaks for me.

Peace,
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JRob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
47. .

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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
48. Precisely
Thank you!
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. Great Post! nominated and kicked
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
51. Exactly right!
This is what I've been trying to say, but usually people are able to turn it into a "dean isn't god" debate. I'll be saving this essay for future reference.
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MarianJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
53. In the Wise Words of ChicaAzul,...
...my beloved and infrequently posting DUer wife, "Thats My Girl"!

Its amazing Adder, in this post you just said EXACTLY what we were saying in the car on the way home today.

The simple fact is that we have to start fighting back. We won't get back into power by having the liebermans of the world kissing this monster of a human being when he walks into the congressional chambers.

I was a Kerry supporter from the get go last year. I continue to believe that he was and is the best we have and he has been a hero to me for 30+ years. I will ALWAYS, however, be grateful to Howard Dean for giving a fighting spirit back to us.

ChicaAzul and I support him because even if we lose with him, the rethuglicans will know that they've been in a fight. We don't think we're going to lose wih him. Not in the long run, anyway!
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DirtyDawg Donating Member (594 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
54. Right Arm!...
...what is it that the 'establishment' Democrats don't get about what it meant to have Howard in this position? Like the buzzard, we're over this sitting around waiting for something to die, we're gonna kill it. Pessimism and anger can damn well be a 'starter' if folks are clear on where to focus that anger. Get these bastards out of office just as soon as possible. And if some of the big-time givers aren't willing to help out because they think it unseemly, fuck 'em, we don't need 'em and they don't deserve to be part of it. They can 'distance' themselves from Howard all they want, but when they do, they'll be distancing themselves from the people that will be putting them back in office - or perhaps somebody else.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
56. Very well said
The time to be moderate in the face of extremism is long past. It hasn't worked before and it surely won't magically start to now, or in the future. There was a time when Labor knew its' members would DIE in an organizing fight; you cannot be moderate against criminals that would stop at nothing to destroy you.
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jahyarain Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
57. thank you PA
and kick
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
58. yup yup!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
59. Can I get an, AMEN, brothers and sisters?
My sentiments exactly. I'm sick of taking the "more intelligent high ground" and having it crammed down our throats by the rabid right and a country full of people who think voting for "American Idol" is more important than voting for the Presidency.
Dr. Dean is here to shake things up folks, not debate intelligently with the Pukes. We've all seen where that road has taken us, nowhere.
I've been waiting a long time for someone in our Party to kick those rabid righties in the sack, and Dr. Dean is the one to do it.
No more Mr. Freaking Nice Guy, I'm mad as hell and I'm NOT going to take it anymore. I stand behind Dr. Dean 100%.
Those that want to appeal to the "better angels" of Americans had better wake up and smell the coffee. There are no "better angels" in Americans anymore. There are only simplistic, jingoistic court jesters who can't retain anything more than a 30 second sound bite and have no intention of using more of their brain power than is necessary.
Dr. Dean is getting their attention, more so in his short tenure that Terry McAuliffe (sp) did in his entire turn at the helm of the Democratic Party.
I have TOTAL faith in Dr. Dean! :woohoo:
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
61. MSNBC just had a Dean bashfest....
on Coast to Coast with Ron Reagan Jr. and Monica Crowley. I missed the first part but they were almost orgasmic as they were happily predicting the doom of the Democratic party.

I'm getting so sick of these "bad, bad Dean" remarks. I believe the Republicans are scared to death of Howard Dean because they haven't been able to intimidate him like they have other prominent Democrats.

Ron Reagan did make some good comments though. He said that the Repubs have been using these tactics for a long time and nobody condemns them. Reagan said that when Tom DeLay threatened judges the Democrats and the media were silent.

I think it will get worse before it gets better (even though it's gone on waaaay too long as it is) and we should just keep the faith. There are more people out there who feel the same way we do and the media and Washington insiders have been so out of touch with the rest of the nation that they really don't have any idea how America feels or thinks.

The Republicans bullied and cheated their way into power and the Democrats are going to have to strong-arm their way back by any (legal) means necessary.

These methods may or may not work but we won't know unless we try.

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valis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
62. Dean speaks for ME!
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Orion The Hunter Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Nicely said Plaid Adder!
Dean speaks for me and I am glad we got someone who is not afraid to speak his mind (even when its not always the nicest thing to say).
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
65. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing your perspective, PA!!!
When we act like the family we're supposed to be, embracing our various talents, we will kick "RABID REPUBLICAN" butts!!

We are the people-lovin', problem-solvin' party. Let's BE what we are in spite of every obstacle and challenge placed in our way by the profit-lovin', power-driven lot on this planet.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
66. Good Post - Here are my thoughts...
In our collective critical responses to remarks made by ranking DP officials (i.e. Biden et al) who let's face it, are essentially members of the established inner sanctum (aka the DLC -directly or by proxy) - and as such are finding their position of power and authority suddenly threatened or tenuous at best, and are desperate to "reclaim" or re-establish what they honestly believe and consider as their righteously earned and deserved turf with all the privileges, power and authority that their dubiously "earned" position of "officialdom" (within the party) implies.

It became quite apparent in last weeks Coup orchestrated by a group of so called "non-partisan moderates" in thwarting a filibuster on the most right wing extremist judicial nominees ever dished by any president in U.S. history, that something else must be going on that did not meet the proverbial eye as I watched and listened to the remarks made by this cabal of so called moderates holding full court press (broadcast on C-Span)with skepticism, anger and a great deal of concern of what promised to follow.

That story hasn't been fully played out, yet.

However I think it should be noted that the inner sanctum of the DP/DLC has naturally been strategizing behind the scenes to dismiss Dean, perhaps even conspire to ultimately oust him - like they did with Deans Presidential candidacy by pushing Kerry to the front, in the meantime play the role of "good cop/bad cop" until they can ultimately succeed.

An article i found today http://thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpag... reports on a meeting of a "New Democratic Coalition" purporting to be "Moderates" meeting to hammer out platform positions and campaign strategies. Though the writer does not identify all of the individual players by name, what is revealed is that they are essentially those that orchestrated what i consider as a coup, together with the DLC. At least that's the way I interpret it. Others viewpoints may vary or be in disagreement with my assessment. But I do believe that those of us who have struggled hard for the party to be the voice of true progressive principles and to honestly represent those ideals have to be aware of the intentions of the DLC to continue disregarding our concerns, and shutting our voices out.

So the issue on Iraq will be more about "staying the course", true Election reform and CleanCampaign movement will continue to meet with a deafening silence, Corporate personhood will never be abolished, the Patriot Act will be given full and permanent empowerment, and we will continue to see the decline of what little democracy remains for our future, and the complete death of the Constitution, aided and abetted by the right wing within the DLC, who I consider to be the appeasers of fascism that is in power today.

Here's an excerpt of the article I refer to above:

http://thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpag...

A large part of this process is about framing ideas so when Democrats do take power were ready for prime time, said Rep. Artur Davis (D-Ala.), one of the groups three co-chairs. When Republicans were out of power, they sat around thinking of ideas. When were out of power, we engage in endless hand wringing. Part of this process is about having ideas we can implement once we power.

The New Democrats agenda represents an expansion of their focus during the Clinton administration, when they limited themselves to economic issues.

The previous agenda was focused on growth. I think well continue to work on those issues and talk more broadly about security and values. I think theres a general sense that Democrats need to be better on those issues, said Adam Smith (D-Wash.), also a co-chairman. "

====================







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FighttheFuture Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. In time, Dean will have to take care of the DLC. Geld them and...
put them out to pasture.

The official organ of the Democrats is the DNC, not the DLC. It's time to start reminding people, such as those Corporate Concubines in the Senate, who call themselves Democrats, of that fact!!

Either they come around or cut off their funding, run progressive candidates against them.

All in time!
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
69. OK - 69 responses so far and no dissent? That says *A*LOT*
Right on, TPA! I like what I see Dean doing. It's getting coverage in the media and it's encouraging a lot of others to just say it like it is. Let it grow!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. Oh, he has detractors are around here....
but they're not going to argue on a thread that is overwhelmingly FOR Dr.Dean. Not everyone on DU agrees that Dr. Dean is a breath of fresh air for the Democratic Party. Don't fool yourself for one minute that we're all behind him, there are those that wish to see him fail. Those would be the old guard, DLC members. They're outnumbered here now and are just biding their time. They'll pounce when the time (if ever) is right.
I have always been, and will continue to be, a Deaniac! :woohoo:

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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. How true..
I took a number of hits yesterday in a thread Warrior1 created about a hall of shame for Dems who are bashing Dean in public. While a hall of shame might be a little much,these people need to know that they are the ones out of step with the Democrats. Dean is only coming out publicly with what we have been saying all along. These old school Dems act like we are living in the 1950's and it's still an amicable 2 party system. Sorry, but if you don't have the spine to stand up to these people then get out of the way so someone else can...
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sagesnow Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
70. Give 'em Hell Howard!
I'm going to donate to the DNC now that we have a voice for working people.
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amb123 Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
71. Exactly!
Thanks to the Plaid Adder for putting the matter of the Dean speech on it's true ground. Howard Dean MOST DEFINATELY SPEAKS FOR ME! When the Republican Party stops calling us liberals and Democrats traitors to God, Family & Country, I'll stop calling them Christian Fascist Pigs who want to replace Government of, by and for the people with a Government of, by and for the White, Anglo-Saxon, Christian, Rich, Hetrosexual, Male!

:kick:

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Ysolde Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
107. Welcome Aboard, amb123!

I totally agree with you! If you read further up, you'll notice that the Republican party is 82% white (so how was Dean wrong?).
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
72. GO HOWARD GO!!! And THANK YOU oh Plaid One.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
74. Well stated, thank you
:kick:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
79. Yep. One problem is that many corpocrats would rather live under a
Repuke dictatorship than get off the corporate titties.

IMHO, any Dems who thinks grassroots organization is BAD for Dems needs to have his or her head examined. Big money, mass media, talk radio and think tanks will always give the Repukes the edge in astroturf. So we need to win hearts and minds with local sweat and shoe leather.

We also need to stop unauditable voting machines before there's no strategy that can help us.
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
82. We must support Dean!
Dean didn't say anything that I disagree with. We've got to quit being such wimps. Let the republicans bitch about Dean all they want. Let's support the man!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
84. Amen, hallalujeh, and....
... pass the plate.

Dean will make some mistakes, he's making an omelette and some eggs are going to get broken.

It's better than eating the same damn gruel that the establishment Dems have been serving for way too many years.

I'm ready to WIN and it's clear that playing the stupid game they are playing is never going to win jack shit.
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dennis00 Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
85. election 2004
We did not lose the 2004 election. It was stolen. Bush is in the Out House because the election results were rigged to put him there. That said, we, the Democrats, did something right that caused us to win the election and the Bush people to steal it. I am a little weary of trying to figure out what we did "wrong" in 2004. What did we do "right"? We actually WON the damn election. We need to concentrate our energy on making sure they do not steal the 2006 mid-terms, and then we end up wasting time trying to understand why we "lost" again.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
86. Uhmmm, PA, the election was stolen...
Kerry won! The dems did a good job against all odds: the press, the war, the slander and the lies. Kerry won the election but it was stolen from us. You, me: US

Still, you make some very good points about politics and how the game is played. Good reading. Now if you could just apply yourself to the stolen election, I'm sure you could help make a difference in our efforts to - at the very least - keep it from happening again. We sure could use the help, eh?
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Knight of Ni Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #86
92. But it should have been THEFT-PROOF!!!
Edited on Fri Jun-10-05 01:13 AM by Knight of Ni
By all rights Kerry should have had at least a 70%-30% margin of victory - something too decisive for the Repubs to steal. Remember, not ALL the states had trail-less machines. And he was running against the worst president ever.

Still, I agree that Kerry generally ran a good campaign - better than any Democratic presidential candidate in 25 years except for the Big Dog. But he could have done better; mistakes obviously were made. Kerry was best when he was willing to give it a strong fight - he did this well in the last 2 months of the campaign, particularly in the debates, and got back some votes he lost back in August as a result.
When he didn't meet the attacks with a strong response, it hurt him. The crucial mistake Kerry's campaign made was not defining him and Bush on Kerry's terms until after the Repubs defined Kerry on theirs.


Howard is attempting to define the Repubs early in the game. While he may need to refine his words a little more, he has the right idea.

And Plaid is right about not worrying about the media attacking him because they will attack him and the Dems anyway. But perhaps we can use the media's conservative bias to our advantage. Eric Alterman uses the term "work the refs" - if you complain strongly enough on a ref's call, he may go easier on you over time. Gasbags like Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter, and the rest of thev RW echo chamber have been doing this for years, decrying a "liberally biased media" where none existed. The reality is that the conservatives OWN most of the refs, but that doesn't mean we still can't try to "work" them. Hillary did this recently when she criticized the media's lack of investigative reporting and coddling of the Chimp in a speech. Conyers has brought this up to public attention as well. Dean and other Dems should do this at every opportunity. SHAME the Corporate Media into doing their jobs. The recent Deep Throat/Watergate reminiscing has opened up the door for comparing the state of the media then versus now, and showing how it currently comes up wanting. Let's use it.
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jmcon007 Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
87. I agree w/ the Adder...what'll it be, powdered wigs or brass knuckles?
Screw the decorum. I'm preaching a little to myself here, too, because I found myself saying 'right on!' when I read about Dean's comments, only to reconsider when the 'old school' began warning about some arbitrary 'line' they believe we must not cross.
Adder's right. It's time to cross it, folks. If the neocons draw a line in the sand, kick it in their faces. Ironically, I believe it would be the neonuts who would counsel that you don't deal with tyrants with sweet talk and promises. Bush is a tyrant if there ever was one. He has no respect for the law or, for that matter, anyone who disagrees with him.
Time to get mad, because I believe the very soul of our nation is at stake. Let's at least say we tried.
John
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dennis00 Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
88. voting results
PA: It's not who votes that counts. It's who counts the votes. I think Joe Stalin said that. Remember that in 2006. We need to start NOW NOW NOW fixin' their fix so we can get our train back on the track.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-09-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
89. I just LOVE that Howard! 100% LOVE that Howard!
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Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
90. I think what he's doing is great.
And you are right. I am loving it.
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Mistahkleeen Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
91. About time
During the 2004 Democratic National Convention, the word was "No Bush Bashing." "We want to make the election about the issues, blah blah blah..." What a crock. When it was the Republicans turn, they ripped Kerry left and right. For too long the leadership in the Democratic party has been afraid to call a spade a fucking spade for fear of "offending" moderates. Dean has the balls to say what others wont say, and for that alone he gets mad respect. The GOP is NOT diverse. Black Republicans have to towe the party line, and that line is a very narrow one. Dean has decided to take the fight to the repukes and it's about damn time somebody did.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
94. Not to mention, Dean made that video with Bev Harris
about voting fraud. You think maybe he knows full well that Ohio was rigged, that Florida was rigged?

If anyone didn't need this explained, it's Dean.

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Brianboru Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
95. I feel better every day. Go Howard!
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
96. Excellent!
I don't know if Dean's approach will bear fruit, either, but he certainly deserves the chance to give it a go.
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Gronk Groks Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
97. No more Mister Nice Guy...
...ever here the one about "Nice guys finish Last"? It is time to take off the gloves and get down to mud wrestling. The Republicans don't play nice and we CAN NOT afford to.

Dean knows that we have got to start fighting back. Some of his shots may miss but at least he is shooting, something the Democratic establishment seems to of forgotten how to do.

Positive messages are nice, comfortable and intellectually satisfying.
However during the Cultural Wars that the Repugs started, it is a luxury that we can ill afford. :kick:
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frankly_fedup2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
98. Howard Dean is calling it like it is. I think he is doing a great job . .
and he should never apologize for anything that he says regarding the Republican Party. I have found it so ironic that Bush and his administration call those other country's governments the "evil doers." They need to get a clue and realize that the rest of the World now looks at the U.S. as the EVIL DOERS because everything that has gone on since the Right stole the election in 2000 and started their plans for PNAC.

GWB fits the profile of any sociopathic serial killer. He wants to be remembered, be a part of history, whether it is good or bad. I also believe the Rights code word for PNAC is "freedom." A little ironic I would think.

Also, again, regarding what Howard Dean is stating about the Right, well, finally he is just telling the truth. I'm glad to see that with Dean's leadership, the Democratic Party is not just going to ignore the Republicans stupid accusations and roll over like a dog in defeat.

Harry Reid has to be given some credit. After all, he called Bush a loser and a liar. He then apologized for saying that Bush was a loser, but he said publicly that he is still sticking with his statement regarding Bush being a liar.

Senator Biden is another who will tell the truth, but then he turns around and votes against what he had just said. He gives the impression that he has no choice but to vote the way he does.
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bpeale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
99. Eating our own???
Did it ever occur to anyone that the media making a big deal out of Dean's comments is actually calculated to divert our attention from all the rotten things they are doing? We defeat them by staying on task not attacking each other. IGNORE THE BIG MEDIA! We know what their agenda is. Stay on task.

barbara
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. Yep that's it, they want to hold on to the frame of the debate
Just tell big corporate media to SHOVE IT

Also if RICH WHITE CHRISTIAN REPUBLICANS don't like their cover blown maybe they might want invest in some shoe polish


http://ultimateb2b.com/shop_image/product /

Was Jolson's persona racist?
http://home.earthlink.net/~davidp_hayes/Articles/a14.ht...
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
100. Please Respond to the SF Chronicle Attack Editorial on Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Please go to my other thread and respond to their deliberate misquote
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CAcyclist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Please Also Tell Ed Schultz that No, Dean Does NOT Need a Handler
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #102
113. Absolutely!
Thanks for the tip! Here is what I sent him.

There should be an entrance exam to join the Democratic party. Sure, there should.
The democratic party ought to have an entrance exam - not, as one might assume, a way of excluding anyone. After all, inclusion is what we are good at, we, meaning of course, the actual members of the new party. The only folk to be excluded are those who have, by their own choices, elected to avoid the responsibilities that have arisen with the rise of this new party.

The voice of this new party has been selected, both by himself and the DNC and the self-selected members of this new party are keenly aware that, although the sea change in the Democrats has come about as a direct result of the consolidation of extremofundies and fascism on the right.

Our party is transforming into an alliance that demands and requires of itself a level of integrity and straight-from-the-shoulder direct truthfulness that has become the secret weapon, the "nuclear option" of the progressives, and a truly potent weapon, indeed!

The shining example and guiding luminary of this re-discovered principle exists in the person of Howard Dean.
Mr. Dean has done and is doing something in this renovated party that represents the carpe diem moment for people of good will and powerful ethical position. The "Mr. Smith" vision is a secret envy for many and the empowerment of all, no matter political stature, to stand up and point to the thoughtless greed, so common, and declare the truth, pointing to, if necessary, the perpetrator's record and motives.
.
What a wonderful idea - a political party with a guiding principle of telling the truth, loudly, accompanied with a demand that the garbage had better be cleaned up, right NOW!
If the truth splatters a bit and strikes a few other not so innocent bystanders, so much the better. If that splatter of truth brings offended howls of outrage from the radical clerics and extremofundies, the victory is closer.

Yes the New Democrats have an entrance exam; one which disqualifies the business as usual fatcats and misguided power grabbers who have given birth to the rise of the new left, and that exam is a source of enormous pride and occasional glee.
Howard Dean does speak for me, and, yes, unfortunately the two-by-four really is necessary! Hit 'em again, Howard, even harder!
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Gronk Groks Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. Sent Ed an E-Mail
Dean needs a handler???

Democrats needed a backbone and Dean gave them one!!!

Go Dean!!!! :evilgrin:
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-12-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #116
118. Good on ya!
I even got a (somewhat confusing) reply.
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Ysolde Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
104. Yes! Yes! Yes!
Another great post!

I'm tired of compromising (especially when our side gets nothing from the compromise). I'm tired of "playing nice" when the other guy is attacking us with a chain saw. I'm tired of turning the other cheek while being knifed in the back. I'm tired of being tolerant when the ReThugs get away with outright bigotry.

I love that Dean is out there and speaking with some guts for a change. I don't think he's being strong enough, because as you said, no matter what Dems say we'll get trashed in the media. We might as well get the words out there so that some of them may get into the sheeple's psyches.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
108. I think Dean is doing the right thing.
I've been a Deaniac for a LONG time, and I admit, many times his brain is thinking faster than his mouth is saying the words. He's NOT going to change what he says, because that's just how he is...plain spokin, but I do think he will improve is how he states his position. ie: The Republican leadership who are making the new rules never worked an honest day in their lives! I know that's what he meant, and if everyone would have heard the whole speach, they would have known too! Howard's a very smart guy, and I think he will learn to insert the words necessary to get his point across and not be taken out of context.

I say, keep it up, Howard!
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jdadd Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
109. Right on, Plaid Adder.
This is a cussedly mean bunch we are dealing with and nicey, nicey isn't going to matter to them. I could never see what was so horrible about Dean yelling. I believe there is something called the Rebel Yell that sounds about like it and that's just considered a charming ethnic thing. If Dean can bring the Dems out of their fantasy of wanting to be liked by everyone - so be it. I just hope the old guard lets him have a chance.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
110. Plaid Addler, you are...
My freaking hero, i couldn't have said it any better. I do believe in fighting fire with fire. At least Mr. Dean is getting some media spotlight for a change, besides his yelling speech in Iowa last year. We have to start hitting back, and Dean is hitting, albeit i don't think he is hitting hard enough.

I have tried the peaceful, logical way of talking about issues with Republicans but it always fails, and it always, and i mean always ends in the Right winger yelling, spitting in my face, after a while it gets pretty damn disheartning, and i'm glad that Mr. Dean is taking the offensive.

I would like to see Mr. Dean start hitting the war in iraq and the death toll of our troops, and of course, the high prices of gasoline. For some reason, when an issue hits a Republicans wallet, it gets their attention and I do believe that Mr. Dean will have everyone's attention when he starts discussing the high prices of oil.

Again, Mr. Plaid Addler, you are my hero, your articles are very articulate and enlightning, and i would enjoy reading more of your thoughts/feelings...laterz...
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Old Vet Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. Lets wake up that sleeping giant-
There are so many ill-informed,working class people who rely on MSM for facts,No wonder theres people who think saddam was involved in 9-11. I cant believe the bullshit thats circulated as news! Help people get informed, Howard Dean is doing his job-BOUT TIME some one did-My full support.
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Don_1967 Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
114. GO DEAN!
Dean is telling the truth he's been called a lot of things by the repukes & the media but no one has called him a liar they can't .
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
115. You don't seem to post much
but when you do, you knock it out of the park. Yours were some of the first DU articles I ever read. Thanks for making these VERY important, very valid points.

And go Dean!!!
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manxkat Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
117. excellent post -- here's another one from Will Pitt
that I just read over at t r u t h o u t

Dean Was Right
by William Rivers Pitt
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