Documentary spotlights Catholic denial of paraplegic weddings

[rainbow4321]

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=77128

Flavia Fontes was talking on the phone when a headline in a small Brazilian newspaper caught her eye:A paraplegic man was forbidden to get married by the Roman Catholic Church because he was impotent. Even though Fontes, a Brazilian filmmaker living in New York, was already immersed in another project, she decided she needed to capture Hedir Antonio de Brito's story. The result is "Forbidden Wedding," which premieres on the Sundance Channel at 9 p.m. EST Monday.

De Brito was two weeks away from marrying Elzimar de Lourdes Serafim, a widow, in August 1996, when he received a shocking letter from the local bishop denying their application for a marriage certificate. According to canon law, any man or woman who is impotent and unable to have intercourse cannot get married. De Brito wrote a letter to Pope John Paul II to appeal the bishop's decision, but didn't get a response.

<snip>
Their friendship and mutual acceptance - she had no education, he was in a wheelchair - soon developed into romance and they decided to marry. Wedding plans were well underway when a local priest asked de Brito during premarital counseling if he was impotent and de Brito answered him honestly. The priest told de Brito he couldn't marry the couple, which the bishop's letter confirmed.

"If (de Brito) had left the issue in doubt, it wouldn't have been a problem," said the Rev. Dr. Bernard Olszewski, a canon law expert and vice president for academic affairs at Hilbert University in Hamburg, N.Y. "Unfortunately, he gave full disclosure. In a pastoral sense, it would have been better for the priest to have a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy."

[Solly Mack]

1. Ah..so if he had lied, the church could have accepted that

LMAO

[Javaman]

23. Nice to know that lying is now an accepted practice by the church...

Knock me over with a feather.

Nothing like a little peace love and understanding, huh?

Does this apply to lepers too? Oh wait, Jesus helped them because he knew that they can still put out.

So let's review, if you have an incurable disease, are a hypocritical prick, a huge donor to the church or a repuke, you get a free ride.

However, if you are gay, handicapped, a Democrat, can't put out, then you are banned.

Whew, now that that's clear, I have short message for the church...go fuck yourself!
Oh wait, what if you have an impotent priest? then what? that priest shouldn't be allowed either. But how would one know that? Ask the hundreds of pedophile priests out there. what a colossal bunch of idiots.

Left the concept of church when I was 12, never looked back.

[Solly Mack]

26. My thoughts exactly!

[CatholicEdHead]

2. What?

So, if you cannot in theory have kids, you cannot get married? This is another rule that needs to be tossed out. Marriages does not have to mean procreation.

[Ian David]

4. No, no no! We have to insist the Catholic Church stick to its own rules!

We need to encourage them to enforce this.

We also need to make this rule a TALKING POINT WHEN DEBATING GAY MARRIAGE!

[Virginian]

18. No woman over 50 is allowed to get married?

Does the church discriminate on the basis of age?

No woman who has had a hystorectomy is allowed to get married? Hasn't she already gone through enough?

They both fall under the "not able to have children" rule.

[RPM]

47. Fertile Octogenarian

I assume that canonical law probably has a rule similar to the "Fertile octogenarian" rule in American Estates law, under which it is assumed, even post menopausal, that the woman may get pregnant...


Makes sense for a religion that focuses so closely on an 'immaculate' conception.

On another note, they could have adopted and become parents... why doesnt that count?

[ClintonTyree]

33. Ahhhh, there lies the rub....

the Catholic Church teaches that marriage exists ONLY to procreate. That is the purpose of marriage, to spit out as many little Catholics as you can. Hence, abortion, birth control etc. are outlawed because that would cut into the Church's profit margin in the future. The Catholic Church's dream of a world saturated with tithing, writhing, procreating followers is crashing and burning around them. They see themselves losing control of their empire, but rather than adapting and evolving with the world, they'll continue hawking the same old product thus dooming themselves to extinction.

Old men setting repressive, recessive boundaries for "followers" (my, how I loathe that term) without any thought to future generations and absolutely no "wiggle room". It sounds a lot like the Republican party, if you ask me.

[LdyGuique]

3. Since impotency is a dual issue --

one of inability to consummate and one of inability to procreate, this is the basis of the idiocy. It also means that seniors cannot marry nor anyone who knows themselves to be sterile. The Catholic church is out of step with reality on many issues -- the one of being able to procreate is one of the worst as it is behind the no birth control, etc.

Leave it to a bunch of celibate men to determine life for all others within the church.

[Ian David]

5. Kick and nominate for top. We need to ride this one for all it's worth n/t

[Frances]

6. Does the Catholic Church refuse to marry women

who are past menopause? They can't procreate.

These guys are really turning me against religion.

[Southsideirish]

9. What about priests and nuns - no kids forthcoming there either!

Will they get a "pass" at the pearly gates?

[CatholicEdHead]

12. Different type of sacrament

they recieve the "Holy Orders" sacrament, which is different than the "Marriage" sacrament that everyone else gets. You cannot have both at the same time. (thought many priests and nuns have gotten married and had the latter sacrament replace the former in the church's eyes)

[Southsideirish]

7. My brother, a life long, devout "old" Catholic (denied Vatican II)

and his wife believe they will burn in hell because they never had kids.

[expatriate]

14. But if they didn't practice birth control

and didn't have kids, wouldn't that be "God's will"? Why would they then be sent to hell, if they didn't do anything to derail God's will?

[outrage]

50. LOL

My brother, a life long, devout "old" Catholic (denied Vatican II)
and his wife believe they will burn in hell because they never had kids.

For some people with kids, eternal hell fire would be preferable.

[KaliTracy]

8. there are a whole host of reasons why couples aren't permitted to

marry -- here is a list --

* from different tribes,
* from the same tribe
* of different races
* of a particular race
* of different religions
* infertile
* disabled
* developmentally handicapped
* of the same sex (scroll down on page to see link for its own page)
* of different status (e.g. slave and free)
* too closely related


Religious Tolerance http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_mar3.htm
the site gives background and then refutes all of these reasons

[DemBones DemBones]

41. You left out something important -- the CONTEXT

Anyone who takes a minute to click that link will see that the list you gave was prefaced by these words:

In various societies, in various eras, marriages are or were forbidden if the couple were:



The list you posted are NOT reasons the Roman Catholic Church forbids marriage but a list of all the reasons anyone, at any time, has forbidden marriage. Quite a difference.

[KaliTracy]

46. actually, my point was that it's not just a Roman Catholic "thing"

and that many religions did/do practice such exclusions. The site gives the background to these exclusions, which is what I said in my original post.

By telling readers here that the site was titled "Religious Tolerance" (not "Roman Catholic Church Tolerance") I thought that was clear.

sorry I was mistaken on edit -- (that my point wasn't clear as I thought).

[silverweb]

10. That is absolutely sick!

I heard a priest say one time that "there can be no sex without marriage and no marriage without sex." I laughed then, but I'm not laughing now.

The other church requirement for having sex, besides being married, is that it be for the purpose of procreation. So I guess that effectively rules out any marriage for women who are known to be unable to bear for one reason or another, be it congenital defect, injury, illness, or age, right?

And no late life weddings for any of you widowed oldsters! Don't go getting any funky ideas about enjoying marital companionship or sex in your golden years -- and no hanky panky outside of holy wedlock, either, or you'll be sent straight to hell!

Where do they think they get the authority to make these kinds of stupid rules that have absolutely nothing to do with God, spirituality, or the Gospels?

Oh, yeah, it's because they say so.

Yeah? Well, fuck you, you crusty old pedophiliac bachelors -- and not in the nice way, either!

:grr:

[zalinda]

20. Which would also mean

that when your wife got pregnant, no more sex until she could get pregnant again. So, a couple could only have sex about once every 9 months.

zalinda

[silverweb]

29. A very good point.

I hadn't thought of that one at all!

Good thing I'm not Catholic. I'd be completely SOL - divorced and postmenopausal!

:D

[LeftyMom]

35. I don't think so

The church also praises the way sex brings a couple together. The teaching is that a couple shouldn't interfere with the reproductive potential of sex, not that all sex must be potentially reproductive.

After all, the church allows the use of natural family planning, the whole idea of which is to restrict sex to the infertile parts of a woman's cycle.

[zalinda]

48. Except that my mother told me

she had to confess every time she had sex with my father. I think that was one of the reasons she left the church. And, yes, she had 6 children, just about 1 every year. Things may have changed, but women have always been the fall guy in the church.

zalinda

[SoCalDem]

31. Making rules about sex makes it less "animal"... n/t

:)

[knitter4democracy]

11. Not to be nasty, but they should switch to the Orthodox Church

We never got that weird about sex, and I can't think of any bishop who wouldn't let them get married in our church.

Of course, we never said that sex is only for procreation or that Original Sin is passed on at conception. I think having married priests has helped with that.

[blue neen]

13. Oh, for crying out loud...the compassion just oozes

out of the churches' pores, doesn't it?

They are advocating breaking one of the commandments at the same time they deny a couple happiness.

<as she runs faster and faster away from the church every day>

[Chovexani]

39. Ha! I've been sayin' it for years

The Church totally jumped the shark.

[Ezlivin]

15. And don't forget that us paraplegics are heavily into sodomy

Paraplegics are, by far, the best at oral sex. When it's all you got left, you major in it.

I suppose that this, too, would be grounds for denial.

[Candide]

16. How can you reaallllly be sure you are impotent

until you try? Are they advocating premarital relations now? :)

[tanyev]

17. Soooo,

if a couple is infertile, either the man or the woman, it would be perfectly OK in the eyes of the Catholic Church that they just "lived in sin" rather than getting married? Catholic DUers, go ask your priests. I want to know!

[FizzFuzz]

19. kick and recommend

This story sure spotlights the LACK of compassion in conservatism.

Good factoid to keep in mind should one have to talk to a FMA hatemonger.

[TWiley]

21. Church people are obsessed with SEX

Well, if the spouses health changes and they cannot have sex, then they should divorce?

[0007]

22. Where have the Christian ethics gone......

I don't understand where the Church is coming from. Christ didn't talk about doctrines & rules, He talked about Love, Peace and giving to the poor hungry and thirsty souls of the world.

The Church is much too rigid and will surely break if it doesn't learn to be flexible like a wind blown tree.

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. What insanity!

[UdoKier]

25. Wow, that's just mean.

Besides, who's to say that "God" or "Jesus" or "Mary" won't bring about some miracle and make a baby happen?

Also, can't impotent men still have babies with in vitro fertilization?

Or is that a no-no with the Catholics too?

[Dangerously Amused]

27. Infertility Challenge

Maybe the church can set up an "Infertility Challenge," so if he gets her pregnant first, THEN they can get married.

'Course, then he would have to confess and be really, really sorry for the premarital sex that allowed him to get married in the first place, and then maybe the priest could assign like three Hail Marys and a couple Our Fathers to attain forgiveness, and then God and everybody could be happy again.

[Dangerously Amused]

28. Infertility Challenge

Maybe the church can set up an "Infertility Challenge," so if he gets her pregnant first, THEN they can get married.

'Course, then he would have to confess and be really, really sorry for the premarital sex that allowed him to get married in the first place, and then maybe the priest could assign like three Hail Marys and a couple Our Fathers to attain forgiveness, and then God and everybody could be happy again.

[HockeyMom]

32. Got in argument with Priest over this back in Catholic HS

I went to an all girls Catholic HS. In Senior year before we "went out into the world" we had to go away to retreat and reflect. My argument to the Priest was that if procreation is THE reason for marriage and every sexual act must be open to the conception of a child what about menopausal women? They cannot have sex anymore before they are infertile and having sex without procreation is going against God's will? What about marriage? Would the church deny menopausal women the right to marry because they can't have kids? How about the infertile? I knew a girl in school who had ovarian cancer and had them removed at 16 years old. Should she be denied marriage because she cannot procreate?

Incidentally, my friend did get married in a Catholic church. They never asked her if her ovaries were intact. lol She also ADOPTED and raised 3 beautiful kids. What in the world is wrong with that? Somehow I cannot imagine her being condemned to hell for having non procreative sex in marriage and opening up her heart and home to somebody else's unwanted kids.

As I have said many times before, the Catholic church lost me as a teenager over the issues of marriage, birth control, abortion.

[jwirr]

34. Especially in a third world country where

there are no doubt many street children in need of a good family. This is the height of idiocy and cruelty. I am interested in the new popes answer.

[KamaAina]

30. Paraplegics are not necessarily impotent

there is a technique available involving the implantation of a bulb, and as it was described, "lovemaking becomes as simple as honking a bicycle horn".

(There! Put "honking the bicycle horn" right up there next to "milking the horse"! :-) )

I suppose the Church has some objection to this, too? "Artificial means" or something like that? Well, then, what's their stand on Viagra? Inquiring minds want to know...

If you needed any more proof that people with disabilities are an oppressed, marginalized group, look no further.

edit: Just last week I met a four-year-old and her dad, who is a quadriplegic. Put that in your incense holders and smoke it, fuddy-duddies!

[WindRavenX]

36. Fucking disgusting

What would Jesus Do?

Something tells me he wouldn't do this bullshit :grr:

[NMMNG]

37. Christo-facism

Nobody is safe in its wake.:scared:

[bonzotex]

38. Hilarious

Pre marital sex NO NO NO
If you aren't married you can't screw.
If you are married you must screw, in fact you have to be able to and can't shoot blanks or be barren or you can't marry.
So if you can't or won't procreate you can't have "God Approved" sex or a "God Approved" marriage. All that is not expressly approved is prohibited, everything not prohibited is mandatory.

LMAO...

[silverweb]

51. Bingo!

"All that is not expressly approved is prohibited, everything not prohibited is mandatory."

Straight out of Orwell! Too bad he's not around to see everything he wrote about coming to pass. Then again, he'd probably wish he wasn't around to witness it....

:(

[Zhade]

40. Notice how some DUers (you know who you are) are silent on this...

...yet jump to defend the church's anti-GLBT bigotry.

Speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[REP]

42. You Mean the Anti-Abortnoids?

No, I'm not at all surprised. They tend to avoid these difficult issues. It's easier to deny rights that some find 'icky' (reproductive and gay rights); everybody loves weddings.

[misanthrope]

43. I have to give them points for consistency...

...For years, the Catholic Church's policies and subculture have prompted me to start referring to them as the Church of Holy Propagation. It seems pretty plain to me that one of their principal tenets is that humanity should be focusing a great deal of effort on breeding as fast and as furiously as possible.

This is entirely congruent with that.

[DemBones DemBones]

44. In Roman Catholic theology, sex is an essential part of marriage that

should be enjoyed by a couple throughout their marriage, not just a means of procreation.

If it were all about procreation, the Church would urge older couples to abstain from sex, which it doesn't. In fact, I recently heard a conservative priest preach about the beauty and joy of sex in marriage and he mentioned that it was wrong for either spouse to deny the other sex when it was wanted, and that it was wrong for a married couple not to have sex just because they're older.

One of John Paul II's most important works, by the way, is "The Theology of the Body," which says a great deal about sexuality.

Thus, an impotent man is denied a Catholic wedding because his physical impediment would deny his wife an essential part of marriage. You may not agree with the rule, but it is a logical rule meant to protect the woman and guarantee her a happy marriage.


Impotence has always been grounds for civil divorce, and for civil annulment (of a marriage unconsummated due to the husband's impotence), so it's not just the Catholic Church that thinks sex is an essential part of marriage.

[medeak]

53. my best friend is a paraplegic

a reknown md who fell off roof last year putting up xmas lights. Pray tell he pleases his wife..besides still practicing medicine albeit it takes him 3 hours to dress in am.

[Solon]

56. Where's the logic again?

You Said: Thus, an impotent man is denied a Catholic wedding because his physical impediment would deny his wife an essential part of marriage. You may not agree with the rule, but it is a logical rule meant to protect the woman and guarantee her a happy marriage.


OK, first of all, THEY are being denied a Catholic Marriage, I don't know about you, but I heard it takes two to have a marriage. Second, since he fully disclosed to the Bishop his impediment, I think his wife to be already knows as well, and also has no problem with it. Given this information, the Catholic Church is stepping over the line in this, who are they to tell her what is best for her in this matter? Why does the Church insist on Bullshit of this sort.

In regards to your other comment in bold, that is true, however, usually the divorce is granted when the condition is created AFTER the marriage has taken place, and the woman in question WANTS the divorce on those grounds. She takes the initiative, as is her right, IT IS NOT THE RIGHT OF THE CHURCH, NOR THE RIGHT OF THE STATE TO TAKE AN INDIVIDUAL'S DECISION AWAY FROM THEM.

We're not talking nanny state here, we're talking about nanny church, and apparently it is twice as bad.

[Nothing Without Hope]

45. OUTRAGEOUS!!! This needs to be widely publicized. This is supposed

to be a organization to promote love and compassion? They reveal themselves for what they have become in this decision as in all too many others.

By extension, not only paraplegic people, but also women past menopause or people with gonads removed by cancer surgery or injured in war or an accident could not marry. Unless they lied about it and the officiating priest pretended to believe they were fertile.

Horrible, simply horrible.

[outrage]

49. I'm sorry if I offend any Catholics, but that's just ass-backward

this Church has no credibility with me. Are they still molesting children and letting clergy get away with it? In-freaking-credible.

[V Lee]

52. Does it strike anyone else as odd ...

... that they focus so much on sex and so little on LOVE?

That's what I'd expect from a testosterone-infused frat boy, not a major world religion.

If Americans were asked what they believe the primary foundation of marriage is, sex or love, would the majority actually say sex? I doubt it.


>> What's on Bill's mind? Political commentary with attitude and more at http://www.BillsBrain.com

[rainbow4321]

55. I finally watched the documentary...Church is blaming media

To see the couple, their families, and their community makes it even more heartbreaking.

They ended up getting married in the "Brazil Church" in the end. Well wishers donated a beautiful bridal gown, a make over for the bride, and some other wedding items.

The Bishop who made the decision refused to be interviewed for the documentary but they had some other local Catholic officials on camera. They did more harm than good to the Church, IMO, by what they said. The Church guy first explained that the Brazil Church was made up of "dissident priests" so the local Catholic Church was not too happy with the couple.

Then he went on to say that the media made the couple's situation into more than it really was (paraphrased)..and that other churches were trying to help the couple just to make themselves look good, that they were taking advantage of the situation just to push their own agenda, basically. There was a part of the show that said a few other denominations/churchs offered to let the couple marry..one was Presbyterian, I forget the others. I know the Orthodox Church also wanted to help the couple.

I felt really bad for the couple when the bride to be said in the beginning she didn't understand why the Church had a problem with them marrying: "He knows I have no schooling, I know he is in a wheelchair, we still love each other". They fell in love only after he was rejected by several "girlfriends" who could not accept his handicap. The bride to be fell for him after being his caretaker--her previous spouse died, she took the caretaker job so she could raise her two small kids.

It was a very touching show. I hope they replay it thru out the month
and advertise it more so more people can watch it.

[PATRICK]

54. How to be the Pharisees

St. Isidore. When petty bureaucrats and perfumed hypocrites somehow wind up in charge of what they think is absolute sometimes, over a long period of history, fatal inconsistencies arise- some of them outrageously already mentioned above.

A Spanish couple, probably the first(maybe ONLY) married couple to be canonized AS a married couple without martyrdom(Side LOL for those who are married) these two were canonized as exemplars of virtue. We won't even get into Joseph forced into a chaste marriage by angels and Mary... Does the exception prove the rule when the Exception makes the rule? Or did God make the rule for a sacrament that came late in Church history? Resurgent Pharisaism that Paul condemned?

What they did was NEVER have children, abstain from sex and practiced extremely focused devotions their whole life with the rigor that some diabetics watch their sugar level.

So using that odd and unique precedent they could have asked for a spiritual marriage, never intending to have kids. The other argument is that they INTEND to have children and who knows? Maybe some medical lab funded by the Vatican will find a cure(a moral one even). Meanwhile one doesn't want the sexual abilities to dessicate. Since not every sex act and individual cell can reproduce, intention is everything AND sex itself even by the converted playboy St. Augustine(5th Century) has its own symbolic and sacramental value. In essence, don't get involved in the theological Kama Sutra of Church sexual doctrine. The laity operate without a safety net and can have their lives, minds and feelings turned into a pretzel simply for being too innocent and loyal.

But whatever. This is another example of an enforcer gone brain dead, bureaucracy gone mad, laws vacated of human reason, Christ mocked by his unfortunate representatives. This is another one of those
school principle" expels student for wearing anti-Bush t-shirt" stories".

There are dunderheads who make bureaucratic nightmares for people all over. They DO help expose less dramatic fallacies and horrors in the general bureaucracy and therefore unintentionally serve the purpose of truth and reform by their willful example. Unfortunately, outrage and hilarity at the moment are much more entertaining.