Americans Tortured to Death An Afghani They Knew Was Innocent

[stopbush]

May 20, 2005
In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths

By TIM GOLDEN
Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

snip

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

snip

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

http://nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?ei=5094&en=8701738ac057aebe&hp=&ex=1116561600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

What ghouls.

They hate us for our freedoms...

[FreedomAngel82]

1. I feel sick

:puke: This is so gross.

[lostnfound]

2. Somewhere, a mother who once cared for that body is broken-hearted.

A mother who once watched those legs with wonder and pride as they stood for the first time, just 21 years ago.

Who held those hands gently when they were tiny.

Who knew those knees and that face when they were small and fresh, and who kissed those knees when they were skinned or that face when it had tears.

Who fed that body so that it would grow from a baby to a boy.

Damn the inhumanity of it all.

[Tigress DEM]

8. Maybe we could find out who she is and send an official...

apology from the PEOPLE of America who in no way authorised these Bastards to do such a thing.

I think we need a Constitutional Convention of Citizens to prosecute these War Criminals OURSELVES.

[leftofthedial]

3. I think we should crucify a couple of corporals

and re-elect repukes

[Hubert Flottz]

12. I think you have a fuc?in' attitude problem...

and I like it! :hi:

Don't you like good ole Republican family values and KKKonservative "MORALITY"?

[leftofthedial]

36. gawd bless Murka

ignorance is strength
war is peace
freedom is slavery

repukes are moral

[Hubert Flottz]

39. Most Reich Wankers are so stupid, they think that...

Roe VS Wade is how you get across the river!

[BeHereNow]

4. SO, what ARE WE going to do

about what is being done in our names
and paid for by OUR tax dollars?
GOD, this story makes me ill.
BHN

[Tigress DEM]

7. Everything we can to see his death was not in vain.

Speak the truth to power, tell your friends about this horrible incident. Make everyone who voted for Bush know that this is the result of that choice. Not in a mean and hateful way, but simply as a fact.

Let everyone know they were duped by rich white men speaking with forked tongues who were saying one thing and doing another and closing doors on their sins.

Out the sinners!

Out the terrorists who have invaded the White House and slain our Democratic freedoms along with this innocent person just because they felt it would be a better way for them to hide their misdeeds.

No American will ever truly be safe abroad again because of this heinous series of War Crimes perpetuated by this administration.

:cry: :banghead: :dilemma: :rant: :grr: :nuke:

[bejammin075]

70. It's time for strategy and activism

I'm not sure what though.

[Tigress DEM]

73. I've been thinking simple... how about apology letters to the mothers...

and families from US Americans that do not agree with the WAR and are trying to get these people out of power?

Remember "http://www.sorryeverybody.com" ?
Then the follow up http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/gallery_00140.html

We could call it "Take Our President, Please" (You know on the old vaudville joke? ... I wasn't old enough either, but those kind of jokes get recycled.) And we could list the reasons we believe he is a war criminal, maybe stuff on Cheney and Gonzales and then put out the apology letters to as many people that we can identify.

[ChemBob]

66. Stop supporting it

Perhaps we should all quit paying our taxes. And encourage everyone everywhere to do the same. They will not stop as long as they have financing to proceed with their ruly of tyranny and death. Why in the name of all that is good and moral should we allow them to continue by financing them?

[zippy890]

84. YES - we can stop paying % of our federal taxes

that is proportioned to the Iraq War and all related war crime costs: torture, gitmo,

We have to draw the line, we have to say NO to these crimes against humanity.

determine the approximate % on the tax dollar that goes to this. Pay taxes for domestic programs, & homeland security and a reasonable defense.

Withold the War Crimes Tax amount and put it in an escrow account.

WE CAN STOP THIS MADNESS.

for our country and our children and our own consciences.

Anybody know how to figure out how much of our taxes go to this?

[The Doctor.]

112. We can stop paying taxes until we are guaranteed

that our money will not be used for these horrors.

That, and I believe that in order to keep our 'elected' officials awash in funding, the SCOTUS ruled that "money is the equivalent to free speech", means that we cannot be 'forced' to voice our support for a government that commits these acts.

Of course it's not that simple...

[JohnyCanuck]

5. Get your priorities right.

Scott McClellan assures us that what really gets the Muslim world unjustifiably riled up at Uncle Sam is Newsweek printing unverified stories about Koran's being thrown into toilets. Chaining innocent Muslim taxi drivers to the ceiling for days at a time and having them undergo a slow death by torture is really nothing at all of significance compared to the Newsweek gaff of printing an unsubstantiated story.

[Hubert Flottz]

14. So what you're really saying is that...

Saddam wasn't really the guy behind the 9/11 attack, that it was really Newsweak?

[RBHam]

6. Because of the 9-11 BIG LIE, innocents must die...

And the soldiers exacting the revenge falsely believed that Muslims planned and executed 9-11...and encouraged officially to feel that hatred...while the true criminals who have benefitted and used the Big Lie so rapaciously are hailed as heroes and patriots...

Truly, Armageddon is upon us and those that have hastened it will NOT be rewarded as they imagine...trouble is, their taking the rest of us with them...

Bastards...

[me b zola]

9. It all lays directly at chimp & Rummy's feet

Military spokesmen maintained that both men had died of natural causes, even after military coroners had ruled the deaths homicides. Two months after those autopsies, the American commander in Afghanistan, then-Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, said he had no indication that abuse by soldiers had contributed to the two deaths. The methods used at Bagram, he said, were "in accordance with what is generally accepted as interrogation techniques."

~snip~

Nor were the rules of engagement very clear. The platoon had the standard interrogations guide, Army Field Manual 34-52, and an order from the secretary of defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld, to treat prisoners "humanely," and when possible, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. But with President Bush's final determination in February 2002 that the Conventions did not apply to the conflict with Al Qaeda and that Taliban fighters would not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, the interrogators believed they "could deviate slightly from the rules," said one of the Utah reservists, Sgt. James A. Leahy.

"There was the Geneva Conventions for enemy prisoners of war, but nothing for terrorists," Sergeant Leahy told Army investigators. And the detainees, senior intelligence officers said, were to be considered terrorists until proved otherwise.

---------------------


Send these reports to The Hague, it's time for the BFEE to answer for their crimes against humanity.

[neweurope]

63. "when possible, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions."

The Geneva Conventions are to be followed PERIOD. Not "when possible".

"There was the Geneva Conventions for enemy prisoners of war, but nothing for terrorists," ... And the detainees...were to be considered terrorists until proved otherwise."

Oh yes, it's high time for The Hague.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[hippywife]

10. My God!

What can a person say to this? Totally horrific.

[leftchick]

11. oh god

words fail. :cry:

[LightningFlash]

13. So this is how liberty dies.....

......To thunderous applause.

Only this time, the people of America are the ones who must take their country back. And roust out the hate floundering lunatics who condoned the destruction of our freedom.....

:patriot:

[PsychoDad]

15. may Allah accept his martyrdom...

And the martyrdom of all the other innocents slaughtered by the american aggressors.

Inna lillahi wa ina illahi ragioon

Remember, this man is but one of probably thousands.

[Enraged_Ape]

16. But you know they would never, EVER, flush a Koran down the toilet

That's just going too far.

[Politicub]

17. What kind of animals could do such a thing?

I'm sickened by this. And angry that this is being done in the name of America.

What other horrors from Bush and the GOP will we learn about?

[stevedeshazer]

18. We are doomed

A billion people hate us now, and we deserve it.

God help us all.

[ClintonTyree]

82. A taste of good old American Democracy.....

isn't it grand? For the life of me I can't understand why anyone could resist the siren song of good old American Democracy, and.....our freedoms! Don't forget about our freedoms!
I've always been skeptical of a "God, in heaven". However, if this God DOES exist, then everyone from bush on down to these murderers will be punished by eternal damnation. How any God could let things like 9/11 down to murdering "suspected" terrorists happen is beyond me.
The World Courts will never bring bush and his henchmen to justice, bush has declared them immaterial and that America doesn't have to abide by the same rules as everyone else. He's "special", rules have not nor will they ever apply to his highness. Born with a platinum spoon in his mouth, receiving preferential treatment his entire life, bailed out on every one of his failed business attempts......he has no idea what it's like to live a life of hardship. I hope to hell he finds out VERY soon! :grr: As loathsome a creature as has ever walked the Earth. :grr:

[Demrock6]

19. For shits sake......

They are humans! Is this part of the winning the hearts and minds of the people project? For real what the fuck?

[ClintonTyree]

75. Not to the swine that perpetrate acts such as this....

our government teaches our service men and women that these are sub-human animals not worthy of respect or basic human dignity. Our government trains them to debase, defile and torture these people in direct conflict with all accepted methods of conduct.

We're 'Murkins, they're just third world "things" have stand in the way of what we want to know. They're totally dispensable. To the American interrogators they're like the Dixie Cups coming out of a dispenser, there's another right behind the one they have and they'll crush this one up and discard it after they're finished with it and grab another.

These people certainly don't "hate us for our freedoms". They hate us because we go beyond the pale of any accepted method of treating people, even POWs in time of war. They hate us because we're Imperialist pigs who stop at nothing to procure whatever resource a country has for ourselves. Any captured US soldiers can now expect to receive the same or worse treatment in the future.

If bush hadn't taken his eye off Bin Laden and illegally invaded Iraq chances are Bin Laden would be caught or killed by now and Afghanistan would be in far better shape that it is at the moment. But bush couldn't resist the siren song of the black goo beneath Iraq's soil and of course, bush's Oedipal complex that made him desire showing his Momma that he was a much bigger man that his Daddy.

It's no wonder that bush, not Bin Laden, not Saddam, is the most hated man on the planet. My only hope is that there is a day of reckoning for bush and his toadies. What these people have done can never be forgiven.

[Straight Shooter]

20. These were/are the tactics of the Taliban. Why are WE doing them?

Really, Mr. Fearless Leader george Wicked bush, explain to us, why are WE imitating the TALIBAN?

Hey, Rove, are you going to call The New York Times now and twist their arm? I don't think so.

[katinmn]

21. The world needs to shut these torture prisons down. Now.

I feel like I'm trapped in a nightmare.

Someone stop them. Please.

[Solly Mack]

22. Sickening

horrified

In a little while the anger will flow but right now I'm beyond words

[E-Z-B]

23. This is the Bu$h team's plan

Try to discredit the media (Newsweek) to make the american public distrustful of reports like this that expose the crimes against humanity from our very own military.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

24. Ashamed

By what is being done to innocents in the name of "freedom" by people wearing the uniform of my country.

*hanging my head*

:cry:

[moggie]

25. In a sense, his innocence is irrelevant

The fact that they believed he was innocent adds to the horror, of course, but it would not have been acceptable to torture him to death whatever he'd done.

[Plaid Adder]

52. There's one sense in which it does matter

not so much that Dilawar was innocent as that his interrogators admit they knew that.

The justification for this kind of torture has been that it was necessary in order to extract life-saving intelligence. It's clear throughout that nobody thought they were getting live-saving intelligence out of Dilawar. THey were only getting their jollies.

After the description of them beating him in the legs because they thought it was funny to hear him yelling for Allah (Jesus wept, and no wonder, by Christ!), comes the description of them 'interrogating' him, which quickly devolves into their beating up on him because he's not 'compliant' with the demands they're making on him--because he CAN'T comply because his body has been too battered already. The final interrogation is about nothing more than the interrogators trying to assert control over what they believe is a recalcitrant body. That's it and that's all. Intelligence gathering is no longer even in the picture.

THIS IS WHAT TORTURE IS ALWAYS ABOUT. It is not about getting 'intelligence,' there are a hundred more reliable ways to get that. It is about power and intimidation and that's it. Ironically, as this article shows, the brutality of the torture seems to derive from the soldiers' sense of insecurity: they don't know how to run a prison, they've never been trained, they're making it up as they go along and they're being *more* brutal than necessary precisely because they are not secure in their own sense of control.

I agree that no matter who they were treating this way it would be unconscionable. The fact that the people who beat Dilawar to death believed he was innocent does matter, though, because it short-circuits the only justification they could give, and it makes an important point about the tortures that went/are going on at Abu Ghraib and, assuredly, at Guantanamo. They are not serving any constructive purpose; they're just the byproduct of a foreign policy out of control, an undertrained and overextended military, and the suspension of human and civil rights in the areas where torture takes place. It has got nothign to do with 'intellgience.'

Hurl,

The Plaid Adder

[Karenina]

87. Stateside statistics for former-soldier suicides?

Anyone?

American military personnel are being, in horrible numbers, forced to engage in behaviour that SO OFFENDS THEIR CORE VALUES AND SENSIBILITIES.

Can someone post the picture of the soldier clutching a dead child in his arms? THAT GUY HAS KIDS. Folterkammer für ALLE. HALLO???

[neweurope]

65. Thank you. Exactly.

Even a mass murderer deserves a correct trial etc. Because he's human ans has human dignity. And because OUR dignity demands that we act RIGHT.

----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Solly Mack]

26. Please help keep this kicked. It needs to be read.

Because it is so horrible...it needs to be read. People have to read this and confront the horror....they have to see what America is doing. What our government is doing. We can't let this story die. We can't just let our government hide this away.

Please help keep it kicked. Please. Send it out on email groups and to web pages...make copies and hand them out.

[Feathered Fish]

27. In Canada,

we had the whole Airborne regiment disbanded for this sort of criminal behavior after a torture and murder in Somalia. You think anything is going to be disbanded here? No. All we'll hear is excuses.

[thecai]

28. It Happens In America, Too

It's no surprise it happened over there...

[geckosfeet]

29. Compassionate conservatism. I am so pissed.

[Dr.Phool]

30. Every person in America should read this story.

This is being done in our names. Our soldiers are going to pay the price.

Last year, I read a book called "Charlie Wilsons War" which went into great detail about the war we financed against the Soviets in Afghanistan. It went into detail about what Afghani "freedom fighters" did to captured Soviet troops. Everything from skinning them alive to literally fucking them to death.

God help us all.

[katinmn]

31. You're right. Our soldiers will pay -- for decades to come.

[Solly Mack]

32. kick

read it...let it make you sick...it should make you sick...then get angry.

[cordelia106]

33. Torture

I do not know what I can add except to say thank-you to the Times

for running with this,and,SEE YOU IN THE HAGUE,MR.BUSH>

[spanone]

34. We KILL detainees, we don't torture them....truth is we do both.

Where are the World Courts?????? Why aren't there riots in the streets? If they can read Newsweek can't they read the NY Times????

[understandinglife]

35. The face of a farmer who got a big dose of Bu$h's version of 'democracy'

Dilawar, farmer and taxi driver


"America" - when we allowed our national election of 2000 to be compromised on Dec 9th 2000, we began watching "America" die. We know how dead "America" is when we look at the face of Dilawar; when we look at what this soldier is carrying:




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3688434

Peace.


www.missionnotaccmplished.us - Be it MNA Day 3 or 8 or 15 or .... the day will come when 10s of millions of Americans and others stop their typical activities for 24 hours and urge 10 times that many to join should another MNA Day be required. On that glorious day what we once called "America" will emerge.

[porkrind]

37. Saddam is photographed in his underwear

and the media will talk about it endlessly, but they won't touch this? Hypocritical traitors.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Americans don't want to know this kind of thing.

It's way outside their comfort zone. So, the NYT should apologize for possibly making some good, loyal, Americans think about something other than what's on sale at Nordstrom's.

[slor]

40. DAMN YOU NEWSWEEK!!!!!!

For making the Muslim world hate us! Oh the humanity!

[Solly Mack]

41. kick

[truebrit71]

42. Unbelievable....I am shaking with rage....

..:grr:

[Tigress DEM]

74. feel 'ya. I'm crying about it today.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Another kick because this story needs to be read.

[retread]

44. After reading this, I no longer doubt evil exists.

*

[Mr_Scarecrow]

45. College Hazing Incident

CHI

ON EDIT
I think that should be the subject line of emails we send out regarding any future torture cases.

[Democracy White]

46. Horrendus

The Dark Nature of our Government at Work.

Although this is nothing new in the realm of war prisoners it is still quite horrendous.
We did the same shit back in Vietnam, where our soliders actually cut off the heads of the members of the Vietcong and put them on stakes, so my mother tells me.

Our adminstratin needs to be held accountable, the question is, whois going to hold them accountable? Like everything else that deals with this subject, it will only be a blurb on the American public mind before something else much more inane and thus deemed "sesational" comes along.

Dee

[Plaid Adder]

47. Notice that the word 'torture' is used exactly once.

And it is as part of a nickname that the self-proclaimed "King of Torture" used for himself. Otherwise it's abuse, mistreatment, etc.

Clearly the NYT has been directed not to use the T-word. Even though this is an article about two guys who were literally beaten to death, it's not torture.

So what's our new definition of torture? Beating a guy to death no longer counts unless you're also dressed up like a member of the Spanish Inquisition?

THe most sickening part is the description of them hitting Dilawar in the legs just to hear him yell because they thought it was funny. These people are going to have a lot of fun reintegrating themselves into society once they get home.

This is it. We're done. We've accepted torture as standard operating procedure. Our depravity is complete.

Sigh,

The Plaid Adder

[Julius Civitatus]

53. Sickening. Just horrendous!

Hi Plaid Adder! In your post you mentioned:

The most sickening part is the description of them hitting Dilawar in the legs just to hear him yell because they thought it was funny. These people are going to have a lot of fun reintegrating themselves into society once they get home.

In a just world those "torture kings" wouldn't reintegrate themselves into society, but rather spend the rest of their lives rotting in jail.

Words fail me to describe the repulsion that this article has produced. As Paul Craig Roberts (a member of the Reagan administration) said yesterday:

George W. Bush and his gang of neocon warmongers have destroyed America's reputation. It is likely to stay destroyed, because at this point the only way to restore America's reputation would be to impeach and convict President Bush for intentionally deceiving Congress and the American people in order to start a war of aggression against a country that posed no threat to the US. America can redeem itself only by holding Bush accountable

Either we make them accountable or we are seeing as complicit in these atrocities.

[progressoid]

48. Freedom is on the march!

Just when I think I couldn't be more embarrassed to be an American.

[CitySky]

49. Not. In. My. Name.

His legs were pulpified from the beatings. "I've seen similar injuries in an individual who had been run over by a bus," volunteered a military coroner.

This is so sick, I am at a loss for an appropriate response.

[Raksha]

50. I started reading this article on another forum but couldn't finish it.

Too horribly painful. I'm amazed the NYT actually had the guts to publish it, even if they didn't use the T-word. We can all figure that out from the descriptions.

Afterthought: I did save the article to print out and read later, lest anyone think I refuse to pollute my "beautiful mind" by confronting the sick depravity of my countrymen. I just can't handle all that grief and shame in one sitting.

[tgnyc]

51. WTF?!!!

Are these shitheads looking for ways to perpetuate anger at the U.S.?

[YankeyMCC]

54. Ugly

I couldn't even finish reading all the accounts in that piece. Ugly was the only word that I could come up with as a response.

This is what humans are capable of, particularly when given unchecked power over others and stressed by things like combat.

And when the people at the top are not fully committed to ensuring the rights and humanity of every one the soldiers under them are at risk of sinking to these depths. And we're all at greater risk because of the consequences of these actions.

And clearly Bush, Rumsfeld and company just don't get it. They see things like the Geneva convention as inconveniences not a way to help us all overcome or at least manage the uglier side of being human. And they are the priests of their own new American religion in which Americans are the "godly" people, somehow exempt from the pitfalls the rest of humanity is susceptible too. At least Americans that follow them, us liberals are just as "fallen" in their eyes.

Yes the soldiers involved in this torture made terrible decisions and took terrible action, yes their superiors share the blame for not giving them the proper training. But the real arrogance and short sightedness to the point of criminality comes from the root, Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, and their cohorts.

Humans are capable of such greatness and that is the only way to counter the darkness we are also capable of, we can only fight that when we acknowledge it is there and our nation is led by the blind.

[thebigidea]

89. you don't need proper training to learn not to beat a man to death

"not trained enough" is not a very excuse when discussing torturers and murderers.

[YankeyMCC]

91. That was a pretty limited

read of my post.

Untrained people, particularly people in these stressful and dangerous situations, are a lot more likely to make mistakes and bad choices. Untrained people will not have gone through any sort of screening process to remove people at high risk of doing these sorts of things under the kind of stress they will be in.

There are of course no excuses to remove personal responsibility but there are larger issues here concerning how to conduct and manage an organization, in this case the military, in such a way as to keep it as humane and as respectful of human rights as possible.

Just pointing to personal responsibility is not going to solve the problem.

[MisterP]

94. hanging someone by his wrists for hours and beating him

aren't mistakes or boo-boos

[YankeyMCC]

96. Glad you are so perfect

I like to think I would not do such things and that the people around me would not. But we are human. Humans do these things.

And it isn't just the people who hung them, it's the people who ignored the signs this was going on, it's the people who heard the yells but swallowed their concerns because they thought this was the sort of thing that was allowed, or that they would be alone in their objections.

Proper training would help some of these people overcome the incessant "The enemy is not human." message that soldiers get inundated with directly or by implication.

And the people who did these things never went through the training that would've included screening which would've kept them from being put into the position of being able to do this to other people.

Again, you're very limited in your view. The perps should indeed be punished but we need to ask ourselves how it is this is happening so often. You're view feeds into "These are just isolated events." "Just some bad apples." the problem is much bigger than that.

[ChemBob]

98. Not on my worst day

would I ever have done such a thing to another human being, no matter what my superiors told me or ordered me to do. So maybe there are differences in people, upbringing or genes or something, but I'm not willing to dismiss such brutality in such a cavalier manner. Sorry to disagree with you but I do think that when it comes right down to it people at the interface of the act have to take the responsibility and then take action to stop those in power above them from promoting and condoning such brutality.

[YankeyMCC]

99. There's a lot more to what I said

that seems to be ignored.

Not sure why this one aspect of what I said is the focus of a thread high jack.

What about everything I said about not escaping personal responsibility?

What about the point of running an organization correctly and giving people what they need? And what about what I said about the responsibility of the chain of command?

What about what I said about these acts being ugly and reprehensible?

Seems like someone is just spoiling for a flame over one aspect with their narrow view and arrogance.

You may feel that you would never do anything horrible (what was that old parable about throwing stones or mote in ones eye??) but humans are capable of such things. There is personal responsibility but also responsibility shared by the Army, the government and us all to fix what is so broken that we are creating situations where these things are happening...not as isolated events but as a problem spread throughout our handling of detainees.

[haele]

101. Anyone who has had to deal with a gang of teenagers

can see what sort of cruelty human beings are capable of. Children are cruel when it suits their purpose.
Most teenagers from any social-economic background will just follow what their peer group leader wants them to do without question - and when most become adults, whenever they're in a situation out of control, they will revert to that form of hive mind - no matter how much of a "responsible, civilized" adult they think they have become.

This is not a valid excuse anywhere, but it is a fact of nature that even the military is aware of. That's why, for most of history and in accordance with our own UCMJ, leaders are held to a higher level of responsibility of the actions of those they command - and if their "kids" are acting beyond the pale, they are supposed to be punished for their incompetence and lack of control as well as the troops that did the criminal act while under their command.

There is absolutely no excuse for anything that Rumsfeld's "leadership" has let happen. His lick-spittle generals are as guilty of outrageous, inhuman and illegal torture, mutilation, and murder as the troops and the civilian thugs that have been left in an inhuman environment without oversight and responsible leadership are. And he is responsible for fostering the environment that will corrupt and destroy the minds and morals of those who serve under his command.

The World will not forgive us these actions. Neither can I, a retired Navy Chief who had the training covering what to do in situations like this, and how much awesome responsibility is involved when commanding people in life and death situations, can forgive these actions.
I am spiritually sickened for has happened, mourning both types of victims; the poor civilians and yes, even captured "illegal combatants" as well as the grunts cut loose to follow their basic instincts without any leadership or restraint. Both, if they survive, will come back from this experience irreparably damaged.

There is absolutely no reason for this kind of brutal torture. There is so very little valid information that can come from it, it is not worth the price and effort for what becomes a basic exercise in immoral pleasure seeking and personal justification.

Haele

[pop goes the weasel]

104. Amen

I sure wish more former military officers would speak out. Because the troops take the cue from their officers, there is no need for this to be happening, unless it is the deliberate policy of the government. And there is ample evidence that violation of human rights has become the policy of the government. The elevation of people like Negroponte and Bolton to positions of insider-authority is testament to it.

[spanone]

55. I hope Mr. Dilawar appreciates democracy Bush* style.

We are quite the humanitarians.

[NVMojo]

56. WE HAVE BECOME A NATION OF SHAME!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. And, another kick. Everyone should read the full story.

And, email it to everyone they know.

[DearAbby]

59. I am shamed to the very depths of my soul

and I feel so helpless. I am so very ashamed of what my country has become. All those that had defended her in the past, must be crying with us.


Is it time yet?

[geckosfeet]

58. Mr.Rummy, what do you think of this incident and how do you think

it reflects on the US Forces in the field and the United States in general ?

Do you think this incident contributes to the safety of US citizens at home and abroad ?

Mr.Rummy, do you think that this is the type of military that the citizens of the United States should be proud of ?

Will the real free press please stand up.

[Time for change]

60. That is so sad. n/t

[arcane1]

61. "farmhouse he shared with his wife, young daughter and extended family"

:cry:

:puke:

:cry:


I have no words...

[Mandate My Ass]

62. I feel sick

Nor were the rules of engagement very clear. The platoon had the standard interrogations guide, Army Field Manual 34-52, and an order from the secretary of defense, Donald H. Rumsfeld, to treat prisoners "humanely," and when possible, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. But with President Bush's final determination in February 2002 that the Conventions did not apply to the conflict with Al Qaeda and that Taliban fighters would not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, the interrogators believed they "could deviate slightly from the rules," said one of the Utah reservists, Sgt. James A. Leahy.

"There was the Geneva Conventions for enemy prisoners of war, but nothing for terrorists," Sergeant Leahy told Army investigators. And the detainees, senior intelligence officers said, were to be considered terrorists until proved otherwise.

How in hell does someone locked up in a 6 foot cell 24/7 prove a negative, particularly when denials are seen as non-compliance or defiance? Is this as utterly insane as I think it is?

Those senior officers should face the ICC.

And then there's this:

The three passengers in Mr. Dilawar's taxi were sent home from Guantánamo in March 2004, 15 months after their capture, with letters saying they posed "no threat" to American forces.

They were later visited by Mr. Dilawar's parents, who begged them to explain what had happened to their son. But the men said they could not bring themselves to recount the details.

"I told them he had a bed," said Mr. Parkhudin. "I said the Americans were very nice because he had a heart problem."

[Ms. Clio]

113. "considered terrorists until proved otherwise"

Guilty until proven innocent, yet tortured and murdered without so much as a trial.

What goes around comes around, America.

[converted_democrat]

64. I don't blame them for hating us....I hate us too.

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

[MN ChimpH8R]

67. Kick

Read the whole thing in the NYT and have never been so ashamed to be an American. Disgusting, tragic, horrible. Poor Dilawar - and his little girl having to grow up with no father - all to satisfy the macho posturing of Chimpy and all the little Chimpys who carry out the orders. :cry:

What kind of morans do they let into the Army? Aren't freaks like these supposed to be weeded out with some kind of psych tests? :grr:

Haul the entire criminal BFEE to the Hague. Do they still hang war criminals?

:kick:

[riverwalker]

68. "poorly trained and unprepared guards"

WTF? A sad commentary when we need to "train" people in humanity. We need to "prepare" these guys to know how to treat another human being? What the hell were their parents doing for 20 years? :mad: :mad:
My Dad was in a German POW camp for 10 months, captured before the Bulge. Even the frickin' Nazis didn't treat their POW's like this.
Support the troops? Sure, when they conduct themselves as "troops", as soldiers. When they are sadistic monstrous perverted punks, I'll only support their prosecution.

[nytemare]

69. This is not the Army I served in.

what can I say. The Emperor has won. We have fallen to the dark side....but there is hope.

[bornagainhuman]

72. RETURN FROM THE DARK SIDE

Your right there is hope there is always hope for these people. A little more than a year ago i was a die hard right wing consertaive who used to think what ever we did to these people was fine, they deserved it cause of what they did to us. Everybody but the republicans were evil and living in a fantasy world were we could be nice to people. War was good and the only way, I hated the "hippies" who opposed the war and thought they should be nuked with the rest of the middle east. But even i changed, its not that these people are unintelligent its that they are in a way brainwashed and simply cant accept another more peaceful way. They belive that for the US to controll anything is the only way to have a civilized world and the ends justify the means. I now regret haveing sold my soul to the goverment for 4 years right out of high school. But as i wait out my time here my eyes open more and more each day and with them my heart. I can feel the pain of the mother and father of that poor man. And I hate that these crimes are being commited by my brothers at arms. My daughter has helped to open my eyes to what love and life really are and i can now see the error of my ways. i am now a libertarian and a "hippie" so to speak. i love this country but hate what we have become but i know in my heart that there is hope even for Bush. If i can change we all can and i know that we just have to open peoples eyes. do not insult these people but pity them insulting them only closes them up more and convinces them they are right. Love and peace are truly the ways to change people that is how my family has changed me and that is how we can change others.

[HeeBGBz]

76. Welcome back

And welcome to DU.

[Swamp Rat]

77. Welcome to DU!

There is no hope for Bush. None.

He committed genocide and he will eventually be tried in the Hague for it.

[ClintonTyree]

78. Welcome to DU...

and welcome to the side of truth, justice and the REAL American way! :hi: I wish you could talk to my brother. He sounds just like what you USED to sound like, especially the part about the Conservatives controlling the world to be the only way for a civilized world. The facts fly in the face of that, it's the most destabilizing force in the world today.

Glad you're here. When my daughter was born I had an epiphany myself, so I know exactly what you mean. Children have a way of opening your eyes. They remove that "filter" that was in place before that time.

Jump in often and let your voice be heard. We have to change the minds of our fellow citizens one at a time.

[zippy890]

85. Welcome to DU

Your words are powerful and important. I think we here can learn a lot from your insights.

".....do not insult these people but pity them....Love and peace are truly the ways to change people.."

:thumbsup:

[pop goes the weasel]

102. Welcome

I would love to learn more about your journey. Perhaps if you could write an article about it for DU, more people would see it and learn how to be encouraging of real change. Perhaps even some warmongers would find it and follow your path.

[bornagainhuman]

107. Thank you everyone

I am truly honored and flattered by all of your kind words, nothing would give me more pleasure than to have the opportunity to help change the minds of some of the poor misguided people in our society and i would be honored to write an article. as i am new here i really do not know how to do so and would appreciate anyones help or advice in the matter. on a different note there is one piece of information i would like to expose as many people to as possible for i fear it is the beginning of the undoing of our nation as it was intended to be, free. there is an article currently on the main page about the patriot act i would highly encourage you to read this if you have not already and if you have please go back and take another look at it as I am sure there is new information. This one is truly too important to our future to let die. There is believe it or not another frighting policy change in the works called the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. This document was leaked by some brave soul in the administration and then later released in full by the white house. Believe it or not this frighting document proposes to allow SECRET ARREST BY THE GOVERNMENT!!! I encourage all of you to look into this issue very closely and inform as many people as possible as our very freedom is now at stake. But in conclusion i would like to say once again thank you for welcoming me and i hope to continue to encourage positive change as you continue to open my open my mind.

[pop goes the weasel]

109. here's how to write for DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/writing.html

[funflower]

71. I take back whatever I said about the NYT.

They earned their pay today.


:applause:

[Karenina]

79. Too much of what was once America

has become so mean-spirited. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[mopaul]

80. them's the ones what attacked us turn the landscape to glass

said clyde the slackjawed bush lover

[AzDar]

81. I think John McCain should be asked how he feels about the Republican

Party when something like this comes to light....

[lonestarnot]

83. And there you have bushitler's war of lies!

[Justpat]

86. I read the whole thing yesterday.

It made me feel physically ill.

Under Bush's direction this has become a country that lost its
honor and its soul.

It has become the embodiment of everything we formerly claimed
to hate.

[zippy890]

88. kick

[Chomskyite]

90. My idea: call local and national Right-wing talk show hosts

And ask them what they think of it. Whether this makes them proud. When they say "it's a few bad apples," say, "well it's been more than a few and there's been plenty of time for them to be taken out of the barrell? Who's responsible now that we know they haven't been."

Or say whatever you feel like saying. Just challenge the Right-wing weasels by getting this on the air for the drive-time traffic to contemplate. They might not hear about this any other way.

[Mnemosyne]

92. It's horrible and so sad that

there are those that could do these things to another human being.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :grr: :nuke:

How could we ever make this up to those being tortured and destroyed by our government?!

[understandinglife]

93. A 3 y/o fatherless infant: Another legacy of atrocity-maestro BU$H

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3699246

Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us - Tragically on the path to MNA Day 4

[Up2Late]

95. Here's the LINK TO PART 2 of this 2 Part Report, Posted Saturday P.M.

It is part two, but is dying the quiet death of less interesting Headline.

Army Faltered in Investigating Detainee Abuse -NYT

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1490592>

[demo dutch]

97. Poorly trained is not, the only problem. Think of the mentality first of

all, and consider where some (not all) of these soldiers are recruited from, gun loving red states with these red-neck, dumb fuck attitudes. What the hell do you expect! Apparently some don't even have a high school diploma, and they voted for the idiot!
When you lower the standards at the top it trickles down the food chain.

[McCamy Taylor]

100. This is why they hate us, not because of Newsweek.

[pop goes the weasel]

103. He was singled out for being frail

For Mr. Dilawar, his fellow prisoners said, the most difficult thing seemed to be the black cloth hood that was pulled over his head. "He could not breathe," said a man called Parkhudin, who had been one of Mr. Dilawar's passengers.

Mr. Dilawar was a frail man, standing only 5 feet 9 inches and weighing 122 pounds. But at Bagram, he was quickly labeled one of the "noncompliant" ones.

<snip>

"Selena berated him for being weak and questioned him about being a man, which was very insulting because of his heritage," Mr. Ahmadzai said.

This is regular Lord of the Flies stuff--abuse the weak because they are weak, and abuse them more as they become weaker. The soldiers who perpetrate these atrocities are not warriors--they are gang-bangers, and they were purposefully chosen and put into their specific positions by the Bush Administration. The Bushies wanted to use torture, and they made damned sure that the grunts running the prisons were the ones most likely to employ it with a free hand. This business of the soldiers being "untrained" is rot. It was their lack of training and self-discipline, their lack of basic morality, that made them suited for the Bush purposes. If the Bushies had wanted something different, even if all they had was untrained young troops, those troops would have been under the command of seasoned officers. But the officers who did indeed pass through often (according to the article) obviously either were not well-trained themselves or were part of a deliberate policy to inflict torture. Either way, the rot is at the top, and it has trickled down and rotted the entire barrel.

[frankly_fedup2]

105. I thought every story having to do with U.S. troops were to be

approved by somebody in the White House? (That's what Newsweek said. They stated the White House had Ok'd the article???).

If this is true:

1. What happened to a free press?
2. What happened to freedom of speech?
3. How did this story as well as other terrible stories of torture by our troops getting in the news?

My bad. For a minute I forgot the Constitution and Bill Of Rights mean nothing to this bunch of Republican bullies and thugs.

[Cobalt Violet]

106. Some "Culture of Life"! Can we call them Nazis yet?

[malmapus]

108. I took down my flag after reading this

My God, what are we doing to these people, and I say WE because our tax money is going toward funding this shit. What the hell does this country stand for anymore.

I dunno when I can fly my flag again. These godless motherfuckers runnings this country, there is a special place in hell for them.

[katwoman]

110. Disgusted but not surprised

This is only the tip of the iceberg and we are on the Titanic. This kind of thing is happening all over the world and the criminals in the administration don't even care that these stories leak out. I say leak out because the really hard hitting reporting has been totally absent since President Bush's "Second Coming"! I have never seen or heard such anger toward our own government from the masses of persons of all political leanings as I have in the last year. It will not stop by itself and outrage is not enough to stop it. Everyone who hears this and the other horror stories has to make their voice heard. Let these senators and representatives know they do not have a lifetime appointment if they do not reflect the morals and ideas of the American people. I truly believe that the American people as a whole are caring and generous and will fight for their freedom. Don't just give them away by staying quiet. The Bush administration has been compromised by thieves, murderers and liars beyond description. His only mandate is to get out. God help us all.

[jarab]

111. Welcome to DU, katwoman !

...O...

[Ms. Clio]

114. I hope you are right, katwoman

Great first post--welcome to DU.