A thought for Dean, and a thought for his critics.

[WilliamPitt]

First, for the Dean critics who have gone public with their criticisms: You are asshats. Ronald Reagan helped build a massively successful Republican coalition by preaching a simple gospel. "Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican in public," said Reagan, and it worked for them, and it still works for them. There must have been a way, there must have been a dozen ways, for you to deliver your concerns to Dean and the DNC without barfing it out all over the papers. Please don't be so goddam stupid again.

To Dean: There is an old lawyer's saying that goes, "When you have the facts on your side, pound on the facts. When you have the law on your side, pound on the law. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound on the table." Mr. Dean, we have the facts on our side. We have the law on our side. I would humbly suggest you pound on those, and don't bother pounding on the table. Leave that to us.

/2 cents

[AuntPatsy]

1. Here here, I second the motion. for Dean to continue as is..

[me b zola]

2. Good thoughts

nominated




:kick:

[jpak]

3. I delivered my concerns to the DNC with a $25 check,

an Attaboy for the Good Doctor and a hearty FU to duplicitous corporate donors and Pink Tutu Dems.

and I might do it again next payday too.

and I plan to "pound" some Geary's Pale Ale when I get home...

:)

[KG]

4. so there you go.

another call for democrats to be more like republicans.

shut up, just shut up and get in line or get called a name by will pitt.

probably get your mic turned off, too.

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

6. Um...

I'm not sure if that was criticism or what.

I'm not saying we should 'be like Republicans,' by the way. I'm saying we should stop stabbing each other in public, and I'm saying we have the facts and the law on our side.

[VelmaD]

9. You shoulda known...

that as soon as you mentioned Howard Dean's name someone would yell at you. :)

[KoKo]

59. What are the "facts" and the "law" doing for us, though? Another RW Judge

confirmed, and our own Dems going after Dean. One after the other they are lining up. I predicted it when Biden opened his mouth. That blowhard and the rest...today Pilosi.

The DLC wants him gone to get the "k-Street" money. The DNC wasn't happy that Dean was foisted on him by the "activist grassroots" in states like mine NC where we pushed and pushed and fought to get him in there....against all odds here in my "Red State," that John Edwards gave up to that loser Erskine Bowles leaving us with another RW'er Helms/Faircloth big business RW Christian Supporter, Richard Burr.

We now have Dole and Burr where we had Dole and Edwards.

Pound on that table Dr. Dean and just keep at it. We know who you are speaking to and it isn't the "101 First Infantry Keyboard Jockey's."

[AuntPatsy]

15. How in the world is that a call to act like Repubs? On what

basis to you come to such a conclusion? Howard Dean's statement concering the core of the Republican party is completely accurate, you cannot help it if sometimes the truth hurts, and that they believe themselves to be true Christians, they NEED to be called on such bullshit and it needs to be pounded into the media outlets time after time...

I cannot tell you how many times the past five years that I have heard Republicans proclaim themselves to be the driving christian force of this nation and the Dems not even close, your dear VP even stated outright that the Dems were of the other faith? Now you tell me, what faith was he talking about?

Did the major media outlets take a stab at taking apart this statement made by our vp? Absolutely NOT,

The repubs have consistantly made false statements about the DEM party the last twenty years and have always gotten away with outright LYING, and you have the nerve to call Dean on telling the truth?

Spare us your outrage.

[KG]

18. i didn't call dean out on anything.

heck, i'm not outraged, far from it.

i'm amused. :) :hi:

[AuntPatsy]

23. Well I am not amused at the seriousness of how horrific the

Republicans have become in their rhetoric regarding anyone that does not fall in line with their thinking like good little sheeple.

Good people are dying, losing jobs, good health care, women's rights, men's rights, etc, etc...

These guys need to be stopped in their tracks and our nation back on the road to healing it's many scars they have left in their wake, and they won't be if the truth continues to be ignored. ....

I am not attacking you about Dean, we all have our own opinions, but Dean has to be heard and he needs to scream it outloud if need be. I am just so sick and tired of what they are attempting to do to our country as well as what they have already accomplished...

[LeahMira]

36. It was too non-specific!

Dean's statement about the core constituency of the Republican party may well be quite true, but... there are actually some white Christians who are also Democrats!

It's not the whiteness and it's not the Christianity that is at the base of the differences. Maybe it might be more accurate to talk about the specifics. Call those specifics by name. I hope we all, Democrats and Republicans, can see that those specifics are pretty obnoxious once they are named more accurately.

[stickdog]

65. Why does everybody seem to think a statement implies its converse?

If I say, "My family is white and Christian" does that say something about my family or something about white Christians?

Dean said "Republicans are pretty much white Christians." This statement says something that's 100% TRUE about the universe of Republicans. It says NOTHING WHATSOEVER about the universe of whites or Christians. Got it?

I mean, I'm a white Christian Democrat. Why am I supposed to feel alienated by a true statement Dean said about REPUBLICANS?

Or perhaps you think I'll want to join them in their ignorant intolerance now that Dean clued me into it?

I mean, I'm a white Christian, but I'd never consider joining a country club that was 98%+ white Christians. That would be really creepy, now wouldn't it?

[Eloriel]

77. THANK YOU! Some people make me think Greenspan is right

-- whatever he said about not educating our children.

Not only is what you explained perfecly true and valid, but as for "specifics," Dean went on to clarify beautifully (when asked, on TV), that it's just not the party of inclusion. AGAIN 100% true.

[geniph]

41. Be more like Republicans?

You mean, like, actually win elections and stuff?

[Andromeda]

72. That's not what Will said...

the way I interpret it is that when Howard Dean does say something there's a good reason for it and in people's minds there is sufficient smoke to assume there is a fire.

DeLay is not in jail, yet, but there certainly is enough cause to indict him for numerous crimes. There is a reason for everything Dean says and is meant to provoke a response. It keeps Dean in the news and he gets to play "good cop, bad cop" with other Democrats who make it appear that they are more conciliatory and reasonable.

Keeping the Republican's Achilles heels exposed is exactly what Dean is doing. Harsh rhetoric is more controversial and promotes discussion.

[silver10]

5. Giddyup!!

Well said!

This could be the start of something big.

[silver10]

7. I love it!

[BillZBubb]

8. Good advice except...

To Dean: Keep up the good work. Our side NEEDS some HIGH LEVEL firebrands. We are too "play it safe" with our rhetoric and get our asses handed to us because of it. Milquetoast rhetoric doesn't get heard above the media noise. Going to the heart of the enemy does. Congratulations and THANK YOU!

[WilliamPitt]

11. Agreed

with the caveat that a firebrand can pound on the facts and the law when they are on our side.

[Demit]

33. Pounding on the table makes em flip open their little reporter notebooks,

though. Once they start following him around, breathlessly waiting for his next outrageous statement, once he has their attention, he can slip in the substance that creates the context for the great quote. I'm all for what he's doing. Fighting back!

[tavalon]

54. I completely agree with what you say

but I have a slightly different take on what Dean is doing right now. He's getting the news cycles to cover his "outrageous" remarks and getting them to bring him on their myriad shows and then he is going after the facts and the law. He won't get anywhere if the media won't cover him. They're covering him now.

Basically, I think he pissed them off so they would hand him the bully pulpit. If he continues with this tack, I won't be nearly so happy with him because the media will just start saying, "Oh well, it's just what Howard Dean does." thereby yanking the podium away.

[dogday]

10. That is the best way to support Dean is to give. They are already

saying let's see if he can bring in the money... I believe he will and more.

[Rowdyboy]

12. A+ on the 1st point, 100% agreement on the 2nd.....Now if they're just

listening

Dean needs to pound them, but needs to pound them on the issues which work for us!

[Adelante]

35. Yes, please nt

[katsy]

13. That's 2 cents everyone can bank on.

Thanks Will.

[Raster]

14. Love that two cents. Let me add some more and buy you a beer.

If your ever in Seattle, let me know.

[Pithy Cherub]

16. Agree. Dean, the right person for the right job with the right tools

was hired to lead the DNC. Dean is seriously working a multiple tiered strategy to shape the Party for decades to come, not just 2006 and 2008. How it is funded, where communication is done, who has a voice or even a freakin' seat at the table, are the fundamentals being shaped by his leadership. To get people to the parade you gotta have fireworks, to keep them there you better have a plan.

Strategy #1: Dean is PUBLICALLY announcing the death of Democrats was greatly exaggerated. Those who buy their ink by the barrel love to write about what again...;)

Go Dean!

[Pirate Smile]

17. I agree strongly with both points. You must be psychic to crystallize

my thoughts so well. ;-)

[Kevin Spidel]

19. asshat

[Kevin Spidel]

22. defined (a site dedicated to)

http://www.confusednation.com/asshat/

Asshat is by no means just a replacement for the word ‘asshole,’ but at the current state of the economy there is no better word to compare it to.

ass·hat
n. slang
1. A thoroughly contemptible, detestable person.
2. Tight fitting underwear

[tavalon]

55. I love your graphic! n/t

[AuntPatsy]

20. A kick in case Dean's team reads this site.

[chaska]

21. amen!

[lonestarnot]

24. So pound all three! Table pounding he has done doesn't bother

me! Keep after them Howard! You're right! They've never done an honest days work! Too busy stealing everyone else's profit from their honest days work!

[Just Me]

25. I love it. Leave the table pounding to us!!!

:rofl:

Dean is so passionate. We are ALL guilty of allowing our passion get the best of us, from time to time. Yes? }(

[LittleClarkie]

26. Indeed there are issues that need addressing

We can find our own red meat.

[Daphne08]

27. I'm a Southern born-and-bred woman currently

living elsewhere, but I can speak with some authority for most Southerners.

They like "direct talk." Period.


I also must add the following knowing that it will get me flamed, but the truth is the truth. Many, many Southern voters (especially rural voters) fear Democrats these days because they think their guns will be taken away from them.

Now, deal with that statement as you like, but I am speaking truth here.

Flame away.

[billbuckhead]

29. Dean has diminished his position by taking on Rush Limbaugh

Air America does that a lot better than he does. Dean needs to run point on the issues, not become the issue. Whenever Dean becomes the issue, the Republicans win.

[AuntPatsy]

34. Dean is doing what Dean SHOULD DO and it's about dam time someone

took the reigns. How can one run important issues towards a people who would much rather have a major debate on whether MJ is guilty or not...

The issues he has addressed, they have just been IGNORED by the media as always, do you see what is getting addressed by the media? So please, quit falling for that belief that the Dems have no message or care about issues....

[bpilgrim]

38. the pResident and vice pResident have CALLED RUSH, twice... on AIR

we gotta answer every criticism and do it in a manner EVERYONE understands.

it's TIME for some political JUJITSU and if a couple of our guys get their hair mussed in the process so be it... especially if it's only a SPOKESPERSON ;->

we need GOOD-COP vs BAD-COP and all the other techniques there is in our communications tool-box to take this country back.

once they get on teeVee (stage) then they can use that time for NUANCE and SMILES :evilgrin:

that way WE WIN, stead of THEM :bounce:

psst... pass the word

peace

[stickdog]

64. When Dean becomes the issue, Democrats win.

Dean comes across as a tough straight talking guy who isn't afraid to tell it like it is.

That's an image that Democrats need -- especially among many males who are looking for strength and honesty as much or more than they're looking at issues. Clinton was too slick and too nurturing, and Gore and Kerry were too stiff, wonkish and detail oriented.

[AuntPatsy]

32. I can speak with the same authority you claim, guns are no longer

the issue with alot of backwards mentalities, its gay marriage they are spouting about the evils of coming from the so called unchristian Dems who are persecuting their christian beliefs, but even that issue is slowly becoming a non red hot button to push since they seem to have overplayed their hand for many though a few stragglers are still in denial.

So the old, they fear the Dems will take guns away is so yesterday. Now people can deal with your take as well as mine which seem to differ a bit....

[blue neen]

48. With all due respect, the gun issue is not so yesterday

in Pennsylvania. I know many people in my area who vote Repub on that issue ALONE. They're not right, and they're definitely not open-minded, but it still remains an issue to them.

My own uncle sent Christmas cards that he got from the NRA, for crying out loud! The cards said "Peace on Earth" inside. How's that for irony?

So I have to agree with post #27. There are people in this country who still have that fear about Democrats.

Back to the original subject of the thread...

Sorry Will, but calling people asshats means thou art speaking ill of other Democrats in public. I'd rather they wouldn't have gone public with their criticisms also, but two wrongs don't make a right. Just my humble opinion.

[Arkana]

57. I don't disagree

Massachusetts, born and bred, and I don't disagree with that--I heard somewhere that 75% of Alabama Bush votes were because "Kerry will take our guns away." As Mike Malloy said, "Kerry doesn't want your damn GUN!"

[Generic Other]

28. I hate genteel politics!

Why can't Dean call a Repub a mofo and pound on the table if he wants to? I feel like I've joined the frilly lace tea party, when I wanna be a snarling pitbull Democrat!

I think if the entire Democratic leadership were a bit more rude toward Repubs, we'd earn more respect. We are being pushed around the schoolyard by the rich kid bully and his friends. We need to push back.

If they all did it everyday, Dean wouldn't stand out as an easy target. He needs other Dems to stand up and shout "Hear! Hear!" whenever he slams a Repub. No more playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules. Long past time for Dems to give Repubs a good old fashion hairpulling, bare knuckle, knock down, dragout ass kicking.

[bpilgrim]

30. IF the FACTS fail you and the LAW fails you... BANG ON THE TABLE!!!

We Got Your Back!

more...
http://images.GlobalFreePress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[liberalitch]

69. Bang on the truth, the law and the TABLE.....

squeaky wheels get the grease

[friesianrider]

31. Ditto...ditto, and ditto.

It's time for Dems to start playing hardball, too.

[Pharaoh]

37. WOOHOO!

well said Mr pitt........:party: :party: :party:

[tallahasseedem]

39. Now if we can only...

get the other people in our party to listen. I dont know what the hell they are scared of, but they are spineless and killing us. What the heck ever happened to standing united? If they dont pull their head out of their ass soon we will be doomed in 2006. Trust me, we need to be united, asshat Harris is running here in Florida and she absolutely cannot win.

*edited because cannont is most certainly different than cannot.

[LoZoccolo]

40. Wait, doesn't this make you an asshat yourself?

You just told Dean what to do, implying that he did something wrong. You are going public with a criticism of Dean. Plus you are back to criticizing other Democrats, which Reagan didn't do, and you're pounding on the table yourself.

I see what you're saying, and mostly agree, but if you're going to wield that sword...

[bpilgrim]

42. ding-ding-ding

well, not that anyone is an 'asshat' but we gotta STOP criticizing DEM'S, especially the ones criticizing the neoCONs, in PUBLIC!

hello...

peace

[tavalon]

56. This isn't public

Hate to tell you this but we are as fringe (and considered by too many to be as "out there") as Free Republic. We won't get a single news cycle for what Will said.

If we did, even once, Will would shut up. He knows how to play the game.

[bpilgrim]

73. actually it is...

and I/we are talking about our leaders speaking out in the M$M, BTW.

"Hate to tell you this but we are as fringe (and considered by too many to be as "out there") as Free Republic."

be that as it may, me are the MIRROR image, especially MORALLY.

FYI: we DO get noticed, even by STATES men and women :bounce:

peace

[WilliamPitt]

45. Well

I don't know that this is 'public.' It's a discussion forum, and I don't suffer the illusion that what I post here goes anywhere past here. If this a discussion forum, then I am well within parameters to post this for discussion.

And it wasn't a criticism, so much as a suggestion.

[bpilgrim]

47. you're so vain

some of the ones in leadership roles ARE and they all need to chill.

peace

[WilliamPitt]

49. Excuse me?

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. OMG!!! You're the one Carly wrote that song for???

:wow: ;) :hi:

[bpilgrim]

51. you heard me

the POINT is NO DEM leader should be ATTACKING another DEM leader in PUBLIC, ESPECIALLY when they are attacking a Dem who is attacking the neoCONs.

you know you are, chill... and fyi, YOU ain't PERFECT!

i am :P

peace

[LoZoccolo]

53. Understood.

Al From has the same problem...if he was concerned about certain aspects of the Dean campaign, he could have discussed them with Dean instead of offering a press release...now his organization is being held resposible for everything from critical posts of Dean on DU to messing with the sound during the Dean scream.

[geniph]

43. I'm reminded of the early days of the environmental movement,

back when St. Ronnie the Raygun made that colossal dickweed James Watt Secretary of the Interior. In those days, they called the Sierra Club environmental extremists and wouldn't deal with their lobbyists. Then along came Greenpeace, which begat Earth First and Sea Shepherd. Suddenly the Sierra Club seemed pretty reasonable to the envirorapers, and they started being willing to talk to us.

The world needs firebrands too. Besides, the more they attack Howard, the less they're attacking Reid and Pelosi and Clinton and the others who are trying to get the real work done. He's set himself up quite deliberately as a target for their ire and to try to pull the debate back in our direction. I'm loving it. And I think it's working.

[ScreamingMeemie]

44. Please pound on the table for my kids, Dr. Dean...since no one is

listening when I do. :hi:

[KoKo]

58. Me too!... Go! Dr. Dean....pound away...

:-)

[KittyWampus]

46. What Critics? Are You Refering To Biden/Edwards/Richardson? Cause If You

consider what they ACTUALLY said as 'criticism', then you are buying into the Mediawhores nonsense like too many other DUers.

[KoKo]

60. Cryingshame if you can't see the "line up"

so you accuse other DU'ers of not reading quotes properly...then I don't know what to say....

You are one of the few who doesn't seem to get the concerted "pile on." :shrug:

[Orangepeel]

52. To whom should he leave it?

Dean is no longer an elected representative charged with governing citizens of both parties. He is fully partisan, elected by party members to do a partisan job.

It is a debatable point as to whether or not anyone should be pounding on the table (I think yes, personally). But, if anyone should, it should be Dean. No one else has as big a gavel (or shoe or palm or other instrument of choice).

[Disturbed]

61. Repub Lite Dems should quit the Dem Party...

and either become Independents or Rethugs. The Dem Party doesn't need to continue to appease the Rethugs. They need to develope spines and stand up to the Rethugs that are destroying America.

[nolabels]

68. Point to order?

Nikita Kruschev @ The U.N.
http://www.artsmia.org/foot_in_the_door/index.cfm

Reminder note to Dean: Bring gavel to appearances

[theboss]

62. It's amazing how all these myths surround Reagan

Everytime there is an internal Party dispute on either side of the aisle, some Talking Head parrots the old Reagan 11th Commandment Story.

The Republican Party under Reagan was hardly Xanadu. He shifted all the power from the Northeast country clubbers to the South. He scared the hell out of the libertarian westerners like Goldwater. He had the deficit hawks and supply siders clubbing each other.

I don't necessarily think the Democrats should be racing to a microphone to criticize Dean. But Dean needs to realize that his is not the voice of the Party.

I'm still not sure why I'm seeing Dean's name in the paper everyday. Should the chairman being chairing something instead of becoming a regular commentator?

[stickdog]

63. Pounding on the table gets people's attention. Dean's style gets noticed.

In the midst of the media's now wholly predictable "gotcha" frenzy, there's Dean pounding his facts and legitimizing his "controversially tough sounding" memes.

Dean has a bit of a professional wrestler in him, and pro wrestlers are a lot more popular with white males than politicians, especially wimpy politicians -- which is how the vast majority of Democrats are viewed.

Dean needs to just keep being Dean. It's exactly what our party needs.

[boohootwo]

66. Then we need to go after Bush and not his supporters.

[PATRICK]

67. If he didn't say anything remotely

controversial it would have been invented for him. There was a need to hammer Dean and it is the GOP obvious game plan just like Hillary bashing.

It is not in choosing one's words but in engaging the combat on the field of battle. The lawyer's promulgation of facts and law only works in a courtroom. The MSM is worse than a kangaroo court, not even close to that analogy. Choosing the "high ground" doesn't mean inoffensive manners but raining down limitless cold steel from the heights in the comfort of one's position.

[Deep13]

70. Well said.

:headbang: :yourock: :woohoo: :applause:

[Carolab]

71. Right on the first count, Will. Wrong on the second.

He pounds on the table for me.

[pat_k]

74. They need to JUST SAY NO when they feel compelled to respond directly

When they respond directly, they step onto opposition turf and amplify the damaging message. It is equivalent to causing someone to think of an Elephant by saying "Don't think of an Elephant." There's a lot of buzz about Lakoff and framing around the beltway, but it seems that too many have missed the point.

What to do? Instead of directly responding, take the spotlight they are shining on us and redirect it to something important to voters (for example, the intolerable things that happened in the last election -- and BTW, assertions that we intend to talk about important issues is not the same as actually talking about those issues).

Click HERE for the rest of this post.

Click HERE for a sample dialog that illustrates what I'm talking about.

[quaker bill]

75. It is going to have to get alot louder than this

Republicans did not get where they are (in charge) by playing nice. Newt Gingrich was not known to pull his punches or restrict himself to polite discourse about the facts and laws.

To get where they are, these men spoke abrasively and without significant concern over factual content.

Dean has yet to do anything that even merits comparison to Newt's late night CSPAN diatribes against all things Liberal or Democratic.

If we are going to get back to winning elections, we simply have to quit being the sort of flowing skirt earth-mothers who get all up in a lather about a little blunt language.

The Republicans are White, Christian, and generally more concerned about the wellbeing of the wealthy. While it irritates people when Dean says it, we all know it to be true.

I will grant you this, Reagan was right about his "11th commandment": Thou shall not speak ill of fellow Republicans...

[KoKo]

76. Oh...Jeeze didn't Pitt "Recant" this post...why has it been kicked...

:-(

[kath]

78. Will DID recant this post. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3820252