Does the left need their version of Karl Rove?

[southernleftylady]

what are your thoughts on this

[sui generis]

1. absolutely

the only way to beat a good chess player is with a better chess player.

[centristo]

2. well...

Karl Rove got George W. Bush elected President of the United States...twice. If that doesn't prove that he is the most intelligent political scientist of all time, I don't know what will.

Yes, we need some one with his abilites. We need a genius at the helm. Preferrably not an evil genius...

[lancdem]

3. On Larry King, Clinton said James Carville was his Karl Rove

We do need someone like that.

[AX10]

4. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes,

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

In a word, YES!

:kick:

We need someone who fights hard and dirty. The Repubs do it all the time and we need to do the same to survive.

[expatriot]

5. we would kill eachother over who this "Rove" should be and what the

strategy should be. Democrats don't fall in line and take marching orders as easily as Repugs. The analogy that Democrats are like cats and Republicans are like dogs has a lot of valid points. The expression "like herding cats" of course comes to mind immediately.

[sui generis]

24. clearly we can't even agree on this point

it's not about using the same strategies that they do, but it is definitely about setting a playbook that most of us can get behind, and that the less informed among us can use to reinforce their opinions at the very least.

That's a huge start - and that playbook has to be in a completely different and effective fighting style than the republicans - because doing more of the same won't win our own hearts and minds; neither the status quo nor evil republican shenanigans.

We have to start building associations - republicans are racists, and selfish evil irresponsible intolerant homophobic children, and we are the white knights who will once again have to clean up their stinking mess.

This time I want to re-visit the system of checks and balances with 21st century lessons learned from the Bush administration so that Bush can never, ever happen again short of a civil war or a bloody military coup.

[Protagoras]

6. No...we need Rove to be in Jail for Fraud

and treason...then we need to clean up politics and add some protections so that people can't get away with bugging their own office or planting fake memos in order to steal elections.

We need leaders, not criminals. Let Bubba in prison have Rove.

[Cleita]

11. My thoughts exactly. n/t

[aden_nak]

7. I'm more than happy to quit my job whenever you want me to start.

[expatriot]

9. no, aden_nak.... I believe the orginal offer was made to me. nt

[aden_nak]

12. There's a lot to do. We can split the workload.

[expatriot]

19. fine.... but i get first pick of interns.

D'oh! I just fell into the trap of temptations! I withdraw my self-appointment... it's all yours.

on edit: removed the nt from my subject line because there WAS a message attached... silly me.

[aden_nak]

23. No no! I need all of your demographic data!

Besides, White House staff aside, everyone knows that all the hotties are lefties.

[expatriot]

29. Okay... I'm back in. nt

[Cleita]

8. Absolutely not! What we need is someone who can

anticipate what a Karl Rove is thinking and make a pre-emptive move. This is the winning chess player.

On another level, The Karl Rove's of the world are not deep thinkers but are what is called "street smart". We don't need anyone to represent us who lowers us to the new pimp on the block.

[Protagoras]

13. the term Low Cunning

is the most I'd give Rove credit for.

We do need someone smart enough to expose him. But we also need someone brave enough to prosecute him. Then we'll be doing it right.

[KansDem]

10. I don't think Karl Rove is the "genius" many make him out to be...

Without complete capitulation and complicity on the part of the US media, Rove wouldn't have had near the success he's had in hiding Bush Family crimes while smearing patriotic Americans.

None whatsoever...

[Roland99]

30. And who has been taking over the media of late?

[readmylips]

14. KKKRove is a criminal, we need an outstanding...

citizen, celebrity to make us shine. I select Warren Beatty, Paul Newman and Caroline Kennedy.

[spindoctor]

15. I will repeat what I said in the other thread on this subject

Do we need a Karl Rove?

Yea, let's see if we can win the game on their terms. Let's see if we can defend our true morality by coming up with our own conniving, manipulating, law-breaking background weasel.

How about using such sophisticated tactics as applying truth, common sense and honesty to achieve our goal?

We don't need a democratic Karl Rove, we need a democratic candidate that has not yet pawned his soul to corporate interests.

In addition: We need to do a better job in communicating the issues and stop whining about our media disadvantage. The Republicans are better at that too. If we can't get our thoughts across through the MSM, we'll have to go door to door. There's a solution to anything.
Tens of millions voted against their personal interest because they've been bamboozled into thinking its the 'right' thing to do.

Yes, we need a director, we need a plan, we need somebody who will make the right decisions instead of debating them to death. But we do NOT need anything that compares to a despicable lowlife like Mr. Rove.

[sui generis]

21. we also need to address reality

if you have a rose garden with many wonderful varieties of roses, you have to be willing to prune the aggressive ones to keep your rose garden from becoming a single cultivar. It's not enough to just sit back and let nature run its course in a democratic political system because conservatives, fundamentalists and other extremists will always do their best to subvert the system to their own ends, based on their exclusionary, intolerant world views.

If we're not strong enough and enlightened enough to set standards for what is acceptable in politics as political action, then we're just stupid to rely on checks and balances that can be as easily subverted as ours have been.

[spindoctor]

25. We won't have a rose garden until we plant some seeds and pull some weeds

Right now are garden is covered with little shrub wannabees that will never flower.

[sui generis]

27. oh we do have a rose garden

it was planted a while ago and pretty well thought out. At least two varieties have flourished with some other rarer species, but recently one of the varietals has been afflicted with a rot particular to its gene line, and now there is so much rot that cleaning it up essentially means destroying nearly the entire plant.

We have been indiscrimately cultivating everything that takes root in there, and we haven't set any new standards for how this garden will continue to grow and still have variety in the future.

That's the real challenge: there will always be problems with a political system. It's not that there are problems, it's how effectively you deal with them. Right now the problem appears to be our lack of willingness or inability to address the fact that a socially arch conservative fundamentalist faction can seize power and reduce minority rights, take away personal freedoms and otherwise completely redefine America into a fascist, authoritarian, intolerant, backwards society to further their own ends.

[spindoctor]

28. Gotta love these metaphors

The standards is exactly what I am talking about.

We could spray every infected stem with nasty chemicals, prune what's still salvagable down to the core, put more oil-based chemicals in the ground for added nitrogen and wait patiently for better times.

OR, we plow the whole field down and start over leaving only the few good stems that are left.

If we want quick results (and Lord knows we need them), we got to wake up and notice that there aren't any roses to smell.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. Well said. Enough with politics as usual. We need integrity.

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

34. Bingo. See my post #33. n/t

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

35. Double bingo. Post-Lakoff tactics: expose the lies in a face-saving way.

This underlines my point in post #33 about exposing the lie matrix in a way that saves face for people who have been suckered by it.
Vietnam-era Defense Secretary Robert McNamara talked about how the Missiles of October crisis was defused by finding a face-saving way to do it for all parties. Watch the documentary 'The Fog of War' to see the 11 lessons he learned that we should consider, too.
-poroc

http://www.guerrillanews.com/articles/article.php?id=1010
(Time For Progressives to Grow Up)

>snip<

The Left must get much better, not just at placing its issues in a compelling moral frame, but at exposing and holding the radical Right accountable for its lies and deception – without, and here is the tricky part, making those who have been manipulated feel ridiculed and put down.

[tnlefty]

16. No, I wouldn't want any part of someone who is basically a thug.

Rove is successful because he has no conscience, will do any low-down deed to "win". No thanks. Better to catch someone involved in those types of deeds, expose it and nail them to the wall with it.

[MN ChimpH8R]

17. Jim Carville

did pretty well for Clinton. He understood the basics: "When your opponent is drowning, you throw the son of a bitch an anchor." :)

Rove is a master of the lowest forms of dirty fighting - rabbit punches, low blows and spreading around omnipresent clouds of toxic lies. We desparately need someone with Carville's willingness to be just as mean and nasty, but by using the truth and refusing to let it be spun.

[SteppingRazor]

18. We don't need the next Rove, we need the next big thing.

Big-time political advisors lose their juice alarmingly quickly. In 1992, James Caville was a fucking shark. By 1996, he was near toothless. And look at the difference between the 2000 Rove and now, with the president facing problems everywhere he turns. Look at Lee Atwater under Reagan, and under Bush I ... ah, nevermind. He was even good then.

In fact, look at it like that. Rove's nothing. Lee Atwater destroyed the Democrats on a much larger scale for a much longer time. He came up with Willie Horton, Dukakis in a tank, Mondale as a socialist (though Mondale admitting he'd raise taxes acros the board probably didn't help), and the phrase "tax-and-spend Democrats."

Rove? Shit, man. Rove ain't nuthin' special. The old joke about Carville was that he would light Lee Atwater's heart on fire and then refuse to piss down his throat to save his life. There's plenty of people on either side of the fence that are that hard. The Democratic problem is that we continue to hire the old-guard political advisors, despite their losing records. The Dems need to have fresh blood in the campaign driver's seats. Then, we will stir some shit.

[madrchsod]

20. why?

why would we want someone who lies,cheats,intimidates everyone around him.someone tries to shape reality to advance the destruction of the united states? the democrats don`t need a traitor to this country

[Just Me]

26. No. The liberals just need to feel comfortable with "NO".

"NO" is a complete sentence.

"NO" more lies!

"NO" more underhanded bullying/revenge!

"NO" more manipulation!

"NO" more betrayal!

"NO" more anti-American assasination on the political opposition!

"NO" more rationalizations for destroying rights!

"NO" more embezzlement schemes!

"NO" more justifications for abusive power-mongering!

"NO" "NO" "NO"

[izzybeans]

31. We need Karl Rove like Winston Smith needs a doubleplusmemoryerase

nuff said.

[Roland99]

32. YES! And Here's A Prime Example of Why!

John Edwards responds to the Dean Controversy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1833416

DEAN: REPUBLICAN POLICIES DON'T HELP HARD WORKING AMERICANS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1834118


This non-existent "split" in the Democratic party would have never occurred if there was a central figure directing the Democrats' message.

I don't mean to the point of pushing rhetoric and talking points. I mean putting out a consistent message and educating those in the news how to stay on message while still engaging in thoughtful debate.

[PsyOpsRunsOurCountry]

33. No. Revealing the origin of the state-controlled press is the answer.

The documented truth that the CIA took over our press 50 years ago will open enough eyes to make Americans unwilling to accept permanent oil war by a police state.

I just sent this to Will Pitt as a follow-up to meeting him recently:

"Your du avatar of RFK reminds me-Sunday was the 37th
anniversary of the assassination of RFK and nobody
mentioned it.

And this was in the town where Mark Felt of Deep
Throat fame and COINTELPRO infamy lives and during a
community forum called 'Getting the Truth Out in the
Media.'

Does that strike you as ironic? Segue...

You must expose that THERE IS a state-controlled press to sabotage its poisonous control of Americans who don't even realize it exists.

ABSTRACT:
The Big Lie that Hitler knew was easier to sell than
little ones must be countered by the Big Truth, even
though it is emotionally unsettling. It must be done.

The incrementalism of small truths is absorbed by the
lie matrix and leaves us with a perpetual Vietnam War
Machine with the nuclear risk of The End of the Human
Story waiting to snap like a mousetrap in an
earthquake.

Michael Moore put it well on Leno after 11/04:
"We must learn to tell a better story."

And that better story is the horrible truth about the
CIA and Operation Mockingbird which is documented.

SET-UP:
Your anecdotal description of the MSNBC producer
asking you to lie about WMD inspectors along with Dahr
Jamail's expose of US annihilation of Falluja's
civilians illustrated the symptom of the war-complicit
press.

But if you move past anecdotal evidence about THIS
press and THIS war, you can give a more coherent
narrative to Americans who are desperate for one that
makes sense of the whirlwinds mussing their hair from
THE INSIDE OF THEIR OWN SKULLS.

Many Americans are figuring out the press isn't with
them. But they are ambivalent and vague about it
because they have trouble getting past the Watergate
myth of the Liberal Press Dogging the Heels of Abusive
Power.

Too many Americans still believe the TV, New York
Times and Washington Post, especially with Bob
Woodward now at the helm. And scraps are thrown to
feed American's need to believe there are still checks
and balances.

MY BIG FINGER IN CHEST POINT:
You can't just abandon the state-controlled press and
create alternatives like truthout.org and
informationclearinghouse.com

LIES ARE THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON USED AGAINST US AND
THE HARDEST TO FIGHT.
Convincing more Americans that they are being lied to
for permanent oil wars by a police-state REQUIRES
putting a name and face on the Lie Factory so
Americans can better discern the odorless colorless
gasses of DISINFORMATION just to CONVINCE THEMSELVES
OF A DISTURBING TRUTH and better warn others so they
aren't turned against us for 'hating America.'

SOLUTION:
Simple truth must be told repeatedly by all the Will
Pitt's among us.

1) America was taken over by our KGB, spelled C-I-A
fifty years ago.
2) The 1975 Church Senate Committee hearings on CIA
abuses revealed OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD, the CIA running
the corporate media with hundreds of infiltraitors and
collaborators to keep us in a PERMANENT WAR MENTALITY
for a PERMANENT WAR ECONOMY.
3) So elaborate interlinking cover stories have been
woven into our lives to get us where we are today,
conquering the world like Nazis.

See how easy that is? This COHERENT CONCISE NARRATIVE
is portable enough intellectually to convince not just
lefties, but righties who would be with us, too.

BIG FINISH:
The truth is simple and believable. Let's use it
because having accurate voting systems is USELESS if
PEOPLE BELIEVE LIES.
Right?

Use the words 'Operation Mockingbird' for all its
'James Bond' sexiness and believability and
obviousness once you know it is there.

DON'T JUST RESUSCITATE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY;
RESUSCITATE THE TRUTH OR IT WILL NOT HELP STOP THE
THREAT OF THE BIG ONE: NUCLEAR WAR."

[goclark]

36. Wish Carville wasn't married and a wimp now

Yes, he was a good guy Rove.

We sure need one like him again.