Hey, all lurkers, trolls, and disruptors. We need to talk.

[Dave Reynolds]

I know that you do not wish to hear this from a commie, fag-loving, America-hating athiest, but bear with me a second.

We have a common problem, and I'll get to that in a little bit.

You do not like me, or people with whom I share values. This, sadly, is reciprocated on my part. To me, you are everything that is wrong with America. I'm sure you think the same of me.

You would like people like me out of your country. Believe me, that would be acceptable except for the fact that I was born here, work here, and have a family here. I am not leaving. I, in turn, would like to be free of the one-religion system that seems to be coming into vogue. But you all are not leaving either. So, what to do in such a quandry? I'm sure our respective groups of like-minded folk would love to be left alone to pursue our own little ways, but one thing stops that from happening.

This brings us to the common problem we have: the federal government, and all the politicians therein.

You good folks on the right seem to think that just because the politicians seem to spout all the "family value" promises and buzzwords, these said politicians are on your side. This is not correct. Also, the politicians that we on the left believe to be our saviours seem to keep us in a "eternal hope" position. This is also wrong.

Politicians serve corporations now. We, as citizens, are merely the working stiffs that keep buying all the crap they are selling.

We all are working more hours for less money and fewer benefits. That is, if we are able to get a decent job at all. Does the CEO of any major corporation have cause to say that? No.

Energy prices are rising, which we pay for at the gas pump. But, we also pay for it again with everything we buy. Why? Because the corporations pass the increased cost to us as to not upset their shareholders or decrease the profit margin. Do you think any CEO is going to take a pay cut to help out? Not likely. Are your elected officials doing anything about it to help us out? Not that I can see. I see lots of debate on C-SPAN, but not much real action.

Does the political ideology you hold protect you from this? No. Does the corporate-owned media give you all the information you are entitled to? I'm sure you think so, but those of us who crave information seek other sources and know that this is not the case.

We are becoming the Corporate States of America, and liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, there is very little we can do to stop it. Except for one thing.

We need to stop hating each other for just long enough to stop this hostile takeover of our home.

We need to replace the government, end the hold that corporate power and money has on our democracy. After that, you folks and us folks can negotiate how to split up this land of ours, so that we on the left can have our home to lead lives of tolerance and peace, and you good folks on the left can have whatever you wish. A well-defended border between us would take care of any notions of interference.

Maybe after a few decades like that, we could talk again.

But don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud.

[Fire Walk With Me]

1. After Galloway mentioned DU, membership jumped from 68K to 70.5K.

It's safe to say that not all of them are here as proponents of Democratic discussion.

[Dave Reynolds]

6. I did not realize

the traffic jumped so much after that. I wondered why the new hate mailbag came out so soon.

[applegrove]

13. I wonder that too. I bet there are some sleepers in the bunch. But I

bet you we got some great DUers too.

Welcome all:

Democrats, you go guy/gal.

Freepers?, you'll make a nice snack some day.

[I Have A Dream]

14. Actually, I found you when I was researching Glenn Beck...

saying that he wanted to murder Michael Moore.

I accidentally wandered into this group and was flabbergasted by what I found! I'm now addicted!

[applegrove]

16. What kind of Dem are you? I guess that is putting you on the spot.

Okay I'll ask later when you have had time to acclimatize.

:hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. That's an interesting question.

I'm an long-time Dem and I'm not sure I could answer that. You've given me something to think about.

[I Have A Dream]

23. I consider myself to be a progressive...

and I'm not shy so I don't mind answering(at least not conversing on the computer!)

[Dave Reynolds]

18. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Pacifist Patriot]

19. Welcome!

[proud patriot]

21. Welcome Underground I Have A Dream

:hi:

[annabanana]

38. There's no place like it, Dreamer!

Welcome to DU
:toast:

[AuntiBush]

57. So glad to you found us! Welcome!

:hi: You've found your way to "good common grounds."

[yellerpup]

22. The rising registration at DU makes me hopeful every day

I've been so depressed since B* f-ked us again last November that I check the membership number every day for a lift.
I was attracted by lurker in the subject line. I like to participate here by "listening" to what others have to say on the thread. Many times, what I am thinking has already been expressed. I don't post unless I feel I have something to contribute. Thanks for giving me hope, DU.

[applegrove]

26. Welcome to you yellerpup! That's a great name!

:hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

27. I hope I didn't

offend with the lurker thing, as I was speaking of our non-registered visitors and not our own quiet folk!:hi:

[I Have A Dream]

28. Maybe you can explain to me why people use * and B*

I've seen it used often here, and I've determined that they are in reference to the person who currently resides in the White House. Would you explain why people do this?

Certain pious Jewish groups represent God this way when they have to put the name in print form, but I'm certain that this is not what is meant here!

Thanks in advance.

[bunkerbuster1]

31. Remember how they used to have an asterisk next to Maris' home run record?

It was wrong, mind you, but Major League Baseball, for years, never completely accepted the legitimacy of his season home run record of 61 (in 1961, ironically). The idea was that Roger Maris hit his 61 homers in a 162 game season, while Babe Ruth had hit his in a 154 game season, so Maris' acheivement was somehow not really a record.

So for the rest of his playing days and beyond, Roger Maris always had that damned asterisk next to his record.

People have different reasons, I suppose, for using an asterisk to stand in for our President, but whenever I see it, I think of it as a way to make his Administration seem less than completely legit.

Just my 'splanation, I'm sure there are others.

[Generic Other]

32. The asterisk refers to the fact that * he will always be footnoted

* Selected, not elected the first time. Cheated the second time.

[MadisonProgressive]

33. it's for the fact that GWB will always have an * next to his name

George W. Bush, 43rd president of the United States *


* Was appointed by the US Supreme Court after they halted the legal recount.

[annabanana]

39. another reason for the " * "....

Don't want to inflate the "hit" numbers on the stinker's name..

[NMDemDist2]

43. IIRC Doonesbury "gave" W the * in his strips after the sElection of 2000

[tavalon]

46. As a reference to his being a footnote in history

I sure hope he's right!

[ninkasi]

83. Yes, that's why I sometimes use it

He'd use a cowboy hat, or a roman warriors helmet, or whatever role Bush was playing at the time, with the * underneath. I think he used a giant hand for Ahnold? Herr Gropenfuher was the name he have him.

There are probably other valid reasons, but Doonesbury's is the one I saw and began to use.

[applegrove]

64. Bush is an ***hole. So " * " works on that level too - I was told. n/t

[AuntiBush]

58. Yellowpup: I found, joined and stayed for the same exact reasoning.

Depressed since November, too. Many have been here since after the 2000 election. You and I were late-bloomers to recognizing we'd been "Bush-Wacked!"

Welcome! :hi:

P.S. It takes awhile to feel ready to post something. You'll see. Something will hit you and you'll go for it.

[Atman]

2. Bravo!

nt

[EST]

3. Ya' got my vote!

[Dave Reynolds]

73. Thanks, I'm running for prez

in 2008.

Okay, maybe not.

[EST]

77. At the current state of the art, you're over qualified.

[Pharaoh]

4. well said dave!

nominated................:toast:

[Just Me]

5. The corporacrats are a danger to everything we Americans hold dear.

I wish everyone would read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". We deserve a better America and a better world than what these greedy predators impose upon us.

Thanks, Dave Reynolds, for thinking out loud. :hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

7. It is a rare occasion

that I can be articulate, but I have been working out this one for a little while.

[Raster]

36. Good one, Dave!! Thank you.

It's been a long, long time since the government was of the people, for the people and by the people. What is happening today is PRECISELY what the founders and subsequent American visionaries feared. Congress no longer considers what is best for the citizenry, but for their corporate masters.

[tavalon]

47. I've called them the corporaticans for a number of years now n/t

[yorkiemommie1]

55. ' confessions of an economic hit man'

most important book to read.

and very readable too.

[RevolutionaryActs]

8. Nominated.

Well said Dave. :toast:

[Dave Reynolds]

11. Thanks, kiddo!

:hi:

[oxbow]

9. bravissimo!

We are working on the same thing. Have you seen this site? www.breakthelink.org

[Dave Reynolds]

10. I had not seen that site,

but I have now. Good one, thanks for the link!

[oxbow]

12. Post on your state's forum when you get a chance...

just to say hi and tell us where you are. I'm in VA, and hope to start working on ending legalized bribery after this Conyers' petition thing is through.

[AuntiBush]

60. Thanks for the great link and keep up the great work!

Bookmarked & Thanks!

United We Will Stand. Divided... well, you know the rest. Good site. Very informative and says it all.

[Rebellious Republican]

15. Here is a model of how to do away with Corporatism...........

If everyone started to push for this in every state, it could be stamped out.....................
http://goodgovernment.org/cleankit.pdf

[applegrove]

17. Could there be any X Bill Maherites? His site is closed. n/t

[xchrom]

24. indeed.

corporations are extreme political organizations in charge of our lives.

[jazzjunkysue]

25. Very true: The government McChristian Movement.

Would you like freedom with that?

[benny05]

29. Interesting Post

I'm probably going to commit heresy here, but I believe I'm hearing in some respects that we need some moderate-progressive voices.

The moderate voice needs to be louder if we want our country back. Moderates have won races for the last 30 years on the national level. Moderates entail folks who support Dems, but disagree with some of our platforms. For example, I have a friend who is Catholic, loves her faith, raising her children as Catholics. She is against abortion for herself and probably in general, but she never looks down at other women because she figures the woman's right to medical privacy is the most important issue. Also she is against the death penalty and the war, but with one exception: she believes condoms saves lives against the war of AIDS.

I have another friend who lives in Tampa, FL. He drives a pick-up (albeit a pretty good one), works in construction, very religious, against abortion, and listens to mainly gospel and country. Does he appear to be a Chimperor supporter? Yep. Is he? The answer is no, hell no, because he thinks the extreme right stole our country and he wants a more moderate where politicans compromise (on legislation), the work of our country gets done, and we shouldn't have a heavy debt. Moreover, he is concerned about poverty in a wealthy nation when 1 in 4 or 5 are in poverty or near the poverty line.

Where I live, the Dems in our state legislature pit urbanites vs rural people against each other. I hate it because they are robbing my pensions to pay for pork stuff in the urban areas, and I live in a medium-sized town working for the state in a university setting. I do not belong to a union, but I certainly support unions and the colleagues who belong to them.

So, if you disagree with me, so be it. I love my country, I consider myself a patriot, and I love the DU because I have agreed with many posts here. I love the DU Lounge in particular because there are times I perceive I am meeting kindred spirits. Thank you for allowing me to say my piece.

[Dave Reynolds]

35. I have no quarrel with moderates,

I consider myself to be a moderate, but I have fled to the left in fear and revulsion of the alternative.

I guess my whole point in the rant was to illustrate how divided we are now, and the fact that the division is paraded and celebrated and held up as a gleaming beacon to right versus wrong.

We need to get to the point again where everyone lives their lives as they see fit, without fear of ridicule, reprisal, discrimination, or government intervention. But I do not see this happening now or in the future as long as the assholes in charge are in charge. They need to go, so we the people can READ and LEARN the Constitution, and apply it again to our republic.

[ooglymoogly]

30. worth a big kick and nomination

its the tack we have to take.

[ValentinoM]

34. What am I.. I refuse to be type-casted..

I am not exactly young, new, or fixed in any particular mold.. I watch and read all of the opinions from all sides of the many boxes of issues, and I start agreeing with one side on many more issues than those "other guys", so I must be an X!

HOWEVER, just as I began to get comfortable in my new, well suited idealogical home, one of my new blood brothers/sisters suddenly defines me as an impostor because I am not in absolute total agreement on another subject.. OH MY..

[Dave Reynolds]

37. I'm not sure what you are saying,

but I surely would not like to stifle disagreement. We need more, much more dissent in the ranks.

As I said in my rant, we are all in the same leaky boat. We need to fix it or abandon it.

On edit: Welcome to DU!

[ValentinoM]

41. It is my pleasure to be in such rarefied company

I am a very long time reader, and usually just talk to my computer screen when I get flustered with a thread. My first post was this one because I loved your message, it stirred my juices in several different directions and decided to try the water. Thank you

[Dave Reynolds]

51. I hope I did not offend,

but people from conservative sites spend a great deal of time here, I was mainly trying to reach them.

This is a large and diverse group, but do not be deterred by the harsher voices amongst us.

We bark a lot, but never leave tooth marks.

[annabanana]

40. lol...

every group has "purists". Don't let them chase you away. No one agrees with anyone on everything after all.. (and yes, we can get pretty damn strident in here on occaison... those of us who stick around have learned to roll with it)

[ValentinoM]

42. Thank you for your thoughtful response..

You are correct.. I know that I am not as pure as some would like, but like any good recipe, it takes conflicting flavors to make an exciting dish.. I could never be just bland.. blah.. what fun would that be.. :)

[Rebellious Republican]

44. Well if it helps, I am a former republican and have been posting here

for several years. I have seen it all,heard it all, been flamed, mistrusted and attacked by trolls(my pseudonym is like a lightning rod to freepers).

I have defended liberals, progressives and some conservatives here, I have tried to open my mind to all that have expressed themselves with intelligent thought.

I have sent many freepers down in flames that have tried to disrupt these forums.

I have been admonished by admin for being a little to passionate on some issues.

However, through it all I have been accepted by DUers, never been tomb stoned, and have always treated everyone with the same respect extended to me.

I have learned a lot from many old timers, some of which I do not see around much or at all anymore.

DU is a good place if you are willing to be open minded and do not get offended easily.

Be prepared for anything and take it all in stride!

Welcome and I look forward to hearing your perspective, weather or not I agree or disagree with it. Remember Tolerance is a good thing. RR

[Dave Reynolds]

50. We need more people like you

who are willing to see more than one side.

I never used to care about party affiliation, I would vote for the person and their ideas, not the little R or D after their name. I resent that I no longer feel like I can do that.

We have been divided as a people, and while we are busy fighting amongst ourselves we have been screwed (without the benefit of a kiss or lubrication).

[Rebellious Republican]

74. Thanks DR, believe me when I tell you there are more and more

coming over every day! I know other conservatives that are just now waking from their slumber.

[seabeyond]

70. i am not a former republican, i am not anything,

good post

i have found on du, even though at times i go against the stream on some issue, it has been just fine. and almost always, there is a work in progress in understanding the differences. i have had message delete a couple times, when i knowingly become personal, but never have i had issues with administration, nor posters

further

i have gained tons and tons of valuable information, and i find this place to be a useful tool in getting voice out. i see this site as having the potential to a healthy voice, of the people

[Rebellious Republican]

75. I agree totally with your sentiment SB!

:toast:

[Straight Shooter]

72. Rebellious Republican, you are more rebellious than a lot of Dems

I just went to the site which hosts your upsidedown flag image. Wow! Extreme hostility to the * administration.

I never cease to be amazed at the new sites I learn of from other members of DU.

http://www.linkthing.com/

That's a great sig pic :thumbsup:

[Rebellious Republican]

76. Yes it is pretty radical isn't it!

I forget how I came across that site, I believe I found out about it while posting on DU.

These neocon chicken hawk corporate elites just didn't hi-jack my former party. They also stole my country and I want it back.

I made the switch and celebrated my re-registration as a Democrat while posting here at DU!

I have no regrets and will never look back, I guess you could call me a Yellow Dawg Democrat now!

See ya around the forums. RR

:pals:

[Tux]

45. Typical freeper answer

Why do you hate America?

Jesus was an American NASCAR fan.

We are a Christian nation. Ask Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin.

Duh. Let me ask my minister what I think.

Jesus died for your sins and he hates you.

The Bible shows us how to form a government that allows us to randomly kill with no responsibility for our actions since Satan made us do it but Jesus saved us and wants us to kill you.


Sorry but I'm stuck in freeper land and the only jobs available is in another part of freeper land.

[Dhalgren]

49. Man! This is the best bumper-sticker I have ever seen!

"Jesus died for your sins and he hates you." LOFL! I understand what you are saying - that it is hard to find common ground with people who (in essence) think the way you parodied. At the same time, though, the OP has a really good point - we are no longer being treated as citizens, but as weapons and tools. We are no longer the "sovereign people" - we have become machine-men...

[AmBlue]

48. Makes perfect sense.... Good fences really do

make good neighbors.

[Kurovski]

52. Front page material for DU.

Brilliantly simple, realistic, and a damned important concept.

Americans working together for America. It's time to try that again.

[Dave Reynolds]

53. I thought so.

I had a 5 day weekend with my rather right-wing son-in-law. While we are light years apart in our religious and political ideals, we can agree on one thing: this government is destroying us, and everything the founding fathers seemed to hope for.

If he and I can share some common ground, I had high hopes that maybe we could get together with the right wingers long enough to take this country back. Then we could settle our philosophical differences.

[Kurovski]

59. has anyone told you lately how

cool you are, DR? :-)

[Dave Reynolds]

66. Me and

cool are never mentioned in the same breath. :P

[yorkiemommie1]

54. excellent post!

n/t

[AuntiBush]

56. You were reading my mind! Ok. Open for Chat from Freepers.

Loved reading you're thoughts! I'm in. Someone let me know when the other side is ready to negotiate. Of course, we'll have to wait for them to awaken from their rapture dream.

Till then... :banghead:

[Dave Reynolds]

65. Meh, Freeps probably won't wanna talk to me,

since I'm such a commie bastard baby killer (or something like that).

[AuntiBush]

68. You left out "Godless," "Un-Patriotic," and "F'er!"

Here that a lot!

Add: Can no longer stand seeing those flags on both sides of cars, nor ribbons! Sorry troops. I'm all for you as long as you don't torture prisoners.

Then again, they've been brainwashed for certain, along w/the fundi-nit-wits!

[AuntiBush]

71. Yeah. Have no more patience w/their Cynical Hateful Spiteful Mouths!

With you on that one.

[ArcRabbit]

61. And why are lurkers bad again?

They don't disrupt, they just lurk in the background and read instead of posting all the time. *shrug* I'm a very liberal lurker and I love DU. I may not post a lot, but that doesn't mean I'm in with the trolls, etc.

[oasis]

62. Good point ArcRabbit. Thank you for speaking up.

:hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

63. As I mentioned upthread,

I was speaking to our right-wing lurkers. Sorry if my wording in the OP was not properly thought out.

[arikara]

69. Not to worry about lurking

I have over the magic 1000 mark but I've been here quite awhile and I lurk way more than I post.

[Nothing Without Hope]

67. This is excellent. Thank you. n/t

[Indy Lurker]

78. Independent Lurker

I am very conservative on some issues and very liberal on others.

As far as corporate America goes, it isn't evil, just neutral, and very reactive. Corporate America will go as far as the law allows, and if the penalties aren't too bad, even farther. For them, everything is just business. Laws need to be written to direct their energies in a direction that is positive for the country. The problem is the system is broken. The system is broken because the laws are written to help the corporations and not the country. This is occurring because corporations donate large amounts of money to elect people who think the same way they do. And ultimately, it's the voters fault for electing the candidate who runs the most TV commercials.

We do however, need to be careful in an age of globalization, that we don't make leaving the country and attractive option for corporations. This is the problem facing France. Their work hours, vacation, and health care are so generous that many companies can't afford to operate there. That is why their unemployment is over 10%. In the world market, their level of benefits are not sustainable. It sucks, but this is the stark reality. In the next year or two their health care and unemployment payout will have to be cut before they bankrupt the country.



You also talk about energy prices rising. This is unavoidable. No one is to blame. A barrel of oil has 5.25 million BTU's of energy in it, and to get it, you only have to pump it out of the ground. As the amount of oil in the world decreases, the price will go up until other form of energy are cheaper to use.

Eventually, we will have to go to more nuclear and biomass fuels.

Eventually the other 80% of the world will move up to the US level of energy consumption.

I think you will find that most of the people who voted for Bush choose from the less of two evils in their minds. They selected the "known" in a time of crisis even if the crisis was self-induced.

[Dave Reynolds]

79. Again, a voice of the middle.

This is what we need. Dialogue. And welcome to DU, by the way.

I agree that corporations are not inherently evil, but their indifference to anything but the bottom line is proving to be a problem. For example, company X, who is wanting to open a plant somewhere, holds out for the location that gives them the greatest tax breaks. While good for the bottom line, the location in which they DO build is losing out by providing police and fire services to company X's facilities without additional revenue. And all good corporations wish to have politicians in place who are friendly to their acquisition of market share, and the donations given can buy even the most "honest" politicians favor. This, to me, is a problem.

I know rising energy prices are inevitable. But when a few of our highly placed politicians appear to have an interest in the markets, a segment of the population notices. Also, I just like to bitch about it.

Would you agree that we need to be rid of corporate donations to political parties and candidates? And that, perhaps, an independent news media unbeholden to stock prices would be of benefit to all of us?

While my rant may be construed as left-wing "overthrow the government" whining by our more conservative visitors, I DO think that all of us are in deep kim-chee unless something changes. And soon.

edit: spell

[Indy Lurker]

84. nice idea

I think it is a nice idea to remove corporate donations from politics, but I think you will always run into 1st ammendmemt issues. Short of a new ammendment, it will be difficult to stop people from running TV ads, and currently, this is what's winning elections. I don't really have a good solution. What we need is better voters.

[JRob]

80. i'm in... kick

[true_notes]

81. I fear,

that most of the freeptards will be using the dictionary on some of this post.

[Dave Reynolds]

82. I know that may be true for some,

but I was hoping to reach some of the silent majority that have a bit of functional gray matter. (I try to give folks credit, much to my eternal chagrin).