Strange thing happened at the grocery store...

[oldlady]

I suppose we all have our 'breaking point' moments. I've had enough of this 'kick ass' attitude floating around in the world. It just seems everything from schools, workplaces, etc. are so --- oh, I don't know militaristic, authoritarian...just plain hostile. No one asks questions any more..it's all judgement and punishment and winning through power/force. *sigh*

Anyway, I guess I got filled up with that vibe. Coming out of the grocery store today there were six store employees, mostly young folks, who had a woman bent over, face down into the trunk of the car, and her arms up behind her back. Again, these weren't cops, these were clerks and stock folks. They were all white, the woman was black, maybe 30 years old. She wasn't fighting, but was yelling at them to get their hands off her. Eventually, they pulled back some and she just stood with them with her head down, though two still held her arms. Three of the six were on cell phones-- talking to friends or co-workers it seemed like.

I caught the eye of one of the older employees and said, shaking my head: I'll never shop here again. He asked why and I said: with all these security cameras and a license plate you don't need to go the extra mile and get all vigilante. He said the woman had shoplifted and the police were coming. I said: so human dignity is worth less than three bucks to you? that's why I won't be back. I got in the car and my daughter exchanged a couple of complaining remarks about them being clerks, not cops--(she's probably just a couple years older than him) with the outspoken clerk and we drove away. As I exited the parking lot two squad cars came in with lights screaming.

I circled the lot and found they'd handcuffed her and stood her to the side, while the cops & clerks stood around chatting (nobody was writing anything down, just talking).

So, I parked, got a cart and unloaded the car. I went to the service desk and returned several hundred dollars worth of groceries. Got my money back and did my big shopping trip all over again elsewhere. I figure if they have enough employees on hand to send six to stand in the lot for half an hour, they have enough employees to reshelve my groceries.

Look, I'm not justifying the woman trying to take whatever she had walked out with-- I'm just sick of all this hostility. (I was calm and matter of fact about returning the groceries-- just said I didn't want to shop anywhere that trained young people that group physical force against a 5 foot tall woman was warranted in the loss of store property--

Anyone else think the whole country's got steroids in the water??

peace

[d_b]

1. You would think the store

would have security. Where they can take the suspect back to their private offices as to avoid an embarassing debacle such as the one you described.

[Hokie]

2. Thanks for taking a stand

I do not condone shop lifting but I applaud your effort to support human dignity.

[FreedomAngel82]

11. Me too

I think that was sad too. :( It was wrong she shoplifted but it's also wrong of them treating her like she was dirt. Same thing if she was a man.

[Catherine Vincent]

34. Same here.

Thanks for telling the store owner why you did what you did.:thumbsup:

[ultraist]

194. I agree! Great job taking a stand.

:applause:

[BrklynLiberal]

3. I think you are a person with principles and the courage to act on them..

Kudos. :applause:

[alittlelark]

4. That was sooo beautifully cool I have tears in my eyes!!!

You are one cool MAMA!!!

[ewagner]

5. I admire your courage

of conviction......

It seems like this attitude of "I do this because I CAN" has got to go......

[babylonsister]

6. oldlady, I love you! Thank you for letting

your sense of justice speak! And I'm sure your returning your groceries resonated with the managers.
I agree, the young lady was wrong, but from what I know, this country hasn't been taken over by vigilantes yet. On second thought...:banghead:

[LdyGuique]

7. I have to admit that I'm a patsy and probably wouldn't

have taken such forthright action as you did -- but it may be talked about a whole lot more than a simple verbal complaint.

I think a whole lot of people are running hot under the collar for a variety of reasons. Most of us are living with a constant companion: low-grade anger. We walk with it, talk with it, and sleep with it. It infects our dreams and our conversations.

I had to take a few days off from here because of the constant anger. It takes too much out of me.

[cap]

8. at the grocery store...

how much can you really steal at the grocery store? They have security and the security guards are the ones with at least minimum training. The store is right to have a guard come out and detain the woman, but not clerks and not five of them.

But I agree with you on this authoritarian, kick ass atmosphere... I am glad you said something... I thought it was just me feeling a bit neurotic. Vigilantism is coming...and you just saw the first sign.

[Protagoras]

54. Why not chase down Ken Lay in a similar fashion?

I'm sure he's stolen a few billion more than that woman ever could. Oh yeah...cuz if you steal a loaf of bread you get 5 years, if you steal a Billion dollars you get to live in Aspen.

[Rabrrrrrr]

103. How much can you steal? Cartloads, my friend. Cartloads.

I worked in a grocery store. We'd have people get away, though most times get caught, with entire CARTS of stolen food.

People will shove hundreds of dollars worth of meats into their shirts and parkas.

We had cigarettes stolen fucking constantly! One of our cashiers was really good at catching those criminal fucks.

Then there's the bad check assholes, and the fraudulent food stamp criminals.

Lots and lots and lots of theft at the grocery store.

Not to mention the equally criminal and illegal theft of letting your kid (or your piggish self) stuff him/yourself with all the fruits and veggies and other things that have to weighed that you feel like eating, and treat the produce and other weighed foods sections as your own goddamn free buffet.

I fully understand why they did what they did. Not every store has security guards - we didn't. That grocery store still doesn't. We had US. We, the clerks: we were the ones who had to chase down and get the criminal assholes ourselves. And getting a license plate number of fucking useless. You either catch the criminal in the act, with the merchandise, so you can prove they stole it, or they are forever free.

[Solly Mack]

9. Thank you for your actions & for being outraged at the abusive treatment

by the wanna-be Power Rangers. If thanking you sounds strange, just remember that so many people would not have blinked an eye. In this day and age of torture being defined as a frat prank, anyone sticking up for those being abused needs our support and our appreciation.

The lady *might* have stolen something but she didn't deserve that sort of treatment.

[lyonn]

20. They were judge and jury in the parking lot

and dispensing punishment. Our poster above probably made a statement by her actions that hopefully will cause the store to take a good look at their tactics.

[Swamp Rat]

10. I love you

:hug:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vinessa4freedom]

12. Thank you so much!!!

I worked in retail for quite a long time and we used to have a security manager that was quite the vigilante type. He'd follow people around, peering around corners, the whole, ridiculous nine yards. He tried to accuse innocent employees of things, just to be "big-brotherish." We hated him, and felt like he degraded employees and customers alike. He caught many shoplifters with his methods, some had done felony theft (over $1000), but his overzealousness got creepy.

He's now serving a life term in prison for murder. (his ex-girlfriend, not a shoplifter). You were so right oldlady! You got it exactly right. Do not apologize for what you did, I think you're awesome.

[dweller]

13. My hat is off to you dear oldlady

for standing up to the thugs, for practicing your principles, and walking that peaceful way.


godsbless.
dp

[Richard D]

14. Excellent

Simply excellent. Thank you for being human.

[wovenpaint]

15. Good for you!

Not to condone the shoplifting- but the public humiliation is certainly
uncalled for until facts are known. I hope you gave people something to think about!

[concord]

16. Thank you for spending an enormous amount of energy

standing up for the rights of someone else, a stranger no less. I am moved by what you did. It was definitely "out of the box" thinking and inspirational to me. I will keep it in mind during my own travels through this jungle.

A hug for you :hug:

[HeeBGBz]

17. Rock on and good for you

Facist punks.

[bpilgrim]

18. it's freak'n SCAREY... putt'n 5yo's in CHAINS, tasering old or PREGNANT w

i am afraid for my children and i'm a tall white guy fer christ sakes and have these fantasies of leaving the country - often while reading DU - but it's definitely in the air, water, food and propaganda ->FEAR&VIOLENCE we are saturated and completely immersed in it.

but still no one is signing up for iraq, so i still think there is hope ;->

thanks for sharing and putting your money where your heart is :toast:

peace

[dweller]

22. absolutely in the propaganda

esp. tv commercials.

I started years ago pointing out to my 2 daughters the implied, insinuated, subliminal violence towards females, or just violence towards everything projected in product commercials. They ignored me, then were pissed at me for mentioning it, then finally started looking at commercials critically and started seeing what i was seeing. They were amazed and then eventually pissed. It opened their eyes to what they, we are being drenched in on a constant basis. Can you say 'videodrome' ?

no wonder we are at war (ie, invading innocent nations without provocation).

peace.
dp

[cap]

24. you are right...

there is an undercurrent of mean behavior in commercials...

[dweller]

33. it's downright pathological

if it bleeds, it leads.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north203.html


dp

[1monster]

89. I rarely watch the tube anymore, but I remember how shocked I was at

the Twix commercial the first time I saw it: "Two for me and none for you!"

What a message for parents who were trying to teach their kids manners, sharing and caring. :grr:

[bpilgrim]

29. we always hit mute when watching teeVee and the CMs come on, gross...

but my kids know that it is all CRAZY and we have fun mocking them, even when they were little it's a family thing we all love doin it... but it truly is sad & scary.

had to make sure they got that early on too make sure they didn't get sucked in and to know dad ain't some crazy liberal :evilgrin:

i am very worried about my girls going out in tomorrows world we are ruining today :cry:

:hi:

peace

[Lorien]

81. It's the natural response to BushCo rhetoric

Act now, find a justification for it later. We even have a new "shoot now, ask questions later" law here in Florida; you just know that hundreds-if not thousands-of bed wetting bullies will now be using guns when a bout of road rage hits them. The repugs see it as "acting tough"; I see it as acting like a tantrum throwing preschooler with no self control and an inactive intellect.

[two gun sid]

19. That is beautiful....

I think I'm in love with you.

[kcwayne]

21. But you know, I would love it if I saw this happening to Ken Lay.

[dweller]

23. just imagine

the thousands of employees, stockholders, pensioneers, retirees, and victims of his (and *moronbuddy) scam surrounding him in a parking lot.

my, my.

dp

[Sugarbleus]

25. LOL--->"Steroids in the water".. Seems like it, doesn't it..?

Well, GOOD ON YA for taking a stand. :thumbsup:

For the most part, I've been a calm, quiet person. I can erupt with anger if I judge something to be unjust; usually I like to just go along and mind my own business and not engage in things that are irritating.

Lately though, as you say, people have become "edgy". I live in a mostly peace-loving University town by the sea. Not too much hostility. After the last election though, people were honking horns in the roadway, faces looking more tense, courteousness has curbed itself....just a tense feeling in the air. Not everyday, but it's here when it was absent before.

It also depends on which side of town I shop. Down the highway in a smaller town the xtian extremists are out in force. I was the one who blew up at a right wing petitioner outside a dept store. He didn't seem fazed at all. :shrug:

I find that some towns are mellow while some are fit to be tied and armed to the teeth with hostility.

[eternalburn]

26. Something sorta strange....

.... but maybe times haved changed more than I realized.

In 1994 I did a brief stint as a security guard. In the training we were specifically instructed not to put our hands on someone for any reason. We were there to gather information that could then be relayed or given to the police,...period. Description, plate numbers, whatever, no grabbing, restraining or physical contact.

This was spelled out very clearly time and time again.

[LiberalFighter]

138. There must be a reason for that...

in this case the employees handcuffed the shoplifter. I believe that would be considered an arrest and only duly authorized law officers are legally allowed.

If that store or other stores have a problem with shoplifters then they should have properly trained personnel on site that can handle the situation appropriately.

They could had easily have a digital camera to take pictures of the vehicle, license plate and the individual as well as demanding her drivers license or other form of id. In the process contacting the police.

[LostinVA]

264. If the person was handcuffed by ANYONE but law enforcement

Or someone recognized in that state as law enforcement (certain type of loss prevention people), then that would sooooooo be illegal. Even someone making a citizen's arrest can't do that.

[LiberalFighter]

266. That is what I understood and would think the stores would know that too.

[yella_dawg]

27. Question?

Besides being brutal and thugish, weren't the actions of the employees assault? As in felony?

[mourningdove92]

28. Wow, you took all your groceries back? I am really

impressed. Thanks for setting such a great example.

[ObaMania]

40. I'd be even more impressed if there were ice cream in the groceries! n/t

[LisaL]

127. I got news for you.

The store clerks are probably only be happy if you never show up there again. Less job for them. They are not making any profits from the things they sell, so, the less people show up, the less work they have to do.
:eyes:

[NinetySix]

30. Mentally comparing your courage to that of the clerks...computing...

You win!

There were probably some other people standing nearby thinking, "well, you have some nerve." I'd say that's a pretty accurate assessment! Right on!

[jobycom]

31. Not surprising she was black

I worked retail for a while, and was an assistant manager in a training store, so I trained managers and salespeople. We used to get frequent talks about how, though it was sad, statistically black people shoplifted more than white people, and so it was wise to watch black people more closely.

So I did my own little study. Instead of watching black people, I watched white people. In about eight months, I witnessed eight shopliftings. Four of them were by black shoplifters-- I didn't catch them, someone else did. Four of them were white. One was a well-dressed woman who had bought $600 item and tried to steal a $200 item in the same bag. One was a plain looking guy who tried to steal a wallet, but saw me telling someone, and put it back, making sure I saw. Similar stories on the other two.

All four black shoplifters were caught, arrested, and sent to jail-- though I don't know if they went to trial. In every case, though I caught them red-handed, I could not convince the store manager to call security on a single one of the white shoplifters. She threatened on one case to fire me if I even confronted the woman, even though I got her to ditch the item in plain view of the manager.

So it doesn't surprise me that they caught a black woman shoplifting, nor that they handled her that way, nor that crime statistics are as they are.

Great job, oldlady! You are too cool!

[SeattleGirl]

41. Not surprised either...

I also worked in retail, and know that security guards, unless they are licensed to be armed, are generally instructed to keep their hands off people, and certainly as a sales associate, it was not part of my job to play Rambo. I think this woman should look into suing them. And yes, if she DID steal something, then she should take her punishment, but stealing something does not give these folks the right to manhandle her.

As far as her being black, well, I am absolutely NOT surprised. I live in a very economically and racially mixed area. There are two large grocery stores close to where I live. I usually shop just at one of them, but one day I went to the other one. It was after work, and probably the majority of folks in there were dressed in their office attire, stopping to pick up stuff for dinner on their way home. I needed cigarettes, and had to go to the Customer Service Desk (i.e. the "Wait forever for what you need Desk") to get them. I had a hand cart with a few items in it, and was not done shopping. Well they wanted me to pay for them right there. I said I had a few more items to pick up, so I would just pay for them at the register. They said they would walk them over to the register when I was ready to check out. What am I, five????

Now, I know that things like cigarettes are one of the most frequently stolen items, but come on, "walk them over to the casher"???? I asked for the manager, and he was not there so they sent the assistant manager. I told him I did understand the "steal appeal" of cigarettes, but found it insulting that their idea of customer service was to treat their customers with distrust. Then, I said, "Look, I have a lot of small items in my basket, and any one of them will fit into my jacket pockets." And I started putting things in my pockets. "Some of these things cost more than cigarettes, so why don't you have everyone shopping here just hand the clerks a list and the clerks can go pick everything out?" He was not amused (I was addressing him in a calm manner, but I was pissed.) Then I said, "I think the main reason you are set up this way is because there is a large African American population in this neighborhood. I can go in to one of your other locations, where the main population is white, and the customers don't get treated this way." The assistant manager just looked at me like I was from another planet, and said there was nothing he could do about it. So I said, "Fine. Here are the items I was going to purchase. I think I'll go to the store on the next block. At least there, I get treated with respect, and not like a felon."

I rarely ever go to that store anymore, unless there is an item I need that the other store does not carry.

[LiberalFighter]

139. Which state?

[jobycom]

173. Texas, but here's the kicker

My manager was from Wisconsin, and most of the other employees were from out of state. This was in Dallas, where there are few actual Dallas natives. Our supervisors were all either from the north or the midwest.

In fact, two people understood the problem: one was me, from Mississippi, and the other was from Texas.

[LostinVA]

218. I'm with you on this one

I managed bookstores in NC and VA, and I will say that alot of "typical" shoplifters I saw doing something were African American (sliding a book, video, etc. into a bad. HOWEVER, the scammers were almost 100% white: taking a $100 Bible off of the shelf and taking it up front to "return" it for cash; trying to write a $300 check on starter checks on the weekend (we didn't have the check verifier system), etc. And, most of the scammers were very well dressed and "respectable" looking. And, we had alot of bad checks passed. Some were from the usual suspects: college kids, general deadbeats.... but many of them were from local professionals: doctors, lawyers, actors. VERY interesting...

[jobycom]

253. The white shoplifters used different tactics, from what I saw

Since black customers no matter how well dressed were watched like hawks, they tended to try to get alone, and this always made them look suspicious. Though of course there were the professionals, where one would run interference by acting suspicious or by engaging the staff, while the other would lift something. But those were the ones after high dollar items.

The white shoplifters I caught always did the same thing. They talked to the crew, usually bought something, and stuck the lifted item in their bag, or in the item they bought. (We sold luggage and small leather stuff). The items were always very expensive. Two of them tried to steal the same $300 wallet. Three of them almost made it, but the door alarms caught them, and I saw them ditching the item. THe fourth guy had been talking to another manager, who saw him lift a wallet. The other guy told me about it, and the shoplifter saw us talking, reached in his pocket, held the wallet up so we could see it, put it on the counter, and walked past us to leave. "I put it back," he said, then took off. After that, the other guy believed me about who was stealing the most.

You know all those times the door alarms go off at stores and the crew just waves you through? I'm convinced that's where most of the slippage gets out, except what's stolen by the employees. It's stolen by the people who look least suspicious, so they are never questioned.

I was thinking when I read the OP that anyone who wanted to shoplift at that store had the perfect chance while half the employees were harrassing someone in the parking lot.

[ariesgem]

228. I worked graveyard at a 24hr Wal Mart living in Roswell, GA

It was the Manager's unwritten policy to have his white sales associates follow around black customers. He NEVER approched us (AA Sales Associates) with this policy because he knew we would raise hell. Those sales associates (he designated them "night security")walked around with these loud walkie-talkies to communicate with each other as they were watching the black customers.

One time the girl in electronics said on her walkie-talkie that "two suspicious black women were approaching her area". There was nothing "suspicious" about the women. They were well-dressed lovely women in their 50's who were shopping. There was a sales associate near the women with his walkie-talkie blaring and the women heard what the girl said. The women proceeded to go to the customer service dept and gave the Manager a verbal ass-kicking. On another occasion, these associates were all focused on a black shopper while 2 white boys proceeded to run out the store with a microwave.

White shoplifters love it when there are black customers in the store because they know all of the store's security resources will be focused on them.

[jobycom]

249. That's exactly what I used to try to explain to management

All you have to do is have a mixed race team go in at different times. Have the black guy walk around and act suspicious, and the white guy can take anything he wants.

The amount of slippage in a store always far exceeds the amount of merchandise recovered from caught shoplifters. Which to me proves that the people who are stealing are the people who aren't being watched.

[oblivious]

32. Well done! 'Steroids in the water' or something worse.

Those are crazy people.

[Tansy_Gold]

35. I work in a major chain grocery store

Clerks, cashiers, and stockers are NEVER permitted to confront shoplifters. NEVER.

A few days ago, a woman attempted to steal approx $500 worth of liquor. She bought a large plastic trash can and after paying for it walked back into the store. Over approximately two hours, she stashed bottles of liquor in the trash can. She carefully selected bottles that did not have security caps. When the can was full, she attempted to march out the front door.

She was stopped and apprehended by store management. Most clerks and cashiers didn't even know anything was going on until the police arrived.


Two weeks ago, in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, we had a gentleman attempt to steal several boxes of cold remedy. The easy assumption is that he was going to use it for production of meth. Four floor clerks saw him slip the boxes into his pockets. They alerted management, who then apprehended the man as he walked out of the store. The police had already been notified, and when the man turned violent, the police stepped in.


There is enormous financial risk for a grocery store to allow its non-management employees to attempt to confront and control a suspected shoplifter. Either this was not a chain store or the employees were acting outside the rules.

[NJmaverick]

79. Yeah this is REALITY

Not the wishful thinking that she was stealing a quart of milk for her baby or she was JUST sneaking out a pack of gum.

[foreigncorrespondent]

37. Ya know...

...if they had done that here in Australia, she could have them charged, and I'm not kidding.

We have use of force laws here, which many people don't know about, but security guards are trained in. When a security guard makes an arrest at a supermarket, or shopping mall, they are not allowed to touch the person they are arresting. If the person becomes violent towards the guard, then the guard is only allowed to use reasonable force to defend himself. If it is a female guard, then that guard is allowed to use a bit more force behind her actions if the perpertrator is a male, otherwise it is use of reasonable force again.

I love what you did. When I read stories of how bad things truly are over there, my mouth honestly drops. It does't drop because I never realized how bad it was, because I really do, but it drops when I hear of people making citizens arrests like your above mentioned, and just how lax the U.S. citizens arrest laws truly are. By the way, when a security guard makes an arrest, it is also a citizens arrest, because they are not cops.

And yes, I realize these people just shop workers and not security guards. But I work in the security industry so I was relating what I actually know about laws here.

[stevedeshazer]

38. It's getting much worse here in the US

Racism and police violence are way up.

[foreigncorrespondent]

182. Yeah!

It really is shocking.

[LostinVA]

221. She could have charged them in many US states, too

I mentioned upthread I managed bookstores in NC and VA, and we were legally not allowed to restrain people, nor stop them from leaving in anyway. We could be charged with assault, and something else that I can't remember: unlawful im imprisonment or something weird like that.

[foreigncorrespondent]

246. Seems we have the same set of rules!

We can also be charged with holding someone against their will, even if they have been caught wth their hands in the cookie jar. And that makes me nervous as all hell when I work with this one guy, who is hell bent on making arrests. This guy thinks he knows it all, but I can see him being charged one day for something.

I am glad to know we have similar rules. :)

[LostinVA]

252. It was either holding someone against their will or

Second degree kidnapping.... a worse charge than for shoplifting, too! And, if somehow an adult magazine got into a minor's hand, the Manger on Duty (me!!!!) would be arrested on a sexual offense against a minor felony charge. God. I made sure they were all under the counter (it was only Playboy and Playgirl).

So, I feel your pain!

[Unforgiven]

39. That's Odd

that's the same conversation I had with my wife last night about something in the water supply, only concerning our short term memory and inability to concentrate.
On second take I think it was my wife, can't remember? Tall redhead anyway!

[Straight Shooter]

42. Two squad cars with lights screaming.

What's up with that, they need to deplete community resources by sending two squad cars. Did the shoplifter have an Uzi in her mouth or something and was threatening to blow everyone away?

Good for you, "oldlady." I hope you live forever. :thumbsup:

[thecai]

43. Way To Go, Oldlady!

You ROCK!
I give Bush the credit for dividing this country and spreading hatred and hostility throughout America, and planet Earth.

[Stew225]

44. Way to handle it!

I agree with you. I think that people are so bored and frustrated with life that they seize any moment that enables them to be part of a soap opera.

[IdaBriggs]

45. A friend of mine had THREE GUNS pointed at him as he was

escorted from his own home in front of his wife and neighbors. Why? Because his father was accused of stealing a $5 package of sausage, and the car his father was driving was registered in my friend's name (so they came to arrest my friend instead of his father, apparently missing the whole "late 60's" portion of the physical description of the alleged perpetrator).

To fully appreciate the stupidity of this entire episode, my friend is an ex-police officer (retired after being shot), who works a white collar job for a telecom company while still doing some part time work as a private investigator / bonded process server. Apparently the fact he owns several registered guns and occasionally does instruction at the local firing range was what triggered the "three car" arrest fest.

The knock on the door came, my friend answered and was asked to step out of his apartment. He politely did so, and the next thing he knew, he had three guns pointed at him, followed up by being handcuffed, and walked from the building. He still didn't know what was going on, so he hollered for his wife (a vet assistant) to contact their lawyer, at which point one of the cops made a smart ass comment about how now they KNEW he was guilty because only guilty people called for lawyers. My friend kept his cool, engaged in a dialog ("What's going on, guys?"), found out that his father's car was involved, and ended up taking them over to his father's home where a much calmer no guns / no handcuffs situation ensued. I haven't heard the end of the story, but lawyers are involved at this point, even though my friend says he thinks the cops were just bored, and pulling a bit of a practical joke. (Some of the local officers had been instructed by my friend at the firing range....)

Three guns at your head AND a set of handcuffs over a $5 package of PORK SAUSAGE that his kosher 60+ father was accused of stealing. Yup, its a little scary sometimes....

[seventythree]

101. The cops need to be sued

in this case, but there will be plenty on these boards who will start yelling about our sue happy society, and those no good lawyers after I write this -- have seen it before.

[IdaBriggs]

268. Actually, he ended up taking them donuts.

Seriously. Apparently (according to him) this is a "humor slam" in Cop-Speak. His impression was that they were bored, and since they knew some of the guys he taught to shoot, they thought it would be funny.

Ha ha. :eyes:

[ananda]

46. good for you

Well done!

[marions ghost]

47. Agree that this is part of a larger picture...

I have noticed an increase in judgmental attitudes too and am not surprised that this would lead to a group taking vigilante action against a grocery store shoplifter.

The reasons for this increase are complex. Even more mystefying --I have even seen this attitude manifesting in some who profess to be liberals (though it is more often a product of narrow-minded "us vs them" mentality).

Why do more people feel the need to be so righteous and harsh over petty theft while Bushco's hijacking of the country is ignored?

[lonestarnot]

48. Yeah and they're in to this note leaving thing too...not enough balls to

say what they have to say to your face...got one on my car yesterday. LOL pitched it instead of ebay auction like Goodboy! Bunch of gutless wonders they are. Maybe the woman needed bread and milk.

[knitter4democracy]

49. I think you have a point.

I think we all can only handle so much, and all the fear and anger and pain have to go somewhere. I had a horrible thing happen to me on Thursday, and I've been yelling at my kids for every little thing since. I'm really trying not to, but I can only handle so much. Hubby's been on-call since then, so he's not home to help.

Side note: did anyone else start thinking of Les Miserables? What was she accused of stealing? Food? How come they went after her like that and don't seem to care about big corporations stealing more?

[NJmaverick]

50. Sorry but I think you were wrong

First off the women STOLE, she was a criminal. I have no sympathy when people decide to commit a crime. In fact part of the reason liberals have suffered in popularity is our unwillingness to be firm in the face of criminal actions.

I applaud the store people for acting like good citizens and detaining this women. If more people took an active role, in stopping crime and not just leaving it to the police, our country would be a better place.

Sorry I applaud your initiative, but I am far more impressed with the store clerks that did something positive for society by apprehending a criminal then you did wrongly judging them.

I am all in favor of creating conditions that help people and help young people avoid a life of crime. I am not in favor of lenient treatment for those that decide to profit at the expense of others, like this shop lifter did. Here profit raises the price of your groceries and hurts the salaries of those clerks. With plenty of criminal activity out there, those shop lifters and their costs add up.

[knitter4democracy]

51. Oh come on!!!

Shoplifting is part of retail. It just is. The question is, was it worth losing six clerks off the floor (to help prevent more shoplifting while this was all going on) to slam some poor woman against a car and physically restrain her until two cop cars show up with lights flashing? Absolutely not.

Criminals are not evil. They are not beasts. They are humans who made bad decisions. Yes, some go beyond that into sickness and perversion, but I seriously doubt that accused shoplifter had crossed that line. Remember: in our legal system, we are innocent until proven guilty. Slamming her around for a pack of cigarettes or whatever isn't treating her as an innocent or with any respect for a fellow human being.

How is asking her to stay in a nice, reasonable tone lenient? How is keeping her in a back room, away from prying eyes, until the cops get there lenient treatment? Those guys did it for the fun of it--smashing down a perp and getting to be the good guys for once. They didn't do anything positive for society--at least, you wouldn't think so if they'd done that to you on some suspicion of theft or to someone you love.

[seventythree]

57. so typical - "slamming"

the perp around -- I didn't read that in the OP, and I just got done reading it. While I applaud anyone with the courage of their convictions, the OP in this case, I don't necessarily agree that the clerks actions were wrong -- BECAUSE we don't have enough information!!!! (We seldom do here on DU, but we sure like to go off half-cocked, anyway.)

We don't know why there were 6 clerks apprehending this woman -- did they try to question her in the store and she ran? Did they question her outside the store, and she got in her car and turned the ignition? We do not know from the original post. I agree, escorting her to a back room and waiting for the police was the way to do it, but, we don't know all the circumstances here.

[NJmaverick]

73. Ever had to restrain someone?

I have had to restrain emotionally disturbed people during my work as an Emergency Medical Technician. I have news for you there is no pretty looking way to restrain people who don't want to be restrained. They are combative and it takes all you can do to keep them under control. Even a smaller weaker person can easily injury people trying to restrain someone. They kick, bite, scratch, punch, slap and spit. The people attempting to restrain can only respond by attempting to over power the person.

[Bluerthanblue]

86. your response

to the EMT situation was very appropriate- and clearly necessiary- it was your JOB to restrain the person who was resisting, and hopefully your training has given you appropriate ways to 'deal' with this situation - i agree 'size' isn't an issue when people are 'out of control'- (i also know that from experience)-
HOWEVER- those 'shopkeepers' were NOT 'trained' professionals- and could have severly injured or killed the woman OR themselves in an attempt to ... what?... catch a shoplifter? or a SUSPECTED- (hate to point that out, but despite the lies of *W* this is STILL a nation where the 'rule of law' says' 'innocent until PROVEN guilty'-)

The clerks were out of line- no matter what- the use of bodily force in the face of grocery store theft is ludicrous- and a symptom of how we as a society have come to value 'things' over a persons LIFE-

i know you've likely seen some pretty daunting stuff as an EMT- but this isn't a comparitive issue- sorry, it just isn't.

[NJmaverick]

95. BTB

So if you shop lift get caught, the best thing to do is become violent???? That way based on your reasonning they can get away scott free. Just don't stop when they nicely ask you to stay here until the cops come to arrest you.

[DavidFL]

211. Exactly...

what if this woman, or any shoplifter at this supermarket for that matter, had a gun, or knife, or some other weapon on them and used it in the course of an escape? As the original poster notes, these were teens/young adults, and I'm assuming they're probably working there part time and do not have health insurance coverage either. Will the supermarket cover their hospital bills should one of them sustain injuries while attempting to restrain a shoplifter, or would that be left to the clerks individually? What if one of the clerks was killed?

Further, what if the clerks were mistaken about this woman having stole something, but went ahead and did what they did anyway and the whole thing played out as in the original post? Will the supermarket cover their share of liability if this woman sued the store and the clerks individually for battery, unlawful imprisonment, etc.? This would, of course, depend on what the terms of clerks' employment contract state, if they have one. But more than that, their actions exposed the supermarket to potential legal liability. Even under the exact circumstances described in the original post, if the clerks had injured this woman in the course of their citizens arrest, in some states, she could sue the clerks and the supermarket itself for the injuries she sustained, despite the fact she was shoplifting.

[TX-RAT]

240. but we sure like to go off half-cocked, anyway.)

Yep, every damn time.
There are several members of DU who are or were in Law Enforcement.
Most of us don't even respond to this type rhetoric, it's pointless.

[Bluerthanblue]

60. yeah,

and if she looked like Paris Hilton do you think they would have treated her like that?

Shoplifting occurs so often- and is rarely treated in such a public, aggressive, and de-humanizing way-

but then, in Florida, you can now shoot someone because you are afraid of them- and get off-

GW's wild west mentality is infecting the entire world- i'm proud of the way the OP chose to deal with this-

There IS such a thing as common decency- AND proper procedure- what would really ice this cake is if it turned out the woman had indeed not 'shoplifed' anything- i have a friend whose daughter was accused, and detained (a beautiful blond, treated with respect, but unfaily accused none the less) who had done NOTHING - and was released by the police, and the store, which i will never shop at again- because they 'profile' -

We talk about being a country where people are treated with tolerance, respect, and justice- that's what it has turned into- alot of words-
It takes folks like this poster to ACT on what is right, even at considerable effort and the risk of being harrassed for her stand for what is RIGHT-

[NJmaverick]

74. Seems to me in your desire to fix blame to the wrong people

<<and if she looked like Paris Hilton do you think they would have treated her like that?

Shoplifting occurs so often- and is rarely treated in such a public, aggressive, and de-humanizing way->>


I have news for you, how people are treated when caught depends almost entirely on the actions of the criminal. They can peacefully accept that they are caught or like this women they can fight and attempt escape. It is not the color of the skin or how they look. It is how they behave that makes all the difference. Trust me that many clerks were not pulled out of the store, because she peacefully surrendered to the person that caught her.

[Bluerthanblue]

83. seems to ME...

... that you are 'out of touch' with reality-
Were you there? Did you see this woman 'flee'- do you know any more of the 'facts' than have been posted here? i am a white woman- i have been treated with more respect at times than 'i' deserved- given the same circumstances- (never shoplifted, but HAVE been stopped for speeding, and gotten 'off', i'm willing to 'bet' because of my looks)
i'm also the mother of a black son- and have watched the SCRUTINY that he is placed under simply because of his color- sex, and age-

My other son, who is white used to HATE going shopping when he was with me, because if he looked at something, clerks were always breathing down his neck- EXPECTING him to 'steal'-

Ever heard of driving while black? it happens OFTEN in this lilly white rural community where i live- just like it does in the city- The reality of how people SHOULD be treated, is often (in my own personal experience) far from the way they are ACTUALLY treated.

If this woman was fighting to escape, why the hell was she having her head held down in a car trunk????? read post 35- as has been suggested- These clerks acted out of bounds-

[NJmaverick]

85. Reality is something I dealt with far more then you

Worked in an inner city hospital. Been on a FA squad for 20 years. Got to interact with criminals all to regularly. Got to know many cops and get a chance to hear their side of the story. Have been the victim of crime and will tell you if I ever caught one of the criminals they would wish I would just push them down on the hood of a car. I have no use for criminals period. I will do all I can to help people avoid crime, but once you decide crime is what you want to do then you need to be punished to the point of deterence.

<<<If this woman was fighting to escape, why the hell was she having her head held down in a car trunk?????>>>>

Again I will ask all you "in-touch reality" people. Ever had to restrain someone???? I have and that position they put her in left her with no leverage and no way to hurt her restrainers.

[Bluerthanblue]

90. don't 'assume' anything

about anyone else Nomad- you have no 'clue' what i've experienced in my life, nor what i've had to 'do' to others in order to 'STAY ALIVE'-

i'm not going to go into my life history here- nor relive things that i want to leave far behind me, but YES i DO know what it means to fight for your life- and to suffer great physical harm at the hands of others-

and there is no 'thing' that is worth a persons life- no car, no house, no possesion- nothing.

i'm sorry you've seen and experienced what you have- perhaps you need to really consider taking a break from your profession- burnout and bitterness and a lack of perspective are not unusual, or un-expected in professions such as you speak of-
we are all human- and we all have our 'breaking points'- the way OLDLADY chose to 'deal' with hers, was one of 'respect' self-control, and a good 'object lesson' for many- myself included.

[NJmaverick]

91. Did it ever occur to you

That your black son would have an easier time of it, if other blacks like this woman didn't commit crimes???? Yes it is wrong for people to judge a race by the crimes committed by a few, but it happens. So not only did this women hurt the store, it's shoppers and it's employee's she also hurt your son.

As for fighting for your life, do not assume that gives you experience of trying to restrain someone. In fighting for you life you are free to inflict what ever harm you can. When you are restraining someone you are fighting someone who can inflict whatever harm they can, while you are bound to use only physical restraint to try and immoblize this dangerous person. Yes criminals are dangerous people.

[Bluerthanblue]

98. you are doing exactly that once again-

assuming that my personal experiences are something you understand-

i know what an emotionally ill person can do when they are totally 'out of control'- and i wouldn't have believed the power that they were able to muster up, but.....

this is more than i want to get into- you and i are taking this thread WAY off track- these were employees of a grocery store- dealing with a SUSPECTED 'shoplifter'-

Don't confuse your issues and history with the reality of this account-

[Bluerthanblue]

100. AND.....

... i forgive you for your 'illusions' concerning my son, and this woman contrubuting to the predjuce he is exposed to-

Using your way of thinking, all men should be distrusted, and ashamed for what they have done to me in my life, and to women (and children) in general-
BAH-----!!!!!!! Judge a person NOT by anything but thier own individual specific actions and words, NOT by thier sex, color, age, ethnic background, looks, religion, occupation, poverty, wealth- or ANY other thing-

to do otherwise is to be a bigot-

[Telly Savalas]

175. Racial profiling is the fault of black people?

That's a pretty fucked up argument.

(Grammar edit.)

[ultraist]

198. Totally fucked up!

Apparently, it didn't occur to him that racial profiling wouldn't happen if there weren't ignorant racist pigs.

[LostinVA]

219. Well, gosh, of course it's their fault!

Those nasty black people, allowing other blacks to commit crimes! Just like those nasty men, allowing other men to rape women. Why, they should ALL be locked up! Along with that icky-poo Matthew Shepherd, who caused himself to be killed because of all of those flaming queers flaunting their sexuality!

[yorkiemommie1]

115. dwb

my community is mostly whites/asians and there is a definite unspoken dwb mentality here. one of the city officials even told me that.

i know of two instances where the drivers were stopped because 'they had too many races in their car' in the first case the driver was american japanese, in the second, a white american man.

i live in SoCal, in the beach area.

edited to complete last sentence.

[jobycom]

183. I can promise you from experience that just is not true

Somewhere back up the chain I related a story about my experiences in retail, and the different ways black people are treated over white people. I didn't give enough detail, apparently. The same manager that threatened to fire me if I called security on a white woman we both saw shoplifting CHASED DOWN a black shoplifter not three weeks later. She ran out of the store and caught this woman in the parking lot, pushing her against a car to capture her. I repeat, this is the same woman who let a white shoplifter, who lifted an item almost three times the value of the one shoplifted by the black woman, go scott free.

That's one story, but I saw it over and over. Yes, race has a lot to do with the way a criminal is treated, not just be individuals, but by cops. One of my other jobs was night audit at a luxury hotel, and I got to work overnight with a lot of cops, who rotated night security for the place. Racism is just assumed, even by cops. They'll flat out tell you, once they know you, that black people commit more crimes, so therefore they watch them more closely. I've hard well-decorated cops describe shaking down a black teenager for jaywalking, because the kid had looked at him funny two streets back. I've heard the same cop describe letting a white college student go free after the student took a swing at him. This is a well respected, well liked, and since then, highly placed officer in the police force. His behavior was just standard, and the only cops I knew of that disagreed were a few of the Hispanic cops. Interestingly, no black cops were hired to work security by this hotel, so I don't know their opinions.

I firmly believe--and this belief comes from being friends with a few dozen cops as well as ten years experience in retail and hotels, that how a shoplifting suspect is treated depends NOT ONE BIT on his actions, and depends ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY on his or her race, from the moment they walk into a store to the moment the jail cell slams behind them. If they are white, they can be pretty sure they will never hear a jail cell slam behind them. I don't ever recall actually seeing a white person arrested for shoplifting, in fact, though I've seen a few caught. They were, in my experiences, always let go.

[LostinVA]

220. Agreed again -- we were told by Corporate to "babysit,"

ie follow around blacks and teenagers, because they are the "usual shoplifters." specially black teenagers. Of course I saw blacks shoplift, and teenagers. As well as a well-known actress (no, I am not saying which one!), old ladies, white guys in suits, middle-aged Asian women, etc.... EVERYBODY. But, we were only told to "stalk" black people and kids....

And, I dated a cop for a year, and although I'm not saying all cops are "assumed" racists, I will say all of the cops I got to know well were. They assumes a carful of black guys were up to no good, etc....

[grace0418]

210. Are you serious?

<<" It is not the color of the skin or how they look. It is how they behave that makes all the difference. ">>

You honestly think racial profiling doesn't exist? Or that looks don't factor into reactions one gets in any given situation? Please tell me you're kidding. Aside from the fact that there is ample scientific evidence to suggest that being a tall, attractive white male means you get preferential treatment in many different situations, I can give you a few personal anecdotes:

My sister, a thin, attractive, blond white woman, dated a black man for years. Do you have any idea how many times cops stopped to ask my sister "Ma'am, is this man bothering you?" while they walked down the street? Do you honestly mean to tell me that this would've happened if she'd been walking down the street with a white man? Or what about the fact that I was treated drastically differently in a number of different situations when my head was half-shaved and my hair was purple as opposed to when I had a more "mainstream" haircut? I'm the same person, I behave the same way in most situations. I'm polite and friendly to most people I meet. So you don't think my appearance had anything to do with it?

Behavior is a factor for sure in how one gets treated during a situation with police (or grocery store clerks, apparently) but please don't try to tell me that appearance plays no part. That's just absurd.

[seventythree]

96. We are all

assuming that this was a shop lifting case because the OP, I believe, overheard a phone conversatioon, or was told that, but we don't know all the information. It would be a stretch here, I agree, but people get pulled over for speeding, and then they find there is an outstanding warrent. Without all the facts, it is difficult to make a determination of wrongful action by the clerks.

[progressivebydesign]

158. And if she looked like Paris Hilton would the poster have cared? n/t

[funflower]

200. Can't comment on the poster, but it would still have been illegal.

[LostinVA]

263. If it WAS Paris Hilton, then I would have cackled in glee

Since I really can't stand her. However, once I ascertained it was not Ms. Hilton, then yeah -- I would feel the same way. It's not the race, it's the actions. It's not defending shoplifting, it's condemning the overblown actions. Trust me, I know all about customers ripping you off.

[NJmaverick]

71. I do not accept crime

<<Shoplifting is part of retail. It just is.>>

No crime is not part of doing business. That is like saying, "hey, drug dealing is just part of inner city life."

<<Criminals are not evil. They are not beasts. >>

They are people doing bad things and hurting others. That is enough for me.

<<Slamming her around for a pack of cigarettes>>

Yeah right. I got news for you I have been following local news for decades and shop lifters don't just steal a dollar to two. We are talking around $100 give or take each and every time. I wonder how you would feel if this women broke into your home and ONLY took a few items?????

<<How is asking her to stay in a nice, reasonable tone lenient?>>

You are assuming facts not in evidence. In fact most shop lifters can not be restrained by a mere reasonable tone restraint. So you are actually painting a picture that isn't based on fact.

[knitter4democracy]

151. I've worked in retail and am opening up my own shop this fall.

I've clerked in three different yarn shops and am opening up my own this fall. Stuff happens. You watch like a hawk, and stuff still disappears. Is it maddening? Yes! You put up cameras, check things as much as possible, watch everyone as well as you can, and they still steal the $500 models you borrowed from the yarn company and now have to pay for, the $40 books you weren't going to make much money on anyway so is mostly a total loss, and stuff $80 skeins in their bags, only to be discovered later when doing inventory.

We actually knew of one, a klepto in our local knitting guild. She was banned from the store, but every time the owner hired a new clerk, there she was. We always treated her nicely and nicely and firmly escorted her from the shop, with her protesting that she couldn't possibly be a thief. Yeah, right. :eyes: We never physically restrained her and never had six people on her, waiting for the cops to come wailing up.

One of the problems that I see in your post is that you have demonized all criminals. It's easy to do--we get scared of what they'll do to us, and every magazine, newspaper, and TV "news" program is full of scary stories. Once we're scared, we tend to lash out. Our prisons aren't for reform anymore--they're to lock those people up and keep them away from everyone else. There's a real problem with that: they are part of our society and just as human as you or I.

I used to teach high school, and I taught kids with criminal records; they still got weepy when reading _To Kill a Mockingbird_ and angry at how Juliet's dad treated her. You ask how I would feel if they came into my house--angry, of course. I also would be angry if some store clerk treated my son or daughter like that just because they're kids and therefore more likely to steal.

Btw, if someone cannot be restrained by a reasonable tone and requests, I'd rather have the police deal with it. They're trained for that and will make sure everyone in the situation is safe.

[Bluerthanblue]

160. where is your shop?

i'd visit if it was near me- and i appreciate your calm, knowledgeable response. (i'm in northern New England)

[knitter4democracy]

161. I'll be in downtown Battle Creek, Michigan

DU'ers will get a discount, too. ;) It's too bad you're so far away. Hey, do you like Green Mountain Spinnery and Fingerlakes Yarns? I'm going to carry both of those (pretty excited, actually), and I haven't heard anything bad about them yet. I'm trying to carry as many American made yarns as possible.

[Carni]

171. If you feel like it PM me with the name of your shop

I am in the same state (quite a ways away however) but my daughter knits and I would certainly welcome buying product from someone I know isn't a wing nut!

I might be able to get out there to get her supplies about once every six months!

[Moosepoop]

230. I'm pretty close to Battle Creek

I live in Sturgis. Maybe I'll take up knitting (you'll have to teach me, or sell me a Knitting for Dummies book)!
Best of luck with your shop!! :)

[knitter4democracy]

250. Hey, Sturgis is good and close!

I'm a certified knitting teacher, and I'll be having lots of classes at many different times for all schedules. I would love to have a DU'er come up and visit--if just for fun!

I feel bad that the landlord wants to put me in the County Dems place, and I'm trying to convince him to put me in the spot next door. If he doesn't have anyone for the spot next door, I'll get it, and the Dems will still have a home. That's good for all of us!

[marions ghost]

56. if this is "good citizenship"

we are certainly in deep trouble.

Can you imagine any drawbacks to such vigilantism?

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[knitter4democracy]

152. hmmmmmm

Bigger prisons full of innocent people, bigger cemetaries full of innocent people who just were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Sheesh! I don't know your life story, but you are one angry person getting a little too excited about hearing of another person's pain.

[marions ghost]

232. Dreamland LOL

= a world with lower prices and higher wages, because of supermarket vigilantism. Clerks are not trained to deal with shoplifters and have no business getting involved, other than calling security.

These clerks have been watching too many "Death Wish," or "Dirty Harry" videos--movies which glorify and romanticize vigilante behavior.

It's also an outgrowth of the general paranoia of these times where the public sees a terrorist behind every Bush. This kind of vigilantism is a way to feel more "in control." But it has very little effect on the activity of shoplifting.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

254. You forgot to add

The trains will come on time.

[vinessa4freedom]

66. You're sadly mistaken

If you think that roughing up this woman and publicly humiliating her will deter her from crime. More like it will alienate her further and cause her attitude to become indignant. If she had a life of support and good treatment, would she have devalued the place by stealing in the first place? Apprehension is fine, but it does not have to come with the loss of human dignity.

[NJmaverick]

76. Hopefully this women will not get a chance to make that choice

<< If you think that roughing up this woman and publicly humiliating her will deter her from crime.>>

If they lock her up she can be alienated all she wants, she will not be committing any more crime. Besides crime is a CHOICE, make the downside of committing one bad enough and most people will choose obeying the law and not hurting others.

[knitter4democracy]

155. Shoplifting never ends in long sentences.

You really think she's going to be locked up? Yes, IF she's guilty, she made a bad choice, but that's assuming an awful lot. Just because some young teens clerking in a story thought they saw something doesn't mean it happened.

What's going to happen when she gets out? How is she going to fit back into society? And if you don't care, why not? She could be your neighbor.

[Terran]

78. I sure hope you never become so poor

that you have to steal something to survive. Your lack of compassion and understanding for others will not keep in you good stead with others.

[NJmaverick]

82. Tell me you going to feel that way

<<I sure hope you never become so poor


that you have to steal something to survive.>>


First off the stealing to survive is an assumption not rooted in any facts.

Now I wish someone "so poor that they have to steal something to survive" breaks into your home and takes your stuff. I doubt you will be as generous with the money and goods of others as you were with your own.

Read post 35 that is the TYPICAL shop lifter not your fantasy one that steals only enough to survive.

[Bluerthanblue]

93. wow....

... you are a wounded soul-
and i too hope you never stand at the other side of what you percieve to be 'reality'- doled out by one who believes as you do-

You'd be welcome to anything i have- i would not kill you or even attempt to over any 'thing' i posess, or ever will-

An awful lot of teenage girls shoplift not out of a 'need' for the object, or out of a 'drug habit' but out of a cry for help- you've never seen them in all your experiences?

[Terran]

111. I wasn't referring to any factual situation

I know it's not likely that this woman's attempt to steal something from a grocery store was a matter of life or death. I imagine most shoplifting is done on impulse. I was referring to your own worst-case-possible scenario, and how your lack of humanity will feel to YOU when somebody is humiliating YOU in handcuffs, in public, for stealing food. Don't think it can't happen to you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

255. Speak for yourself.

I hope s/he DOES.

[JerseygirlCT]

99. Well, they said she stole

doesn't mean she did.

That's why we have a legal system, and not vigilante "justice".

[Bluerthanblue]

102. yeah... 'they' also

said Iraq had WMD's-

and look where we are now?-

Good point JerseygirlCT

[Cats Against Frist]

106. Thanks -- I was following the exchange

and I agree partially with both posters -- except for the fact about the vigilante justice thing. That's EXACTLY why we have a legal system -- and to have it any other way is barbaric. Pre-modern. And I'm a libertarian.

[progressivebydesign]

114. I have over 7,000 posts, over 4 years, and I agree with Nomad.

I'm saying that because I know that you, Nomad, will be attacked for your stance. I just posted below the same thing basically. This is how liberals shoot themselves in the foot over and over... this was someone who stole from the store, and the poster wasn't sure if there was any violence, etc.

[Bluerthanblue]

125. you have every right

to have an opinion and a voice- and i think this is exactly what is RIGHT with the 'democrats' who believe in literally taking the 'innocent until proven guilty' - credo seriously-
Doesn't matter how many 'posts' you have, or how long you've been here- Nomad is not being 'attacked for his stance' he being questioned about how firm his foundation is, and to perhaps think a little farther outside the 'box' than he is-

This was someone ACCUSED of stealing from the store- (or so it is said) How many people have been detained at Abu Girab, or Camp x-ray and then released because it was found that thier only 'crime' was thier being in the wrong place at the wrong time'-

Shoot first, ask questions later? If the store truly had reason to treat this woman in this way, i'd think that the manager, or at least the customer service personel would have explained exactly that rather than go through the exasperation of refunding her purchases, and reassure her that the situation was NOT one of out of control vigilante justice-

Everyone is entitled to a trial aren't they? As well as the right to disagree with another without being told they (in effect) are ignorant, because of the position they hold?

[progressivebydesign]

156. If the woman was white, driving an SUV, the poster would have walked by NT

[Bluerthanblue]

159. are you saying

you are "Oldlady"? in disguse?

if not, you are simply spittin into the wind and putting words into other peoples mouths, which is called lying in my household-

Ask her- see what she says- don't put your own prejudices in her mouth-

[beam me up scottie]

165. Are you accusing Oldlady of racial bias?

Why not ask her yourself instead of maligning her character to another poster?
Really bad form.

[expatriate]

164. How do you know this woman is guilty?

How did the people who decided to rough her up in the parking lot know? Did they all see it? Doubtful.

What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Particularly when you read about an observed incident, where people claimed that someone was shoplifting and that was why they roughed her up, and then decide that they did a civic duty by apprehending a "criminal"?

For all we know, the woman didn't do a darn thing.

[magellan]

212. You have proof of this?

First off the women STOLE, she was a criminal.

I missed the part where she was tried and convicted. :sarcasm:

Listen, I don't disagree that the clerks had every right to try and detain her if they suspected her of shoplifting. But it seems clear to me that their actions went recklessly beyond their training as supermarket clerks. What about all the innocent people in the vicinity? The incident could very easily have escalated out of control if the woman had been armed.

[Dark]

52. I'm just curious, what do you think they should have done?

I'm not justifying their actions, but simply letting her go seems wrong. They did have to keep her at the store, or else she'd get away scot-free.

What did you suggest they do instead?

[lonestarnot]

59. Give her the milk and bread and baby food and send her on her way!

[NJmaverick]

77. That's a sweet story

Then again it is EQUALLY possible she was shop lifting items to support a drug habit or simply wanted to get extra cash with out working. You have no basis to make your claim.

[lonestarnot]

88. Who gives a damn it's only milk and bread...how much do they throw

out every week?

[NJmaverick]

92. So because they throw out items

That would pose a threat to public health it is OK to take their stuff?!?!?! That makes no sense.

[lonestarnot]

129. So your into group bullying women?

[woo me with science]

136. ROFL!

seriously....are you twelve?????

[LisaL]

112. You should open the store and give people bread and

baby food for free. I wonder how much you would give away if it were your money. It so easy to tell other people to give away their stuff.
:eyes:

[Jade Fox]

65. See Post #35

[tx_dem41]

67. And if it wasn't a chain store?

A possibility the poster of #35 points out....

[Jade Fox]

69. That would depend on what the local laws are...

but any grocery store should have a plan to deal with shoplifters that
doesn't involve clerks playing vigillante, if only to protect the clerks
from potential harm.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

257. In Brazil, when someone is seeing shoplifting,

a store clerk (or a mean-looking security guard if available) gently coerces the person to give the things back and escorts him/her out of the place. My wife works in retail, she sees this happen all the time.

No COPS-like spectacle. Sorry if the punishists want their S&M fix -- they don't get it.

[Horse with no Name]

53. Kudos for your principles

My mom used to work at a major grocery store in Phoenix when I was small.
She came home one day and told me that they had caught a shoplifter.
She said that she was stealing baby food, cheap cans of generic food, etc.
It was obvious the woman was desperate and trying to feed her family.
They used to have a basket that they put all the dented cans in, boxes damaged in transit, etc.
The employees would have a raffle and whoever won, got the "basket".
One time, there were about 30 gallons of ice cream in the basket--so it was always a treat.
The store manager told that woman he wasn't going to prosecute her, told her to go get some groceries--food for the baby. He let her fill her basket up with groceries from the shelf. Then he gave her "the basket".
He told the woman that she didn't have to steal. If she ever found herself in a situation where she couldn't feed her family, to come and see him. All she had to do was ask.
When the woman left the store, he wrote a check to cover her groceries.
That was in the 70's, very few people in this country would ever treat this woman in the OP this way.
I would wonder what she stole. Was she just desperate and trying to feed her kids?
I'm sorry, stealing is wrong, but sometimes there are reasons people do things that they wouldn't normally do.
If my kids were starving and I had no other recourse--I'd do the same thing.

[seventythree]

61. food pantries?

In the 70's, we didn't have them in my community, but we have a number of them, now, and we are a small community. No one needs to starve -- every church has assistance, there are the public pantries, Salvation Army for food vouchers, basic health services at the county health department, WIC, food stamps. There are those who steal for the kick -- my guess is far more of those, than folks in genuine need.

[Horse with no Name]

64. In our area

I can't speak for other areas--I live in a poor community, and a very small one. Our indigent care is even stopping.
The assistance that can be offered is very limited and usually gone within the first couple of days of the month. Our town does have a high rate of petty crime and ALOT of meth.
I couldn't say for the area in question and couldnt say for the person who stole since I don't know what they stole.
However you feel about it, the employees did assault this woman.
Excessive force was used. Anyone who has ever worked around retail know that. You aren't allowed to lay your hands on anyone.
They are lucky this person didn't pull a knife on them and eviscerate them.

[seventythree]

70. yes, the employees could have been in danger

If you can't put your hands on someone, escorting them to the back is out, too, unless an escort just means giving them the directions to the back room -- to me it means, at least, guiding by the elbow.

[Horse with no Name]

130. In our day and time you never know who has a weapon

If she wouldn't voluntarily go to the back room or stay--for their safety and those other customers in the store and in the area, they should have followed her and got her license plate numbers or whatever.
But by acting like Rambo, they put EVERY person in the area in danger. If she had a gun and started shooting--it is possible innocent bystanders would have been hurt. For what? Some crappy item she stole. It isn't like she came in and hurt someone or threatened anyone.
Besides, what if they were wrong?

[seventythree]

133. good point

but we also do not know if she did do something threatening -- if so, I guess, there would be all the more reason to back off and just get the license number.

[ultraist]

203. Hunger rates have increased

Food stamps have been cut. Numerous social programs have been recently cut. The poverty rate has increased and the few programs that are still going are underfunded and cannot even come close to meeting demands.

Bush and his cronies have created a horribly cruel environment and women and people of color are getting hit the hardest.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. BRAVO! you are an inspiration..!!

... and i admire your courage, principals, and willingness to take a stand for decency- and make a step towards that "kinder gentler America" that Bush sr. talked alot about, but did nothing towards-

Shoeshine Boy would be proud of you too!!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

58. you have good principles!...and i'm with you on this one

[beam me up scottie]

62. Wow. You rock Old Lady!

Returning the groceries was genious, I wonder what they were thinking as they were putting everything away...

[LisaL]

123. What they were thinking?

They are not making profits of the groceries they sell. Such condescending attitude toward people who are making near minimal wage working a thankless job.
:eyes:

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

209. Since my post got deleted, I'll say it again,

WHERE did I exhibit a "condescending attitude"?
Read my post and SHOW ME.

[Vinca]

63. Kudos to you.

Every since Shrub was dubbed king, there seems to be an entitlement to be a tough asshole. Sheesh . . . you'd think the woman had been trying to nuke the store by that reaction!

[oldlady]

68. Wow...thanks for all the kind words--and the thoughts to ponder, too!

I like dialogue, so I don't mind those posters who felt I was wrong. I'd like to throw some other considerations into the pot though... while it might seem to be "good citizenship" to catch a shoplifter, it isn't good business to let six high school or early college aged kids to handle it. I think that the rush they seemed to get (talking on cell phones about the adventure) could be dangerous to them in the future. People steal for lots of reasons: desperate need, to get a kick, or because they are not stable. Next time, one of those six young people might get seriously hurt if the person is carrying a weapon. It's not simply expecting the cops to handle everything, it's being sensible & I think the bosses are not sensible to set these clerks to such a task. If my high school child was clerking somewhere and expected to wrestle a stranger I'd suggest they look for a new job and new boss. As to getting away with it - between the security cameras and the license plate on the car, I think they could have safely let her drive off and passed the information on to the police. As to driving up the costs or hurting customers/clerks financially, I doubt the costs to businesses of shoplifting have begun to approach the costs to consumers of executive perks in the big corporate office. They may not pay the employees fairly and blame it on theft loss, but I don't think that's truthful, considering they never take a loss at the upper levels. Thanks, again for giving me something to think about.
peace

[marions ghost]

237. You are so right--Street crime and petty crime

like this is what gets everybody's attention. But the crimes that really cost big money are the crimes we never see. White collar crimes at every level of business and industry are responsible for
BILLIONS of dollars in losses every year.

But "street crime" involving a much lower net loss -- is what is filling up the courts. THIS situation is where citizens need to become more vigilant. Find out who REALLY is making out like a bandit!
-----------------------------

1. READ "The Cheating Culture," by David Callahan. (2004 Harcourt) -- excellent well-written and well researched discussion on this. See his website.

2. Also Google "Corporate Crime" --to find info

[Ilsa]

72. I wish I had another grocery store to go to if I witnessed that...

My choices are HEB and WlaMart. There are a couple of mom & pop stores, but they are more like convenience stores.

I hope I'd take a stand in not letting store employees physically restrain the woman, though. That is not the job of a regular employee, and she could have been badly hurt.

It's a good thing for you to stand by your convictions. Nice job.

[G_j]

80. the world needs more people like you!

thank you, thank you, thank you!

[Jane Eyre]

84. They broke the law

Any good retail store will have policies against this kind of thing because it is against the law for employees to take it upon themselves to physically restrain a customer suspected of shoplifting. What if they were wrong and she did not shoplift? Stores have been sued for this kind of thing.

[donco6]

87. Yes, it could be categorized as assault.

Idiots.

[Eloriel]

150. I hope you're both right

The specter of this just chills me to the bone -- some poor black woman (no matter HOW guilty she may or may not be) being roughed up by some smart alecky little snots still wet behind the ears. Make that a BUNCH of little snots. Just doesn't seem right to me. At all. I'm glad to know it's not.

[funflower]

199. They're right.

Doesn't matter whether it's a black lady or a white punk kid. They don't have the right to physically assault her or "disturb the peace" to detain her. Legit store cops usually talk people into giving up the goods.

[PA Mamma]

94. Thank You ...

Yes, everyone does seem to be on steroids, and I can't stand it.

You took a stand and it's one that I probably would've had trouble doing myself (taking back all the groceries.)

Your reaction and action is very inspiring, thank you!
And thanks for posting too.

I will think of you next time I am tempted to "not act" because it would be a pain in the butt.

[BringEmOn]

97. Those "tough guy" employees have probably stolen more

from the store than this person ever could.

[seventythree]

104. If the clerks broke the rules,

they may get fired, assuming they were told the rules.
Indulge a little story, please --
A friend of mine shot a home invader -- presumably the same invader who had scared the heck out of me while I was staying overnight at her place, alone, a month or so before this incident -- she broke the rules, as you can't register hand guns in Chicago, so hers was illegal. She didn't kill the thief, just wounded him and let him out the door. She broke the rules; the gun was confiscated, but the police praised her and offered her free time on their firing range. There are rules -- and the reality of a situation, which also should be shown some understanding. Instead of hauling my friend to the police station, the police showed some understanding. (I'd guess that when they inputted the address, say saw the incident with me not long before.)

[Rabrrrrrr]

105. I don't blame the clerks at all

I fully understand why they did what they did. Not every store has security guards - we didn't in the grocery store I worked in. That grocery store still doesn't have 'em. We had US. We, the clerks: we were the ones who had to chase down and stop the criminal assholes ourselves. And getting a license plate number is fucking useless. You either catch the criminal in the act, with the merchandise, so you can prove they stole it, or they are forever free.

And it's certainly easier to convince someone to stop when you have six clerks, then when you have just one.

That said, the clerks were out of line being physically abusive to the woman; but since we don't have all knowledge of the situation there, there's a possibility that the only way to stop her was to do what they did. She might have been a repeat offender, who knows. She might have only taken a pack of gum.

But I am not going to judge the clerks as being wrong, because I've been one myself, and I know the frustration of watching criminal assholes walk out of your store stealing from your paycheck, your retirement, your benefits.

[countingbluecars]

107. Wow

I am amazed that a store owner would allow clerks to play security guard. Talk about liability!

[Rabrrrrrr]

116. How many stores have security? Damned few of 'em.

Yeah, in New York City or other larger cities, many (but not all) of them do.

Out in the midwest where I grew up, we never had security in stores. Hell, I still travel back to WI a fair bit, and can't remember any store that has a security guard in it. The mall in my hometown does, but none of the stores.

[LiberalFighter]

140. Back in Wisconin there weren't security guards in grocery stores

Moved to Ft Wayne IN in 1986 and couldn't believe how many police officers working second jobs as security guards for grocery stores.

[Rabrrrrrr]

143. Did you move for GM as part of the grand exodus out of Janesville?

And I was surprised, when I moved from my little town into Manhattan, at the security guards everywhere.

:-)

Hell, it was unique to me to see cops out walking around, and not just the random one-off, either, but packs of 'em.

[LiberalFighter]

144. Yep

and when the time is right I will most likely move back to Wisconsin. It depends on where I think I am needed.

[Rabrrrrrr]

145. I couldn't imagine living in Fort Wayne

No offense intended to any die hard Fort Wayne fans, but as a Wisconsin boy, I don't think I could handle it.

I have a cousin who moved there with GM, and he comes back to WI every frickin' possibility he has.

[LiberalFighter]

146. Who is your cousin?

As for not being able to handle it... many of those that came here from Wisconsin either went back as a family or their spouses left them.

I don't think many retirees of those that came from outside Indiana stayed here either.

[Rabrrrrrr]

147. Sadly, that I cannot tell you

I'm not surprised that divorce has been popular, and definitely not surprised that no one wanted to stay there after retirement.

[Ignis]

149. I'm amazed and disgusted, myself.

What's next--DU posters calling retail clerks "pussies" because they didn't try to tackle armed robbers? Whether or not the woman stole from the store, she has every right to sue for battery if the details of this incident are even remotely close to the OP's description of events.

This whole phony, macho "Let's roll" crap appears to have infected the American psyche. Isn't it bad enough that we have to watch Shrub poncing about in his pseudo-military fetish flightsuits 24/7? Blech.

[napi21]

109. Something else everyone has to recognize...

there's a horrific amount of shoplifting that goes on in every store! My husband has worked in a major grocery store chain in the SE for a long time. It's truely amazing what people steal, and the end cost to YOU the customer! Prices have to be higher BECAUSE of this theft. The estimate at the chain where hubby works is about 10% of gross sales! That means more than a 10% higher price has to be added to everything you buy just to cover their losses.

You also need to recognize that people don't steal things like a loaf of bread that costs $1.00, they steal things like t bone steaks, and filets. Few, if any stores employ security guards anymore. They're all trying to cut costs and that was a position they felt they could eliminate without damaging their business. It really wasn't much better when they had the guards, it was just an appearance of a uniform that made people think they were trying.

I don't know the circumstances of the incident you described, ut you need to recognize that the problem is the shoplifting that is hurting you, not the clerks who catch them!

[Rabrrrrrr]

122. Absolutely! Even in my relatively crime free lilly white home town

the theft was staggering from the grocery store.

And like you said, they don't steal packets of kool-aid or gum, they steal meat, and expensive meat, lobster tails, shrimp, and so on. And they steal liquor - vast amounts of liquor.

Plus all the theft from 500 piggy fucks eating grapes, strawberries, kiwis, and shoving bananas down their kid's gullets every day.

[Lady Effingbroke]

207. Exactly.

The grocery store where I worked had alarms at all the exits. The meat department wrapped anti-theft tags in with the expensive cuts of meat (Angus) because they were (and still are) a high-theft item.

[ultraist]

208. It costs the customers, not the well paid CEOs of the corporations

My step father was a CEO of a large grocery store chain and they certainly didn't consider cutting his salary to compensate for any loss due to theft. They passed it on to the regular customers. I really don't have any pity for the megacorps and their top, well paid, fat retirement fund executives.

I also don't mind paying a bit more for groceries to compensate for people stealing FOOD! How sad that there are not people who can afford better foods for their children.

I don't condone stealing in general, but it's important to consider the wider implications of this. Demonizing those who commit a misdemeanor while white collar felony criminals get off scott free is a conservative RWer attitude. :puke:

[jobycom]

184. If the woman had turned on shot one of the clerks in the head

with a gun hidden somewhere, or if the clerks had hurt the woman seriously, the liability lawsuits against the supermarket for allowing clerks to behave as they did would take a lot more out paychecks, retirement and benefits than anything a few shoplifters could steal.

Most retail stores I know of will fire an employee for attempting something like that. It's in a lot of manuals. When I trained managers and sales people, I told them they would be fired for pursuing a shoplifter (although I saw my manager get away with it, she was sternly reprimanded).

The reason is because of the possibility of injury, and the liability of having untrained employees attempt a dangerous job. The risks of such liability lawsuits are higher than the reality of shoplifting.

[yorkiemommie1]

108. from one 'old lady'

to another... GREAT JOB!!!!

this whole attitude is sanctioned by the bellicosity of the bush administration and has pervaded our entire culture. it IS a steroid of a sort.

[progressivebydesign]

110. Hmm. Do you know how much stores lose to shoplifting?

Do you advocate letting shoplifters go? I don't understand the post, or the resounding congrats to you. If someone is stealing, the stores have to hold them until the police come. Sorry.. but we just had a store employee critically injured by a "shoplifter" who ran him over TWICE while he was trying to get their license plate number. DU is a wierd place... it's like reverse racism. If the shoplifter was white would you have made such a grand gesture? That paternalistic attitude toward blacks is a type of racism in itself, as though the shoplifter didn't deserve to be subdued because of her color. Were you there for the whole incident? Do you know how she came to be subdued that way? Liberals fight the weirdest battles.

[LisaL]

117. DU is a weird place.

Sometimes it drives me nuts. I used to work as a clerk and our store have been robbed numerous times, even at gun point. Sorry if I don't want to give shop lifter and robbers milk and cookies and send them on their merry way!

[jobycom]

185. That's such a bogus question.

Do you have any idea how often white people are arrested, as opposed to black people, and how differently they are treated? Just one area of statistics. 80% of people in jail for drug use charges are black. Yet every poll done in the last few decades shows that black and white people admitt to using drugs at just about the same rate--about 50% of both races claim they use drugs. Blacks compose roughly 15% of the population, whites around 60%. So why are black people in jail at such disproportionately high numbers?

There are a lot of reasons you can point to, but it ain't no coincidence. And asking what Oldlady would have done if the suspect--SUSPECT--had been white is like asking what she would have done if the suspect had been orange. It's just not likely to happen, but if it does, she can deal with it then.

The reason LIBERALS are more offended by seeing a black woman roughed up by kids at a supermarket is because we understand the way things really work. This does not happen to white people often enough to be a problem. When it does, lawyers are called, the news stations are alerted, and the store manager gets fired after apologizing. But as any number of serious incidences of innocent black "suspects" being shot 41 times by cops, or beaten to death, or being raped with plungers, or being chased into oncoming traffic by vigilante mobs, or by being drowned in rivers should prove, it happens to black people all the time.

It's not paternalism, it's a strong sense of justice which motivates liberals. And the old cry of "What do you want us to do, let him go because he's black" is what segregationists and lynchers screamed for a century. It's beneath a liberal to go that route.

Sorry about your store employee, but that is the other half of what oldlady was saying: that employee should have been made to understand that his job did not ALLOW him to chase a shoplifter, even to get his license tag (something you can do without standing in the path of the vehicle, btw). If he wasn't, then your store should be liable. I've seen how companies whip their employees into a frenzy over shoplifting--it's YOUR money, they are stealing from YOU, etc-- and that wreckless disregard for the safety of employees is wrong. These stupid punk clerks who roughed up this woman now have it in their minds that they can do that the next time, and the next, until the time it finally catches up with them and someone pays dearly.

So not only did the actions of these clerks rob this woman of her dignity and treat her like a criminal when we have no idea whether she really was, it put these clerks in danger, and both actions need to be punished as a lesson to all involved. As for the shoplifting--I'm sorry, I love money and things, too, but theft has been a part of commerce since commerce began, and it isn't going to stop because some high-schoolers catch a woman smuggling something out in her coat-- if she even did. I doubt they affected Profit & Loss one little bit, except for the sale the lost and any upcoming lawsuits. You watch your merchandise, you confront people in the store, you try to get them to return the items, you call the cops, etc., but the few times you're actually in a situation where you can chase a suspect THAT YOU ARE SURE IS REALLY A SHOPLIFTER is just not going to be fiscally worth it to allow employees to do so. If they make it out the front door before the cops get there, they won. Go back to work.

[LisaL]

113. Actually, I think some people should try and work as

store clerks. Maybe then they would get a clue.
:eyes:

[countingbluecars]

118. Should it be a store clerk's job

to catch and restrain shoplifters? Are they trained to do this?

[LisaL]

119. Whose job do you think it should be?

Not all stores have security guards.

[countingbluecars]

124. Not a clerk.

I would hope a security guard has training in the proper way to restrain a person. Do store clerks? If the store can't afford a security guard then they may just be limited to calling the police and getting a license plate number until the police arrive.

[LostinVA]

223. That is exactly what you do

Especially if it is illegal for you to restrain the person. Sometimes, if the person seemed like they could be intimidated (like a kid), I'd stop them on their way out and ask if I could ring up the book they had. I would smile nicely and act pleasantly. Sometimes they would give it to me, sometimes they would brush by me, sometimes they would cuss me out. Sometimes I would walk out and write down their tag number. And, someone upthread is right: you do NOT stand directly behind the person's car while you do this!

It is not worth getting either hurt or sued. If you're not BEING PAID OR HAVEN'T BEEN TRAINED to be a security guard or cop, then just do what you can non-violently and then report the loss.

[LiberalFighter]

141. Clerks should only report the incident to their store manager

Then the store manager should confront the individual

[Rabrrrrrr]

121. I second that!

It's so much easier to completely understand the entirety of a situation by coming into it late, briefly overhearing a conversation that may or not be related to it, then driving by it again a few minutes later.

That's how scientists work, I believe.

:sarcasm:

[Telly Savalas]

178. Actually, maybe you shouldn't assume that those of us who sympathize

with the OP have never been clerks ourselves.

[LostinVA]

224. Exactly -- I have been both a clerk and a retail manager

And I am firmly on the OP's side with this. I would have done the same thing.

[LostinVA]

222. I have worked as a store clerk and a retail manager for

About 12 years total. I would have fired any clerk who tried to restrain someone. Why?

1.) It was illegal in both NC and VA for that clerk to do it.
2.) They were not trained to be a security guard -- both they could get hurt.
3.) Same as above, except they could hurt someone.
4.) Eyewitness testimony is often wrong: the clerk may not have seen what they think they saw. I got stopped in a store by a security guard once and was ORDERED to dump out my purse. I refused to do it unless a police officer came. The officer came and I dumped it out. There was NOTHING in there. The joker had seen me slip a cough drop wrapper into my purse, and thought I was stealing something.

So, I DO have a clue. Shoplifters suck big time, and screw up stores' shrinkage. However, you can;'t just do that to people. Sometime you have to take a loss. Or, you do what I did on many occasions, and follow them to the parking lot and write down their license plate and THEN call the cops. It sucks, but that's what you do. You don't play John Wayne and open yourself up for liability. Businesses have a certain amount of shrinkage written into their insurance, and I bet the VP of that chain would rather that woman have gotten away with a $10 steak or a bag of cookies than have to settle a lawsuit out of court for $100k.

[AuntiBush]

120. Agreed! It's here too! We have to out-law the Kool-Aid!

I'm right with you. Know the feeling and did similiar thing the other day.

Walked into a local store where I use to love to shop but rarely get the chance anymore. Suddenly, all the books are lined-up as you enter - ya can't miss a one. There dotted along the long line of books were pro-Freepers; anti-Democrat books. Tons of them.

I could see that round camera watching above so I made sure someone knew my disgust. I gently tap-slammed the book down, making sure my digusted look could be seen by the camera and I said to a passing shopper, "Well, I can see why NO ONE shops here anymore." "I won't be back."

Looking up that camera I spun proudly around, and marched out.

Looked up this store on one of the buyblue sites. Lo and behold, there it was. A total 100% Neo-Con Bush financier.

They won't see my money again and I made notes on what stores are the same where I shop.

Thanks for that store. And no. You're not alone. I can see other's looking at each other in the same fashion. It's hard to tell who's normal and who's disgustingly mad these days.

[Helga Scow Stern]

126. Way to go, oldlady!

That kind of courageous behavior--civil disobedience--is what this country is supposed to be based on.

[LisaL]

128. Returning your groceries is civil disobedience?

LOL.
She only did the clerks a favor. If she doesn't show up in there anymore, they will only be happy cause it's less work for them to do.
The less customers, the better the day.
If she really wanted to punish the clerks, she should go in there often and shop, shop, shop.
:eyes:

[countingbluecars]

132. "She did the clerks a favor"?

You were defending the clerks earlier, and now you're saying they would rather not have this paying customer in the store?

[LisaL]

134. Well, when I was a clerk, I would rather

have no customers in the store than have lots and lots. Clerks are not making any money depending on how much they sell. I would have been very happy if nobody showed up- I would still make the same salary and work a lot less.

[expatriate]

166. If there were no customers in the store where you worked, ever

You would not have had a job at all. Not many stores stay open if they have no customers.

[LisaL]

186. Boo-hoo.

No matter how mean I was to people, they still kept coming in droves. As for having no jobs, I quit that gig a long time ago. WTF wants to be subject to that kind of abuse from morons who are supposed to be always right?
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[countingbluecars]

189. "No matter how mean to people I was"

You sound really proud of yourself. Employee attitudes like that can be just as, if not more, detrimental to a business than shoplifting.

[LisaL]

193. Like I said, go and work as a clerk. I would

like to see what your attitude is going to be after a while.
I kind of doubt you would stay all that sweet after being abused day after day.

[countingbluecars]

197. I have worked several jobs in the service areas.

I deal with people every day. It is my experience that you reap what you sow. Positive breeds positive and negative breeds negative. Try a little kindness. You may be pleasantly surprised!

[LisaL]

201. Sorry to say, but my experience have been just the opposite.

When you are nice to people, they walk all over you. The meaner you are to them, the better they treat you.

[countingbluecars]

206. Sounds like you've had

some bad experiences. Hope things improve for you. Peace and good night.

[LostinVA]

226. I was a clerk AND a retail manager for many, many years

And had people give me an attitude about 80% of the day -- especially since I lived in a affluent town with people who had no respect for store clerks. As neither a clerk nor a manager was I EVER outwardly rude to any customer. Ever. I knew what my job was. As a manager, I would have fired a clerk for being rude to a customer, unless that customer had called them a sexist, racist, or homophobic name.

I did this every day for over a decade, and yeah, I stayed outwardly sweet every day. Many days it wasn't easy, but that was my JOB.

[expatriate]

192. I didn't say you have no job(s)

Obviously your attitude about retail jobs is such that you really shouldn't work in that sector, so it's good that you did leave that job long ago. It's frustrating and often infuriating. I was pointing out the fact that, had there been no customers as you would have preferred, there would have been no business at all, and thus, no job.

[Telly Savalas]

176. If that's the case, then why the fuck should the clerks give a rat's ass

if someone shoplifts?

(Typo edit.)

[LisaL]

187. Well, after a while, it gets on your nerves.

Since the customers were stealing every freaking day, it gets kind of irritating after a while. You should try working as a clerk, you might even get a clue.
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Telly Savalas]

195. Gee fucking whiz. I was a fucking clerk. Does that mean I have a clue?

[LisaL]

196. Obviously not.

[LostinVA]

225. Really? I loved being busy when I was a clerk

It made the day go so much quicker.

[EFerrari]

135. Good going!

I agree that this whole place is on steroids. We need Fair Witnesses everywhere, it seems. When ever we hear any kind of altercation, we've started to move to it and simply witness, especially if it involved violence toward a vulnerable person and especially if it involves the police. We don't interfere with the PD, just note the time and car number.

Knowing there are witnesses seems to keep everyone a little more humane . . .

Very well done!

[bush_is_wacko]

137. I have never seen anything like that here...but I just wanted to give

YOU a round of applause! Way to go!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Vektor]

142. I'm not sure that's even legal - in my experience, you cannot

manhandle a shoplifter. If you SEE them steal - plainly - you may demand the merchandise back, but if they flee the store, you cannot run after them and grab them. In high school and college I worked retail and in grocery stores, and no matter what state I lived in, the rules were always the same. The main goal is to recover the merchandise by asking if they plan to pay for it, and if not, to please return it. Again, you have to SEE them pocket it.) You MAY not physically touch the person - if they run, let them go and call security or police.

That's it. Attempting to physically scuffle with a fleeing suspect can put store personnel in danger, or injure the thief, which while they may be stealing, that does NOT warrant a civilian to assault them.

[SouthernDem2004]

157. It is not illegal to physically detain someone but you do open yourself up

to civil litigation if you are wrong.

[Vektor]

202. Ah! Maybe that's why they told us not to.

I don't think it's a good idea, and it sounds like in the OP's case, what she witnessed was above and beyond what was necessary.

[DavidFL]

213. Yes, and it opens the store up to potential liability as well.

Because the store may be held liable for the acts of its employees. That's a bit of an oversimplification of premises liability law though, because each state has their own laws with respect to sitatuions like this. And plaintiffs in these kind of cases will always name the store as a defendant because its what's called a "deep pocket." That is, should the plaintiff receive a verdict in their favor, they'll most likely be able to recover from the store faster than they would the employee. But the employee will also be named as a defendant as they committed the tort.

I used to work for a firm that did premises liability defense for chain stores and their employees would call the cops if they caught someone shoplifting because the stores were scared sh*tless of being sued if they allowed their employees to take it upon themselves to stop a shoplifter.

[Vektor]

267. Makes sense -

Thanks for the clarification, David. I always knew what the rules were regarding how to deal with shoplifters, but this lends a better understanding of the reasons behind them.

[LostinVA]

227. But it is illegal to do this in many states

You can't just grab people and restrain them, either as a private citizen or working in a store -- at least in many states. As I've mentioned several times in this thread, as a store manager in NC and VA, any emp,oyee would did that would have been fired and arrested.

[Joe Chi Minh]

148. old lady, you are a giant.

And you will be to your dying breath.

It's always great to be reminded that there are people among the living, in every age, "whom age does not wither, nor the years condemn". Not just those young people slain on the battle-field in the flower of youth.

I read an extremely funny story, allegedly true about a box of 14 cigars purchased by a man in South Carolina, with a warranty against fire. He then smoked them, and sued for their loss "in a series of small fires..".

Rather than appeal the successful conviction (the judge ruling the vendor should have made his conditions more specific), the vendor then sued the man for a series of arson attacks, for which he was duly fined 14,000 dollars and sentenced to 2 years in prison! The anecdote concluded with the words, "It could only happen in America". I suspect that the taking of a moral stand, such as you made, is also something that "could only happen in America". And does so from time to time.

[Democracy White]

153. I used to work at Walgreens

And we had our fair share of shoplifters. I lived in a predominantly poor, black area at the time and most of the shoplifters were indeed, black.

I remember during my orientation training that we were not to try and apprehend a shoplifter ourselves due to safety reasons. We were told to alert either the security guard or managment and that they would take care of it.

Plus we had security tags on everything in the store so every time it beeped when someone was leaving, we had to kindly ask then to give us their bags and go through them and check it off the reciept (We had to give them their receipts) if there was an item that was in the bag but isn't on the reciept, then we would ask the cashier if she/he had rung it up or suspect that it was stolen.

I remember one time that the security guard and management apprehended this man right next to the cash register I was at. The man became violent and almost kicked me in the face. I had to jump over the counter to avoid getting hurt and keep an eye on my register. They finally dragged him to the office and kept him there until the police came. It was apparent that the man suffered from some mental disorder and we could hear him yelling from the office. I forgot what he stole though.

We have let shoplifters go because we aren't allow to apprehend them ourselves, management and security was sometimes too late approaching the register area.

So I can see that it was wrong for these kids to apprehend the woman. They don't know if she was holding a knife or a gun. That she may have had mental problems. Either way they put themselves in danger.

Dee

[screembloodymurder]

154. That is nothing.

Several years ago, on Mothers Day, I watched the police handcuff a very young (6-8) girl in front of a flower store. She wouldn't let go of the flowers in her hand.

[Evergreen Emerald]

162. hmmm....I am confused

What do you suggest one do with a person who steals? You do not know the story: perhaps she was running away with money or merchandise for her drug habit--in part the cause of high prices (to account for the thefts). Perhaps she had assualted someone in an attempt to get away with stealing. Or perhaps she was attmepting to steal items from the store and they were detaing her until the police arrived.

What do you suggest? How should civilized people treat those who attempt to flee with someone else's stuff? Perhaps they should have bought her a latte and a massage instead? My guess is that if they let her go--she would run. Or is that ok with you to steal and run with no consequences?

You say that when you returned the police were standing around talking: were they perhaps interviewing witnesses to the crime? Or trying to figure out what happened?

I will tell you this: if someone attempts to steal my stuff or hurt me or my family, I will not be kind or gentle or humane.

I wonder: why do you not expect humanity from the thief?

[expatriate]

167. Why do you assume that the woman stole anything at all?

It's possible that she didn't. People are accused of doing things that they did not do all the time.

It seems to me that many people here are automatically assuming, on the weight of an anecdote, that the woman being restrained in the parking lot stole something. She's being called a criminal and a shoplifter.

Yes, she might be - but if she wasn't, she wouldn't be the first person accused by others of doing something she did not do. It wouldn't be the first time that a group of people engaged in vigilante tactics mistakenly.

This is why many retail businesses instruct their employees never to physically interfere with a suspected shoplifter - because if you do and the person was NOT stealing anything, the possibility of charges and lawsuits being brought by the suspected shoplifter is very strong indeed.

[Evergreen Emerald]

170. Certainly she deserves her day in court

But if there is probable cause to stop her, they should. I am not sure the point of your post. You are suggesting some sort of vigilante tactics that assumes a crime occurred that they are attempting to handle on their own--which is appropriate until the police arrive. Yet you also suggest that we are making an assumption to suggest she is a shop lifter. Are you suggesting that a group of clerks decided to beat up an innocent shopper for no apparent reason?

Remember, the clerk told our DU shopper that she was a shop lifter...so again: they had probable cause to hold her until the police arrived. Then she may have her day in court.

How much money do you suppose is lost to small busines owners due to shoplifting. How much more money do you suppose we pay due to thiefs?

Why is no one concerned about her behavior?

[expatriate]

177. my point is this

There are people here, who are basing their belief that the woman in question is a shoplifter strictly on an anecdote, related by someone who did not see the entire event and was told that the woman shoplifted by a bystander (this is hearsay). They were not present for the entire event. They did not witness what went on other than the manhandling of someone in a store parking lot. They do not know, one way or another, whether the woman who was being held is innocent or guilty. They also don't know whether the clerks are acting in good faith or not. They don't know anyone involved at all.

Yet the woman the OP saw being held has been vilified here as a shoplifter, that she deserved what happened to her, etc. - and the truth is, nobody here really knows what she did or did not do. This speaks volumes about intolerance and jumping to conclusions.

I am not suggesting that a group of clerks decided to beat up an innocent shopper for no apparent reason - but there is a possibility that factors have come into play that might have influenced their decision to do so. The woman might have been mistaken for someone else, she might not have actually taken anything. It's possible that they acted out of prejudice. There is no way we here at DU can possibly know what really happened, because judgements here are being based on an anecdote related by someone who was not directly involved, and only witnessed part of the incident.

I am not saying that she is guilty or that she is not guilty because I cannot possibly know. Neither can anyone else here. Just because six people manhandle someone in a store parking lot doesn't mean that the person being manhandled necessarily did anything wrong.

I own a retail business. I have owned retail businesses for more than twenty-five years, so I certainly know about the deleterious effects of shoplifting and other forms of theft on retail establishments. I am also aware of the way the damages caused by shoplifting are passed on to the consumer.

If the woman is a shoplifter, of course I would be concerned about her behavior. However, I do not know, and nobody on DU knows, whether she is a shoplifter or not. For all we know, she has a bitter ex-husband or ex-friend working in that shop, and he/she made a false accusation and set off the situation.

We just don't know enough about the actual situation to make these judgements about this unknown woman and what she might or might not have done. It wouldn't be the first time someone was accused of doing something they did not do.

[Evergreen Emerald]

234. following your logic

We are also making assumptions about the store clerks actioins and motives based on anecdotal evidence by a person who did not see the entire event.

[barb162]

163. this kind of crap has been going on for years. One time I saw

a black store guard tear a woman's hair out (the "perp" was white). She was holding the woman by the back of her hair on her head and there were big clumps of hair on her shoulder that had been pulled out by this fucking guard!!!! I was so shocked I called the main store's office and complained and they were nonplussed, like what the hell do you care? And I said , what if that guard thinks I stole something? Do I get my hair pulled out too? This was about 20 years ago in a high class dept. store. Now I can see a store guard cuffing a shoplifter and waiting for the cops to come. But that's it, no farther.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

168. Good job oldlady!

I would have been tempted to go in and clean out their liquor section while they were distracted, but you handled it better.

I'm sorry to see that a few ugly people have come out of the woodwork on this issue. I don't know exactly what makes people think shoplifters SHOULD be tortured and still vote democratic... But I'd rather not hear from them between election days!

[LisaL]

190. And attitudes displayed on this board are

the reason democrats can't win elections no more-no matter what Bush does. WTF do you propose to do with thieves? Give them milk and cookies and tell them to steal again?

[Evergreen Emerald]

214. I agree Lizzy

This whole thread is about how the evil store clerks stopped a person they witnessed stealing merchandise and kept her there until the police arrived. I do not understand what they did wrong. This is more of the Alice in Wonderland syndrome going on in America today (that I usually equate with Bush and Co.)

The one they saw steal stuff is the innocent victim. The people who stopped the thief are the bad guys. Through the looking glass.

[LisaL]

229. I bet if this woman stole their wallet, and run off, and the clerks

had stopped her, it would have been a different story. But then again, who knows? Maybe they would have been happy if the woman used their money and credit cards to buy whatever it is she wanted.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

245. Here we go again

From "people should use more restraint" to "criminals should be coddled and allowed to run free" in less than 60 seconds.

The problem is not that thieves are arrested. It seems that everyone these days enjoys playing the cop--and we know exactly where that comes from.

As for voting, did it ever occur to you that Democratic politicians have been playing the law 'n order card for years--and that "law 'n order" might keep as many people home from the polls as the idea that liberals are "soft on crime"?

As for your heroes, the clerks: I've known grocery clerks who were AMAZING shoplifters. They were brutal against outsiders who came in to steal because it was their "turf", not because they were loyal!

I for one am sick of seeing cops standing around laughing, eating, joking, smoking, busting people for things I don't consider crimes, and thereby STEALING my tax money!

[Starfury]

169. Reminds me of a Heinlein quote - What are the marks of a sick culture?

I've always found this passage from his novel "Friday" to be quite striking, particularly the last couple paragraphs:

"What are the marks of a sick culture?

It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn't the whole population.

A very bad sign. Particularism. It was once considered a Spanish vice but any country can fall sick with it. Dominance of males over females seems to be one of the symptoms.

Before a revolution can take place, the population must lose faith in both the police and the courts.

High taxation is important and so is inflation of the currency and the ratio of the productive to those on the public payroll. But that's old hat; everybody knows that a country is on the skids when its income and outgo get out of balance and stay that way - even though there are always endless attempts to wish it way by legislation. But I started looking for little signs and what some call silly-season symptoms.

I want to mention one of the obvious symptoms: Violence. Muggings. Sniping. Arson. Bombing. Terrorism of any sort. Riots of course - but I suspect that little incidents of violence, pecking way at people day after day, damage a culture even more than riots that flare up and then die down. Oh, conscription and slavery and arbitrary compulsion of all sorts and imprisonment without bail and without speedy trial - but those things are obvious; all the histories list them.

I think you have missed the most alarming symptom of all. This one I shall tell you. But go back and search for it. Examine it. Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms as you have named... But a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot.

This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. Look for it. Study it. It is too late to save this culture..."

-----

Yeah, it may not perfectly describe our current situation, but it's still remarkably on target. Considering that Heinlein wrote that almost 25 years ago...

[Jesus Saves]

191. nice quote

saved it...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

172. I bet the store clerks were big fans of COPS

on FOX-TV.

I watched it once, and it seemed to consist entirely of white cops throwing black people to the floor.

[expatriate]

181. my first husband and I used to call it COPS Syndrome

It leads to people throwing around what they think are "legal" terms or cop jargon, and is akin to those non-medical-profession folks who go into Emergency rooms and and keep using the term "stat".

During the last few years I lived in America, I had the misfortune to have to contend with some legal issues regarding vandalism of my property by neighborhood kids. It was so sadly obvious that people were drawing their entire knowledge of America's laws from television that it wasn't funny.

The kids, when simply asked by the police officer if they knew anything about the vandalism, were incredibly dramatic. They kept on saying "I have a WITNESS", even though they weren't accused of anything (in fact, we didn't suspect the kids in question of having done it in the first place, but they were being asked if they knew anything). They yelled that they hadn't been read their rights (no, and they weren't being arrested either).

Then the parents got into it, yelling about "having witnesses" and "being read their rights". The cops kept trying to explain that no-one suspected these particular kids of anything, that no-one was under arrest, and that NO-ONE HAD TO GIVE ANY INFORMATION IF THEY DIDN'T WANT TO. That we were simply asking if anyone was willing to give us information.

After a lot more yelling about people having witnesses to prove their innocence (when they weren't being accused of anything) and yelling about not having been read their rights, the cops and I just gave up.

People don't seem to get it that those TV shows are not particularly accurate, are often staged, and are edited for high drama and shockability.

What's funnier is that Australians often watch American TV shows and then claim that they have the right to bear arms in Australia. Wrong laws, mate.

No wonder I haven't watched TV since I was eleven.

[SouthernDem2004]

235. Welcome to my world... :)

As a Police Officer I have to hear this type of stuff all of the time. People think movies and TV are real and accurate. Kind of sad...

[Hubert Flottz]

174. Maybe she was stealing to feed her kids because her job was

outsourced! Maybe she's one of those people that Bush counts as employed again, because her unemployment benefits ran out, but there is no job for her! Maybe her husband is in Iraq and she has to steal to feed her kids!

Maybe she stole because she sees people like Kenny Boy steal millions and still walk around smiling with millions in stolen money still in the offshore banks!

Anyway I'm glad you did as you did! I probably would have backhanded some of the Bushler Youth!

[LisaL]

188. You came with that sob story real quick, didn't you?

Most people steal cigarettes. Maybe she was stealing cause she wanted a free smoke.

[fishwax]

204. and maybe she wasn't stealing at all

[LisaL]

205. And maybe she wasn't even there.

:sarcasm:

[Hubert Flottz]

215. Maybe!

If I was telling a SOB story it would have been about the GOP!

[fishwax]

236. she wouldn't be the first person to be falsely accused of shoplifting

it's happened to me, and I'm sure I'm not alone. But I'm sure you've got all the facts in this case. :sarcasm:

[marions ghost]

239. here is what happened to me when I was in college...

I was looking at some "designer" glasses frames in an optometrists shop--it was a very large selection so it took awhile to look at them. All of a sudden this tall middle-aged woman came storming from behind the counter and reached inside my heavy winter coat and ran her hands all over my chest. I didn't even know what was going on at first, then she stuck her hands in my pockets. (She would not have done this to a man). When no glasses frames fell out, she raged back to her station, disappointed but still angry. I can still see the look of hate in her eyes. I was traumatised and did report the assault, but as it was nearing exam time I did not have the energy it would take to follow through on prosecution. The police also implied that it would be her word against mine, and she would undoubtedly get off, even though no shoplifting occurred.

No, I don't believe in "vigilante justice."

[fishwax]

242. that's messed up

i'd be furious, but it's sad that there really isn't much you can do in that situation. It definitely does happen, though, and is one reason that clerks shouldn't be vigilantes, imo.

[grasswire]

179. several weeks ago...

...I was in the supermarket in this liberal city when I heard a wailing coming from the area of the checkout. People all around me stopped still, turned their heads and listened. Two security guards had an older African American fellow on the floor, cuffing him. He was wailing "I want my muffin. I paid for the muffin. Don't do this. Please don't do this. People are waiting for me at home. Don't do this!" It was heart-wrenching. Many people were visibly disturbed. I walked to customer service and offered to pay for his muffin. No dice. Cops came and took him away.

[Hello_Kitty]

180. Kudos to you. And you're right

About the embrace of violence to solve problems. If I hear one more 'tough guy' opine how 'we should just bomb the shit out of the Middle East and turn it into glass' I am going to scream.

[LostinVA]

216. That is 100% illegal in most states -- I am appalled by this

In Many, if not most states, this is illegal! Only police can detain a shoplifter; in some states, a licensed security guard/loss prevention person also can. I have managed stores in both NC and VA, and our asses would have been sued, and we would also have been arrested for doing this. I actually agree with this -- too many cops are gung-ho enough, but you don't need your average person thinking they're Elliot Ness.

And no, I'm not sticking up for the shoplifter. I just said I managed two stores -- big box bookstores. I know how bad shoplifters are.

[SouthernDem2004]

233. I think you are confusing company policy with the law.

They probably told you that but it is not the case. Some states restrict citizens arrest to only felonys. I am not aware of a state that does not allow citizens arrests. Might be a few but it is certainly not the majority.

The NC statute: http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_15A/GS_15A-404.html

It is allowed in Virgina under common law.

You certainly open yourself up to civil litigation if you have insufficient probable cause. What people need to ask themselves is it worth possible injury, death or the risk of being sued? The Police have legal protections that a citizen does not. You always have to ask yourself if it is worth the trouble.

[LostinVA]

241. No, we were told by the DA's office and the Police Department

That it was illegal. This has been a few years ago (actually, almost eight in NC). We did this because our Regional VP was talking about training certain employees as loss prevention, and we were legally not allowed to do it.

[SouthernDem2004]

258. Well, I gave you the actual statute from NC. All I can do.

[LostinVA]

243. I just read the statutes

And double checked some lawyer commentary to make sure I was right! You can only legally detain someone (make a citizen's arrest) IF a law enforcement officer requests you to do so (15A-405) and if it meets the criteria in 15A-404.

edited to include Virginia law: There is no VA statute that allows citizen's arrest, although VA courts recognize that right from English Common Law. However, strict parameters have to be observed, and someone can only be detained if a felony has been committed. I just called the bookstore I was working at, because they said we would be fired if we detained someone, and likely sued and/or arrested. I'm not trying to argue, I was just wanting to make sure I hadn't been lied to all of these years. He told me stealing a few books would not be a felony, and that VA courts have not upheld citizen's arrests where they deem too much force has been used to detain someone.

[SouthernDem2004]

259. Reply:

Your first paragraph is incorrect. You are referring to a seperate statute that deals with LE requesting help from citizens.

I think I know what article you might be reading: http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/!apr97.htm

Read the last section of the article. His contention is that NC allows citizen detentions and not citizens arrest. He is correct but for the most part they are the same thing. They both allow store clerks to catch shoplifters.

[LostinVA]

265. No, it's in the statutes

You can only do what's in 15A-404 if the you meet the circumstances in 15A-405. I also just found my old manager's handbook (Goddess I gotta throw some junk away), and it states it is against NC law for us to detain anyone. Not fighting with you SD, I swear! I managed a chain bookstore for 4 1/2 years, and we were told this by Corporate, the DA, and the PD.

[In_The_Wind]

217. I totally agree with your reactions and your actions.

Sadly - people do need to be reminded about compassion.

One voice speaking out against man's inhumanity to man can still start a ripple effect for change.

:applause:

Peace Now !

[Bridget Burke]

231. Good for you.

This sounds like a job for store security. Every store I visit in Houston has a guard--partly to keep an eye on the parking lot & prevent actual violent crime against customers. One hopes they would be able to deal with shoplifters better than hormonal teenagers.

Perhaps the clerks should quit their unsatisfying jobs & expend some of that hostility in service to their country. That route is also open to older Americans--especially those who boast of being EMT's.

[bdot]

238. I have to side with the store.

It's nice to see the people in the store actually go out and stop the lady. Most places are too afraid of lawsuits to do anything. At least they stopped her.

[BearClaws]

244. If this lady...

had broken into your house and stolen your own belongings and the neighbors had detained her for the police, would you be so upset?
I have worked in a grocery store for 27 years.
The security cameras are more for watching the employees than to stop shoplifters.
I have run down shoplifters myself.
I do get bothered by thieves.
I have to get up at 4 am and bust my ass to make a living and these shoplifters can come in and think that we owe them something?
I know it isn't real compassionate to think this way.
It is just business.
It is just the law.
If the lady stole something RACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!
ENOUGH with the constant haranguing of the race card.
Yes it exists, yes it is horrible.
But not everything boils down to a race issue.
I'm with the store with this one.

[paineinthearse]

248. You two have missed the entire point of the post

The writer does not condone shoplifting, it is about the store's over-reaction and use of excessive force.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

256. Punishism usually begets black-and-white reasoning. (nt)

[LisaL]

261. What is over-reaction? If she stole your wallet, and

was running away with it, and some people stopped her, I guess you would be screaming they should let her go, cause she needs her dignity?
I bet the reaction of most people here would be a little different if it was their own money she stole. It always so easy to say-the hell with other people's money.

[paineinthearse]

247. Your story deserves wider attention

Have you considered submitting it to your city's INDYMEDIA website?

[Dora]

251. Thank you for a great post.

Truly thoughtful and thought provoking.

[Name removed]

260. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donheld]

262. I applaud your efforts

Looks like this woman was tried and convicted right there at the store. 6 clerks were the jury judge and executioner. You did the right thing.