Bush says "FDR committed one of the greatest wrongs of history".

[LostInAnomie]

RIGA, Latvia - Second-guessing Franklin D. Roosevelt, President Bush said Saturday the United States played a role in Europe's painful division after World War II — a decision that helped cause "one of the greatest wrongs of history" when the Soviet Union imposed its harsh rule across Central and Eastern Europe.

"We will not repeat the mistakes of other generations, appeasing or excusing tyranny, and sacrificing freedom in the vain pursuit of stability," the president said. "We have learned our lesson; no one's liberty is expendable. In the long run, our security and true stability depend on the freedom of others."

"Certainly it goes further than any president has gone," historian Alan Brinkley said from the U.S. "This has been a very common view of the far right for many years — that Yalta was a betrayal of freedom, that Roosevelt betrayed the hopes of generations."

Bush said the Yalta agreement, also signed by Britain's Winston Churchill and the Soviet Union's Joseph Stalin, followed in the "unjust tradition" of other infamous war pacts that carved up the continent and left millions in oppression. The Yalta accord gave Stalin control of the whole of Eastern Europe, leading to criticism that Roosevelt had delivered millions of people to communist domination.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050508/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
----------------------------------------------------------

Fuck that son of a bitch. That fucking hypocritical murderous scum isn't worthy of mentioning FDR's name.

[Bluebear]

1. This seems to be the newest RW plan, paint Roosevelt as evil

Maybe Social Security and the other "social programs" they detest so much will be easier to eradicate once they mark FDR as someone who made a lot of "mistakes".

[spindoctor]

5. That is no doubt what this is leading up to

Typical Rovian framing. First you demonize everything associated with the subject, then you rename the subject into something ugly. By that time you will get all the support you need to sunset it.

blah.

[TwentyFive]

16. That's why the Democrats can't let this stand.

Now is the perfect opportunity for the Democrats to compare FDR to Bush. Bush started it, so let the Dems finish it. Who did more for promoting freedom, the middle class, and America's standing in the world?

[oldtime dfl_er]

22. it's fukking transparent

and ugly. These people are the epitome of cynicism. They would throw their own mothers to the wolves if it helped their agenda.

www.cafepress.com/showtheworld

[Maat]

2. That yahoo wouldn't have been fit to shine FDR's shoes.

The nerve.

It is better then to invade and occupy countries that are no imminent threat so that we can built military bases close to their oil reserves?

Shameful!

[Placebo]

3. FDR vs. GWB

America, you decide.

I know who the real leader is.

[DustMolecule]

4. I don't believe that * can properly pronouce the names of the participants

nor point out where Yalta is on a map (much less understand the agreement or the dynamics behind it).

He's just out there doing what America does best these days (in absence of any substance) - marketing ~ selling the spin.

[lady lib]

13. Really. How much you wanna bet

that prior to 2000 he didn't even know the difference between FDR and Teddy Roosevelt. He just spits out whatever his speech writers write for him.

[DustMolecule]

23. You know I wouldn't want to take a bet like that.....

When you say prior to 2000 he didn't know the difference between FDR and Teddy Roosevelt.....

....you don't really think/believe he knows the difference NOW, do you???

[lady lib]

26. (big grin)

Well, learning about them is hard work.
:D

[DustMolecule]

30. Tis true....lotsa hard work

ya woulda thunk he'da figured it all out afore he became all presidential-atin and ever'thang.

History is important and all....



( ;-) g'nite and best regards)

[pinniped]

53. That POS still thinks FDR was part of the "Rough Riders."

.

[Democat]

6. While Democrats praise Reagan because they don't want to offend anyone

Republicans keep their eye on their goals and take risks. Democrats kiss ass and wimp out when they have the majority of Americans on their side.

It's pathetic.

[Conservativesux]

8. So why do you stay in the Dem party if you think its so worthless?

[spindoctor]

15. Yeah!

If you don't like it, get the hell out of this country!

:eyes:

[Democat]

19. Because the current batch of elected Democrats are the problem

If I can help get rid of the current wimps in our party, I will. I would like to see any of them that aren't willing to fight for us voted out as soon as possible and I will work toward that goal.

We can have new elected Democrats in the next few decades that will replace the outgoing crop of losers with real fighting Democrats.

If you don't think there is a problem with the Republican ass kissing cowards that have been running our party, you haven't been paying attention.

[TwentyFive]

18. Only thing positive about Reagan is that he had a Democratic Congress to..

stop him from making a total ass of himself. I shudder to think that with a republican congress, Robert Bork would be sitting on the Supreme Court right now.

[gulfcoastliberal]

27. Bullseye

Ain't that the truth!! They are a bunch of unprincipled, spinless, sellout wimps. Such extensive corruption is the hallmark of a society in steep decline.

[Democat]

29. We need leadership willing to fight no matter what the cost

It's going to take quite a few elections to rebuild the Democratic Party, but that's our only hope.

Who knows, maybe a leader will appear out of nowhere and surprise us all while we're slowly working to bring in the next generation of Democrats.

[gulfcoastliberal]

37. Amen

NT

[GetTheRightVote]

7. * hates FDR due to the fact that he find out about Grand-dad nazi

relationships and stopped them cold, and brought down the Union Bank which was used to tunnel money to the Nazis from Prescott. I read this in some history paper a little while ago. The * hate FDR and all he stood for, shared responiblity by all, such as Social Security.

You are right not good enough to even state his initials.

:kick:

[TwentyFive]

9. WORST president in HISTORY criticizes guy who defeated NAZISM! WTF?

This is amazing. Bush the dud plays Monday morning quarterback against the man who ended the Great Depression, ended Nazism, alleviated Old Age poverty?!?

Bush compensates for his lack of intelligence and morality, with outrageous temerity.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[raysr]

10. Beat up

on FDR month,the History Channel did it too. Must be to put down the importance and success of Social Security.

[dsc]

11. I thought the History Channel did a good job

They showed both the good and the bad. How anyone could come away from that movie with a negative impression of FDR is beyond me. He literally gave his life for his country.

[LTR]

39. Wanna see something GOOD about FDR?

Check out "Warm Springs" on HBO this month. The movie is about FDR's Georgia retreat, which catered mostly to polio victims. Very heartwarming.

[dsc]

47. excellent film

It covers a little known piece of his life and does so beautifully.

[HeeBGBz]

43. Just when you think he can't piss you off any more...

He opens his vile hole and spews more excrement.

STFU GWB!

[WindRavenX]

12. holy shit

:wow:

[mikedevilsfan]

14. What would GWB do?

I wonder what Bush would have done during the oppression?
Can you imagine him giving a speech to starving Americans.

"We , we just gotta give more money to the buisnesses. If your hun-gary set aside a bank accoun marked food. Grow corn. corn is good. Fuel is good."
Probably would have been shot after the corn remark.
Michael

[TwentyFive]

24. If we had a depression in '05, Bush would say he doesn't have a magic wand

Then he would blame Clinton and crack a some kind of joke that America is too fat, and the lack a food is actually good for us.

Of course, if it got too bad, he would recommend going to a fundamentalist church where you might get a hot meal....and hear some encouraging words about repenting of your sinful ways.

[LTR]

40. Bush would have been worse than Hoover

At least Hoover was a fairly decent man, albeit in the wrong job.

Bush would just have the propaganda brigade (Rush, Hannity, etc.) working overtime.

Just remember that modern conservatism has it's roots in Calvin Coolidge's conservative philosophy, which likely led up to the Depression. Reagan even hung Coolidge's portrait in the cabinet room.

[fudge stripe cookays]

67. Hoover wasn't as bad, but no decent man...

calls out the army to shoot former soldiers. The men were desperate to feed their families and eke out a living in the midst of the most horrible poverty this country has known (yet).

I just found out about the event a year or so ago. I never had any affection for Hoover before, but he was a typical Republican, figuring the market would repair itself when people were utterly destitute.

Having MacArthur shoot the Bonus Marchers was just the frosting on the cake.

FSC

[Conservativesux]

17. In the long run, our security and true stability depend on the freedom of

others?

Gee, I wonder why the US has supported and continues to support evil dictators, who oppress thier citizens, as long as they _bend_ the way "US" wants them to?

Oh, thats right; little boy * doesnt bother to read.

My bad! :spank:

[GirlinContempt]

20. ooooh good

More groundwork for an assault on leftist/socialist governments *sigh*

[NickB79]

21. If it weren't for the Soviet Union, we would have never defeated the Nazis

The Eastern Front that the Russians engaged was the back of the German Army. If we would not have supported the Russians at that time, the Germans would have kicked the Russian Army back to Siberia. Without the Russians taking the bullets to the east, OUR soldiers would have taken them at Normandy. Without the Soviets, the war would have stretched on many years after 1945. Most likely we would have resorted to a few atomic bombs ala Hiroshima to break the Germans will to fight.

[expatriot]

25. Bush is really taking this neocon thing too far...

There were many back then who were obsessed with the idea of keeping the 'free world' mobilized after World War II and driving onto Moscow and assisting Chiang Kai Shek in wiping out Mao which would have been global conquest by the Anglo-American multinational global corporato-sphere. Militarily we probably could have done it. Russia was so very bloodied in their nearly four year long death grip with Germany that although fully mobilized, they would have broken. This is the neocon "what if" wet dream.

[TheFarseer]

35. in no way would it have been smart to take on Russia

They had an army MUCH larger than ours by 1945. They had much better tanks. Our tanks were garbage compared to theirs. We had air superiority going for us and A-bombs coming up in a few months but it would have taken a huge effort to keep from losing all of Germany, France and everything else. Who knows how it would have played out, but victory was far from certain.

[Jim Lane]

50. Facing facts about Eastern Europe

I think it was Shirer who wrote, "Eastern Europe was not given away at Yalta. It was given away at Munich."

The effect of the Munich agreement was to devastate the ability of the smaller states of Eastern Europe to defend themselves. Once the Western allies made that mistake (without even consulting Stalin, who had been calling for a collective response to the Nazi threat), there was no way for a free and independent Eastern Europe to emerge from the war. Those countries were caught between Germany and Russia. One or the other of those powers would prevail and would occupy them.

By the time of Yalta, the fruits of Munich were visible. The Red Army occupied much of Eastern Europe and was pushing the Wehrmacht west. The Western allies were on the other side of Germany. Farseer is precisely right that there was no realistic alternative. After the bloodiest war in human history, we finally smash through the German lines, link up with our Soviet allies... and then tell the exhausted populations of the West that we were now going to attack those very allies? tell them that the drive to the Elbe wasn't enough trouble, we were now headed for the Vistula, against a much tougher foe? Madness.

To be fair to Bush, he probably doesn't really believe this. As others have noted in this thread, he just wanted to take a potshot at FDR and play to the American ethnic communities.

[MisterP]

66. it's ALWAYS about the enemies: that's why the end of the Cold War

didn't mean anything: no peace dividend, do not pass go. Instead of "Kommeenists," like my dearest Gropenführer wails, it's now "terrsts."

[Chomskyite]

28. The alternative to the Yalta deal . . .

. . . was war with a Soviet army that had us outmanned two to one. It would have been sheer lunacy. But Bush doesn't know what he's talking about as usual.

[LostInAnomie]

32. No joke, what would that idiot have had us do...

... put the Pacific front on the back burner while we invade our ally's country. A country that had proven earlier that it would be almost impossible to take.

Sure, why not? Why not just throw a few more million of the poor at an unbeatable foe to push our ideals? What would it matter to him, his grand-pappy was rich?

[JDPriestly]

41. Let's fight this with the truth --

Bush must be very worried. His foreign policy mistakes have diminished the US in the eyes of Europeans and others in the world. Our intelligence community, which could not prevent 9/11, and our military, which is overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan, are not viewed as the deterrents or protectors they were before Bush took office. Putin is taking advantage of Bush's weakness by courting Europeans and claiming the moral high ground. Never since WWII has a Russian leader been able to credibly challenge America from a moral standpoint. That anyone listens to Putin at all indicates a decline in respect for the US, and it is Bush's (and Condoleeza Rice's) fault. Bush can't blame Clinton for this, so he is blaming FDR -- and he is relying on the ignorance of Americans about history to pull it off.

The fact is, although some Americans don't realize it, we did not win WWII on our own. We relied on our allies, primarily the USSR and Great Britain. Remember, the Germans attacked the British from the air and the Russians and east Europeans also on the ground. We suffered many military casualties, but the Soviets and the British took the brunt of the war. The Yalta Agreement was a compromise to ensure that the allies would not continue fighting -- among st themselves -- after the war.

The Yalta Conference took place in February 1945. At that time, allied victory was likely but not yet certain. The Russians surrounded Budapest on Christmas Eve in 1944 and, within just two weeks had advanced 220 miles to arrive, on January 27, 1945 to within 100 miles of the big prize, Berlin. William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, pp. 1095-1097.

The Yalta Agreement was signed not just by Roosevelt and Stalin, but also by Churchill. Notice, there were two westerners to one Soviet. Roosevelt was near death (died two months later, April 12, 1945). Churchill was a healthy man and no wimp in anyone's eyes. All three men knew how war weary the world was. All three knew that the resources of their peoples and their armies were reaching their limits. All three knew that the war against Japan was not over and would be difficult to fight to the end. All three knew that their alliance was not an easy one and that it had been forged in the face of a common enemy, not out of any other common purpose.

Here are the facts on the Yalta Agreement:

An early section of the Yalta Agreement established the infant United Nations and determined that the organizational meeting would be held in the U.S. -- a provision that gave the U.S. a great advantage in post WWII international affairs.

Here is the text of the Agreement with regard to the
II. DECLARATION OF LIBERATED EUROPE

The following declaration has been approved:

The Premier of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the President of the United States of America have consulted with each other in the common interests of the people of their countries and those of liberated Europe. They jointly declare their mutual agreement to concert during the temporary period of instability in liberated Europe the policies of their three Governments in assisting the peoples liberated from the domination of Nazi Germany and the peoples of the former Axis satellite states of Europe to solve by democratic means their pressing political and economic problems.

The establishment of order in Europe and the rebuilding of national economic life must be achieved by processes which will enable the liberated peoples to destroy the last vestiges of Nazism and fascism and to create democratic institutions of their own choice. This is a principle of the Atlantic Charter - the right of all people to choose the form of government under which they will live - the restoration of sovereign rights and self-government to those peoples who have been forcibly deprived to them by the aggressor nations.

To foster the conditions in which the liberated people may exercise these rights, the three governments will jointly assist the people in any European liberated state or former Axis state in Europe where, in their judgment conditions require, (a) to establish conditions of internal peace; (b) to carry out emergency relief measures for the relief of distressed peoples; (c) to form interim governmental authorities broadly representative of all democratic elements in the population and pledged to the earliest possible establishment through free elections of Governments responsive to the will of the people; and (d) to facilitate where necessary the holding of such elections.

The three Governments will consult the other United Nations and provisional authorities or other Governments in Europe when matters of direct interest to them are under consideration.

When, in the opinion of the three Governments, conditions in any European liberated state or former Axis satellite in Europe make such action necessary, they will immediately consult together on the measure necessary to discharge the joint responsibilities set forth in this declaration.

By this declaration we reaffirm our faith in the principles of the Atlantic Charter, our pledge in the Declaration by the United Nations and our determination to build in cooperation with other peace-loving nations world order, under law, dedicated to peace, security, freedom and general well-being of all mankind.

In issuing this declaration, the three powers express the hope that the Provisional Government of the French Republic may be associated with them in the procedure suggested.



Temporary agreements were reached with regard to various countries such as the division of Germany, France, Poland (all three major issues), Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc. Iran was put on hold.

The big problem was how to ensure unity in the ongoing fight against Japan. At the time, any one of the three allies, USSR, Britain or the U.S. could have made a deal with Japan and left the other one or two countries alone to fight on in Asia.

Here is the agreement reached on Japan:

AGREEMENT REGARDING JAPAN

The leaders of the three great powers - the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain - have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that:

1. The status quo in Outer Mongolia (the Mongolian People's Republic) shall be preserved.

2. The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.:

(a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands adjacent to it shall be returned to the Soviet Union;

(b) The commercial port of Dairen shall be internationalized, the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union in this port being safeguarded, and the lease of Port Arthur as a naval base of the U.S.S.R. restored;

(c) The Chinese-Eastern Railroad and the South Manchurian Railroad, which provide an outlet to Dairen, shall be jointly operated by the establishment of a joint Soviet-Chinese company, it being understood that the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union shall be safeguarded and that China shall retain sovereignty in Manchuria;

3. The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.

It is understood that the agreement concerning Outer Mongolia and the ports and railroads referred to above will require concurrence of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. The President will take measures in order to maintain this concurrence on advice from Marshal Stalin.

The heads of the three great powers have agreed that these claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled after Japan has been defeated.

For its part, the Soviet Union expresses it readiness to conclude with the National Government of China a pact of friendship and alliance between the U.S.S.R. and China in order to render assistance to China with its armed forces for the purpose of liberating China from the Japanese yoke.

Joseph Stalin Franklin d. Roosevelt Winston S. Churchill

February 11, 1945.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1945YALTA.html (public domain document)

See also http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/yalta.htm (additional sections of the agreement)

As we now know, the US dominated in the reorganization of post-war Japan and Western and Southern Europe, while the USSR dominated the reorganization of Eastern Europe.

An important historical fact that is often forgotten is the competing claims of Bulgaria and Greece for certain territories after the war. The U.S. was heavily involved in supporting Greece in its struggle over that territory after the war.

The fate of Eastern Europe was tragic, but, remember, the Russian Army had already passed through it and established a foothold there before the Yalta Agreement was signed. The fact is, we didn't do badly at Yalta in many respects. Based on the Yalta Agreement and good diplomacy -- with the exceptions of Johnson and Nixon due to the Viet Nam War and the Bush administration due to Iraq. The July 2002 memo that was released during the British election campaign is going to damage Bush's reputation even more. This is a sad time for the US.

Bush's lashing out at FDR is simply a desperate attempt to distract the attention of the public from his own failed policies. It won't work. We need to constantly return our attention to the real issues of the day -- Bush's corruption, dishonesty and poor judgment.

[TheFarseer]

31. What in the heck was he supposed to do?

Stalin was determined to have the eastern block. It would have taken another war possibley as big as WWII itself to stop him and possibly involving Atomic devices on both sides. Were we mentaly prepared for that in May 1945? Absolutely not. It simply could not have happened.

[EFerrari]

33. What? His handlers let him talk AGAIN?

The Republican Supreme Court delivered us to fascist domination in 2000. And we don't forget that, approve it or submit to it.


Take that, BFEE.

[LTR]

34. Bush isn't good enough to kiss FDR's ass

FDR is one of the greatest presidents in American history. He ended the Great Depression, developed social programs that continue to this day, and helped end tyrannical imperialism on both ends of the world. Not to mention he was a great philanthropist (did great things in regard to helping the handicapped. Hell, FDR did all of this while being wheelchair bound! He let nothing stop him!

What did Dumbya do? Record deficits, corrupt administration, dismantling of social programs, and pissing off the world enough that terrorism continues to spread. The only people Bush helped were corporate fatcats like Ken Lay. And Dumbya can't even overcome being a simple-minded moron.

Bush will never be even an eighth of the man FDR was.

[Wolf1728]

36. Just Like Dubya Helped the South Vietnamese?

Oh yeah - he's a true believer in freedom.
Why didn't he help South Vietnam in their struggle against the Vietcong?
Typical conservative right-wing bullshitter.
Dubya IS the worst President.

[Ladyhawk]

38. Bush IS one of the greatest wrongs in history. n/t

[opihimoimoi]

42. President Abberation himself.....Mr Bush would do well if he just STFU

[Domitan]

44. Many neocons admire FDR, so this is ironic

Just look at Conrad Black's biography of FDR. I just wonder if that blunt and fatuous critique of FDR will go well over in the neocon's pit of vipers.

[orpupilofnature57]

45. Shrub wouldn't make a pimple on F.D.R 's ass! Ignorance & oppresion...

Is the only thing S*.*b and pa pa have going for them.

[Disturbed]

46. W has also insulted Winston Churchill.

W is a sock puppet that recites what is written for him. There is no doubt that he does not understand what the hell he is spouting. Amerikans should hang their heads in shame that this Silverspoon Sociopath is representing the nation.

[orpupilofnature57]

48. You got it! No kkkarl ,no Shrub! *.*

[mopaul]

49. Fuck Dubya Roundly

[Zynx]

51. Oh fuck you George.

That is some wonderful revisionism if I have ever seen it. First of all, there is nothing we could have done to stop the Soviets from taking Eastern Europe. Secondly, we needed them to fight Japan it was thought at that time. We did not know how close we were to getting the atomic bomb or if it would cause their surrender so we felt we needed Russian troops.

[warrior1]

52. Why is he doing this

does he know how many people died in this war and that FDR was a hero to many many people?

[Solly Mack]

54. This has long been a right wing goal. To destroy the image of FDR

It wasn't just the New Deal they wanted to eliminate. They have to eliminate the memory of FDR as well. Otherwise, people will forever link the two as good...when they remember their history.

[Jack Rabbit]

55. Appeasing tyranny

Tony Blair was chastised by British voters last week for appeasing a tyrant.

[Octafish]

56. Yalta bad. FDR bad. Social Security bad.

Bush's second "term."

[indepat]

57. Stalin, after 20,000,000+ deaths, was going to do what he did, Yalta or no

Yalta and no one was going to stop him without suffering millions of casualties.

[depakid]

58. Um- it was the Republicans

who were the isolationists and appeasers....

But since Americans are TOO STUPID to read history and the corporate meida is TOO COWARDLY to call that sociopath and his cadres liars- most people will never know.

[Geek_Girl]

59. I think the news story has been moved

I couldn't find any reference to the Yalta agreement.

[LostInAnomie]

64. Here is a link with the majority of the story.

http://www.thedailytimes.com/sited/story/html/206399

God I hate that Monday morning quarter-backing son of a bitch. He thinks he can just revise history to suit his twisted ideology no matter the the occasion.

[One_Life_To_Give]

61. Pointing out the Spec in FDR's eye?

While ignoring the clearcut in his own! Mighty christian of him!

[im10ashus]

62. I guess they've finally run out of living Dems to 'swift-boat'

Now they're going after the dead? WTF? * WISHES he could be FDR!

[LuPeRcALiO]

63. bring back the breadlines

we've been liberated!

:sarcasm:

[La Coliniere]

65. Voting the.....

chimp into office was also one of the greatest wrongs in American history. Let's just hope it doesn't take as long to undo this "wrong" and his party's right wing legacy as it did to get rid of Stalin's Europe. If it does, it's gonna be one long dark night, fellow patriots. The chimp's remarks are "what I like to call historical revisionism". Remember, just last year they wanted to take FDR's image off of the dime and replace it with the ketchup is a vegetable man.

[jmowreader]

68. Bush is right--he's not going to repeat the mistakes of other generations

He's going to make All New Ones.



The man on your right, Bush's left, is one of the worst tyrants currently operating. His name is Prince Bandar, and he runs Saudi Arabia.



This is Ahmad Chalabi, Bushco's choice to run Iraq. He's no prince either.

I didn't look for a picture of his good friend Vladimir Putin, the tyrant running Russia, but it wouldn't be hard to find one.

The problem here isn't that Bush is benignly neglecting a dictator who runs off and enslaves half the world...it's that Bush is actively pursuing friendships and alliances with some truly rotten individuals.